Morale

[sidewayspeak]

BBC News - David Cameron accused of U-turn over military covenant (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12399345)

I am not going to speculate on the general morale within the RAF, or speak for others, but I'll offer my twopenn'th.

I appreciate the economy is in dire straits and that lots of people are facing redundancy or bankruptcy. Therefore, I am glad that I still have a relatively well-paid job.

BUT, the stingy penny-pinching, changing terms and conditions sneaked through the back door, mean-spirited interpretation of rules and regulations has only served to make me less inclined to go the extra yard let alone mile. I am well and truely here on my terms now - and when it gets better, I will be off without a backward glance. I don't expect to be missed for I am just another number. Perhaps it was ever thus. But until I do go, I will be taking every penny I can get, for as little input as possible.

Up yours Dalton.

[Red Line Entry]

I think the previous poster expresses an attitude that I am seeing more and more frequently around the bazaars. While there is an acceptance that there must be cuts, a lot of people are feeling very angry that, rather than focus on the organisation, too many reductions are focusing on the individual. The pay freeze, ironically, seems to be given little attention - it's the constant shaving off of the smaller entitlements that makes individuals feel unvalued.

I share some of the sentiments, although not so much the erosion of loyalty. I've never felt much loyalty to the RAF itself or to the CAS (any of them) personally. But I do feel loyalty to my colleagues, my subordinates and my boss. And when my time comes, I too will walk out without a backwards glance.

[Si Clik]

It makes a change for the normally docile Families Federations to raise their collective voices.

Morale is indeed tumbling, tri-service and across all ranks/rates. Whilst one accepts difficult decisions, a constant barrage of 'we are all in this together' does not make the real pain any easier to bare. And the redundancies haven't even started to bite!

I fear a 'black deep chasm' in manning terms way worse than the 'black hole' caused in the early 1990s. 'Jam tomorrow' or, more likely, in 10 years time will retain no one.

:(

[Wrathmonk]

Just to play devils advocate for a minute - the interesting point will be to see how many actually PVR immediatly after the final redundancy tranches/names have been announced. Personally I don't think there will be a huge increase in applications (and outflow can always be maintained / controlled by increasing PVR wait times (as was done in the 90's!)). People bitch and people moan but how many will actually vote with their feet? Yes, people will volunteer (but not all (or any???) will be successful) for redundancy, take their options or not sign on but with plenty knocking at the door wanting to join I don't think manning in terms of pure numbers will be a problem. Granted experience levels may (will) dip but again, post 2015, if Trust-Me-Dave is to be believed we're going to be out of AFG and entering a period of consolidation and retraining.

[Whenurhappy]

Sui generis...

It depends on the individual, of course. I am on an overseas posting and we have seen our LOA savaged, along with so many other 'benefits'. Added to the additional cost of CEA (we have no option but to use UK boarding school), living in a very, very expensive place and the fact that there is no meaningful paid employment for Mrs WP, I cannot afford to stay abroad. We do not feel 'valued'. If redundancy does not beckon, I will be out the door ASAP on PVR (in old money) terms.

Certainly I am avoiding lengthy work trips away from home because of the real cost to my pocket (meals, laundry, telephone calls, el cheapo flights). Why should I subsidise the Government doing it's business over and above the tax I pay?

[Big Bear]

I think that the issue will never be about large numbers of PVRs, that just won't happen. However, the theme of the original post highlights the real issue which is people not being willing to do anything beyond that which is absolutely necessary.

The situation will probably get even worse when the new career mqnagement structure comes into force: 'So I'm not a high flyer and I'm not going to get promoted any further......secondary duties?..work late?..no thanks'

Bear

[Red Line Entry]

I don't think the issue is so much the strength vs liability question. The problem is going to be the motivation of the people who will be left. Sidewayspeak wasn't saying he's going to PVR, but he implied he'll treat the Service as if it were just another job. It's that attitude that I think is the main mind set change that is going to hit the RAF. Maybe it was coming anyway with the new generation, and it's certainly something I've seen in other European air forces, but I think it strikes at the heart of creating the 'will to win'.

[alfred_the_great]

Big Bear, what's this new CM system? I'm Dark Blue, not Light, so have not heard about this. Are you formally streamed at some point?!

