CASA part 66 feedback meeting

[MR WOBBLES]

How did the feedback meeting go tonight at Bankstown, Hows the future look.

[walschaert valve]

I went on Tuesday night, I guess there was about 130 people in attendance.

A lot of questions unanswered, especially if you had one relating to return to service of GA aircraft because (in my opinion) most of the questions to the panel were from avionics guys from the airlines. It seems there are some issues for those guys relating to the electrical catagory and LRU changing on airframe/powerplant B licences.

There was only an hour for questions which wasn't enough, but to be fair the panel remained afterwards to respond to individuals. I don't know how many stayed on, I didn't. It was descending into a bit of a shouting match, not very dignified.

[Wunwing]

I went last night. About 200 there.Again the Avionics guys had problems and CASA couldn't give answers. Basically Mech guys are getting rights into avionics but avionics are getting nothing the other way and are loosing oxygen.

Prior to the meeting a friend said to me, after this comes in you wouldn't want to be avionics.At the time I thought that he was exagerating, but he wasn't.

Also, they have created a way for Aeronautical Engineers to hold C licences, but again no way for Electronic Degree guys to hold a C license. I suspect that a career path to foreman for a LAME in an airline is now dead. HR types have always had a problem of LAMEs not having a degree, so now that they can replace them, they will.

CASA appear to have stopped private study licenses and you will have to go to an approved training organisation. The industrial implications of this are obvious if you are in airlines. When asked what protection LAMEs had over career paths when asked to sign out suspect aircraft, we got a lecture on the obligations of a LAME.When recent events were mentioned from the floor, CASA didn't comment.

Where GA and Limited Cat goes from here is still in question.We were told that MAs will be rolled into licenses, but in Limited Category we can't get the time up to get a license.

At the beginning we were told that no one will be worse off, but over the night a number found that they would indeed by worse off and loose a number of priviledges that they currently hold.

In summary a well run meeting by CASA but for us Avionics types, the message is well beyond disappointing.Basically CASA has "shafted" us.We now have very limited promotional prospects and even more limited work areas.

Wunwing

[Kulwin Park]

I am unable to make any of the nights due work commitments, but please keep posting the feedback, as I was unaware of the Avionics dilemma's.

I personally disagree with Mechanical LAME's getting higher privelges in regards to electrical issues, but only if it relates to their specific aircraft they are signing out. For example, a Starter Generator or a control box for a fuel or engine problem should not be just limited to an E&I guy cause it has a cannon plug on it. LAME's are trained in type courses for that product, so hopefully the new 66 system allows greater range for LAME's to sign defects off like this?

Cheers, KP

[fruitloop]

Looks like the mechanical guy isn't allowed to certify for changing a Brake change any more..(unless he is full B1) The temp senser is a Issue and for the guys with A330 Forget certifying for a wheel change (again unless you are full B1 and not with restrictions) TPIS is a issue..I guess the original "proof reading" wasn't that good...Mechanical and Avionic guys are both under the pump !!

[Connaught]

i have worked under the 'easa' system, in Canada which had the system when EASA was the JAA

it works well, there are still places for Avionics types,

lets be honest gentlemen, how many airframe/engine guys can EFFECTIVELY read a wiring diagram, i sure as hell can't, and i've been at it for 20 years, that being said it REALLY ****s me off that a pilot can change a lightbulb and i can't,

lets look at this realistically, a great many systems on aircraft today are electro-mechanical in nature, i know there are electrically controlled/pneumatically operated valves in Air condition systems, and not to mention the classic old solenoid valve in most other systems, what about electric fuel or hydraulic pumps, and those black boxes on engines, and the sensors that go with them, (most engine run like **** when they break), and then that box starts operating mechanical valves, motors and all the other stuff that goes with it

most maintenance ppl need to know and understand how a COMPLETE system works to effectively troubleshoot and repair it, don't feed me the **** that only a conehead can touch something with wires on it, it is SERIOUSLY time this country comes out of the dark ages

as for out on line when a radio head craps out, we can change it, call someone and if it works, great, away the aircraft goes, if it doesn't work - well the avionics guys will have to figure it out

on a side note Canada introduced a structures license as the same time, (those guys can do some really big repairs that make me look on in wonderment)

for GA, i don't see how it will change the way you guys go about you work, cept for AMO manuals etc etc

if anyone is offended by my comments it might be time for you to retire

[Wunwing]

The way I see it Connaught is that the Avionics categories after being treated as a sub race in the 50s and 60s have recently been treated as equals with the mechanical trades. These rule changes alter the balance and take away some of their current priviledges.

