A Hygiene Issue

[frequentflyer2]

Is it legal for a passenger aircraft to operate for a prolonged period of time without running water in the toilet?
I travelled on a Flybe Dash 8 400 earlier this month. During the flight I visited the WC but could not wash my hands because no water was forthcoming when I pressed the tap on the washbasin. I told the cabin crew the water system was not functioning. They told me pipes had burst during the first of December's 'cold snaps'. They also said it would be about two weeks until the repairs were carried out and offered me one of their own bottles of hand sanitiser for which I was very grateful.
The cabin crew were genuinely distressed about the situation and hated working on the aircraft in question as they could not wash their hands. They didn't have to point out to me that in the course of a shift they must have had to visit the WC between sectors and then serve tea, coffee, drinks and snacks to their next batch of passengers.
I have no doubt the cabin crew in question did their utmost to maintain hygiene standards but the situation was obviously far from ideal.

[Ancient Observer]

That plane should be reported to the CAA who are responsible in the UK for Health and Safety in the cabin.
Whilst I'm not sure whether or not it is written that there must be running water, it is written that proper standards have to be maintained. Have a look at cap 757 and talk to the person referred to in that doc.

[west lakes]

That plane should be reported to the CAA who are responsible in the UK for Health and Safety in the cabin.

Having had dealings with the CAA regarding a hygiene issue, don't waste your time!
Contact the Port Health authority at the airline's HQ. They have more power to deal with such issues!!

[Piltdown Man]

Is it legal for a passenger aircraft to operate for a prolonged period of time without running water in the toilet?

In a word, YES. How long depends on the CAA and operator. In my own company, we are very reluctant to depart without a functioning toilet and/or functioning taps, but will provide bottled water for people to wash their hands with if we have to.

Contact the Port Health authority at the airline's HQ. They have more power to deal with such issues!!

I wouldn't bother. I'm also certain that Flybe would also prefer not to fly with the taps in the sink u/s but considering the average length of flight operated by these aircraft, I wouldn't consider this a big issue. It is more important that the cabin crew could maintain their own levels of hygiene and it appears that they have a found a "work around."

PM

[dwshimoda]

I see where you are coming from, but perhaps a little extreme?

FF2: It's been difficult in recent circumstances to keep everything on the aircraft working perfectly. For example, each night we got back to base recently the toilets had to be dropped and the water tanks emptied, along with all relevant CB's pulled. Even then, there is residual water in the systems which freezes and causes problems.

First flight of the day, if the water bowsers haven't frozen then we refill the tanks and turn all the heaters on. Even then, I have had to take off with a still frozen system, knowing it should defrost shortly.

I don't know the Dash or your sector, but perhaps it could have been a first flight of the day? Also, without checking the MEL, it may be possible to despatch without water. As B & T was alluding to, we often spend longer in areas without access to water than maybe a short sector on a Dash?

We also carry hand sanitisers, so we would provide that plus bottled water if we have a potable water problem.

DW.

[Capetonian]

More worrying than this is the state of the toilets on some longhaul flights after a few hours. Anyone who's flown to/from Central Asia, Indo/Pak region, Africa on the national carriers particularly will know exactly what this is like. As we say in SA ... "sies"

[frequentflyer2]

Are you taking the P1SS?
Were you doing BFS-SYD on this Dash 8-400 flight and you figured you may die from the germs for the 5 day flight?
Have you ever asked the bloke at Burger King if he washed his hands before he went for a slash?
Perhaps the poor girl in Costa Cofee in the terminal had taken a massive dump just prior to serving your latte and failed to go through decomtamination prior to you getting to the gate?
Ever sat on a bus for an hour without running water?
Remember those pics of Michael Jackson in an air tent years ago? Sh1t...thats not you is it Mike?
No I'm not taking the PISS. I simply posed a question and explained the situation which prompted me to ask it. Piltdown Man has answered the question and I'm grateful to him.
The hygiene concerns I mentioned were outlined to me by the cabin crew who made it plain they did not like working on a plane where they could not wash their hands.
They were very aware they were serving drinks and snacks to passengers and also handling money which many people had handled before them.
I do understand the problems the cold snap posed in terms of freezing pipes and to be honest I don't go to Burger King.

[Rob82]

They do have a procedure in Flybe that when the tap in the WC is US, the normal soap dispenser is replaced with a gel hand sanitiser. If the tap in question had been US then i would think that there would have been some hand sanitising gel available in the WC.

If on the other hand it was the airport that couldn't service the aircraft due to pipes on the ground freezing and bursting, then what do you expect Flybe to do? Cancel the flight while they position it to another base to get the toilet serviced perhaps? Who wins then?

[DERG]

Never go anywhere without a pack of babywipes.

[PAXboy]

DERG is correct. My standard kit - even for a day trip on the train to London is:

Bottle of water
Hand/baby wipes
Small bottle of sanitising lotion
Muesli or oat/fruit bar in case of delays
Fully charged mobile phoneIt's funny how, when you get delayed, people look covetously at the well prepared. I wasn't a scout - I just learnt the hard way.

[Juud]

frequentflyer2, I´ll attempt an additional answer to your question, with the caveat that I am cabin- not cockpit crew, and thus not formally trained in use of the MEL.
So I hope that any pilots here will be kind enough to correct any and all mistakes in the following.

To determine what can legally be broken on an aircraft and for how long, every commercial aircraft carries, either in printed or digital form, a Minimum Equipment List or MEL.
The pilots use it to look up what is legal and what is not when it comes to things that are "broken", unserviceable, out of order etc etc.

The operator's MEL is based on a Master Minimum Equipment List or MMEL, held by the regulatory authority, which in your example I think would be the European Aviation Safety Agency or EASA. MMELs (http://easa.europa.eu/certification/flight-standards/MMEL-list.php)

Scrolling down that page, you find the Bombardier Dash 8-400 with clickable PDF files. If you click on them, they turn out to be revisions that have to be read as being in addition to the original MMEL held by the country where the Bombardier is made. In this case Canada.
Going to the Transport Canada website (http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/standards/maintenance-aarpg-mmel-2579.htm) you can unearth their MMEL for the Dash 8-400.

Looking through that for something applicable, I found this:

http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i395/JBMods/Picture1-2.png

The words Any portion of system which operates normally may be used coincide precisely with my experience on other aircraft.

If the lav can be used, use common sense as well and let the passengers use it.

Again, the above description of MELs and their use is what I have gleaned from 25+ years of operating as cabin crew. A passing pilot will hopefully have a look and add the definitive word here. :)

As for the hygienic aspects; they have been admirably addressed by others above. ;)

[frequentflyer2]

As I explained earlier in this thread the hygiene concerns I outlined were those expressed to me by the cabin crew. I know they were taking every step possible to ensure their hands were clean and I had no worries on that front.
I accept that Flybe were legally entitled to use the aircraft without running water in the toilet but that doesn't stop me feeling sorry for the cabin and flight crew. The aircraft is their place of work. I wouldn't like to be employed somewhere I could not wash my hands with soap and water after a "massive dump" as Beer and Tabs put it in an earlier post. Remember too this lack of water was going to continue for at least two weeks.
I don't know what the situation is at every airport but it was obvious at the destination of my flight there was no hope of the crew entering the terminal to use the facilities there. It's far from ideal.

[Juud]

.


You're very welcome, frequentflyer2.

[TopBunk]

Juud

Two comments:

1. In the first column in the MEL extract it says:

30-1 Lavatory Toilet C

I interpret the C as the repair interval, and normally C would be 10 days

2. From the BA B747-400 MEL for Waste Systems

OPERATIONS (O)
Under EU regulations, British Airways aircraft are considered to be food premises and therefore have to have an adequate supply of hot and/or cold water available on-board whenever the aircraft is operating. This can be achieved by the provision of bottled water.

Hope that helps

[Juud]

Indeed it does TopBunk.

I wondered about not "seeing" the repair interval anywhere yesterday; mystery now cleared up. :ok:

Thank you.

[Otto Throttle]

Unfortunately, neither the CAA, Port Authority nor even the local council Environmental Helath Dept would have any interest in the original query.

As other posters have already detailed, it is perfectly legal to operate the aircraft in question with an inoperative WC sink. Indeed it is the CAA who approve this particular operation. Provided the waterless hand gel was installed on the toilet sink (it looks identical to the standard soap dispenser), then there is also no hygiene issue that any of the other authorities would consider serious enough to intervene.

You may be inclined to disagree, but let me tell you this. Even when you have a perfectly serviceable and apparently clean WC and sink, remember the cleaners wipe down your tray table and all other surfaces with the very same cloths they use to wipe down the WC on this and all other aircraft they service.

Enjoy your next in flight sandwich.