[North Front]

The great shame about the current situation is:

we have 30 -odd thousand people who, for the last umpty ump years, have been willing to work late, run sports clubs, take increasing amounts of responsibility for no extra pay and maintain the 'unlimted liability' contract of being in a fighting service - all cheerfully, with a can-do spirit...

we have exposed them to increasing b*****x like 'elf and safety, JPA, EO training, gapped posts, reducing allowances...

we have seen the MOD fall in public opinion due to gross mismanagement and poor leadership and unpopular wars...

and now we stick the proverbial bat up... with a synical 'we're all in this together' .

Can we be surprised if people are 'jobsworth'?

[adminblunty]

I applied for redundancy in the 2007/8 redundancy round and didn't get it, within 30 seconds of finding out I handed my PVR app to my boss. From chatting to the guys in PSF that day I found out I wasn't the only one to do so that week. The potential for redundancy gets people thinking about leaving, some even prepare to leave, i.e go to Uni in the evening, get professional quals, look for work etc. Once you've gone through this process the temptation to leave is great, especially if your prospects outside are good. Trouble is, it's an incredibly tough job market at the moment, think very carefully. You can guarantee the manpower planners will be modelling non-redundancy outflow from the RAF based upon previous redudancy rounds, so don't think you are inflicting a blow on the RAF, you aren't, you are merely doing what's expected.

Finally if you decide to leave, work like you've never worked before to make the transition, it's tough out there.

[Al R]

Armed forces minister Nick Harvey denied there had been any U-turn, saying the covenant was being written into the Armed Forces Bill. "For the first time we are actually defining the covenant and what it means," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

Charters, Bills and Standards, we are told, are methods of ensuring that those we are electing are doing their jobs properly. As we saw with The Freedom of Information Act, legislation ultimately exists to define a banchmark beyond which accountability is not needed, and behind which people can hide. These Bills do not promote excellence - they simply allow legions of anonymous paper shufflers the means to identify a low benchmark, stick to it - and defend it with all their might.

How far have we sunk for the g'ment needing to be told what its obligations to those who defend it are in some glossy annual brochure. Well done the RBL for speaking out. We should not need to 'define' some standard - we should always be looking for ways to improve it.. we should never be happy resting whilst we have ex-SP out on the streets or in distress because of their military service. And somehow, I don't think that any Con-Dem Bill is going to be about addressing that.

[Grumpy106]

I've been in the RAF for over 22 years now and I've never seen morale so low - and that's before they start messing about with our pensions!! Gordon Brown's Government and the idiots at MOD that allowed this to happen to the Armed Forces should be tried for Treason!

[VinRouge]

Morale is pretty piss poor at the mo, and about to get worse. To be honest, I wonder if the shady side of personnel management has gone a little too far; everyone I know is now talking about covering @rses, getting licenses then getting the hell out of dodge.

Question is, how do they turn the tap of service leavers off? With so many seeing that we are no longer an employer that cares for its people, people wont stay, even with large cash bung FRIs.

Mark my words, in 18 months to 2 years' time, we are going to be facing a huge black hole of experience, across the trades/branches that matter.

:ugh:

[Postman Plod]

I know we're all historically traditional dyed-in-the-wool tory voters, but I'm fed up of this "lets blame it all on Paw Broon and Liebour" attitude. Its not him - its ALL 2 faced lying cheating hypocritical politicians in this so called democratically elected parliament!!!! Yes, Broon royally screwed us, but so are the ConDem Party, and the Tories of yesteryear!! Forces friendly? My arse!

We're all in this together? Yeh right - the politicians and the bankers are getting away scot-free for the mess that THEY got us into! They don't have 2 craps about the people who elected them, they only care about the people who put them in place, and the people who will pay their excessive consultancy salaries.

Even when people TRY to stand up for us, they get steamrollered, and forced to take the party line. I honestly believe that Liam Fox has half a clue, and tried to defend the forces. Historically, we've never stood up for ourselves, we've always been "can do" and just got on and done the job regardless, but we need to learn to say no! If they want us to do a job, they can properly fund us and pay us to do it!

Morale IS low - everywhere. I don't see the actions being taken on our behalf making the situation any better though

[general all rounder]

Speaking personally, I will be leaving the Service sooner rather than later. I am not going to go in a hurry but will bide my time until I have a second career to go to outside - leaving in a hurry in the middle of a recession wouldn't be very bright. That said, in my mind I have left already, my focus is on preparing for my life outside.

