Death of a Flying Club

[maxred]

Our AGM has been announced at month end, and the CFI has attached an interesting 'note', in that he asserts the club is dying, he cites the 'apathy of committee members past and present', the 'will to go on', and that the demise will be due to lack of flying, and lack of members.:ouch:

In part the current economic situation, and the uncertainty surrounding 'our world', is to blame, but I would be interested to guage the situation in other flying clubs around the country, and what enterprising means to stimulate existing, and attract new, members, others are utilising at this moment.

[SNS3Guppy]

Many years ago my mother called me to say that she had just learned her close friend had a terminal illness.

"He's dying." she said.

"No," I replied. "He's living. Treat him accordingly with the time he has left."

Sometime around that same period, I was in a flying club that occupied an old quansut hut hangar. A commercially-rated pilot with his own airplane wandered into the club one day, where pilots often congregated to "hangar-fly" and chat. He lay down on the floor, gazing at the ceiling, and in a distant voice informed us that the club was dying.

"This place even looks like a big metal coffin from the air." He said. He pronounced the death knell of the club then and there, and he was convinced it was all to end.

All things do end. Until they do, however, "dying" isn't "dead." In fact, it's not really dying at all, just changing. For some, a flying club is a haven. It's an escape, a hope, a place to go where one has an identity and a common drive with other lost souls. If one intends to keep that place alive, then promotion, encouragement, building up the membership and bringing in others is part and parcel with enjoying the place. Like a silent tree that falls in an empty forest, aviation is at it's best for people when it's shared, when there's people to hear it fall, and stop it from falling.

Certainly clubs dwindle with the economy. Flying clubs can do their part to keep people around, to encourage those who can't afford to keep flying, by offering something for everyone. There are ways. The instructor in your club who pronounced death would be much better served by finding new ways to breathe life into the club, rather than merely mourning it's eventual deminse.

Self-fulfilling prophesies are just that. It's far better to not prophesy at all; focus on the future, make the place the kind of place you want to be. Build it up, so says the movie, and they will come.

[maxred]

Thanks SN3. I agree, in that better to look at the cup half full, rather than the half empty attitude. Obviously come AGM, the more enterprising amongst us will rally to push the existing sitiuation. It is an interesting situation, and I have only been a member there for the past year, this will be my first meet, hence my post to see if the wider situation was replicating what is going on here at this club

[AfricanEagle]

SNS3Guppy, great post. :ok:

[Captain Smithy]

What club is this maxred? PM if you don't want to mention publicly.

Things have been against clubs for years but it's getting worse rapidly. EASA, more specifically Part M, and its associated wallet-eating costs are strangling the industry. Private aviation is being driven away from larger airfields by excessive costs, over-zealous imposition of CAS and in many cases outright physical prohibition. Smaller airfields are ever at threat from NIMBYism, unsympathetic councils and housing developers. Instructors are paid poorly. Rent costs are eye-watering due to fuel and maintenance costs.

The end result is people simply cannot afford the cost any more, and increasingly we normal people are being driven away by £2.00/ltr 100LL, four-figure maintenance bills, and having to spend a week's wages renting a clapped-out thirty-year-old tin with crap radios and a shagged interior for flying to another airfield with the girlfriend on a Saturday morning for a bit of sightseeing and a quick can of Irn Bru.

The new rotax-powered fibreglass thingies are nice, and cost much less to run. But you're still talking IRO £70K for one... which the clubs can't afford... because they can't make any profit... because they're being raped from all angles... so they/we are stuck with knackered spamcans. Therein lies the reason why clubs are fading away.

That said a club is a social entity, not just a business. A club is only as strong as the will of its members. Ignoring the cost issue briefly, if nobody can be arsed flying, there aren't any fly-outs and there's no social scene because nobody seems to be bothered then the whole thing's doomed right away. There's no atmosphere of interest, of community, of encouragement, of discovery of enjoyment, all vital aspects of the club. If you don't have that then the club simply won't work.

I hope your club can solve, or at least help, its problems maxred. As difficult as things are being made for us by that lot in the continent etc., the members can turn things around... but only if they really want to!

Smithy

[IO540]

One needs to work on the social scene. Ultimately, that is what keeps people hanging in there. Most light GA activity is not utility-based.

