Civil Service Redundancy Package

[TwoTunnels]

Just read (in a 6 day old newspaper, obviously) that UK Civil Service redundancy package is now reduced from 36 to 21 months pay. It is for voluntary redundancy but very, very different from UK Armed Forces package which will be down from 9 (or 6 months, depending on pension scheme) to 3 months in April 2013.
Have I read this wrong or does this seem a very good deal?

[Arty Fufkin]

The civil service have unions, and leadership with the minerals to fight the governments intended slaying of their redundancy packages. They went to court and won.
The reductions in our redundancy deals were slipped quietly under the radar, with the government safe in the knowledge that the only obligation they have to servicemen and women is a moral one, and that isn't worth the paper it's written on. Redundancy, allowances, pay, pensions...... Why shouldn't the government feel able to reduce them as they feel fit? It isn't as if we are in a position to do anything about it.

Come the revolution!

[Jimlad1]

Bluntly its like comparing chalk and cheese. The CS and the Military operate on totally different pay and allowances systems, and its very difficult to draw a direct comparison between the two.

The CS system on paper appears generous, but I believe that the most generous payments are reserved for very long serving individuals on voluntary terms. For the vast majority of serving CS, the payments are very considerably lower - I could be wrong here, but IIRC its in the region of a months salary for every year worked.

Please do not think that the CS about to be made redundant will all be walking away with nearly two years salary, as the vast majority won't be. Also remember that pay in the CS is a lot lower than in the military at pretty much every level, so while 21 months may sound a lot, when the average civil servant earns under £20K per year, in reality they're walking away with well under £40K at best, and in reality for most it will be nearer £20K. They also do not get the same pension situation as the armed forces -which for longer serving forces personnel will be a safety net if they are eligible for it to be paid on leaving - CS won't see theirs till proper retirement age.

I do think the cut to 3 months is a disgrace though.

[dctyke]

Right folks, I have my wifes latest CS pension statement from last month. For her 20yrs service her pension would be £4,714 per year with a lump sum of £14,143. At age 60 they reckon it will be £5,845 with a lump sum of £17,537. Only the few 'big boys' get the real money!

[Arty Fufkin]

I have now recovered from my sense of outrage.

Happy new year.

[Truck2005]

Jimlad is correct. The deal is 21 months if you VER, 15 months if you are CERed. The 21 months VER will only be paid to those that have been in the longest with the 1 month/years service controlling it.

My establishment has just released over half our workforce, most left on the old terms. The rest of us go in a couple of years on the new terms, (the vast majority will only take the 12 months as it will be CER although under the new terms the employer MUST offer individuals the choise of taking either VER or CER).

The obvious impact on the choise is when insurances are involved. If you VER companies will obviously opt not to pay out as you left by choise. Job seekers will not be paid, apart from getting 6 months on a Contribution base.

Just to let you have an idea of the differences Jim talks about, an SAC tech with 3 years service gets at least £2000 more than I am getting with over 25 years in the RAF and 10 years with the MOD as an engineer. I chose to come into MOD so that was my own doing but there is an overwhelming idea that we are all fat cats. The real fact is many of us are doing the exact work some of you guys are doing for way less pay and pensions, (and that includes working in Afghanistan).

[TwoTunnels]

Cheers all,

I thought it was a bit too good to be completely true (and it only got 1/2 column inch in the paper.)

3 months package is still sh1te though...

TT

[Jimlad1]

Really Annoyed -ref forum cover, the CS are covered under the

"and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground."...

[Biggus]

Really an idiot......

So the phrase "...and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground...." doesn't include the civil servants in MOD in your deluded opinion...

I was being polite in the choice of the word "idiot"! :ok:

Rats - Jimlad beat me to it...

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Depends on how you want to spin it

"Military Aircrew"

"A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here."

Seems to imply that it's a forum solely for Army, Navy and Airforce folk from around the world but hey that's just my humble opinion.

Edited to add I personally could not give a rats arse about who posts what in here, that's the job of the moderators :ok:

[Sun Who]

These forums would be poorer if all the non (currently) serving types stopped posting.

We'd lose Beagle for a start........;)

Sun

[Biggus]

Really an idiot....