The trigger? Loads of them. The clincher was CEA but the relentless increase in task coinciding with decrease in resource is the underlying reason - and the bureaucracy has got really stupid. I have been in 'full-on' tours/dets end-to-end for 10 years now (ie 12 hrs plus per day plus weekend work - just as well for the RAF they don't pay overtime) - I either want to be paid more for the same level of work or take a greater quality of life option.

[Jayand]

Never seen morale this low, truly a dangerous situation.
I honestly believe it could compromise flight safety, people are just desperate to jump ship and who can blame them?
Labour is largely to blame for this mess, for it's irresponsible spending over the last 13 years, never mind military spending we dont have enough money for police, nurses, teachers etc and that is what joe public really cares about.
When they are closing libraries, cutting teachers and nurses and can't fix the roads nobody out there cares about the harrier or nimrod.
Constant erosion of anything worthwhile in the RAF, combined with ooa tours to ****holes with little purpose or meaningful progress means people are fed up.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Kreuger flap,

I thought that we were on a 2 year pay freeze. Or am I mistaken?

Duncs:ok:

[Jayand]

Kreuger Flap, are you having a laugh? pay rise? not a chance!
And getting away early on a Friday isnt an indicator of a better quality of life! enjoying your job, job satisfaction, and having a sense of purpose would be nice.
Not getting stiffed for **** duties and fighting a pointless war in a dusty ****hole might also help.

[Chinny Crewman]

I believe I am correct in saying that all public sector workers have had their pay frozen for 2 years so the only surprise from the AFPRB will be how much FQ rent etc.. is raised.

RAF Odiham based aircraft fly on a Friday until 1700 and sometimes beyond so whilst the aircrew mates can usually make happy hour our engineering brethren will often still be in work well into the evening.

Morale? It's the uncertainty that is destructive.

[Pontius Navigator]

The great shame about the current situation is:

. . . people . . . willing to work late, run sports clubs, take increasing amounts of responsibility for no extra pay . . . and now we stick the proverbial bat up...

I think this is the most relevant post. People go the extra mile; they expect the mileage allowance to go with it.

As more gets sliced off people will increasingly treat the job as an 8-5 job and not a 24 hour vocation.

Extra duties? Extra time off in lieu thank you.

The Civil Service recognises work beyond 'conditioned' hours and has a system of overtime or time off in lieu. They also pay extra for travelling time - if you are required to travel to a remote for a normal start work then they pay for the extra travelling time.

[brokenlink]

Chinny,
You are correct that Civil Servants have had their pay frozen for 2 years. Whilst those at the higher end of the salary scale may have some degree of insulation from this, those in the middle to lower wage bracket are going to struggle, no question.

That having been said I personally believe the recent cuts to the forces allowances are frankly disgusting.
Comes from successive governments wanting to play on the world stage and only wanting to pay an Austin 7 budget for it!

Clear skies.

BL

[Grabbers]

I firmly believe that within 10 years we'll be looking at the Belgian military with envy. Unless our political masters cut our foreign policy 'cloth' accordingly.

[Siggie]

Politicians - not allowed to shoot'em, can't wipe yer A%&e with em.

[Scotch Bonnet]

Well done for starting this thread. With 34 years in I too am at or close to the end of my career. I am fortunate and earn enough to get by but for all the Soldiers Airmen and Sailors it is a different matter. The erosion of the terms and conditions for the Armed Forces is nothing short of a disaster for many families some of whom cannot earn a second wage (Germany etc). The accumulative effects of the pay freeze, income tax rises, national insurance contribution rises, withdrawal of child benefit (for some), the VAT rise, petrol prices and a high (?) RPI together with the reduction of allowances is a financial train crash. I am seething with contempt for all the "Leaders" who seek to rationalise the raping of a young families disposable income with puerile rhetoric designed to show them in a good light to their superiors and earn them honours and awards. Who is standing up for the little guys and girls? Somebody might well be but it’s not having any effect. Within my sphere of influence I now ensure that when in the UK the working day is tailored to allow maximum flexibility to the workforce so that they can help their families/partners. Where are the senior officers in all this? Anyone above 1 star should take a long look in the mirror and either start getting some b***s and speak out for the common man/woman or resign. Military Covenant? Don't make me laugh:ugh: Rant over...Almost, If the AFPRB puts up all the charges (quarters etc) without any uplift in wages then they have proven beyond doubt that they have lost any teeth the may of had.

[Uncle Ginsters]

This is something that i pointed out a while ago...we've been operating in a state of overstretch for a while now (whatever the seniors say) and our continued output has been largely thanks to everyone going that extra mile.

The loyalty and pride that spurred that effort was once a 2-way thing. Not so much today!

IMNSHO, the government, even if they didn't cause it, are about to discover what happens when the elastic band snaps and slaps you in the face.

Not good.:ugh:

[SCAFITE]

During the 70s and 80s we had thick end of 100,000 in the RAF and during this period we had up turns and down turns in the economy. During the bad times the RAF manning would remain stable, but during economic up turns especially when the Airlines were recruiting quite a few would leave. This was not a problem even when over a period 20,000 would leave the RAF, the remaining 80,000 would cope ok until the training system pumped out the replacements. But with an RAF of 30,000 folks and by the sound of it not buzzing with moral, one good upturn in the economy and its game over.
Or is this what they want, its an easy way of getting rid of the RAF and giving the remaining bits to the Army and RN

[soddim]

The real danger to the RAF will not be precipitated by the people who leave but will appear later caused by the people who are left. This is what happened last time people left in droves because the good people with the initiative and ability to turn their careers around left and the dross stayed and got promoted. If you don't believe me, look at the leadership around you - they stayed.

[RumPunch]

I too have done 21 years now and I have never seen it as bad as this. Out of all the crap that has happened the last 6 months the RAF has taken the biggest hit and I have never seen such a change in peoples view of the Air Force now. They are in serious trouble and I do not think there is any way out now. The next year is going to change the face of the RAF and its the ones that are hanging in to try and make a career that will get shafted over as they will yet again take on the extra burden of a constant reducing workforce. Something tells me this is the grand plan for the masters above to finally kill the Air Force and I can say 100% hand on my heart they have done that.

Its the poor souls that are left that will take the biggest hit.

[Charlie Time]

Well said SB and others - counting the days.

[minigundiplomat]

I applied for redundancy in the 2007/8 redundancy round and didn't get it, within 30 seconds of finding out I handed my PVR app to my boss. From chatting to the guys in PSF that day I found out I wasn't the only one to do so that week. The potential for redundancy gets people thinking about leaving, some even prepare to leave, i.e go to Uni in the evening, get professional quals, look for work etc. Once you've gone through this process the temptation to leave is great, especially if your prospects outside are good. Trouble is, it's an incredibly tough job market at the moment, think very carefully. You can guarantee the manpower planners will be modelling non-redundancy outflow from the RAF based upon previous redudancy rounds, so don't think you are inflicting a blow on the RAF, you aren't, you are merely doing what's expected.

Finally if you decide to leave, work like you've never worked before to make the transition, it's tough out there.

Spoken like the truly indoctrinated.

[glad rag]

The real danger to the RAF will not be precipitated by the people who leave but will appear later caused by the people who are left. This is what happened last time people left in droves because the good people with the initiative and ability to turn their careers around left and the dross stayed and got promoted. If you don't believe me, look at the leadership around you - they stayed.
Well said!:D:D:D

[The Old Fat One]

How hard you work, how much money you make, what your goals are (inside our outside the RAF) are matters of personal philosophy. As MGD points out, buying into other peoples ideology of how the world works, or is supposed to work, simply leaves your destiny in other peoples hands.

Stay in and work your nuts off or stay in and put your feet up (The Bilko Approach) - it's your choice. And there is nothing on this thread whatsoever, that was not doing the rounds in the mid-seventies when I joined just after mass cutbacks.

Come out and work like a mortgage slave - why would anybody want to do that? Use your redundancy and/or resettlement allowances to find out what you really want do then learn how to earn money doing it. You might just find you can earn a s**tload of dosh without working hard at all.

Find a job you enjoy and you will never work again

Winston Churchill

Be your own person. Do what is best for you, your loved ones and your mates. **** the rest, because they will **** you in an eye blink.

Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for you country.

We all know who said that right...well this is what he had in mind when he was saying it..

YouTube - Nineteen - Paul Hardcastle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSGvqjVHik8)

[SaddamsLoveChild]

Morale is low, staffs are fed up with what they know changing beyong all recognition. It is now just a job, there is no reward other than the respect of your peers and the fact that you are looking after those on ops. Secondary duties.............dont get me started cos if you have a really meaty one there arent enough lines in an ojar/sjar to acurately report on it as well as describe your primary role. Put that with te cut in allowances, tightening up of the rules and the senior staffs are telegraphing the fact that THIS IS NO LONGER A VOCATION - ITS A JOB. If my staff want to go home at 1630 and dont want any secondary duties because they arent worth the impact on their lives then the RAF will suffer and CAS etc only hae themselves to blame. Limited promotion, lack of flying and the penny pinching on AT will hit the experience levels hard as people take the family option.

There will always be those who will join but we will be relying on them and not the experience as it will be out of the door!

[Pontius Navigator]

Find a job you enjoy and you will never work again

Winston Churchill

But there are limited opportunities and a 5 year waiting list, unless a vaccancy arises at short notice if an incumbant becomes otherwise detained :}

[minigundiplomat]

I think that many have made their decision already, but as they say in comedy, its all about timing.

The good guys left will no doubt make their decisions after the pension and SP reviews this spring.

The Bilko's have already voted for more of the same and someone elses recently abandoned seat on which to rest their feet during the working day.

Good luck to all of you, whatever your decision. Be aware though, we are all now on our own, so look after your mates and expect no help from above.
E & E rules now apply!

[The Old Fat One]

Good luck to all of you, whatever your decision. Be aware though, we are all now on our own, so look after your mates and expect no help from above.
E & E rules now apply!


You have grown wise Obi One. May the force be with you.

[cheesedoff]

I left in April last year and it's not all bad, you just have to work for a living!

[Diablo Rouge]

I am very sad to say that people influencing my life from within the service are arrogant self opinionated knobbers. Solution: First port of call will be redundancy and if that is not to be then PVR as I am not prepared to do what is being demanded of me. We are in a flat spin from which there is no recovery, and I am convinced that nobody really cares an iota.

There is sufficient nostalgia in my service career to feel absolutely gutted about what the RAF has become. The demise of the hardware I can live with; the selfish mindset of servicemen that the current situation is breading (like rabbits) is a bitter pill to swallow, however logical it may be. Summed up by an oft heard phrase: "Do you know; that if I am made redundant, it will not bother me".

[cazatou]

Perhaps it is time for Jackonicko to do a front page spread?

[Kengineer-130]

From my personal point of view, I have 2 months left to my 12 year point, when I will be leaving the service. On my shift at work, the amount of people leaving at their 9/12/22 year point is frightening. The AMM's on shift are disillusioned, and face massive cuts in numbers, some lads/lasses will be booted out after 4 years of service with a pittance. I have NEVER seem morale so low, people are doing anything to avoid spending an extra second in work, there is NO managemnt/ chain of command support, eveyone is in it for themselves...

I am very sad to be leaving, as there are some great great people I have had the pleasure to meet and work with (In all services), but at the same time overjoyed that I no longer have to deal with all the crap, and the tumbling standards and morale.

I will have fond memories, but it is most definatly time to leave, I just feel sorry for the troops that are left.

[Toddington Ted]

I left the RAF in March 2010 at my KOS point (55) and it already seems to bear little relation to the RAF I knew in 2009 let alone 1986. I guess I am fortunate (at the moment but don't know how long for) to be able to continue to work at an RAF unit as a civvy lecturer. The feeling of low morale amongst some of my RAF compadres is tangible. It mainly takes the form of "what's going to smack us next?!":(

[high spirits]

It's not all bad news folks. See Robert Peston's Blog for the BBC today:

Royal Bank of Scotland has confirmed that its chief executive, Stephen Hester, will receive a "new Share Bank scheme" award (RBS's name for a bonus) of £2.04m for his performance in 2010. It will be paid in shares, and he won't be able to get his hand on all of it for three years.

It means that Hester will receive a fraction of the sum likely to be awarded to his opposite number at Barclays, Bob Diamond (with some of the difference in their respective pay explained by the fact that RBS is more than 80% owned by taxpayers).

RBS also confirms that its investment bankers - employed by its GBM division - will share in bonuses totalling "less than £950m for 2010." That compares with the 2009 bonus pool of £1.3bn. A proportion of that drop in bonuses stems from the fact that GBM had a better year in 2009: not all of the fall represents pay restraint imposed by the board of RBS as a result of the Merlin talks.

:yuk:
Somewhat ironic that they have called such daylight robbery 'Project Merlin'. Too late, very costly and unfit for purpose.......

[muttywhitedog]

For a very large percentage, its not a "way of life" any more, its a job. People come to work, do their work, and go home. Mess functions are cancelled due to lack of interest; Beer Calls are attended by a handful of people, half of whom leave after one beer having put in "face time"; secondary duties remain unfilled; clubs & societies closing due to lack of support.

I dont think there's a great deal that can be done about turning it round. There have been too many false dawns; too many rousing speeches by too many commanders - all of whom have failed to deliver.

I have 5 yrs left on my contract and if I dont get redundancy, then I will probably see my 5 yrs out as one of the people I referred to above. My love affair with my employer is dead after a slow, lingering illness.

[Fretus Pennae]

OK morale is low, everyone is doing the bare minimum, and no-one is taking on secondary duties - so if I turn up every day bright as a button, work hard, stay late and do all those vacant secondary duties (won't need to fight for the juicy ones - I'll have my pick), then that should clearly elevate me above my peers come appraisal time and I'm on the fast track to promotion!

Perhaps this could be seen as an opportunity?!

[minigundiplomat]

Perhaps this could be seen as an opportunity?!


Good luck. Good to see that in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is still king.

[SaddamsLoveChild]

Promotion by attrition.............there has to be some promotion to be had, in th next two or three years do you really think you are that good or that they are that bad. If you are - well done, if not you will be working harder than the rest fr nothing and sacrificing your family time.

We'll see...........keep us posted!

[Chris Griffin]

Fretus Pennae:

Nice one. Laughed out loud

(or LOL apparently!)

[Pontius Navigator]

I have been telling people for many years that they work for only 3 people - themsleves, their wife (and children) and their boss. It is rare for hard work for someone outside their CoC to be reflected in their annual reports.

As endex approaches that list reduces by one.

Almost 40 years ago I watched spellbound and dumbstruck as sqn ldr ops worked into his terminal leave because his station was about to endure its first taceval. Of course it was sheer pride in job and the desire to ensure that he was remembered for the success of the taceval and not his failure as sqn ldr ops. Who remembers him today? I do. It was Witteringter in 1973 or 74. Would many do that today?

[RumPunch]

I am just sad it has come to this now, I joined up at a time when it was magic. The great memories and times , every day going into work made you smile, right now I cannot remember anytime in the last 5 years where I had that smile and feel good.
Whatever has happened I very doubt we will have that back, the fact you enjoyed your job you would work late and get the jets ready for next day, it was team work. Right now that has all gone , the goodwill has left the building and people are just counting the clock now.

Such a waste that could easily have been prevented

[Rigga]

"Question is, how do they turn the tap of service leavers off? With so many seeing that we are no longer an employer that cares for its people, people wont stay, even with large cash bung FRIs."

Not serving since 1999 but read this with interest. A few pointers.

If the "Good Guys" go and the remaining disenchanted stop doing the secondary stuff and volunteering for the nasty little task that go on - the knobbers who sit in Baths full of Beans will, quite soon, replace the good guys!

This is the BEST TIME to get your desired qualifications up and running - DO THAT NOW. Dont wait until you've been accepted or rejected - you can carry on under your own steam. Make your decisions now and do something about it - You can always stay in if you want to, but you can then get more qualifications.

EDUCATION ALLOWANCES - abuse them or lose them!
and finally...

DON'T GET MAD, GET EVEN.

[NutLoose]

I have read this thread with interest and would like to add something that may be of help

The term "the grass is always greener on the other side of the hill" comes to mind

If you want to be unemployed, especially in the engineering dept then go ahead, the Civilian side of things at the moment is Dire.......... no, I would re categorise that as worse than Dire..

