Decommissioning ground navaids

[KittyKatKaper]

Found this tucked away in the 'industry forums' section of the ASA website.
At the very end of
http://www.airservices.gov.au/projectsservices/industryforums/waypoint/2010/presentations/workshop4.pdf
there is this table Navigation Aid Network
Proposed Decommissioned Year VOR NDB
09/10 0 0
10/11 6 6
11/12 13 17
12/13 3 29
13/14 9 23
14/15 5 18
15/16 8 44
16/17 0 19
Total 44 156
Total Savings $120M

By my count there are about 90 VORs and about 270 NDBs at this time, meaning that ASA intend to remove half of the ground-based navaids within about 6 years.


GNSS is wonderfull (if you've got it), but when I'm in IMC outback, it's comforting to know that there is a ground station somewhere near my track.

[The Green Goblin]

The Nav aids are an important backup if you lose RAIM or the yanks switch off the GPS when they can't afford to maintain it anymore :}

I think we need Dick Smith to bring this one into the public arena.

As a nation we need to be autonomous in regards to our aviation infrastructure. Relying on another nation to support our navigational capability is asking for trouble.

While it's not my cup of tea flying an NDB approach in anger, in many places I used to traverse, it was my only option.

I was upset when the switched off the NDB at Perth. The aeroplanes I used to fly when turning onto the arc did not have an RMI that I could tune and select the VOR. The arcs became a messy affair after that.

[Oktas8]

I think most states now around the world use GPS (clock synchronising) for cellphone networks, major financial transactions and quite a lot of SAR type stuff. Seems fair enough for aviation to use it too for all except the most important terminal areas.

[chimbu warrior]

It is an unfortunate truth that ground-based navaids are expensive to run (power requirements), and repair (imagine the cost of getting 2 technicians to Birdsville or Balgo).

With our industry continually pushing for efficiencies, those talking loudest get heard the most. This translates to "those paying AsA the most money" (i.e. QF, DJ, JQ etc).

Ground based aids at Birdsville or Balgo are of no use to them, so they naturally baulk at paying for them. For that matter, aids at Ballarat, Port Augusta, Casino and Kiingaroy are of little or no use to them either.

This raises the question - who will pay?

Unfortunately the extinction of NDB's and VOR's is only a matter of time. In PNG now, I think all except 2 or 3 NDB's are gone.

If you are considering buying an aircraft now, forget about an ADF; make sure it has two 530's.

[AIREHEAD]

I,ve been using IFR GPS,s since the late 80's. However much I like them and like knowing I'm on track, I still don"t 100% trust them without some ground aids for confirmation that I'm where I think I am.I've also had several screen failures as well as Raim failures and resorting to DR mode. I don't want see NDB.s closed down .

[Arm out the window]

There's a NOTAM out about modernising of ground based navaids, as many will probably know. They're shutting down old equipment but also putting up new NDBs and VORs - as far as I know the ground based aids will be around for a good few years yet.
Met a bloke up at TNK last year who was going around the country setting up NDB towers and getting them working, had the wife and kids (home schooling) in a nice Winnebago setup and was following the work round Australia over a period of years. Nice people, looked like he had the right gear and knew what he was doing too!
So our navaids should be in reasonable nick.

[c100driver]

I don't want see NDB.s closed down

The real question is how much extra would you be happy to pay to keep them?

The Airlines are not interested in NDB, the current generation out of the Airbus and Boeing factories of A380, A320 B777 don't have ADF as standard equipment. It is an expensive option to have one installed for no benefit in first world countries.

VOR/DME probably have many years left in them as the back up, but their days are also numbered.

yanks switch off the GPS
I asked this once at a PBN symposium and was told this was never going to happen as John Doe would never get his pizza delivered. GPS in the US is intrinsically linked to the entire economy, shipping on the inter-coastal waterway, trucking, railways, parcel delivery, taxi operations, farming, road users etc are all so dependant on GPS that it would be political suicide for any party to turn it off. One fact that the speaker quoted was that aviation does not even makeup 1% of the users of GPS in the US economy.

[Fly-by-Desire]

The real question is how much extra would you be happy to pay to keep them?


