FAA approves iPad as EFB

[QFF]

FAA approves iPads for pilots' electronic charts - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2011/TECH/innovation/02/28/FAA.approves.iPads/index.html)

Interesting precedent....

[CharlieCharlie78]

They must be turned off for Take off until the Captain has turned off the Seat Belt sign as with all electrical devices.:ugh::=

[compressor stall]

CASA's semi official position is to allow whatever the FAA allow in terms of equipment.

Obviously the airline needs to develop its own procedures and trial. There are at least two airlines presently trialling iPads inthe cockpit.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

iPad 2 (http://www.apple.com/au/ipad/) looks pretty damn good.

The Apple website even shows an iPad with an approach plate here (http://www.apple.com/au/ipad/business/apps/) and below:

http://images.apple.com/au/ipad/business/apps/images/screens/Jeppesen_20100901.jpg

What are the requirements for backup? Must have two iPads onboard? Preflight must include checking battery status? Does the iPad have to belong to the company and is it subject to a maintenance regime?

Looking forward to reading the FAA (and subsequently CASA) docs on this.:ok:

FRQ CB

[AussieNick]

Hopefully CASA get their act into gear and approve these for Australian operation. I'd expect that as a precaution you'd have to either a) have them connected to a power source (hardwired?) while in use or b) ensure there is a power connector available in the event of the battery running low / dying

[remoak]

What are the requirements for backup? Must have two iPads onboard? Preflight must include checking battery status? Does the iPad have to belong to the company and is it subject to a maintenance regime?


Backup would be paper plates. No need to check batteries if you hard-wire it (which is pretty straightforward). No need for it to be subject to a maintenance regime, as long as it has an up-to-date database, there is nothing to maintain! Oh, and the latest ones have serial ports, so you can interface directly with your GPS for moving-map functionality...

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Yeah... paper backups would be the obvious first fail-safe but if the whole point is to get away from relying on paper (including manually amending paper versions:yuk::yuk::yuk:) then what backup?

Amendments are the bane of all pilots' existence and even backup paper copies need to be amended. Is this the answer?

Would I send my family on a flight some dark and stormy night knowing that Captain Chuckle's whole flight bag fits into one pocket in his cargo pants? Do I let my family fly with a pilot who wears cargo pants?:=

Hmm, for those of us still in GA-Land imagine rocking up to a Renewal with a 'seasoned' ATO and shooting an NDB referencing the iPlate (cheesy name that just rolled out of my head as I sit here eating my similarly cheesy yet salty Kraft iSnack 2.0:8) with a little moving aeroplane over the outbound and inbound reversal lines. If he chose to 'fail' your iPad it'd be like 'failing' your up-to-date DAPs or Jepps.

I don't even own an iPad but I'm already salivating over getting my hands on the new Reg / Order and playing "What If"... kind of like Dungeons and Dragons for pilots really.:bored:

Damn; I still don't know why don't I have any friends? (Other pilots do not count as friends.) :(:(:(

FRQ CB

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Backup?

I have had enough laptops and tablets to NOT trust a single EFB to not **** itself at a critical time.

For me the big advantage of EFB's is that when you download the latest update - all your amendments are done. I print out copies of the plates I expect to use on a flight and have them handy in a folder. Then the issue is what if you end up going somewhere unexpected?

Are you prepared to accept the risk that you single EFB won't **** itself? I'm not - so I carry a spare identical tablet!

And cause I like multiple redundancy (apart from the engine!) - I have all the plates on OzRunways on my iPhone. Small - but do-able in an emergency!

Dr :8

[Shagpile]

iPlate

Damn - didn't think of that one !

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Well,
Maybe that's it Doc. Carry one EFB (iPod size) and a backup, either a phone sized backup or simply printing the few charts you know you'll need (destination and alternate).

If you're headed into Adelaide for example you can probably trust the EFB far enough to only print out the 23 ILS and 05 VOR. 99% of the time the EFB will get you all the rest of the plates like STARs etc but if you're having a bad day you can always ask to be vectored to the approach and specify that you require one of the two plates you are now limited to.

iFRQ CB

[redsnail]

EJM in the states did the trial and the FAA were happy. I haven't seen how the trial was conducted but they did do decompression events at high flight levels to see how it would cope. It obviously coped well.

On the Hawker we run Electronic charts on the MFDs. 2 independent file servers with their own batteries. In the event of a double generator failure, the #1 file server can be accessed independently of the main batteries.
We do not carry paper approach charts.
The weight and space saving alone made the exercise worth while.

A couple of our colleagues run the Jeps app on their own iPad. It does a very good job and would be a much cheaper option than whatever stand alone system you can buy now. In a small cockpit, the biggest hassle is where to put the iPad while you use it.

