Can this be true?!

[TrevorDal]

While idling away my afternoon I got taking to a young budding instructor at YSBK who was filling me in on what the 'go' is for those 'lucky' enough to be starting out in our glorious world of aviation. It seems that one of the longest running and more respected names at YSBK has taken instructorcide to a new level....

To get the job in the first place you are subjected to the boss telling you how all your previous experience and training are wrong/badly done/pointless/worth nothing/have no structure/all of the above.

You are expected to work duty times of 6am to 6pm 6 days a week (the devils number if ever I saw it!). Of course during this duty time you get paid only for the flying hours you do, but are expected to do all other menial labour about the place, gratis.

Your pay is a whopping $27 an hour. Oh, and you need to take your tax and super out of that as you'll be subcontracting under your own ABN.

You will be expected to pay upwards of $1000 for your check to line, during which you'll have your confidence shredded by the above boss.

You'll then be expected to undertake further training to keep the job, including sim work to get up to speed with their own syllabus for IFR - at your cost of course. This will be at least 2 sessions a week.

You'll need to purchase at least 1, bur preferably 3 spare headsets for your students use, and also because you may need to do some scenic flights. This needs to be done inside your first month.

Once you've agreed to all the above, all you need to do to get the 'job' is to pay the company a bond of $750 committing to a year and you're living the high life!

If you can't cope with any of this then you'll have a thinly veiled insulting message about you on the company's website and be roundly slagged to all and sundry. Oh and your $750 is gone with it.


Does this REALLY still happen? Paying for your line checks? 72 hour weeks and getting paid for 10 hours of flying? Paid under the award, and having diddly work covers and the like? Then being BONDED for this honour?

Other than half of it being illegal, my heart goes out to the youngsters out there trying to make a way in aviation and having this in front of them. These operators need to go the way of the dinosaurs for the sake of everybody.

[The Butcher's Dog]

Exactly why airlines these days can get away with having pilots pay their way into the cockpit........what an industry!:ugh: Like paying your way to an improved Stockholm Syndrome really....

[The Green Goblin]

I've seen worse.

Generally the Pilots cause this situation. The keen ones hang around looking for scraps at the flying school, and slowly over time the above situation develops.

I remember one instructor at my school worked 90 paid flying hours in his first year, and was there full time including weekends.

[Kippers7]

Coming from a background in the construction industry to aviation (currently undertaking CPL training) it still amazes me the work and pay conditions in aviation. The amount of effort, passion and money (if you don't have the luxury of your parents forking out the cash) that goes into being a qualified pilot is so much more than any position in the construction, but with no reward but the ability to make some cash for doing something you love.....

[Hempy]

I don't get the gist of your post Goblin. What exactly are you saying? It's the pilots who are 'keen' to try and break into the industry by 'hang'ing around flying schools looking for a job that are responsible for the crap conditions they are offered?

[das Uber Soldat]

Pretty much bang on hempy.

I do however fail to see why the instructors don't take the employer to FWA for sham contracting.

[eocvictim]

I had to double check the initial post date. Hang on...

Yep it really says 3rd Mar 2011 20:21... :ugh:

:yuk:

Carry on.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Australian Federation of Air Pilots (http://afap.org.au)

FRQ CB

[TrevorDal]

I did mention AFAP however the instructor in question was dubious about causing a stir as they didn't want to get a reputation as a trouble causer. Also I wonder if this well known CFI's reputation as a loud mouthed dragon of a lady also puts them off?

[eocvictim]

I really feel for young kids who haven't got the life experience or have a mentor to help them get away from shonky operators and realise that no one cares about their opinion. So many still believe that these dodgy companies control their future and wont confront them; if only they knew that the these operators are known only for their bad reputation.

[Case Sensitive]

She is not in a position to be disparaging of anyone's standards. Some of the exchanges between her and ATC are almost farcical and have had me laughing at first and then shocked at their amateurishness. I reckon even the US controllers would be having a laugh when she is departing the US on one of those ferry flights they are so famous for.:E

[polair911]

I think I know who you guys are talking about, if im right, then that could explain why their instructors (except for the senior) are forever changing!?!

However I gotta say their aircrafts are in top condition!!

[b_sta]

I think I know who you guys are talking about, if im right, then that could explain why their instructors (except for the senior) are forever changing!?!

Ain't that the truth. None of their instructors seem to last more than a year, and it's not surprising either if those are the conditions. But then, perhaps that's also the reason why they're viewed as being no Curtis, Whitworth or Johnston.

[40Deg STH]

Now isn't it against labor laws to be a sub-contractor to 1 company?
If so, then why not name and shame these schools and get the AFAP, Labor dept and news papers involved.
If they can't afford to pay correctly, they can't afford to be in aviation.
There is also an issue of duty times being broken here too. Where is CASA??? Turning a blind eye??:}
NAME,SHAME and SHUTDOWN.
Where are their "senior" pilots? Are they helping to stand up for their junior colleagues?
Know wonder our flying schools are so sub-standard.
Also name the FOI who allows this to happen.

[ContactMeNow]

Gee sounds like these people on the east coast talk to some of the operators on the west coast... :mad:

Sounds like the exact same sham as an operator out at YPJT.. :ugh:

I hope the Fair Work Ombudsman shuts them down, fines them and then throws their arses into gaol. Then they will learn what its like to be f@*k'd up the arse...