I think one of the hardest things is getting volunteers to pull in the same direction. All volunteer organisations suffer from this issue; you cannot order people about else they take a walk and then you have nobody to do the work. On top of that, organising pilots, with all the "character types" that you get in GA, is like herding cats :)

These times are hopefully a low point. We have just had an unusually bleak winter. I have just been up to Aberdeen but that was during a few days of good wx both here and up there. Looking at the forecast it is getting barely flyable up there again very soon... I am sure a lot of people are well cheesed off.

[Lister Noble]

Well,I've had a delightful flight today,several aircraft flying at the strip and a few chums to talk to.
Mind you, this is Norfolk.;)

[maxred]

CS, I will pm you.

IO, yes, the usual can of worms with egos, volunteers, and tredding on egg shells,lest you upset someone. Will give it a go at the AGM, and see if we can engender the social side. I see so much positive, but, and it is a large but, in clubs the majority have to swing to the beat,otherwise.............

[IO540]

You could set up another flying club :)

[Fuji Abound]

but I would be interested to guage the situation in other flying clubs around the country, and what enterprising means to stimulate existing, and attract new, members, others are utilising at this moment.


In tough times value for money, customer service (membership service) and enthusiam will cut the mustard with the remaining punters. Assuming there is some local competition you also need to clearly define what you have to offer that they dont. Flying schools (if they are the cometition) are traditionally very bad at providing events for members, be they fly outs, talks, mentoring etc., key areas where a real club can define themselves from the competition. Schools are inevitably profit driven, true clubs are often run by the members for the members so should be able to offer more competitive terms.

That said, sometimes you have to accept the inevitable - we all recall the idiom of flogging a dead horse. If the horse is nearly dead I would assess whether it is kinder to allow it to meet its fate; if the demand exists there remains the opportunity to establish a new club without the baggage of the old.

[gasax]

I think all clubs tend to go through these periods. It is unfortunate but the sort of people who want to be 'on the committee' are often those least suited to that role - absorbed in the minutae of constitutions and motions.

The key to it is the social side - people will put up with all sorts of inconveniences if the crac is good and they meet people whose company they enjoy. Unfortunately this is often an anathema to the committee types.

You may get some suport for a members revolt once things reach that point - otherwise best let it die and remember the neardowells who made it happen!

[maxred]

Thanks for all the response. The AGM is end of this month and lets see what this brings.

[Justiciar]

In part the current economic situation, and the uncertainty surrounding 'our world', is to blame, but I would be interested to guage the situation in other flying clubs around the country, and what enterprising means to stimulate existing, and attract new, members, others are utilising at this moment.

I think most of what can be said has been. In these sorts of economic times clubs and their flying suffer in the same way as any other business suffers, particularly luxury parts of the economy. Our club is quite fortunate in that there are some 16 flying members of which perhaps 6 to 8 fly reaonably regularly. Generally, there is sufficient utilisation to pay the bills at the end of the year. I would say though that at the moment the big issue is over the cost of training. The price of flying an old spamcan is going to be a major disincentive to new pilots coming on stream, which is what any pass time needs to maintain its numbers.

Perhaps the new VLA restricted type certification will see some schools or clubs buying modern cheaper to maintain and run aircraft. I don't want to set this hare running again as it has been debated endlessly, but the key to reinvigorating the flying scene is a modern fuel efficient fleet. Sure, the cost of buying a new certified VLA is into five figures, but that is no different from any other business having to invest in fixed assets. Ancient iron with steam guages are not the way to attract the next generation of pilots.

I agree that commercially operated schools or airfields are going to have to offer much more to attract people. Going to an airfield has to be a good day out, not something to be endured.

[Sir George Cayley]

Consider this. Not aimed at any club in particular.

If you are employed by a company, with tax deducted via PAYE and earn around £50K, you'll take home approx £2750 pcm subject to code.

Ask what would your partner's reaction might be if you said you were going for a 2 hour flight and it will cost £250?

Price elasticity of demand is the economic model ruling a major part of the disposable income decision making with regard to GA.

The drop out rate from flying clubs both during and after training is increasing according to the Flying Instructor newsletter from the Campaign. So another economic rule is the law of diminishing returns.

However, it's difficult to persuade a committee that they should slash rental rates to increase volumes.

Last thought. Have any training organisations that took advantage of the relaxation of the licensed airfield requirement reduced hire rates as a result?

Sir George Cayley

[FlyingKiwi_73]

The social aspect is the KEY, if you don't feel welcome or if its the same old farts talking about the same old stuff and not talking to you about it, it can be a bit lonely especially when you want to ask about something, technique, local landmarks local conditions etc.

