RN Looking to buy an MPA

[bluetail]

In the last Sunday Times there was apparently an article speculating on the fact that the RN is looking to buy its own MPA. Although I can understand why, in that they would want something to protect their SSBN,s but at a budget of £1Bn where on earth would the funding come from.

Why would it be £1Bn anyway, as force of say 6 CN235MPA,s would come in way way below that.

[bvcu]

sure that wouldnt be a problem for our procurement system ............. would be quite cheap really !

[andyy]

If they want it, then clearly given the SofS recent pronouncements then they'd have to cut other things from the budget to an equivelant value of the forecast through life costs. MCMVs, a Type 23 or 2, CHF??

[E L Whisty]

I doubt whether the Secretary of Savings in Defence would even bother to read such a proposal. He would never get it past a PM who is more left wing than T Bliar and appears to be as effective as the fraud from Fife.

[LFFC]

Navy to buy new aircraft (http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/local/east-hampshire/navy_to_buy_new_aircraft_1_2437696)

Looks like another increase in the cost of Trident. :*

[minigundiplomat]

Between the cascade of letters to the Telegraph et al during, and particularly since, the SDSR process, in addition to announcements like this one lead me to only one conclusion.

The RN surely doesn't get it. The penny has not dropped, and their upper echelons don't seem to have grasped the fact that not only is there no more money, but in fact other things are going to have to get the axe.

I know there is elements of politics, and horsetrading in this, and they feel the need to set out their stall, but they are seriously deluded if they think the treasury is going to part with £1Bn at any point in the near future.

[colonel cluster]

I wonder how it feels for the RAF to have their own games played back at them??? That's what it is after all, rather than working together!

El Colonel!

[Heathrow Harry]

with a few mods, Minister, these BN Islanders will do the job for far less than £ 1 Bn

[roush]

BAe might have a few airframes going very cheap. Might need a little welding work around the wings but I'm sure the RN can find a few people left to do the job.

[BEagle]

Of course, it's not just the cost of airframes which needs to be considered...

Crew training - if the RN wants to use 100% RN crews, they'll need to develop a sustainable pilot and rear crew training system of their own. That's EFT, BFT and AFT/type conversion, plus ongoing recurrent training. For rear crew mission specialists, the training requirement would probably be even more expensive - you can 'buy' civil pilots and convert them, but you cannot do the same thing with mission crew.

Maintenance - unless the RN manages to join someone else's aircraft maintenance organisation, there's the cost of an approved type maintenance programme to consider.

Infrastructure - the RN will need a method of tasking, supporting and analysing all sensor products from whichever aircraft system they choose. Then the cost of disseminating the intelligence to the end-user.

Just a few issues. But good luck to the RN and I hope that they pull this off, no matter who flies and operates the aircraft. My gut feeling is that they are far more influential and creative than the oiks who run light blue these days, so have a pretty good chance of success...:ok:

[davejb]

MGD -
yep, you kind of imagine the (short) conversation going like this:

Admiral chappy - "We intend to spend £1Bazillion on our own MPA, unlike Nimrod this one wil only cost £1Bn".

Government roach - "Ah, and where is this money coming from?"

Admiral - "We'll cancel HMS Mortgage and HMS Annual Bonus"

Roach - "Good, well cancel them, and instead of spending the gazillion you saved, put it into this envelope and send it to us instead".

Stunned Admiral, now minus 2 frigates, exits dejectedly, wincing as he hears...

"And don't forget to put a first class stamp on the envelope".


- I think, about now, somebody might be asking the navy where exactly it has managed to produce a billion quid from....

Dave

[davejb]

Beagle,
I imagine the 'infrastructure' probably still exists - maritime always worked hand in hand with the RN anyway, and the ops/int/acoustics side of RAF and RN have worked together since --- oooh, 1940 or so. Some of us spent as often deploying to ships and naval bases (in my case I am pleased to say 'for no more than a fortnight at a time*') as we did to RAF bases in support of maritime ops.

Dave

* The RN were always charming hosts, by the way, but there's just something about washing shirts in a tin pail when the ship has a perfectly serviceable laundry service that lets you know there's a sort of mindshift required that you are strangely unwilling to contemplate. Don't get me started on some of the navy's more esoteric habits....

[BEagle]

I imagine the 'infrastructure' probably still exists - maritime always worked hand in hand with the RN anyway, and the ops/int/acoustics side of RAF and RN have worked together since --- oooh, 1940 or so. Some of us spent as often deploying to ships and naval bases (in my case I am pleased to say 'for no more than a fortnight at a time*') as we did to RAF bases in support of maritime ops.

Quite so. But unfortunately the RAF no longer has a maritime capability, so why would it still need the associated infrastructure?

Not that I'm saying that it shouldn't.....

[alfred_the_great]

Allegedly it's being procured as a replacement for the SKASaCs, and solely in the ASuW arena....