[Neptunus Rex]

$27 per hour? Outrageous! I was paid $20 per hour instructing on Cessnas at Parafield in 1887 - yes, 24 years ago.

[polair911]

$27 per hour? Outrageous! I was paid $20 per hour instructing on Cessnas at Parafield in 1887 - yes, 24 years ago.

I am surprise you're still flying at the age of 124!! :E

On the other hand, again it's back to the "if this is the school you guys are talking about", their flying standard seems to be alright, flown with them (and a few others) before.

[neville_nobody]

Simple answer is if people boycotted the operator then things will change. If pilots are willing to accept the conditions this is what will happen. Same will happen to airlines if pilots don't stand up.

However the issue then is how do people get enough experience to move on without working for free/sub par wages/scams.

[anothertwit]

well neville, the best way is to gaini some hours is to go and do some hard work and real flying 'out bush' and learn what an aircraft can really do! that is the sort of experience that will save your ass! not sitting in the right hand seat twiddling your thumbs!

bit of thread drift i know, but selling your soul to gain a few hours only leads to a situation where the person who gets the job isn't the best for it but the one who has the biggest bank account!

my two cents...........:E

[TrevorDal]

Turns out this place has been changing instructors like nobodies business. As for help from a 'senior' instructor - well the only ones at BK are junior 3's and they're the ones getting shafted.

For those urging to get AFAP involved and shut them down - how many budding young pilots would be willing to do this and get themselves a name that could finish them before they've started? Surely this is where AFAP should be proactively taking action to protect the interests of our future pilots?

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

TrevorDal,

We think alike but it must be remembered that the Federation (as well as all the others) is a Union of and for Members.

Low union membership yields little union power. No truer words can be spoken than to say that no union can afford to fight for the rights of a base which does not itself support the union by means of membership. That's the very idea.

Unions do not set the safety net (the Award is the bare minimum, not the standard).

how many budding young pilots would be willing to do this and get themselves a name that could finish them before they've started?

On the contrary; provided the complaint is just and accurate then, in the unlikely event that the pilot does get a name for themselves, such a name will resound more positively with any operator worth their salt and certainly with the profession.

Of course, this is unfortunately very hard to see when you have 200 hours in your logbook and everybody is telling you to not make waves.

The big big big problem is the 'just gotta get through GA alive' syndrome followed by the lack of unity in close second.

FRQ CB

PS, for $400 a year ($34 per month) even a struggling pilot on $40K can make it happen. As a casual making maybe $25K that's $250 a year ($21 a month). Union dues are not that high.

[glenb]

I think that if you slam these pilots taking these jobs you are very misguided. Its not the pilots. Its the operators and owners of these companies. It is potentially a safety issue, and CASA should exercise its power to investigate and make operators PROVE that pilots are working with conditions that are not a detriment to safety.

I think that furthermore before slamming these pilots, we need to have a good hard look at ourselves. Its us in the older generation that created this situation that allows it to happen, and we can be very quick to blame the young guys starting out.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

It's not about age, it's about choices to stand up for one's self, one's profession and one's responsibilities. For example Flight and Duty rules put the onus on both the Operator and the Pilot equally for a reason, the pilot has a responsibility to their passengers as does the Operator.

Sure the next generation always inherits the **** sandwich but in no way does that mean that said next generation can just sit around waiting to be handed a good gig.

No, it is not just the young. Yes the young need to be involved in fixing things.

Uniting all ages, skill levels, licences etc in an orderly way is the key.

FRQ CB

[TrevorDal]

I agree that AFAP is there to serve it's members, after all that's what a union is all about, protection for it's members by unity. However, I also think that by being proactive in situations like this they will be sending out a message to the new pilots coming through (not to mention the older hats who maybe don't see the need to join) that the union has a very important part to play in our industry and show the benefits of being a member.

The subject of the original post has today sent their application in, so there's one step in the right direction. As for the company involved I'm half a mind to put my nose in the door and give them a piece of my mind myself.

[Jabawocky]

You are suggesting the AFAP should adopt the "Pay It Forward" principal. In cases like this they should seriously consider it. I would like to see it though!

If what you guys are saying is true, its time the operators would held to account somehow.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Onya 'young budding instructor at YSBK' definitely a step in the right direction.

Jaba, that's an excellent choice of words and I had to stop and reconsider TrevorDal's argument. I knew what he was getting at but put in the terms of 'paying it forward' gets the point across very bluntly and succinctly. Even if it makes me think of Haley Joel Osment and Helen Hunt :yuk:

I agree that there's a very thin line between looking after Members and potential Members. At the end of the day of course the golden rule dictates what the Federation can and cannot spend its gold on, despite what they may want to do (they are of course people who were once 200 hour pilots themselves).

I do believe that the best way to show the benefits of Membership and unity is by examples of times that they have stuck up for Members (the recent victim of JetStar Management is a recent example of a pilot who would be very glad his Membership dues were in good standing, another great advertisement (http://afap.org.au/html/s02_article/article_view.asp?art_id=293&nav_cat_id=209&nav_top_id=112) for Membership is the phone number that they provide urging Pilots who are Members and are involved in an Incident to contact them first BEFORE speaking to ATSB, CASA, Insurance etc despite what rules they may spout from the Act or Regs).