[morno]

In a small cockpit, the biggest hassle is where to put the iPad while you use it

You don't put it away. You close the Jepp App and you open up one of the many games you should have installed on it, or you open Safari and surf PPRuNe, :E:E.

morno

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Except when the 'Captain has switched on the fasten seatbelt sign in preparation for landing' at which time 'all portable electronic devices must be switched off and stowed'

With apologies to CharlieCharlie78

FRQ CB

[redsnail]

FRQ CB, thread drift, love your note under your name. :ok:

[Chimbu chuckles]

knowing that Captain Chuckle's whole flight bag fits into one pocket in his cargo pants?

Oi!!

I resemble that remark!

Ozrunways on Ipad and Iphone...job done, for private ops anyway. The trick would be to pull out the Iphone first so said ATO fails THAT and then revert to Ipad:E

[JCJ]

We need a iStrap to strap the thing to our knee, and a screen lock to prevent any inadvertent touching changing the view.

[Capt Claret]

Saw the iStrap thingy on a US web site this week, and for the screen lock, double press the Home key, this'll bring up a mini-list of icons at the bottom of the screen. Scroll to extreme left, there you'll find the screen lock button. Tap. :8

[Sunfish]

CASA is apparently preparing a new part 91 - Flight operations, and on its website it says that there will be "strict control of portable electronic devices".

I think that means that there will be unique Australian requirements regarding how any of this stuff, from a hand held GPS upwards, can be used.

I would be very surprised if these requirements were not highly onerous.

[Pinky the pilot]

I think I'll just stick to the paper versions. Less things to go wrong!:ok:

[AussieNick]

Pinky, i reckon many moons ago, the old salts said a similar thing about GPS.....

[SeniorEagle]

a very progressive step

[JCJ]

Is there anything in PANS OPS that dictate the minimum size of the plates to be used during an approach? Thus killing the option of iPhone backups?

[compressor stall]

The captain's eyesight?

Might be a few wanting the iPad in A3... :)

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Yes Chimbu,

I was expecting you to post your 4,289th post in reply:D

CASA is apparently preparing a new part 91 - Flight operations, and on its website it says that there will be "strict control of portable electronic devices".

I think that means that there will be unique Australian requirements regarding how any of this stuff, from a hand held GPS upwards, can be used.

I would be very surprised if these requirements were not highly onerous.

Well, no doubt that by time this new Reg comes out it will be titled 2011 by which time the real world will have moved on to 2021 (CASR 1998, if only the trains were as efficient as CASA regulatory reform :ok:).

I hear a funny acronym once for CASA, it was something Against Safety in Aviation. I can't for the life of me remember what it was... Cats, Corndogs, Candycanes, Canapes... nah... can't remember. It'll probably come to me when I least expect it.

FRQ CB

[Counter-rotation]

FRQ Charlie Bravo,

In my (limited?! :p) experience, that "word" you're looking for generally DOES come along when you ARE least expecting it! Well said... :}

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

"Canberrans", that was the word. "Canberrans" as in people from Canberra.

Canberrans Against Safety in Aviation

Yep, came to me this morning.

FRQ CB

[Chimbu chuckles]

As the originator of this particular expression I can safely say its none of the above...and its not Cretins Against Sensible Aviation either. :E

[Aeromuz]

Motion Computing CL900 - Rugged Slate Tablet PC - Tablet PC Australia (http://www.tabletpc.com.au/product/3732/45314/motion-computing-cl900-rugged-slate-tablet-pc)

This looks like it may be a contender as an alternative to the Ipad for aviation use.

Could load Jeppview & Flightdeck plus have Command Flight Planner to compliment.

Not sure of price but looks like it could work well.

[Ixixly]

The CL900 is already in use by some pilots on these forums, or an earlier version at least!! Personally i'm very interested in when getting one of these when they come out and was thinking of combining it with Sentient VFR Software which has official ASA charts which are updated every 6months and can be printed out as well as the use of a Moving Map GPS included with Sentient VFR. Looks pretty neat and as it uses a full version of Windows 7 could save me having to buy my next laptop as this could fill the space!

[sleeve of wizard]

I'll stick to my dual class3 EFB's, backed up by my IPAD (soon to be IPAD 2) and MacBook Air. Now that I've got all that off to do some circuits.:ok:

[bankrunner]

Swedish regulator has approved the iPad as a Class 2 EFB, apparently one of the cargo operators there is using them on the F50.