[The Old Fat One]

Some of us spent as often deploying to ships and naval bases (in my case I am pleased to say 'for no more than a fortnight at a time*') as we did to RAF bases in support of maritime ops.


Spent a week on HMS Malborough circa 1994 - awful experience. Because the T23 started life as little more than a tug with towed array, it had zero space for people. Then some Admiral said "good lord a warship with no weapons - sticks some guns and wizz bangy things on it". Of course weapons need weapons operators, cue even less space. The PWO told me it had the fuel to sail halfway round the globe, but only enough food space for a couple of weeks. I spent my seven days on an airbed sharing the Harpoon Power Room (cupboard more like) with a submariner. Never again.

PS no apologies for the thread drift....all these Nimrod threads need to slowly drift away.............

[TBM-Legend]

The RN has fixed wing ASW. Two Swordfish aircraft at RNHF. Expand this, call it a squadron, build four more replica Stringbags, find the ASV in the Museum and voila a stealth ASW platform that will cost very little to run. Worked 70 years ago, why not now?:ok:

+I forgot...give it to BAE and have a billion pound overrun...and be ten years late.:8

[Hardly Worth it]

Maybe the recently sold Jetsream T3's should have been utilised ! They've even had Royal Navy painted on the side, there's a saving for starters !

:ok:


HWI

[GeeRam]

The RN has fixed wing ASW. Two Swordfish aircraft at RNHF. Expand this, call it a squadron, build four more replica Stringbags, find the ASV in the Museum and voila a stealth ASW platform that will cost very little to run. Worked 70 years ago, why not now?

+I forgot...give it to BAE and have a billion pound overrun...and be ten years late.

In fairness to BAe, considering the amount of support they give to the RNHF now (Swordfish NF389 is at BAe Brough undergoing a full restoration) and in years past (Sea Fury restoration at Brough, Swordfish W5856 restoration at Brough, Sea Hawk at Dunsfold, Firefly Griffon 58 re-engine etc.,etc) that's probably a 'dig too far' .........

[Jabba_TG12]

"Because the T23 started life as little more than a tug with towed array"

:D:D:D


Well, it amused me, anyway....

[Tourist]

T23 may be a total bag of poo compared to a real warship, but the one thing it is not is short on space.
It is lean manned compared to T42/T22!

[CathayBrat]

Ah, the mighty T22, batch 2. During initial sea time there were 22 of us in a cabin area that you were legally allowed to keep 3 pigs!:eek: Very cosy. And the towed array was above us, full of fuel, and a few leaks. Good times. T23, did not enjoy time on those.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

I'm not sure that the current Japanese constitution allows for the export of arms. That said, I'd buy a Toyota before I'd buy a Rover any day of the week!

Duncs:ok:

[getsometimein]

Unfortunately the XP-1 isn't an option...

First of all it isn't a brand new design... It was originally designed in the 70's as a Japanese Jet copy of the P3... It was shelved when a deal was struck for a fleet of Orions, and has been dusted off recently.

The second problem is that Japan doesn't export arms, so there is no way we could get any...

P8's the only real option unfortunately... We'd need at least 7 to have any chance of doing 24 hour ops...

[F3sRBest]

Arghhh

When will people realise that it's NOT the Navy buying this! Cdre Kings is HoC(UWE) in MOD CENTRE!! Yes, he wears a RN uniform, but he is NOT in the RN Chain of command nor does the RN magicly suddenly have a £1bn to play with!

Wake up!

[getsometimein]

Nor are F3's "best" as you state in your name....

Doesn't stop people arguing over options and what-ifs though...

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

F4sRBest,

It's a rumour network! Nobody would be interested if HoC(UWE) was interested in an MPA - that's his job after all. It sounds much better if the FAA were about to take over part of the RAF. Then the army could take over the rest. Apart from the Typhoon.

Duncs:ok:

[F3sRBest]

getsometimein

I bow to your experience of F3s then ;)

Duncs,

I know, I know.....! ;)

[andyy]

As I have said elsewhere, I understand that the "RN MPA" study is in actual fact a study in to how to replace the capabilities currently provided by the Sea King ASaC Mk7 for when the SKs are retired. Perfectly normal business.

[davejb]

That'll be a non-story, based on incorrect reporting then?

Kinda makes you wonder how
'We might like to upgrade the Sea King'

turned into

he MoD confirmed last week that the navy wanted to buy its own maritime patrol aircraft to track enemy submarines to replace the Nimrods, which are being broken up for scrap.

and

The programme is being run by Commodore Simon Kings with a team made up of naval officers.

doesn't it?

For £1Bn I'd imagine you could have a very nice Sea King....they could all have a walnut dash and minibar, or something.

FFTA - I'm sure these were jolly nice chaps, but as an ex dry man I have to say that they usually seemed to have even less idea of where the bad guys were at than the wet team....

Dave

[Tourist]

Cathay!

You must have done IST on Beaver like me then!