Nothing! As far as Im concerned, its national infrastructure and the government should be paying for it, just like roads, rail, water/waste (looks like we are paying extra for that now too, ala flood tax :*)

[Aerozepplin]

Airways NZ has plans to shutdown a number of off-aerodrome VORs soon, and the NDBs are falling likes flies. So you're not alone.

[c100driver]

And that is why it will be closed down. The public see the rational if they use it for airline operations when they buy the ticket to ride.

The airline can say we don't need it or want it but can give you a cheaper ticket if we don't pay for nav aids we don't use. Cheaper tickets or tax cuts are always going to have Joe Public on their side.

The public see GA as a rich man's play thing (I know it is not, and you know it is not but that is the perception).

[Mr. Hat]

The Nav aids are an important backup if you lose RAIM or the yanks switch off the GPS when they can't afford to maintain it anymore

Exactly right.

Can we assume that given they'll be removed that they will also be removed off the Instrument Renewal? Afterall I haven't been asked how to use a sextant lately.

[Icarus2001]

Have another read of the CAO...

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/download/orders/cao40/400201.pdf

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

The IR used to hang off the NDB rating. No longer the case - either NDB or VOR will do.

Subject to paragraph 10.5, a person seeking a particular grade of instrument
rating must in all cases satisfy the requirements of the instrument rating test:
(a) for the use of the navigation aid NDB or the navigation aid VOR;

For renewal purposes, the ILS covers the VOR - so ILS and GPS RNAV and you are good to go.

Dr :8

PS: So says he who hangs onto the NDB like a security blanket.

[Zeke]

I asked this once at a PBN symposium and was told this was never going to happen as John Doe would never get his pizza delivered. GPS in the US is intrinsically linked to the entire economy, shipping on the inter-coastal waterway, trucking, railways, parcel delivery, taxi operations, farming, road users etc are all so dependant on GPS that it would be political suicide for any party to turn it off. One fact that the speaker quoted was that aviation does not even makeup 1% of the users of GPS in the US economy.

"The Department of Defense will conduct GPS tests on January 20th through February 22nd, 2011. During testing, the GPS signal may be unreliable or unavailable."

from https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2011/Jan/GPS_Flight_Advisory_CSFTL11-01_Rel.pdf

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Ah well.....I guess its back to the ole ADF and the ABC broadcast stns for moi....They are the stronger signals around & I know where the transmitting antennas are.....

Cheers:ok:

[Jabawocky]

FTDK

You sure about that forkie? My ATO down here AD reckons you have to do ILS and VOR and whatever else in a renewal.

Recent exp yes but not renewal.

Anyone know for sure?

[morno]

Jabba,
Forky is right, ILS covers your VOR. So in a renewal you only have to do an ILS, RNAV and an NDB to get all the aids.

I haven't done a VOR approach under test conditions since my initial issue 8 years ago.

morno

[Tarq57]

What I'd be fairly interested to know (without making "the sky is falling" sorts of noises) is, has anyone or any group studied the likely scenario if solar storms become unusually intense, and how likely is it that a number of satellites might be taken out by a solar flare?

Solar flares have been energetic enough in the past to shut down power grids. People I know who are interested in this sort of thing, and study the Sun, tell me that the experts in these matters reckon the next cycle of solar flares are going to be unusually intense.

If so, would it be such a good idea to be decommissioning so many ground based aids?

[Jabawocky]

Whoever sees A Dunbar next.....ask him.

Of course being the kind of guy he is he will take it on board and either shoot you down or acknowledge your contribution.

however..............I think THIS will be the answer.

In the Renewal you HAVE to do an NDB or VOR. Given the comments previous were ADF/NDB is going the way of the Dodo, you will find folk....like forie with a U/S ADF (if its not all fixed) and the Retard Vehicle (Cricket receiverless) who do not partake in NDB's, they have to do a VOR instead, and if you want a ILS and RNAV they also have to be done. Just doing the ILS and an RNAV does not cut it.

Thinks ADF'less for a bit.

hey Morno....beaut day down here...no storms :} what does that mean?

[Jabawocky]

Zeke
:= Posting only part of the real picture. If this is the same link as one I read a week back its only a very small part of the planet involved in those tests.

J:ok:

[morno]

That'd mean you haven't been up flying Jabba, :E.

And I didn't actually pick up on the lack of ABC Radio receivers in the Retard Vehicle the other day when I flew it. I think I was too busy trying to get my head around the start procedure for that bloody engine!

morno

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

4 Renewal
4.1. An applicant for renewal of a particular grade of instrument rating shall pass
the instrument rating test applicable to the initial issue of that grade of
instrument rating except that:
(a) proficiency in using 1 or more of RNAV(GNSS), ILS, LLZ, VOR, DME
or NDB may be demonstrated in a synthetic flight trainer approved for
the purpose — if proficiency in at least 1 other navigation aid is also
demonstrated in flight or in an approved flight simulator; and
Civil Aviation Order 40.2.1
22
(b) a demonstration of proficiency in using ILS or LLZ in accordance with subparagraph (a) may be used to meet the proficiency testing
requirements for VOR — if proficiency in at least 1 other non-precision
instrument approach is demonstrated as part of the test; and
(c) a demonstration of proficiency in using LLZ may be used to meet the
proficiency testing requirements for ILS — if proficiency using ILS was
demonstrated at the previous renewal.
4.2 When a grade of instrument rating is being renewed, a person who has a DME
or GPS arrival procedure endorsement entered in his or her log book is taken
to have demonstrated proficiency for the procedure for paragraph 11.6.Hmmmmmm - I am not saying anything more on this!

On further reflection - YES I AM!

Jaba - what sort of approach is a GPS RNAV?

Dr :8

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

When it aaalllll turns to sh##@@* t ....

'Aunty' Rules....

Cheers :ok:

[Jabawocky]

A really good one! :)

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Tune up 693 4QR Bald Hills radiator...it matters not how much it bends crossing the coast..it'll still get you within cooee of BN.:ok:

PS...thanks for that link, Zeke.:ok:

[frigatebird]

There is something very comforting (with that needle pointing to the snug hangar) about having a serviceable NDB at the home field on a dark night or with weather......!

[beat ups are fun]

I wonder where ASA is going to spend this $120M that they are going to save? Surely not on grants for owners to fit TSO 146 GPS. How are we going to get a position fix every 2 hours in the future?

Fair enough ground aids are expensive but they are a vital part of navigation. Just have a think about Alternate requirments.... in the NT and Far north QLD you'd have to nominate an alternate maybe 200 Nm away, destroying your uplift.

As far as I'm concerned airways charges for IFR flights are cheap for the service you get (for GA). If ASA cant afford to keep nav aids running they might need to consider raising the charges, without ripping owners off.

Here is a link to ASA showing how to calculate En route charges and landing fees. $0.92 per kilometer X aircraft weight (tonnes) isn't allot of money.

http://www.airservices.gov.au/pilotcentre/avcharge/price/contract2010/standard_contract_oct2010.pdf

　

[megle2]

Oz Busman - you better recheck ABC 4QR frequency - its 612 NW of BN and far more powerful

693 is 4KQ ( better music ) and is situated ESE of BN

[AerocatS2A]

There is something very comforting (with that needle pointing to the snug hangar) about having a serviceable NDB at the home field on a dark night or with weather......!
Yeah! Except for when the weather is a thunderstorm and the ADF points to it instead of the navaid.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Thanks Meagle...you can tell I ain't been round there recently:}

[The Chaser]

A wise old retired Jet driver (not the Qar$ehole that frequents this place) once said to me:-

"Do you really want to be tracking towards AM radio station towers? ... most of em are very tall and/or placed on top of mountains :eek: ... and even if you are looking for one that is not lofty, how can you be 100% sure you are headed for the right one, the ident (radio announcer) does not confirm the beacon name very often each hour" :ooh:

I should add, we were discussing exit strategies from unforecast last light :E and/or WX

[megle2]

Chaser whats unforecast last light?

[The Chaser]

:E ... a halfar$sed name for screwing up the ATA at destination ;)

[frigatebird]

Yeah! Except for when the weather is a thunderstorm and the ADF points to it instead of the navaid.

The old NDB for Gizo(one of the more reliable ones that actually worked most of the time, -when that was all there was-)was located on Gizo island(the town island, where there was power), not at the airport island of Nusatupe. If it failed, the procedure could be used on the radio station as the aerial for it was nearby. If the power was out on it too, plan B regarding a visual approach became effective.. These days there is a GPS procedure for each end of Nusatupe, but the guys don't try as hard.

[Centaurus]

PS: So says he who hangs onto the NDB like a security blanket.

And of course you keep current on aurul null orientation and let down:ok:

[Tmbstory]

Just as long a someone keeps information on how to work the systems, if they are ever needed, again for real or for memory sake

Tmb

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

In the mid 90's the guru's were busy shutting down the Australian DME system without much consulatation with those that actually used them, and then they were planning to start removing the NDB's at major aerodromes on the J curve and then start removing the rest of the NDB's around the country when they failed.

One problem that ASA does come up with is that a lot of land leased out for navaids was done at peppercorn rental or in some cases a handshake agreement with the local farmer, but now the landowners want big dollars or have been told by lawyers etc to ask for lots of dollars and a very tight contract etc.

For an aid that was going to be phased out, a number of new NDB's have been installed over the last few years.

[c100driver]

For an aid that was going to be phased out, a number of new NDB's have been installed over the last few years.

Isn't that OPS normal for a government, renew them all before you decommission?

[400ER]

Interesting post. Yesterday the ML VOR/DME was out of service. ATC were issuing the ARBEY1B arrival for rwy 34, which takes you to LAVER, then via the 11DME arc for the 34 VOR approach. Nobody seemed to query the STAR.

[Hempy]

yesterday the ML VOR/DME was out of service. ATC were issuing the ARBEY1B arrival for rwy 34, which takes you to LAVER, then via the 11DME arc for the 34 VOR approach. Nobody seemed to query the STAR.

'GPS permitted in lieu of DME'...

[Dick N. Cider]

Where will they spend the $120M?

At "Waypoint" last year they talked about $800M of urgent infrastructure upgrades that they're borrowing money to fund. TAAATS is already at it's use by date and requires replacing (it's been 15 years). Draft pricing policy has increased charges (but reduced in "real" terms). Presumably most of it will be used to offset the massive hole in the bucket.

DNC

Airservices Australia - Projects & Services - Industry Forums - Waypoint (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/projectsservices/industryforums/waypoint/2010/default.asp)

[bushy]

If you take the NDB's out you can expect SAR costs to go up.
There are about 10,000 non airline aircraft.

[bankrunner]

It is an unfortunate truth that ground-based navaids are expensive to run (power requirements), and repair (imagine the cost of getting 2 technicians to Birdsville or Balgo).

Not just the cost, how long do you reckon it'd take them to get around to getting out there to take a look at it, then organise to fix it? Take Griffith for an example, and that's only 4 hours by road from CB. (At least I assume the VOR there is busted, rather than as a result of works etc.)


C0001/11 REVIEW C0072/10
VOR/DME 'GTH' 114.8/95X NOT AVBL
FROM 01 200119 TO 03 250600 EST

[TriMedGroup]

Mildura VOR/DME been U/S since November, NOTAM was initially til the end of Jan, now extended to the end of March. Not good fun having to carry alternate fuel for Nhill, or if the WX is no good there, then Adelaide. New plane will definately have TSO146 gear AND an ADF.

RNAV's are great but when there's an NDB, generally there is a DGA. And they save a lot of time and fuel when there is only one RNAV at the destination I.e Mildura to Swan Hill. Unless of course, CASA is planning on letting us use GNSS for tracking purposes on a DGA???

[Jabawocky]

That is coming allegedly..........don't your breath:ugh:

[400ER]

"Gps is permitted in lieu of DME", that solves flying the arc. In the machine I drive the Gps sensors are disabled during a VOR approach, so no tracking information. We're also required to have the navaid pointers underlying when in FMS.

[Hempy]

Don't get me wrong mate, I'm not saying it's 'correct' or, in your case, usable...I'm just saying that's the justification (although if the omni is out as well it probably should also state 'GPS in lieu of VOR'? )

[Evil Twin]

I've a question on this one that I can't seem to find the answer for. Can anyone give me a nudge in the right direction?

