Aerobatics

[ATCAdam]

In order to flying aerobatics do you need an aerobatic rating on your licence? I know you need one to participate in competitions but I mean could someone with a PPL feasibly hire out an aerobatic aircraft and do some aeros?

I'm asking because I have quite a few hours of aerobatic experience and when I go for my PPL I would still like to be able to do them.

Thanks for reading,

-Adam

[Mark1234]

That depends on where you are in the world. In the UK, there is no aerobatic 'rating'; however, individual hirers are at liberty to impose whatever conditions they please in order to allow you to borrow their A/c.

Frankly, you are well advised to take some instruction - if you're good, you'll learn more, if there are basics that need building, you'll find out. Aerobatics aren't intrinsically difficult; IMHO it is when things diverge from plan that you need to be on the ball.

You don't mention how your experience is gained - it is likely to be helpful, but not necessarily directly relevant to what you might be flying next.

[eharding]

In the UK, at present, there is no concept of an aerobatic rating or qualification that can be attached to a PPL - in order to compete in BAeA competitions you need to be signed off by the BAeA to compete at any of the various levels, but this isn't in any way associated with your license. The AOPA aerobatic course(s) offer an excellent framework for aerobatic instruction, but again, are not associated with your license.

There are moves afoot for EASA to introduce aerobatic ratings, but I'm not sure how far along that has moved.

No-one is going to let you hire an aerobatic type without being sure you are competent to bring it back in one piece, and if you can't point to a reasonable amount of verifiable aerobatic experience, you're not going to get far.

The bottom line is provided you get the correct tuition, there is nothing to stop you flying aerobatics in a suitable rented type, but you will need to devote the appropriate amount of time and resource to the training first.

[BillieBob]

There are moves afoot for EASA to introduce aerobatic ratings, but I'm not sure how far along that has moved.Assuming that the great EASA gravy train is not derailed in the meantime, the aerobatic rating is due to become law on 8 April 2012. You will be able to gain the rating (provided that you have at least 40 hours flight time since licence issue) by completing a 5 hour course at an approved training organisation.

There is, at present, no provision in Part-FCL for credits to be awarded for previous aerobatic experience.

[stiknruda]

Clear and concise from eharding without a mention of a single pie!

I've trained in the US/RSA/France/UK - have no rating but do think that the AOPA syllabus is good starting point. (I hold a CAA Intermediate Aerobatics Formation Display Authorisation down to 30 feet with up to 4 in the formation - can lead it or be in it).

You need to find someone competent to teach you and he/she might not necessarily hold an insructor rating if you hold a PPL - today, anyway!

As for renting - if you aren't expected to have a check out, I'd walk away!

If you've amassed your great experience via the ATC/CCF - do not be surprised if civvy competition-style aeros suddenly seems like a totally new form of flight.

Love your enthusiasm!

Stik

[foxmoth]

Hi Adam,

Agree with what has been said so far, not sure what aeros experience you have, but if you have not been trained in it I would recommend before you do aeros by yourself you have a thorough grounding in Unusual attitude and spin recovery, as an Aeros instructor I am not too concerned with a student flying perfect manouvers (that comes with practice), but I do want them to be able to recognise and recover when they get it wrong!:eek:

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

You will be able to gain the rating (provided that you have at least 40 hours flight time since licence issue) by completing a 5 hour course at an approved training organisation.

Can we expect 'Grandfather rights' or do I have to do the 5 hour course with a young inexperienced hour building Instructor teaching me what I already know after 20 years of both competition and display aerobatic experience?:rolleyes:

Cynical? Moi?

[BackPacker]

do I have to do the 5 hour course with a young inexperienced hour building instructor

Actually those can be the best fun you've ever had. I mean, if he's supposed to teach you aerobatics, then he's supposed to know how to do them better than you, not? And, more importantly, he should not only be able to demonstrate all the maneuvers to you, but also have better g-tolerance, right?

Well, let's find out. First to puke cleans out the cockpit. But not before you've got your one hour lesson in. No early quittin'.

And then, when you're back on the ground and he has recuperated, start talking about the next lesson. What sort of exciting things you want to do then. Outside avalanches, Lomchevaks, opposite positive/negative snap rolls in downlines, maybe a knife edge spin. Heck, you could probably invent some new names on the spot and make him go all white with pure fiction. (Negative snap in a tailslide anyone?)