I remember going to the club after a bad day feeling abit down and needing a bit of a flying releif (a spot of lunch/study and a quick circuit). I sat down at the table with pie opposite the club secratary/accountant.
He gave me the dirtiest of looks, said absolutely nothing (i tried a hello!)

It was the last straw,..I just felt like 'Hey i pay your salary mate, you can be a bit more civil' I thought this was my last bastion of fun :-(

[IO540]

If you are employed by a company, with tax deducted via PAYE and earn around £50K, you'll take home approx £2750 pcm subject to code.

Ask what would your partner's reaction might be if you said you were going for a 2 hour flight and it will cost £250? The answer will depend on whether she gets a similar deal for herself :)

Which could be something entirely different e.g. a horse with a 4x4 and a trailer and all the assorted expenses that go with that (farriers, horse dentists, etc). When I was divorcing in 1999 I calculated the cost of living of my ex (who told me that unless she can keep everything as is, I won't see the boys again) and the horses featured at something like £5k p.a. I don't think this, adjusting for 12 years' worth of inflation, is all that different from a fairly substantial (above average) amount of GA flying :)

Or it could be something similar e.g. she flies with you :)

Like most men I got fleeced in my divorce but I have no sympathy for men who shack up with a woman who flutters her eyelashes for just long enough to get the signature on the dotted line and then implements a clampdown on privileges. Today, internet dating makes it possible to (eventually) dig out somebody you can get on with and who shares your ideals etc. No need to end up with the only option that was around in the office :)

[Captain Smithy]

Good point about the VLAs Justicar, definately where the future lies, sadly most clubs just can't afford brant new aeroplanes and so are having to run ye olde American Avgas dinosaurs. With higher costs. A vicious circle difficult to break.

Smithy

[Justiciar]

sadly most clubs just can't afford brant new aeroplanes and so are having to run ye olde American Avgas dinosaurs

Can they afford not to? There are ways of financing a large capital spend; you don't necessarily need cash in the bank. Clubs are in danger of getting themselves into a downward spiral where diminishing revenue means aircraft not replaced which means even less interest in flying. They have to dig themselves out of this hole or they will cease to exist.

Some clubs and groups do manage this. My PA 28 180 group has just put its rate up from £65 to £75 per hour due to fuel costs; the chipmunk is still pegged at £100. These aircraft are substantially cheaper than hiring, but you cannot learn to fly on them and so you have to go to one of the few schools about, all of which fly PA28s or C150s which are > 30 years old (probably some are over 40). This just doesn't create the right atmosphere or ethos to encourage people to learn and then to stick at it.

When my son starts to drive later this year he will not choose a motoring school running Ford Anglias, so why do we expect people to be attracted by the aviation equivalent? People are exposed to modern technology and systems every waking moment of the day and they will fail to understand the virtue of analogue guages and engines designed 60+ years ago running on leaded fuel, nor aircraft interiors looking like something from an episode of Life of Mars!

The first school which invests in a brace of the new restricted type certificate aircraft (sub 1000 kg) is going to have a huge advantage. Of course timing is important and now may not be the moment, but it won't be long before the economy does pick up and people actually want to spend their money on something like flying.

[IO540]

There are ways of financing a large capital spend; you don't necessarily need cash in the bank

Can you get a loan, at a "meaningful" interest rate, secured just on the aircraft?

Otherwise, it is the usual issue with finding enough people willing to sign a personaly guarantee...

[maxred]

I do not think you can ge meaningful finance any more. Once upon a time they would take the value of the asset, look for a deposit, the balance funded, generally with an eye of timed items- engine at the forefront,all with a decent interest rate.

I may be wrong, but since 2008, the view has been downward - asset value/interest rate/larger deposits which often then make the transaction unattractive to ALL concerned.

You could always buy brand new and watch the asset depreciate like a proverbial brick in relative value:eek:

[IO540]

That is why I would be suprised if you could get non ripoff rate finance on a new aircraft, especially as all the low end GA ones (SR22 etc) are plastic, or flimsy, or both.

Years ago I had this wonderful business idea ;) of running a flying school, with newish planes which can be used for real going places, where every time you have a dozen keen new affluent PPLs kicking around, you flog them one of your planes by helping them create a syndicate around the same plane they did their PPLs in.

Then the school gets another one with the money they just got.