When using GNSS in lieu of DME when carrying out a VOR/NDB approach if you receive a RAIM outage warning can you continue the approach?

I'm aware that you cannot descend below LSALT/MSA etc. if you have a RAIM outage but what I'm asking for is once the approach has been commenced and an outage occurs.

Any help please?

Cheers ET

[Trent 972]

AIP ENR 1.5 -11
1.12 Missed Approach Requirements - GNSS
1.12.1 If a loss of RAIM or RAIM warning is indicated at any time after passing the Initial Approach Fix, the pilot must immediately carry out a missed approach in accordance with published procedures.
1.12.2 Provided the RAIM warning ceases when the missed approach is selected on the GPS receiver, the GPS may be used for missed approach guidance.
1.12.3 Should the RAIM warning remain when the missed approach is se- lected, or should there be any doubt about the accuracy of the GPS, then an alternative means of guidance or dead reckoning must be used to fly the missed approach.

[Evil Twin]

Thanks Trent but I'm not talking about during an RNAV only for when using GNSS in lieu of DME for distance information when conducting a NDB or VOR approach.

Cheers ET

[Trent 972]

No probs Evil.
If you have a look at AIP GEN 1.5 -5/6 (Radio Navigation Systems) and consider the ramifications of note 5. I think you might agree that my previous reply was the answer to your question.
regards ;)

edit - afterthought!
I may have erroneously assumed you are asking about a vor/dme (ndb/dme) approach, in that the dme was required for the approach. Otherwise depends on the type of IFR op. :ok:

[MACH082]

Any raim warning when using the GPS below the MSA in IMC requires you to fly the published missed approach.

This applies to a VOR/NDB DME approach which has a lower minima due to the increased accuracy from he DME/GPS.

This also applies to a GPS/DME arrival as you're using the GPS for the steps.

It certainly applies for a GPS RNAV.

If RAIM isn't available, do another type of approach!

[Evil Twin]

Thanks Mach that's the answer I was looking for.

Cheers
ET

[Hempy]

If RAIM isn't available, do another type of approach!

as long as it doesn't involve a ground based navigation aid..... :ugh:

[Clearedtoreenter]

So how many RAIM outages have you folks experienced on your screens lately? I've had one since 1995 and that turned out to be a software glitch on an early Garmin 300XL that was fixed by the agent. Predicatable RAIM outages are on NOTAMS but they are mostly short term and can be avoided(?) it's not like having a dodgy NDB for months on end or an ILS fall over.

If the norm in GA was not to fly old crap boxes with shagged out avionics that came out of the arc, we would not need NDB/VOR or the expense associated with them.... ASA should put unreliable old tech where it belongs and save a lot of taxpayer dough, and if GA can't update, then it should not be flying IFR.

Yesterday at Sydney in all the crap weather the 16R ILS was out and it was RNAV only. Was a real problem for the heavies with RAIM in and out. Not.

[Flying Binghi]

via Clearedtoreenter;
...ASA should put unreliable old tech where it belongs and save a lot of taxpayer dough, ...

Hmmm... and what do we use to navigate IFR when the GPS system gets turned off ?..:hmm:




.

[Pera]

The risk vs cost benefit of reducing nav aids is undeniable. A very low likelihood of GPS being turned off, a basic network will still exist, and consequences are unlikely to be safety related.

[Flying Binghi]

via Pera;

...A very low likelihood of GPS being turned off,...



Yeah, well... The Israely's have already had to scramble the GPS signal to 'upset' a terrorist drone. The most heavily defended airspace on the planet didn't see the terror drone coming. Them wanna-be ossamas have just started to realise the terror drone potential - expect more to come... Many more...


via Pera;
...and consequences are unlikely to be safety related.


If not safety related - then what will it be ?





.

[Captain Nomad]

Hmm, yes, and what about no ground based aids when one of my 3 GPS receivers does this (as happened recently). The antenna amplifier in the stand alone standby unit randomly started acting as an oscillator and cancelled out its own signal reception and also the nearby antennas and signal reception of the other two GPS receivers connected to the FMS! This resulted in random short periods where all three GPS units went into DR mode resulting in complete loss of RNAV with EPU and CDI deflection going out to 8 nm in some cases! You can have receiver redundancy but sometimes that doesn't solve all the problems... I'll keep the VORs and NDBs thanks...

