CASA part 66 feedback meeting
I went on Tuesday night, I guess there was about 130 people in attendance.
A lot of questions unanswered, especially if you had one relating to return to service of GA aircraft because (in my opinion) most of the questions to the panel were from avionics guys from the airlines. It seems there are some issues for those guys relating to the electrical catagory and LRU changing on airframe/powerplant B licences.
There was only an hour for questions which wasn't enough, but to be fair the panel remained afterwards to respond to individuals. I don't know how many stayed on, I didn't. It was descending into a bit of a shouting match, not very dignified.
A lot of questions unanswered, especially if you had one relating to return to service of GA aircraft because (in my opinion) most of the questions to the panel were from avionics guys from the airlines. It seems there are some issues for those guys relating to the electrical catagory and LRU changing on airframe/powerplant B licences.
There was only an hour for questions which wasn't enough, but to be fair the panel remained afterwards to respond to individuals. I don't know how many stayed on, I didn't. It was descending into a bit of a shouting match, not very dignified.
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I went last night. About 200 there.Again the Avionics guys had problems and CASA couldn't give answers. Basically Mech guys are getting rights into avionics but avionics are getting nothing the other way and are loosing oxygen.
Prior to the meeting a friend said to me, after this comes in you wouldn't want to be avionics.At the time I thought that he was exagerating, but he wasn't.
Also, they have created a way for Aeronautical Engineers to hold C licences, but again no way for Electronic Degree guys to hold a C license. I suspect that a career path to foreman for a LAME in an airline is now dead. HR types have always had a problem of LAMEs not having a degree, so now that they can replace them, they will.
CASA appear to have stopped private study licenses and you will have to go to an approved training organisation. The industrial implications of this are obvious if you are in airlines. When asked what protection LAMEs had over career paths when asked to sign out suspect aircraft, we got a lecture on the obligations of a LAME.When recent events were mentioned from the floor, CASA didn't comment.
Where GA and Limited Cat goes from here is still in question.We were told that MAs will be rolled into licenses, but in Limited Category we can't get the time up to get a license.
At the beginning we were told that no one will be worse off, but over the night a number found that they would indeed by worse off and loose a number of priviledges that they currently hold.
In summary a well run meeting by CASA but for us Avionics types, the message is well beyond disappointing.Basically CASA has "shafted" us.We now have very limited promotional prospects and even more limited work areas.
Wunwing
Prior to the meeting a friend said to me, after this comes in you wouldn't want to be avionics.At the time I thought that he was exagerating, but he wasn't.
Also, they have created a way for Aeronautical Engineers to hold C licences, but again no way for Electronic Degree guys to hold a C license. I suspect that a career path to foreman for a LAME in an airline is now dead. HR types have always had a problem of LAMEs not having a degree, so now that they can replace them, they will.
CASA appear to have stopped private study licenses and you will have to go to an approved training organisation. The industrial implications of this are obvious if you are in airlines. When asked what protection LAMEs had over career paths when asked to sign out suspect aircraft, we got a lecture on the obligations of a LAME.When recent events were mentioned from the floor, CASA didn't comment.
Where GA and Limited Cat goes from here is still in question.We were told that MAs will be rolled into licenses, but in Limited Category we can't get the time up to get a license.
At the beginning we were told that no one will be worse off, but over the night a number found that they would indeed by worse off and loose a number of priviledges that they currently hold.
In summary a well run meeting by CASA but for us Avionics types, the message is well beyond disappointing.Basically CASA has "shafted" us.We now have very limited promotional prospects and even more limited work areas.
Wunwing
I am unable to make any of the nights due work commitments, but please keep posting the feedback, as I was unaware of the Avionics dilemma's.
I personally disagree with Mechanical LAME's getting higher privelges in regards to electrical issues, but only if it relates to their specific aircraft they are signing out. For example, a Starter Generator or a control box for a fuel or engine problem should not be just limited to an E&I guy cause it has a cannon plug on it. LAME's are trained in type courses for that product, so hopefully the new 66 system allows greater range for LAME's to sign defects off like this?
Cheers, KP
I personally disagree with Mechanical LAME's getting higher privelges in regards to electrical issues, but only if it relates to their specific aircraft they are signing out. For example, a Starter Generator or a control box for a fuel or engine problem should not be just limited to an E&I guy cause it has a cannon plug on it. LAME's are trained in type courses for that product, so hopefully the new 66 system allows greater range for LAME's to sign defects off like this?
Cheers, KP
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Looks like the mechanical guy isn't allowed to certify for changing a Brake change any more..(unless he is full B1) The temp senser is a Issue and for the guys with A330 Forget certifying for a wheel change (again unless you are full B1 and not with restrictions) TPIS is a issue..I guess the original "proof reading" wasn't that good...Mechanical and Avionic guys are both under the pump !!
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i have worked under the 'easa' system, in Canada which had the system when EASA was the JAA
it works well, there are still places for Avionics types,
lets be honest gentlemen, how many airframe/engine guys can EFFECTIVELY read a wiring diagram, i sure as hell can't, and i've been at it for 20 years, that being said it REALLY ****s me off that a pilot can change a lightbulb and i can't,
lets look at this realistically, a great many systems on aircraft today are electro-mechanical in nature, i know there are electrically controlled/pneumatically operated valves in Air condition systems, and not to mention the classic old solenoid valve in most other systems, what about electric fuel or hydraulic pumps, and those black boxes on engines, and the sensors that go with them, (most engine run like **** when they break), and then that box starts operating mechanical valves, motors and all the other stuff that goes with it
most maintenance ppl need to know and understand how a COMPLETE system works to effectively troubleshoot and repair it, don't feed me the **** that only a conehead can touch something with wires on it, it is SERIOUSLY time this country comes out of the dark ages
as for out on line when a radio head craps out, we can change it, call someone and if it works, great, away the aircraft goes, if it doesn't work - well the avionics guys will have to figure it out
on a side note Canada introduced a structures license as the same time, (those guys can do some really big repairs that make me look on in wonderment)
for GA, i don't see how it will change the way you guys go about you work, cept for AMO manuals etc etc
if anyone is offended by my comments it might be time for you to retire
it works well, there are still places for Avionics types,
lets be honest gentlemen, how many airframe/engine guys can EFFECTIVELY read a wiring diagram, i sure as hell can't, and i've been at it for 20 years, that being said it REALLY ****s me off that a pilot can change a lightbulb and i can't,
lets look at this realistically, a great many systems on aircraft today are electro-mechanical in nature, i know there are electrically controlled/pneumatically operated valves in Air condition systems, and not to mention the classic old solenoid valve in most other systems, what about electric fuel or hydraulic pumps, and those black boxes on engines, and the sensors that go with them, (most engine run like **** when they break), and then that box starts operating mechanical valves, motors and all the other stuff that goes with it
most maintenance ppl need to know and understand how a COMPLETE system works to effectively troubleshoot and repair it, don't feed me the **** that only a conehead can touch something with wires on it, it is SERIOUSLY time this country comes out of the dark ages
as for out on line when a radio head craps out, we can change it, call someone and if it works, great, away the aircraft goes, if it doesn't work - well the avionics guys will have to figure it out
on a side note Canada introduced a structures license as the same time, (those guys can do some really big repairs that make me look on in wonderment)
for GA, i don't see how it will change the way you guys go about you work, cept for AMO manuals etc etc
if anyone is offended by my comments it might be time for you to retire
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The way I see it Connaught is that the Avionics categories after being treated as a sub race in the 50s and 60s have recently been treated as equals with the mechanical trades. These rule changes alter the balance and take away some of their current priviledges.
In the new world where training and apprenticeships have to be paid for, why would anyone go into Avionics or stay in Avionics with a now very limited career path. Much better to start somewhere else, ie IT or mining where you are respected than spend a career being treated a 2nd class category.
As far as trouble shooting.I suspect the biggest problem in trouble shooting a complex electronic problem with the new approach is that it is very easy to initially mask the real problem with an LRU change.A little bit of knowledge is sometimes dangerous.
Wunwing
In the new world where training and apprenticeships have to be paid for, why would anyone go into Avionics or stay in Avionics with a now very limited career path. Much better to start somewhere else, ie IT or mining where you are respected than spend a career being treated a 2nd class category.