[Agaricus bisporus]

I'd add to Otto's remarks that no one is the least bit interested in hygiene on board except the crew and pax. Enforcement is impossible, the CAA say they're an aviation authority not a public health body, the council say talk to the CAA. Even if the council was interested (they do not consider aircraft to be part of their remit) how do you suppose they'd get airside without IDs? No way! I have been involved in efforts to get squalid flight-decks cleaned up and no-one, but no-one is able to do a thing. The only help you'll get is from the crew on the day. Or the media.

And remember - some filthy bastards even change their filthy babies on the tray tables...perhaps Howard Hughes was onto something after all!

[Rush2112]

And remember - some filthy bastards even change their filthy babies on the tray tables...perhaps Howard Hughes was onto something after all!

Ha, that's nothing - a couple of weeks back I saw a woman changing her baby's soiled nappy on the table in the sandwich place I (used to!) frequent!! Sorry for topic drift there...

On topic, I do see the OP's point, up to a point - but how long a flight would be operated by such a plane? Surely just wipe your hands with the sanitiser kindly offered by the CC and get over it?

[Capetonian]

That's bad? I was in the washroom of a restauranrt once and I saw a guy washing his wedding tackle in the handbasin in full view of everybody.

[gchangflyer]

Ha Ha, I also witnessed a similar thing, a woman changing her baby's filthy nappy on the tray table on a full Kulula.com 737...AND SHE WAS SITTING IN THE MIDDLE SEAT! Poor buggers who were sitting either side of her...I really really felt for them!

[frequentflyer2]

On topic, I do see the OP's point, up to a point - but how long a flight would be operated by such a plane? Surely just wipe your hands with the sanitiser kindly offered by the CC and get over it?

I've nothing to get over. I'll say again that I had every faith in the cabin crew's efforts to maintain good hygiene. The concerns I outlined were those expressed to me by them. I was on the plane for less than an hour but remember the length of time they and the flight crew have to spend on the aircraft in the course of one shift is probably the same as a holiday flight to the Canaries or even longer.

[Juud]

frequentflyer2, apart from asking if it is legal or not, I do not see an expressed concern in your first pot.
The reader might infer a concern, but it is not put in words.

A few people here, myself included, used time and energy to find and or explain the answer to your question about legality.
A simple "thank you for that" would have been nice, but you obviously don´t feel the need.
So be it, nobody forced us to answer you, but it seems a shame that such a simple courtesy is not part of your repertoire.

You say you have nothing to get over.
That´s good, because there IS nothing to get over.

An aircraft is one of the bacteriologically filthiest structures in the moder,n world. Everything said by posters above is true. ;)
Washing your hands after having used the lavatory is the norm, it´s what we were all raised to do and with good reason.
It does however have ZERO impact on an aircraft because as soon as you touch the doorhandle, all those bacteria are right there again.
Then there´s the tray tables, sea belts, overhead locker doors, seat cusions and pockets; anything and everything you touch on that aircraft is grossly unhygienic.

It´s a flying petri dish filled with unimaginable horrors.
As aircrew, our immune systems have mainly grown used to this; we spend our working lives thriving among the dirt, sustained by the odd & infrequent dash of antibac gel.

As hinted at by others here; filthiest of the filthiest are the cockpits, and several studies have demonstrated that pilot sickness can be markedly reduced by proper cockpit cleaning.
The issue is not on managers' radar.

As for cabin crew health, nobody seems to care either, unless it is to beat us about the head with it if we happen to get a cold over Xmas

Thank you for your concern though, it's nice that you at least care. :)

[Agaricus bisporus]

Ooow! My remark about Howard Hughes was mainly in jest - I did not intend to raise his avatar here...

I doubt very much that an aircraft is actually one of the bacteriologically filthiest structures on the planet...if they were there would be a massive and demonstrable health hazard and that is clearly not the case, else crews in their thousands and pax in their hundreds of thousands would be dropping like flies. Lets keep a hold of reality here and not go completely OTT. The reason we need operating bogs is so people can take "physiological breaks". It isn't reasonable to expect people to be locked up for hours without that facility (even short haul gets delays). Water in the basin is a far easier and less contentious issue as there are several alternatives.

If you are so twitched as to get steamed up over seat belts, door handles and locker catches you're in biiig trouble wherever you go in life, absolutely everywhere. Except perhaps the hermetically sealed penthouse on top of the Las Vegas Novotel...

[Rollingthunder]

Well, we had very efficient and meticulous cleaning teams. I never once ran into a situation worthy of complaint. Never met a U/S lav, toilet or sink. Never met an unclean seat cover or table tray or dirty carpet. Seatcovers were changed on an as needed basis and also in zone changes on a regular sked. Cabin mtce can be done to a high standard, it just needs the committment to do so and good staff.