In the new world where training and apprenticeships have to be paid for, why would anyone go into Avionics or stay in Avionics with a now very limited career path. Much better to start somewhere else, ie IT or mining where you are respected than spend a career being treated a 2nd class category.

As far as trouble shooting.I suspect the biggest problem in trouble shooting a complex electronic problem with the new approach is that it is very easy to initially mask the real problem with an LRU change.A little bit of knowledge is sometimes dangerous.

Wunwing

[aveng]

As an avionics Lame with a considerable amount of experience I find the grandfathered right of Mech Lames rights to sign daily inspections on all types hypocracy. A newly licenced snot nose can sign an overnight check on all systems and can still ask where the QAR is because they weren't taught anything about it on course. That said good luck to all working out were we all sit it the new world. Just a piece of advice - KNOW YOUR PERSONAL LIMITATIONS. If you have an electrical snag and dont know what your doing -ASK.

[fruitloop]

Wunwing
Yes they may have lost Oxygen but now are on their own with ATA73 (FADEC). I really want to see a Avionics guy change either a FMU or a HCU..
Interesting times ahead..
aveng
Very good advice there about knowing your own limitations..

After reading all 101 pages of the part 66 draft (inplementation date 27/06/11) and signed off by the minister of Transport..It looks like there are going to be some "Interesting" times ahead.

[Wunwing]

fruitloop.
I totally agree.
Perhaps the Minister didn't know his own limitations?
Wunwing

[Connaught]

wunwing, aveng et all i do apologize for sounding flippant, it was not the actual intent

as stated i have worked under Easa type regulatory framework, and as bad as this sounds for the avionics types, it isn't, as you know the aircraft are still incredibly complex and no one can possible know all systems, hence the company i was working for still employed avionics types on the line, and in heavy, and these guys still took care of all the defects and scheduled component changes, mostly due to us airframe/engine guys being too busy doing the scheduled maintenance and defects on the rest of the aircraft

while i had/have avionics priveldges on my canadian license, i am by no means an expert, never pretended to be (i think) it does mean that those 'grey' areas like my engine control units that have canon plugs on them i can change, or i can certify for cleaning and reapplying contact enhancer on a pw100 engine harness, which previously has been on the limits of being 'outside' the scope of my license

hope this clears up my position

Conn

[spanner90]

I've been looking at the proposals, changes to proposals, and changes to changes, for the last three+ years. The bottom line from my discussions with MPL is that nobody is going to lose privileges (Oxygen?), and until you complete training to remove Exclusions, nobody is going to gain privileges. Even after all this time, I can't understand how some of this is going to work!
Until you, and I, start receiving draft Part 66 licences, it's still a guessing game.
Yes I work for a Part 147 training school, so I have an agenda. But I'm looking forward to the implementation, even if I do have an E,I & R licence!:confused:

Spanner

[fruitloop]

Spanner.....I would suggest that you have a talk with your local CASA rep as soon as possible....It appears that Instructors won't have the necessary time on "spanners" to maintain their A,B1 and B2 Licences.The new Licence is "perpetual"with the old clause of 6 months in 2 years still there..my understanding (I could be wrong) is that if you are not exercising your "priveledges" you don't/won't need them..(the get out of Jail free card is once you can prove you have done 100 days.?.. it may/can be re-installed)
"A" licences... Hot issue...""WORST SENARIO"" It appears that now a Third Year apprentice (provided he/she is 21 years old)can be issued them and certify a RTS (return to service,transit authority etc.etc)Sort of makes a mockery of Type training and opens the doors to companies to take advantage of wages....If I may use a Quote mentioned...".Hands the Keys to Hell to the Devil."

[spanner90]

Fruitloop, yes you are right about the instructor bit. I believe the only exception is if you have been licenced for 10 years prior to becoming an instructor. I have been aware of this requirement for some time, and have taken steps to cover it. I spend waaaay too much time away from my desk (means more work at home in the evening:sad:), and swing spanners as a contractor who operates a fleet of helicopters nearby. I'm also responsible for all E,I & R work on our company aircraft. So I think I've got it covered!
The over-riding factor with A licences is that without a company authorisation, an A licence holder can do nothing. I know you'll say that an unscrupulous operator will simply authorise everything, but the Part 145 AMO does have a Responsible (hopefully) Manager, who is meant to manage these things.
I'm still waiting to receive my draft Part 66 licence, has anybody got theirs yet? I'm interested to see what sort of exclusions are common.