Swedish cargo carrier Amapola to use iPad as EFB P3air (http://www.p3air.com/2011/swedish-cargo-carrier-amapola-to-use-ipad-as-efb/)

[Capn Bloggs]

I'll stick to my dual class3 EFB's, backed up by my IPAD
As if Class 3 EFBs need to be backed up by an ipad.

[sleeve of wizard]

believe me the IPAD is alot quicker than the EFB.

[Ixixly]

Would that not depend on the type of EFB your using Sleeve of Wizard?

Also, can anyone point me to any legislation on what constitutes an EFB? I've so far only found AWB 00-017 which seems to touch on the subject and the meanings of Class 1, 2 and 3 and also the Software Classes A, B and C but nothing too specific and the only material referenced are FAA Regs, I was kind of hoping for a bit more!

[sleeve of wizard]

The type of EFB is standard fit to the aircraft I fly, btw it operates 2 operating systems, windows and linux.

[mrdeux]

An ipad is a million percent better than the hideous OIT display of charts in the A380. Hard to work out who certified that, but it's unreadable, very slow, and ****s itself at the most inconvenient times.

For an example of what it's like to use...take all of your charts, cut them into thirds (because you can't show a complete chart and actually read it), and then take up to 8 seconds to change 'pages'.

[Old Akro]

Motion computing CL900 is not yet launched. It is due in the next 3 months. Motion have announced a price of under USD$900. Its pretty much a replacement for the aging LS800. It has a number of advantages over an ipad. Its printer support is better, being a Windows 7 device it will run Jeppview & Flitedeck as well as other flight planning software such as Command Flight Planner. The Jepp software has moving map support so a proper GPS engine can be used (As opposed to the Apple "assisted GPS"). Given Motion's history with the " view anywhere" screen technology, it may have better daylight visibility than ipad.

In the US ipad approval is currently being given operator by operator. At least one regional airline has approval for ipad use. The back up is the co-pilot's ipad. No paper. See avweb for details.

[Red Jet]

a proper GPS engine can be used (As opposed to the Apple "assisted GPS")
You seem to be misinformed as to what "assisted GPS" actually entails. It works EXACTLY the same as regular GPS when used in an aircraft away from Wi-Fi networks and mobile phone towers, but have the ADDED advantage of being able to use geo-referenced Wi-Fi networks and triangulation from mobile phone towers to give positioning information when GPS signals are compromised.

[Old Akro]

RedJet

In my reading, I understood that Apple have never fully disclosed what "Assisted GPS" is and I thought it primarily used mobile tower triangulation rather than GPS. But I'll stand to be corrected.

However, while Apple do not disclose the GPS engine specs, I'm sure it will be only a 1 Hz engine which I would not regard as adequate and it will suffer satellite reception degradation when its on your knee in the cockpit. I've certainly seen some ipad reviews for aviation charts where the reviewer has had difficulty with the ipad GPS signal (aviation consumer magazine).

Call me old fashioned, but I like a separate 5Hz engine on the glare shield with a good view of the sky. I understand this can be achieved with the ipad by using a bluetooth engine, but until Jeppesen make flitedeck / Jeppview available for the ipad, I have a bias toward a Windows device with a Garmin USB GPS engine as my primary reference. When ipad2 becomes available here, I'll use it as secondary reference to my LS800 (which will be replaced by a CL900 when its released). To keep sleepy CASA happy, there is paper in the back.

[Red Jet]

The GPS engine in the iOS products is actually remarkably capable. It is a fully fledged 12 channel GPS and my iPad receives a perfect GPS signal while taxiing on the ground, while mounted next to the steering tiller on the 777. Useless in the flightdeck while in flight though (as are ALL other handheld GPS's I have tried on the flitedeck) due to the electric windshields on the B777, effectively blanking any faint GPS signals attempt at reaching me in my little goldfish bubble. Taking the iPad back into the cabin, holding it anywhere near a passenger window yields a very good reception on both iPad and iPhone. I am picking up the iPad 2 in LA next weekend and look forward to having a play with the added functionality of the built-in gyroscope. The CL900 looks very nice, but I have almost weaned myself off the evil Windows world and cannot see myself go back in the foreseeable future. Don't get me wrong - I can't stand the Apple corporate philosophy and the closed software architecture, but LOVE their products. The user experience on the iOS products is just unparalleled in the Android/Windows Mobile world.

[JCJ]

Gaining some attention outside aviation circles.


iPads to be used in airline cockpits? - Navigation - Travel Tech (http://www.cnet.com.au/ipads-to-be-used-in-airline-cockpits-339310911.htm)

[bankrunner]

I can certainly say the GPS engine in the iPad works great in the DH82. Excellent view of the sky at all times :ok: