Touch And Goes with no flaps

[Swift-R]

I have been training with my instructor touch and goes with and without flaps. Today I went on a normal solo flight and I use to touch and go with no flaps. This time and instructor was in the aerodrome tower and noticed that. When I arrived at the hangar he almost beat me because of that. Then I showed him the aircraft checklist where it says 0 to 10 degrees - 70kt (C152 by the way), so it is possible to land with no flaps but he kept saying no. What is your opinion?

[hvogt]

Touch and goes with different flap settings, including flaps up, have been a normal part of my training, on solo and dual flights, daytime or at night. As for the question weather you can land a small aircraft with flaps up, of course you can, provided you have enough runway ahead of you.

In my flight school, however, students were encouraged to land with flaps full whenever possible. The reason for that was the learning effect. Flaps full landings are more difficult than flaps up landings, because the lower speed reduces aileron effectiveness.

[zondaracer]

It depends what the POH says, but most airplanes allow flapup landings. You should practice them too. What happens if you are flying and you have a flap failure and they are stuck in the up position...and you have never done a flaps up landing before?

[Cloud Chaser]

A 'normal' landing would be to use full flap, virtually all aircraft can be landed flapless, but this is usually considered an abnormal procedure. You are taught how to do them in case you have a flap failure.

I would guess that your instructor was objecting to you doing flapless approaches without asking or being told to. :=

Remember your instructor will have a better idea than you of your abilities, and as you are effectively flying on their licence it is important to fly the exercise that has been briefed.

Having said that, as your solo experience builds there is nothing wrong with practicing glides, flapless etc while solo IF that is what has been briefed. :ok:

[zondaracer]

To piggyback on cloudchaser, your school should have a set of SOPs. They should have outlined what is allowed or not.

[SkyCamMK]

No flaps maybe in heavy cross wind and without getting too technical...

Flaps can increase lift and or drag, they can slow you down at same attitude or keep same speed with a nose down attitude to help in landing phase with visibility (generally).

Practice of a different configuration can be good but why would you risk your undercarriage more than you need to?

Think aboout why exactly you require a particular flap setting - i.e. what is the optimum for the conditions and aircraft loading etc and with regard to weather and landing distance etc

When you know why you are using a certain setting and understand how to choose you will become a safer pilot - Good luck experimenting

[The500man]

You should fly as your instructor "instructs" you to fly. Whereas the flight manual will include recommended flap settings there may be other operational considerations, as someone pointed out above already, perhaps a short runway, or high obstacles on approach?

Landing a C152 flapless will require a fair bit of nose-up trim, so maybe your instructor doesn't want you to do this solo yet for fear of you having a low speed premature take-off and consequent low level stall?

Funnily enough in my last flying group, the ops manual encouraged the use of landing and take-off flap at all times on their high wing Cesna's just to minimise ground roll and thus tyre wear. It was also prohibited to use full flap because they kept getting stuck down. Which is a real problem if landing away somewhere where there isn't an onsite maintenance facility as you can imagine!

When you take your skills test though the examiner is going to ask you to demonstrate circuits in varying configurations so you will need to be able to land with various flap settings as well as flapless.

[The Flying Chicken]

I specify to my students what approaches I would like them to try, as mentioned, flapless are fine in most types. I call poor instructional technique if the instructor is laying into you. They should be happy that you got the aircraft back in one piece!
But really, they should make it clear what is expected. If they ask you to do normal T&G, and you go giving it all flapless and glides, then you deserve it. If he just told you to go and practice, that's exactly what you did.

[Shunter]

I'd tell the instructor that whilst you respect his opinion, you're flying circuits in a manufacturer approved configuration for which you have been appropriately trained.

I appreciate it can be difficult to question an instructor when you're an inexperienced student, but don't be afraid to; if he's a good guy he'll respect you for it. If you're wrong, get him to explain why. If you're right, he should show some humility and admit it. If you get past that point and he's still on your case I think you can justify telling him to piss off and put his ego back in it's box.

Edit to say: I fly a 177 and usually only use flaps for <500m strips. The 177 requires flaps for take-off, so when going flapless during circuits you just pop them to 10deg as soon as you touch down, then check them before you rotate. No big problem.

[Swift-R]

Cloud Chaser, he was not my instructor. He is an instructor in the school but he has never flew with he so he does not know my abilities. My instructor has told me the day before to practice landings with flaps 0, 10, 20 and 30 like I did before with him and that's what I did in this flight. When I arrived at the hangar, he (the other instructor) yelled at me and started asking questions like "Why do you want to be a pilot?" and "Your parents are paying this course for this?" (in Portuguese of course :p). He also asked me how many aircraft do I know that are certified to land with no flaps. Weird question, I did not answer... (All?) Also, C152 Checklist says T/O 0 to 10 degrees and landing 0 to 10 (70kt), 20 (65kt) and 30 (60kt) so it allows landing with flaps up.

I have contacted my instructor right after this and he told me there is no problem at all practicing landings with no flaps. You are also telling me there is no big deal and that it is not unsafe. Thanks for your help.

By the way, the runway 1190m long (3900ft I guess) so it is pretty long for a C152 I don't see why he treated me that way.

[Cloud Chaser]

Fair enough.
If YOUR instructor briefed you to practice various approaches and that's what you did, then good for you. :D
The OTHER instructor should keep his nose out. :ouch:

[zondaracer]

Sounds like the instructor in the tower has an ego problem and likes to be a bully

[The Dead Side]

Swift, what airfield are you learning at? I may know an instructor who fit's your description...

[Cows getting bigger]

I think it depends what you were authorised to do. If I send a student solo he is operating on the back of my licence and consequently I tell him exactly what he can/cannot do (obviously he deals with emergencies as necessary). If your instructor had said to try some flapless then that is OK. If you decided to do flapless/glides when he had specifically told you to only do 'standard' approaches, then you deserve a spanking.

[Pitts2112]

The instructor that chewed you out sounds like an arse. Anyone questioning your motivation to become a pilot because you were landing without flaps needs to be shown off the field. Tell him to go pound sand.

I can't speak for ALL aircraft, but certainly all aircraft I have flown can, and should, be landed without flaps. You should be proficient at landing the aircraft in as many different configurations as possible. Come to think of it, I can't remember the last time I landed an aircraft that even HAD flaps! I MUCH prefer using a slip than flaps. I feel like I have much finer control over the aircraft (probably a myth, but I've flown flapless aircraft for so long now, I'm just much more familiar with slips).

In the early days, follow your instructor's lead and don't push the boundaries too much. He'll be able to judge your abilities and knowledge and lead you to expand your repertoire appropriately.

[Cows getting bigger]

I think a point I was trying to make has been missed. As a student pilot (certainly in JAA/EASA-land) an instructor is meant to be supervising any solo flying. It isn't clear by your posts who authorised this particular flight, what the details of that authorisation were and who the supervising instructor was. Furthermore, did the club/school have SOPs and, if so, had you unwittingly broken them?

Of course, as others have said, at some point during your training you need to be competent in flying & landing the aircraft in various configurations.

PS. Don't be worried about obnoxious instructors - it comes with the rating :)

[FlyingKiwi_73]

If you fly a cessna, you certainly want to be able to execute flapless approaches, with those leccy flaps!!! good ole pipers and their mechanical 'ludditeness'

The instructor sounds like a bully, if he was concerned he would have approached you and asked a few polite questions, or talked to your flying instructor. Its poor form to chew out a student without getting all the facts, instructors are human some are good, some not so good.

I practice glide and flapless approcahes even now after my PPL, makes circuit bashing fun!

FK

[Pace]

There are a number of reasons why your instructor will not like you doing flapless landings.

Firstly all students are a bunch of idiots who must be protected from themselves so everything has to be kept as simple and uniform as possible.
You will be landing flatter so may not see over the instrument panel :)

You may misjudge your glidepath and take out a few trees and cows on the approach.

Less flap means less drag so being a student idiot you may not control your speed.

Less flap also usually means higher stall speed so you may stall.

Using numerous landing configurations may mean that being an idiot student pilot you may forget which one you are using and use the wrong speeds.

As most training nowadays involves avoiding everything are you surprised?
Of course I dont agree with any of the above and think pilots should be trained as pilots not plane drivers :E

Pace

[24Carrot]

Trees? Cows? In the plural? This was a 152!:=

[jollyrog]

I did some of these at night in the Warrior. Interesting.

[Lister Noble]

You have all got me really worried,I've never been taught how to use flaps on the Piper Cub.:)

[Jan Olieslagers]

What are the flaps there for, if not to be used during landing (and preceeding phases like approach and final)?

Landing is the very RAISON D'ETRE for flaps, and a beginner pilot should first learn to land in the normal way. Normal = according to NORM = POH, which will say a certain degree of flaps for most planes in most circumstances.
Further on in training you can and should practice exceptions - both to prepare for the day your flaps fail on you, and to make you a better pilot generally.

BTW the craft I was flying today ( http://www.skylaneulm.com/index.asp?lg=3 ) would require at least 1500 metres of runway to land without flaps, at least in my beginner's hands. I pray I'll have enough fuel left to reach the closest main airport, the day the electrical flimsiness fails on me.

BTW a training organisation where instructors don't speak from one mouth is suspect. A training organisation where you are bullied by an outsider to your training is a no-no.

[SNS3Guppy]

It was also prohibited to use full flap because they kept getting stuck down. Which is a real problem if landing away somewhere where there isn't an onsite maintenance facility as you can imagine!

I submit that if your flaps keep "getting stuck down," then you don't have very good maintenance at your home base. Forget anywhere else.

When the rental agency tells you not to lower the flaps in case they get stuck, it's a good time to rent some place else.

"Doctor, it hurts when I do this." "Then don't do that."

Not really a workable solution to a mechanical problem, in an airplane. Flaps are supposed to be able to go all the way down, and come all the way back up again, on a regular basis.

I once flew with a gentleman while checking him out in a company Cessn a210, who insisted he wanted to leave the landing gear down. His theory was that if we never raised the gear, it could never fail to come back down. While I can't faul this logic, I insisted that he raised and lowered it for every trip around the pattern. Imagine an instructor ingraining a bad habit like not reaching for the gear handle every time!

Let's face it, bald logic suggests that if we never move the airplane, it will never break (it's not true, of course), so flaps that never go all the way down can't get stuck, gear that never comes up won't refuse to come back down, and engines that never get started will last forever, right? Wrong, all three counts (yes, gear that doesn't get retracted can still fail, but that's another discussion for another time).

If you find someone is telling you not to do something in the airplane because something keeps failing, sticking, burning, frying, or unusual procedures or maintenance are used to correct a normal action, then it's really time to go fly something else.

[Swift-R]

Hello The Dead Side, it's in Portugal. Gestair (old Aerocondor).

[Flyingmac]

BTW the craft I was flying today ( http://www.skylaneulm.com/index.asp?lg=3 ) would require at least 1500 metres of runway to land without flaps, at least in my beginner's hands. I pray I'll have enough fuel left to reach the closest main airport, the day the electrical flimsiness fails on .

I'm assuming that's a typo and you mean feet, not metres?

[Jan Olieslagers]

It was not a typo but there was a slight bit of poetic exaggeration. Still, in the flare this bird floats and floats and keeps on floating even with the flaps in the second of three extensions. Setting full flaps is not recommended because the bird is hard to take off / go around with so much flaps , it really is a big difference from the second to the third (fully extended) position. Then again; don't forget I am really a beginner pilot, and a slow learner.

[Flyingmac]

This aircraft stalls at less than 30 kts so with a bit of practice you'll be able to pull off some seriously short landings. Happy flying.

[SNS3Guppy]

Still, in the flare this bird floats and floats and keeps on floating even with the flaps in the second of three extensions.

Floating and long landing is the result of an incorrect approach, at the incorrect speed. A little extra speed often means a lot more landing distance. Fly the correct speed to landing, and you'll have much more positive results.