As far as trouble shooting.I suspect the biggest problem in trouble shooting a complex electronic problem with the new approach is that it is very easy to initially mask the real problem with an LRU change.A little bit of knowledge is sometimes dangerous.
Wunwing
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As an avionics Lame with a considerable amount of experience I find the grandfathered right of Mech Lames rights to sign daily inspections on all types hypocracy. A newly licenced snot nose can sign an overnight check on all systems and can still ask where the QAR is because they weren't taught anything about it on course. That said good luck to all working out were we all sit it the new world. Just a piece of advice - KNOW YOUR PERSONAL LIMITATIONS. If you have an electrical snag and dont know what your doing -ASK.
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Wunwing
Yes they may have lost Oxygen but now are on their own with ATA73 (FADEC). I really want to see a Avionics guy change either a FMU or a HCU..
Interesting times ahead..
aveng
Very good advice there about knowing your own limitations..
After reading all 101 pages of the part 66 draft (inplementation date 27/06/11) and signed off by the minister of Transport..It looks like there are going to be some "Interesting" times ahead.
Yes they may have lost Oxygen but now are on their own with ATA73 (FADEC). I really want to see a Avionics guy change either a FMU or a HCU..
Interesting times ahead..
aveng
Very good advice there about knowing your own limitations..
After reading all 101 pages of the part 66 draft (inplementation date 27/06/11) and signed off by the minister of Transport..It looks like there are going to be some "Interesting" times ahead.
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wunwing, aveng et all i do apologize for sounding flippant, it was not the actual intent
as stated i have worked under Easa type regulatory framework, and as bad as this sounds for the avionics types, it isn't, as you know the aircraft are still incredibly complex and no one can possible know all systems, hence the company i was working for still employed avionics types on the line, and in heavy, and these guys still took care of all the defects and scheduled component changes, mostly due to us airframe/engine guys being too busy doing the scheduled maintenance and defects on the rest of the aircraft
while i had/have avionics priveldges on my canadian license, i am by no means an expert, never pretended to be (i think) it does mean that those 'grey' areas like my engine control units that have canon plugs on them i can change, or i can certify for cleaning and reapplying contact enhancer on a pw100 engine harness, which previously has been on the limits of being 'outside' the scope of my license
hope this clears up my position
Conn
as stated i have worked under Easa type regulatory framework, and as bad as this sounds for the avionics types, it isn't, as you know the aircraft are still incredibly complex and no one can possible know all systems, hence the company i was working for still employed avionics types on the line, and in heavy, and these guys still took care of all the defects and scheduled component changes, mostly due to us airframe/engine guys being too busy doing the scheduled maintenance and defects on the rest of the aircraft
while i had/have avionics priveldges on my canadian license, i am by no means an expert, never pretended to be (i think) it does mean that those 'grey' areas like my engine control units that have canon plugs on them i can change, or i can certify for cleaning and reapplying contact enhancer on a pw100 engine harness, which previously has been on the limits of being 'outside' the scope of my license
hope this clears up my position
Conn
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I've been looking at the proposals, changes to proposals, and changes to changes, for the last three+ years. The bottom line from my discussions with MPL is that nobody is going to lose privileges (Oxygen?), and until you complete training to remove Exclusions, nobody is going to gain privileges. Even after all this time, I can't understand how some of this is going to work!
Until you, and I, start receiving draft Part 66 licences, it's still a guessing game.
Yes I work for a Part 147 training school, so I have an agenda. But I'm looking forward to the implementation, even if I do have an E,I & R licence!
Spanner
Until you, and I, start receiving draft Part 66 licences, it's still a guessing game.
Yes I work for a Part 147 training school, so I have an agenda. But I'm looking forward to the implementation, even if I do have an E,I & R licence!
Spanner
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Spanner.....I would suggest that you have a talk with your local CASA rep as soon as possible....It appears that Instructors won't have the necessary time on "spanners" to maintain their A,B1 and B2 Licences.The new Licence is "perpetual"with the old clause of 6 months in 2 years still there..my understanding (I could be wrong) is that if you are not exercising your "priveledges" you don't/won't need them..(the get out of Jail free card is once you can prove you have done 100 days.?.. it may/can be re-installed)
"A" licences... Hot issue...""WORST SENARIO"" It appears that now a Third Year apprentice (provided he/she is 21 years old)can be issued them and certify a RTS (return to service,transit authority etc.etc)Sort of makes a mockery of Type training and opens the doors to companies to take advantage of wages....If I may use a Quote mentioned...".Hands the Keys to Hell to the Devil."