[Up-into-the-air]

Might be old technology, but doesn't suffer from raim's and I am sure with a block of concrete as an anchor, that the NDB stays in the same place.

Remember Benalla and Lockhart River for "minor" gps problems.

[Clearedtoreenter]

Hmmm... and what do we use to navigate IFR when the GPS system gets turned off ?..

Well.... judging by how often NDBs, VORs and even ILSs fall over for natural causes and how long they take to fix, I'd say that's the least of our worries. I guess it's true, GPS can be jammed and our military friends over the Pacific could switch it off without telling anyone but at the moment anyway, that seems to be a somewhat lesser risk.

If its a policy that ASA are getting rid of VORs but maintaining NDBs (E.g. MSO, MQD etc) and if GPS gets switched off and theres no VOR or ILS, it's true I'm stuffed. Have not used an NDB in anger for years and most of the planes I've flown recently don't have one. If they are really costing hundreds of millions to maintain, they're just an expensive security blanket giving recalcitrant operators even less incentive to get rid old the s--t boxes that plague our industry.

[Captain Nomad]

What happened to multiple system redundancy? What about the 'independant' navaids with 'independant' receivers in the aircraft which was engineered into our regulations even for charter aircraft let alone RPT. What on earth was that for? Could it be that if one 'system' fails (either in the aircraft or on the ground or both) you will at least have another system to get you navigating and safely back to earth through an instrument approach. You can't tell me that the whiz-bang capabilities of GPS does not magically make it immune to 'failing' - TSO146 or otherwise. If this multiple system redundancy is removed purely for financial expediency it is not a good enough reason and is a serious step backwards from a safety perspective IMHO.

I would like the accountants making the decisions to have seen my 'oscillator' problem or some of the others I could add to the list. I have flown a relatively new aircraft where on climb out the GPS spontaneously wiped the entire Jeppesen data card. It was later found that the two interconnected GPS units were hardwired incorrectly from the aircraft factory - maybe a causal factor. There are some locations where it is known that some GPS units sometimes do a 'dummy spit' when it is time for the receiver to go into approach mode and for the CDI scaling to reduce down to 0.3 RNP. I'm sure glad in these cases that I am not entirely reliant on GPS - and frankly, I fear the day we do become totally reliant on one navigation source... I hope it does not take some big holes in the ground for us to reinvent the wheel on this one.

[Motorola]

Anyone have access to a list of de-commissioned, or soon to be decommissioned, NDB's please?

Thanks.

[CaptainMidnight]

Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Frequently asked questions (http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_101178)

4. I’m a private IFR pilot. Can’t I just fly using VORs, NDBs and DME, as I’ve always done?

Yes, but be aware that you will have to fit a TSO-approved GNSS unit to your aircraft by 4 February 2016. You should also know there will be fewer ground-based navaids. In 2016, about 200 ground aids (VOR, NDB, DME) will be turned off. Decommissioning these will leave the remaining navaids to form the back-up navigation network (BNN), which is intended to run until 2025. Many of the navaids that will be decommissioned are already at the end of their operational lives.


I don't know if a list of the 200 navaids to be turned off by 2016 has been released as yet, but have heard that the Airservices board hasn't as yet approved the plan.

[Flying Binghi]

I don't know if a list of the 200 navaids to be turned off by 2016 has been released as yet, but have heard that the Airservices board hasn't as yet approved the plan.

Hmmm... so they intend to 'turn off' a system that we own and control, and instead rely apon a system we neither own nor control. Might be some interesting liability issues there...










.

[Oktas8]

Might be some interesting liability issues there...

Why? You can't sue someone for decommissioning your favourite navaids. Perhaps I've misunderstood you however.

As for the 2016 timeframe - remove half of all terrestrial navaids within three years? I just can't see it happening. The paperwork alone would swamp AsA managers!*

Cheers,
O8


*This is the primary objection, although you lot might make other objections along airy-fairy grounds like safety and retraining requirements. :\