Spanner

[Hasherucf]

Went to the Perth meeting . Seems the presenters didn't know the subject well, especially how part66 interacted with part 145 and 147. Seems most questions went unanswered or part answers . In some cases reply's were met with personal view points of the presenters. After the show I asked some questions which couldnt be answered . After that I email the questions I had to CASA but still haven't recieved a reply :ugh:

Certainly left me with more questions than answers

[Ngineer]

Just a piece of advice - KNOW YOUR PERSONAL LIMITATIONS. If you have an electrical snag and dont know what your doing -ASK.

Wise words Aveng. Unfortunately in this industry there are a few "know it all's" that will rush into things like a bull at a gate. Understanding your technical limitations comes with experience, and this new system grants privileges to the inexperienced - a catch 22 situation.

This system was rushed in to apply a cheap fix to the growing shortage of LAE's.

[fruitloop]

WooHoo....Just recieved my Draft of the new Licence...Looks like I've been given a few "NEW" licences...Its amazing how omiting to have a few letters (namely E1) on a aircraft type can be so easy...What does a JT9D look like ??How about a PW4000 ?? I've never worked on either but now have the Licence..I wonder how many people "WON"T" tell CASA about their "Mistake" !!
How many havn't recieved their "Draft" yet..??Insufficent time to challenge or report the mistake...Now Just have to ask about the Pay rise with my employer !!....Better wait till the new licence turns up...

[Widewoodenwingswork]

I couldn't have put it better myself. CASA have engineered a solution for at least 20 years of neglect to the LAME system. Instead of updating the antiquated exam questions and encouraging AME's to get licenced, they did nothing for 3 decades.

If they keep QANTAS happy with Part 66, they keep aircraft maintenance out of the public eye. It's purely a system designed for large airlines to get people licenced. Grrr.

[Wunwing]

Anyone out here been to the later meetings? How did they go and any new info?

Wunwing

[Hasherucf]

Still have not had a reply from CASA I sent about 3 weeks ago. All I want to know is what exams with have to do under the old system to remove restrictions under the new part 66 B1 Electrical licence. Also if I should I keep a logbook ..... or do I just need to do the theory component?

[fruitloop]

Hasherucf
Did your really expect a reply soon ?? Have sighted a few other drafts that are "different" to what people expected..extra's included..

[Hasherucf]

It's simple fruitloop. In regards to my question THEY DON'T KNOW . But they aren't going to admit that

[fruitloop]

Hasherucf
Yep are correct in that asumption...At the meeting I was at they even disagreed amounst themselves..so wern't able to answer a few (Lot) of the questions raised..I suspect that the date of implementation will have to be changed due to the fact that "most" have not even recieved their "Draft" yet,so won't have the necessary time to report it. Mine is "wrong" but I suspect there will be a few others as well.."Morally" I should report the mistake but Not yet..I'll wait till the others get their "Drafts" before making any approach to them.

[Wunwing]

I've now had an e-mail from CASA with a close date of 20th of May. I've not seen my license yet and I know of at least one person in the same situation.
Wunwing

[Engineer_aus]

All I can say is that it is a joke. I too have had category's and licences that I should not have added to my Licence. I have since sent back my "update" It also does state that it is up to the LAME that they do look at their licence and let CASA know. Do you really want to end up in court or on air crash investigation for signing for something that you don't actually have?

[fruitloop]

Engineer_aus
"Extras"...yep I have a few as well...I've never seen a few of them.!!.let alone worked on them..
From my understanding (I could be wrong)reading between the lines it appears that by 2015 C.A.S.A. will have nothing to do with Licencing of Engineers..It will be handled fully by the Tafes etc etc..Company Licences ??
I (and a few others) have "NO" intention of telling them of "their" mistake..Roll on 27/06/11..

[Engineer_aus]

fruitloop, you are so correct. Apparently the "industry have been asking for it for years" was what we were told at the meeting I attended. I was W.T.F.! More like some so and so's that decided that their wallets were not fat enough in the training department.

I will be very interested in what my Part 66 final licence will come out to be like. Also the other thing I want to question is no W,N,S or L before your licence, just your ARN like the pilots. So who knows now when a pilot or a LAME signs off on a MR or tech log!

[fruitloop]

Engineer_aus
Personly I think that using my ARN as opposed to Licence number makes me feel younger (Not all licences have Letters in front of them and are only 4 digits long)"I Must be old" !! LOL
I agree with the comment about "wallets" (organisations and/or companies)getting fatter and/or existing on peoples "assesments.
Roll on 27/06/11...and eventually 1/1/15 !!