Obviously the school would provide operational management assistance because all the ground based crap in GA (maintenance etc) are major learning curves.

This would be attractive to the pilots, but there are obvious issues:

- schools have a huge incentive to keep new PPLs in the "self fly hire ghetto" for as long as possible (and most PPLs vanish after that)

- finding a dozen keen PPLs is not hard but finding a dozen keen affluent ones might be :)

- schools don't like experienced PPLs hanging around because they will end up taking students on cost-shared (the vast majority of non-solo post-PPL flights are cost-shared) trips, depriving the student of cash which he "should" be spending on lessons :)

[BackPacker]

What's the financial situation of the club like?

A good club will have a healthy balance sheet, and will proactively look at things like hours flown, general economic trends, prices of fuel/maintenance, and set prices for the aircraft accordingly. If the hours flown then fall below the minimum, they will proactively get rid of aircraft, or lay them up temporarily: Cancel the insurance, let the CofA expire, pickle the engine and put it in a cheap corner somewhere. In any case, they are aware of the financial consequences of various trends and decisions and act upon them.

But once the balance total starts to approach zero, or even below, you run out of options very quickly. You can't get rid of aircraft because the loan/mortgage on them is higher than the sale price and you don't have money to cover the loss. You can't increase your prices because it drives members away. You can't decrease them because you can't cover your costs already. You can't attract new members because members don't want to join a club in financial trouble. And you can't attract new students because they don't want to fly in your aging aircraft.

Poll your members. Ask them what they expect from the club. Not just the social side, but also the quantity and quality of the aircraft, and what they're willing/able to pay for them. Then look at the fleet, see if it matches the members wishes, and if you can make the numbers work out. Get help from a financial expert or at the very least a few sets of independent eyes. But if the club can't provide what the members want, it's dying indeed.

Also look at the competition at your airfield and surrounding fields. If you can't beat them, join them. My club went through a merger with another club a few years ago. Yes, lots of emotion involved, some members quit, but at the end of the day, we now have a larger and healthier club left, that's better equipped to deal with hard times. The club also has had to make some hard choices about aircraft types we wanted to keep, and aircraft types we eventually want to get rid of. And that makes people unhappy too. But that's life.

[maxred]

Thats a good response BP. Yes the members will be polled. I agree your Catch 22 scenario, and actually a lot of clubs, and business, find themselves in that scenario, with available options running out quickly. Very quickly.

IO has a valid point, and sorry your venture did not proceed, where you could take the club up market, cap the membership, but they pay a hefty price. Quality to suit the membership wish. The issue for a lot of the UK, of course, is population demographs, with too many attempting to grab market share, where as all to often, not an available and willing population (business customer) readily available and willing.

[IO540]

Well, yes, to do anything remotely imaginative you need a strong share of the local market which means not being at an airfield where there are 7 other PPL schools :)

The problem the UK scene has got is that there is always somebody willing to come in on an OVC005 day and sit there all day without drawing a salary, in case somebody phones up to book a pleasure flight (oops I meant a trial lesson :) ). Nobody can compete with that kind of outfit.

sorry your venture did not proceed

I never tried it. I have no interest in setting up any aviation business. Might look at some non-certified avionics product (which could be sold by mail order) one day...

[airpolice]

How did things go at the AGM?

[Final 3 Greens]

Bizarre, but true, the flying club with the best finances at the airfield I learned to fly at, had no aircraft and did not do any flying.

It did have a phenomenal social scene.

[NorthSouth]

maxred, please check your PMs

NS

[Mickey Kaye]

"The first school which invests in a brace of the new restricted type certificate aircraft (sub 1000 kg) is going to have a huge advantage. Of course timing is important and now may not be the moment, but it won't be long before the economy does pick up and people actually want to spend their money on something like flying"

I totally agree but there isn't any aircraft on the market that fits the bill. Name me one new VLA Rotax aircraft that up to the demands of instructing?

[Jan Olieslagers]

Name me one new VLA Rotax aircraft that up to the demands of instructing?
Not sure about the exact meaning of VLA, but the FK9 and Rans S6 are just two that fit the bill nicely. There must be several more.

[flybymike]

I think the AT3 is already used in the training environment?

[Mickey Kaye]

FK9 and Rans S6

Not approved for PPL(A) training

"I think the AT3 is already used in the training environment?"

Yes it is but the airframe/interior isn't upto it. Which is why I suspect the reason old sarum flying school has their fleet up for sale.