"A" licences... Hot issue...""WORST SENARIO"" It appears that now a Third Year apprentice (provided he/she is 21 years old)can be issued them and certify a RTS (return to service,transit authority etc.etc)Sort of makes a mockery of Type training and opens the doors to companies to take advantage of wages....If I may use a Quote mentioned...".Hands the Keys to Hell to the Devil."
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Fruitloop, yes you are right about the instructor bit. I believe the only exception is if you have been licenced for 10 years prior to becoming an instructor. I have been aware of this requirement for some time, and have taken steps to cover it. I spend waaaay too much time away from my desk (means more work at home in the evening
), and swing spanners as a contractor who operates a fleet of helicopters nearby. I'm also responsible for all E,I & R work on our company aircraft. So I think I've got it covered!
The over-riding factor with A licences is that without a company authorisation, an A licence holder can do nothing. I know you'll say that an unscrupulous operator will simply authorise everything, but the Part 145 AMO does have a Responsible (hopefully) Manager, who is meant to manage these things.
I'm still waiting to receive my draft Part 66 licence, has anybody got theirs yet? I'm interested to see what sort of exclusions are common.
Spanner
), and swing spanners as a contractor who operates a fleet of helicopters nearby. I'm also responsible for all E,I & R work on our company aircraft. So I think I've got it covered!The over-riding factor with A licences is that without a company authorisation, an A licence holder can do nothing. I know you'll say that an unscrupulous operator will simply authorise everything, but the Part 145 AMO does have a Responsible (hopefully) Manager, who is meant to manage these things.
I'm still waiting to receive my draft Part 66 licence, has anybody got theirs yet? I'm interested to see what sort of exclusions are common.
Spanner
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Went to the Perth meeting . Seems the presenters didn't know the subject well, especially how part66 interacted with part 145 and 147. Seems most questions went unanswered or part answers . In some cases reply's were met with personal view points of the presenters. After the show I asked some questions which couldnt be answered . After that I email the questions I had to CASA but still haven't recieved a reply 
Certainly left me with more questions than answers
Certainly left me with more questions than answers
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Just a piece of advice - KNOW YOUR PERSONAL LIMITATIONS. If you have an electrical snag and dont know what your doing -ASK.
This system was rushed in to apply a cheap fix to the growing shortage of LAE's.
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WooHoo....Just recieved my Draft of the new Licence...Looks like I've been given a few "NEW" licences...Its amazing how omiting to have a few letters (namely E1) on a aircraft type can be so easy...What does a JT9D look like ??How about a PW4000 ?? I've never worked on either but now have the Licence..I wonder how many people "WON"T" tell CASA about their "Mistake" !!
How many havn't recieved their "Draft" yet..??Insufficent time to challenge or report the mistake...Now Just have to ask about the Pay rise with my employer !!....Better wait till the new licence turns up...
How many havn't recieved their "Draft" yet..??Insufficent time to challenge or report the mistake...Now Just have to ask about the Pay rise with my employer !!....Better wait till the new licence turns up...
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Ngineer hit the nail on the head.
I couldn't have put it better myself. CASA have engineered a solution for at least 20 years of neglect to the LAME system. Instead of updating the antiquated exam questions and encouraging AME's to get licenced, they did nothing for 3 decades.
If they keep QANTAS happy with Part 66, they keep aircraft maintenance out of the public eye. It's purely a system designed for large airlines to get people licenced. Grrr.
If they keep QANTAS happy with Part 66, they keep aircraft maintenance out of the public eye. It's purely a system designed for large airlines to get people licenced. Grrr.
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Still have not had a reply from CASA I sent about 3 weeks ago. All I want to know is what exams with have to do under the old system to remove restrictions under the new part 66 B1 Electrical licence. Also if I should I keep a logbook ..... or do I just need to do the theory component?