[johnrhx]

Got my new licence last week. A lot of pages with a lot of exceptions, not easy to understand at all. I retained all I had (i think) and got a few others.
According to the letter I received it is my responsibility not to use the priviledges on my ne w licence unless I think I can! I am still not sure what that statement means.
One thing is clear to me Avionics is a dying trade whether you like it or not. I know a few 5 cat CAR 31 guys, who don't really have a clue about avionics but now have very impressive EASA licences. Those guys guys did really well from the change.

[baron_beeza]

I received my new licence a few days ago also. At first glance I was gobsmacked.. so many type I had not heard of, - let alone worked on.

With a few minutes research I started to make some sense of it all...

Having said that, I have licences from many countries and without any doubt this must be the most confusing.

The NZ version along with whole Parts 66, 43 and 91 interpretation seems to be miles ahead, - at least with the ratings I hold and operate.

The FAA Certificate is the size of a credit card...., the NZ licence a similar size. This CASA thing will grow into a book.

Inclusions, Exclusions... hmmm WTF. At least it may look impressive.

Oh well, just go with the flow I guess and flounder along with everyone else.
Change for the better ? :*

[edsbar]

As it is now 4 years since this crap has been implemented how is that working out for you?

We were spun a lot of BS and confusion still reigns.

CASA emphasised that if you could do it in the past under the old licence we could continue to do in the future.

[yr right]

Easa going to a system like we had. They said it was a much better system than what they have. That came straight from Casa mouth. It's a joke. Put someone on and you have no idea what they have what they don't. It's an absolutely laughing stock.
The only good thing is you don't have to pay for renewal every 24 months.
I guess that's a plus.
Other than that training company's that have gone up in smoke others that have had their approval pulled others that give you two rates one for a possible pass at $x and then state in the same add pay $xplus and you will pass.
Corruption plus.
A system that still not approved any where else in the world. And that's what it was all done for. Because as explained in the road show. They play AFL in Victoria. Yep that's was thier answer. Because AFL not played anywhere else. Great work.
Instant engineer just add water.

[Hasherucf]

Been fortunate enough to have my licences issued before the cut off date. Which I know now has been extended. I know many people pushed hard to make an application. My biggest concern is the lack of a pathway for apprentices for a licencing outcome.

WA's TAFE isn't an approved training provider but apprentices still have to attend because of funding rules .I don't believe that the NT has a training provider.

Friends got caught up in the the QIAE fiasco and are now 5th year apprentices who have to re-sit all their theory before getting passed out as tradesmen. Not sure the Archerfield provider has accreditation yet either.

Will be a definite lack of engineers in the future. You can scream that from the mountain tops but wont be heard. Guess Abbott is planning on bringing in Chinese LAME's

[fruitloop]

Hasherucf
Check out the latest advertisments for LAMES......the money is less but a 457 visa is guaranteed.. !! I won't say which airlines but if you do a little digging it can be found out.. BTW they Now operate A320's !!

[mightyauster]

The Part 66 fiasco has cost me well in excess of $30k and about three years worth of recreational leave. Not only did I have to remove the avionics restrictions from my basic B1 license, but I have had to pay for and attend courses to remove the restrictions from each of the type ratings I currently use. In the meantime, the SOBs I work for, after telling me that my license was my responsibility, found that it was cheaper and easier import labour from overseas on 457 visas, that already had the 'magical' full B1 piece of paper.
Guess Abbott is planning on bringing in Chinese LAME's
This has already happened under the previous LABOR government - not that I am a fan of the current government either.:ugh:
Ask SP from the ALAEA about the stonewalling he received from Chris Bowen, the Immigration Minister, when he was trying to stop the outright abuse of the 457 visa system at the time.:*

[Lead Balloon]

Sooner or later, many people work out that there is no substantial difference between Labor in power and the Coalition in power.

When the electorate is programmed to elect one or the other, both of them win. They know that their turn to suck the body politic dry will come around eventually. That's why, for example, the frequent travel and allowances scandals always involve politicians from both 'sides', but rarely lead to any substantial changes. It's also why the same people have been running aviation regulation in Australia for nearly two decades.

Whether people come to this realisation before they're thrown on the scrapheap is a different question. Given that it's still generally a one-side-or-the-other debate in Australia, I guess that many voters are still slow learners.