(A dirty mind is a joy forever...:ok:)

[eharding]

Outside avalanches


Any call for an inside-outside-outside-out....oh, screw this...valanche?

I'm sure I have the recipe written down somewhere. :E

[stiknruda]

back-packer

you obviously don't own your aeroplane - lunch is on me again, fine in a restaurant - not so clever in someone's aeroplane!

I've only had one person puke in 20 years of civvy flying and that was my inexperience at reading his ability to cope with aerobatic flight. I've introduced many Pprune'rs to the joy of upside down stuff. The last thing I want is the pervading aroma of vomit in my prize possesion.

Your post on virtually every subject - it's like 3 a day/ every day. Wish I knew as much as you!!

Stik

[BackPacker]

Your post on virtually every subject - it's like 3 a day/ every day. Wish I knew as much as you!!

That's more out of boredom than knowledge though.:{

[thing]

Talking about puking as you do, has anyone actually felt nauseous at the controls? The only time I ever did, and I've done plenty of aeros and all the other good pukeable stuff, was when I did a long 6 hourish glider flight at mostly highish altitude without O2, between 8 and 9 thousand feet and I was having to work fairly hard at staying there. I had the vomit rush, you know the dry retch (sorry if you're eating lunch) every minute or so for a good half hour towards the end. Never been able to figure that one out, as passenger jets have a cabin altitude of 8,000 or so and I've never felt nauseous in one of those.

[851Pilot]

Assuming that the great EASA gravy train is not derailed in the meantime, the aerobatic rating is due to become law on 8 April 2012. You will be able to gain the rating (provided that you have at least 40 hours flight time since licence issue) by completing a 5 hour course at an approved training organisation.

Does that mean those of us that are NPPL won't be allowed to do aeros any more?

Was planning on doing the AOPA course this summer...

Iain

[stiknruda]

Apr 2012 is 13 months away. if commom sense prevailed and you did your course this summer - then surely you'd have grandfather rights and could loop and swoop with the rest of us?

stik

[BillieBob]

Does that mean those of us that are NPPL won't be allowed to do aeros any more?Only in Annex II aeroplanes

[stiknruda]

BB - care to expand, pls?

Thanks

Stik

[DB6]

People have always done unauthorised aerobatics - not that I would ever condone such a course of action you understand - but there has generally always been some respect for the authorising authority. EASA however............what a bunch of utter tossers :ugh:.

[Torque Tonight]

I have trouble keeping up with the tsunami of bureaucracy emanating from Europe.

I was trained to fly aerobatics in the RAF and have continued to fly gentle aeros in suitable aircraft on my PPL ever since. Am I right in thinking that I will lose the right to fly aerobatics unless I undertake an expensive course at a civvy flying club (which will probably not teach me anything that I haven't already learned in the RAF)?:mad:

Chance of Brit Mil vs Euro civvy recognition close to zero, and no AOPA or equivalent certificate to prove grandfather rights, if indeed they are acknowledged.

[BillieBob]

BB - care to expand, pls?The NPPL will not be valid in EASA aeroplanes, although I gather that there are attempts being made to establish credits for the NPPL against the EASA LAPL. The NPPL itself will remain valid only in Annex II aeroplanes, which will remain under the control of the national authorities.

Whilst it is difficult to believe that there will not be some form of credit for experienced aerobatic pilots towards the aerobatics rating, there are no procedures included in the EASA 'Opinion' and time is running short to get them included. The fact is that grandfathering is not particularly high on the agenda as most EU member states already issue an aerobatic rating and, therefore, don't need grandfather rights. It will be easier to arrange credit for ex-military pilots for the aerobatic rating as these arrangements are left to the national authorities to determine.

There have been, and continue to be many assumptions made regarding the willingness of EASA to bend to the wishes of the various representative bodies. However, experience with previous competencies that have been transferred to the Agency (e.g. Part 145, Part 147, etc.) indicate that it would be wise believe nothing until it appears print. EASA bureaucrats are both inept and devious and are not to be trusted.

[BEagle]

1. The EASA Aerobatic Rating will not become mandatory until 8 Apr 2015.
2. At the CAA's request, AOPA, BAeA, BGA and the CAA are working together (harmoniously) to ensure that appropriate 'grandfathering' will apply and that a seamless transition will apply.
3. The likelihood is that a couple of minor tweaks to the current AOPA/BAeA 'Basic' aerobatic certificate will be sufficient to form the training requirement for the EASA Aerobatic Rating.
4. Credit will apply for any previous aerobatic training/experience.
5. Both the CAA and the IAOPA representatives on the EASA part-FCL Partnership Group will be tabling proposed amendments (specifically the pre-course flight experience requirements :rolleyes:) to reduce current €urocratic proposals for the Aerobatic Rating.

So, calm down dears, there are still 4 years before you have to hold an Aerobatic Rating, so don't make any rushed decisions just yet!

[B4aeros]

Thanks BEagle, good to know that it's being worked on.

I notice from this AOPA UK page (http://www.aopa.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=306&Itemid=220)that competent but un-certificated pilots such as Torque Tonight should have a reasonable route to an EASA aerobatic rating:
A candidate who already has reasonable aerobatic experience, who wishes to obtain any of the AOPA Aerobatic Certificates can do so by applying for a flight competency test with any qualified instructor who is registered with AOPA for the purpose of conducting such tests.Not perfect, but manageable.

[Torque Tonight]

Useful info. Thanks chaps.

[BEagle]

".....Bring your chequebook, electronic transfer would be even better (we'll keep your data on file) and we'll smile nicely as your money comes our way"

A bit like paying $14 for approval for travelling to the so-called 'land of the free' - and finding that payment by credit card is the only possible payment method......:\ Of course Uncle Spam won't put your details in some database, will he......:( ?

[Justiciar]

Whilst it is difficult to believe that there will not be some form of credit for experienced aerobatic pilots towards the aerobatics rating, there are no procedures included in the EASA 'Opinion' and time is running short to get them included. The fact is that grandfathering is not particularly high on the agenda as most EU member states already issue an aerobatic rating and, therefore, don't need grandfather rights. It will be easier to arrange credit for ex-military pilots for the aerobatic rating as these arrangements are left to the national authorities to determine.

This is a typical EASA c*ck up and perhaps those negotiating with them need to adopt more overt signs of naked contempt for the whole process and those who have drafted these regulations. Te fact that they may not come in until 2015 is of little comfort as it merely postpones the awful day. The position appears to be that:


They have not said how instructors for the new rating will be created as currently of course no one is qualified to train or instruct for it and there are no transitional arrangements or provisions for grandfather rights in Part FCL!
the rating only applies to EASA aircraft, so Annex II are unaffected
you will still need a form of national licence to fly Annex II
the CAA plan to make local regulations to validate an EASA licence for Annex II in UK airspace, but that means you won't be able to fly your tiger moth to France without some form of reciprocal arrangement in place in France, Germany, Holland etc
those who don't have or want an EASA licence will still need a national licence to fly Annex II (which includes gliders, microlights etc)


The result of this dog's breakfast is that you can fly aerobatics without a rating on a permit aircraft (including Extra 230, Christen Eagle, Pitts S1S, Chipmunk, Tiger Moth, some S2As, Yak 50/52, Spitfire!) but will require this "solution looking for a problem" rating to fly aeros in an S2B/C, Super Decathlon, Extra 300, Cap 10, Bolkow Junior (those on C of A as opposed to permit) and S1s and S2As which are on C of A currently.

[FlyingKiwi_73]

Talking about puking as you do, has anyone actually felt nauseous at the controls? The only time I ever did, and I've done plenty of aeros and all the other good pukeable stuff, was when I did a long 6 hourish glider flight at mostly highish altitude without O2, between 8 and 9 thousand feet and I was having to work fairly hard at staying there. I had the vomit rush, you know the dry retch (sorry if you're eating lunch) every minute or so for a good half hour towards the end. Never been able to figure that one out, as passenger jets have a cabin altitude of 8,000 or so and I've never felt nauseous in one of those.


Yep happened to me at barely 2000ft, i felt hot nauseous and was reaching for the vents, had pax on board and did not want to alarm, no turbulence and plenty to look at (no flat spaces, merging horizons)
Its happend twice to me and in both times i've made a beeline back to the airfeild, in the process of making the call, getting into decent and circuit i feel much better when i'm occupied?

I've heard some people get some thing called 'breakaway' where its an onset of vertigo in the cockpit, all though i don't get vertigo i have had the nuasea.

I have done some aerobatics, not a huge fan but never felt sick?