I am a fully qualified ex RAF Multi Licenced Engineer and I have a job, BUT a lot of engineers I know have none, no prospect of getting one and are struggling. Contracting wise I have friends that I would if being honest judging by their work and work ethic along with the quality of the said work, rank in the top 10% of contractors, these are the guys everyone want, and he has suffered months of unemployment in the last year. One I know sold his car, dropped behind with his mortgage but has managed to recover that situation. My sisters lad has finished college and has all the modules for his licences in place, he would even work for nothing if he could to get the experience period required to ratify his licences, and he has tried for a year to find a placement to no avail. At the end of the day a licence puts you in a stronger position employment wise, but how many of you have that? and then you will be competing with a plethora of fully qualified and type rated engineers from major airlines that are unemployed and seeking work.

The UK civil scene, from an engineering point of view is dead, lots of airlines are simply shifting their maintainance oversees to agencies that can do the job cheaper, Malta, Latvia etc and I have even known of aircraft going from the UK to the Phillipines for their checks.. look at the likes of Air Italia, a lot of their aircraft are shifting to the Irish register to they can get maintained to the US system in Ireland I believe.

So no matter how bad moral is.......... think of the cheque at the end of the month and if it is guarranteed or not and the family, lifestyle you need to maintain..........

Just my ten penneth, but I felt it needed to be said.

[RumPunch]

Really Annoyed must obviousley work in PSF where the posting around the globe and the high pay band have got too much for ones head.

Nutloose I shall say from an Engineering point of view most people are fed up working in the aviation industry , its the other jobs that are around right now that pay 3 times what the RAF gives you with a chance to have a life. And If you are an engineer the future is very good. I just hope it works our for everyone , the RAF are making promises I just dont think they can keep.

[NutLoose]

Nutloose I shall say from an Engineering point of view most people are fed up working in the aviation industry , its the other jobs that are around right now that pay 3 times what the RAF gives you with a chance to have a life. And If you are an engineer the future is very good. I just hope it works our for everyone , the RAF are making promises I just dont think they can keep.

Without wanting to sound patronising, that figure is easily attainable as a Licenced Engineer. Though the future looking good, well....... remember the likes of Woodford are just about to or are in the process of dumping a large amount onto the market....... the fact is, EASA and the UK have given companies approvals all over the world in "cheaper markets" bit like call centres to India, so the rebound of the UK industry is to say a long time off.

most people are fed up working in the aviation industry

Totally understandable, to go from what was once the envy of the world to what we have now is an eye opener, EASA "that bees knees of the European Aviation governing body" is a Disaster in my eyes....... to encompass all countries in the EU you were never going to get the best solution, It is easier and the only way you can go to dumb down all of the Countries to the lowest standard in Europe, rather than attempt to bring everyone up to the highest, especially in the time period set....... I actually have to do the amendments in our company amongst other things and to throw pages after pages of UK Airworthiness Directives that had to be based on sound logic into the bin, to end up with a couple of sheets per type from what was 20 plus, did not and still does not seem logical.

[Kengineer-130]

Rigga, So true... So much talent going to waste that civvies will pay for very very well. :ok:

[hanoijane]

I was in the UK over Christmas and stunned to see my old friend UK plc fall on such hard times. Not materially you understand, but in the loss of personal pride and motivation in almost all sectors of British society. Frankly, these things are hard to acquire and incredibly easy to lose. And once lost they rarely return.

Bad luck chaps. Your decline will be long, lingering and painful. But you've had your day. Now it's our turn.

Oh and don't get upset at 'Really Annoyed'. He started off nicely on pprune with his ironic humour and now he's simply bitter. Rather like your nation methinks...

[A2QFI]

We may have Commanders but we don't seem to have Leaders. With regard to "If you don't like it get out", many people have or are going to soon and SFAIK PVRs are not immediate but I am sure there are plenty in the pipeline. There may be very little need for compulsory redundancies

[jindabyne]

We may have Commanders but we don't seem to have Leaders

Aye to that A2

[muttywhitedog]

I dont think Really Annoyed works in PSF. He sound more like those to$$ers at HQ Air who fill non-jobs, whilst spending half their day with their tongue up their Bosses' backside, and the other half career laughing, putting in face time and generally being an odious creep so that one day they can have a tongue up their backside.

Staff Officers, I think they are called.