Who said I was a civil servant, pen pushing or otherwise...? Wrong! ;)


Maybe some day when you grow up, or if you actually develop into a decent human being, you might learn the art of appreciating what other people do without actually having done it yourself...

[BEagle]

Sun Who, when one lives in glass houses, it behoves one not to throw stones! Remind us who it was who, only yesterday at 2140, wrote: I left the RAF 2 years ago after 25 years...

[Sun Who]

Beags,
I'm not throwing stones mate.:ouch: I'm very much an ex and I suspect, if all us 'exes' stopped posting, the boards would be very much quieter.

Sun.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Does that not mean that technically neither of you should be posting in here :E

[Sun Who]

I'm not feeling loved.:sad:

Sun

[Jimlad1]

Oh god, this has turned into yet another CS bashing event - what a surprise.

Look, I'm a MOD CS whose spent years working in direct support of UK forces, both in the UK and Iraq, doing all sorts of stuff, best not discussed here, which has directly impacted on keeping UK troops alive. I'm also a reservist, and I've spent years doing a near identical job in uniform, both in the UK and Afghanistan. I'm concious that in the eyes of some, confessing to being a civilian and a partimer makes me untermensch. However, I am bloody proud of the fact that in both civvies and uniform I've been able to make a difference, that I've helped do things that have helped to keep people from all 3 services in one piece.

I'm not going to pretend that the CS is perfect - its far from perfect and we have our fair share of muppets. However, for every muppet we have, we have plenty of first rate, incredibly dedicated people who genuinely give a damn about supporting the forces to the best of our ability. There are a lot of CS out there who deploy (quite a few have done enough time to qualify for, but obviously not get, the ACSM) and we really do want to do the best we can for our forces colleauges. I'd say that the same ratio applies to the forces - I've spent years working purple, and have met some first rate types (particularly from the RAF), and have also met some throbbers in roughly the same proportion.

If CS sometimes seem a bit down, don't forget that we are working in an incredibly difficult environment where 1 in 3 MOD CS will be made redundant within the next 3 years. The total level of post SDSR cuts we face is 25,000 - thats 25% greater than the cuts all 3 services combined face.

[Dengue_Dude]

My resettlement interviews were with Coutts.

The man said 'Armed Forces are lumped in with ex - Offenders', we initially thought he was joking . . . he wasn't.

If you're leaving they are NOT INTERESTED in you. Oh, and by the way, if you're staying the same applies, but don't upset their spreadsheets.

Nobody is going to stick up for you if you don't do it yourself. The 'holier than thou' brigade will doubtless quote that HMAF are apolitical - only if you choose to stay that way. Loyalty is ONE WAY, either believe it or wait for it to be proven again . . . and again. . . and again. Even the obtuse eventually get the message.

No politician WANTS the armed forces, they just acknowledge that they NEED them to further their own personal and 'corporate' ends.

Is it offensive - damn right, but that's just it . . . you don't have any rights (because HMAF are apolitical - has a certain symmetry doesn't it?)

Best of luck guys and gals. Took me years to realise.

[MrBernoulli]

..... don't forget that we are working in an incredibly difficult environment where 1 in 3 MOD CS will be made redundant within the next 3 years. A fair point perhaps, but neither should one forget how many uniformed personnel will likewise be made redundant ..... and the wars, with their commensurate delivery of bomb, bullet and shell, still have to be fought by somebody!

With regard to the somewhat off-topic stuff about who can and can't post on these forums, I firmly believe that retirees, who then fall on to the Reservist List, are perfectly entitled to post here. :E

[Al R]

dctyke: Right folks, I have my wifes latest CS pension statement from last month. For her 20yrs service her pension would be £4,714 per year with a lump sum of £14,143. At age 60 they reckon it will be £5,845 with a lump sum of £17,537. Only the few 'big boys' get the real money!


Which is one of the reasons why Public Sector Pensions, from next year, will be based on career average earnings with (in all probability) a decent slug of personal contribution.

[Jimlad1]

You know, I bet Really Annoyed is the sort of daily mail reader who gets stuck in a loop when told that Immigrants are the natural prey of Paedophiles...

I would waste time responding to the ill informed, completely innacurate rubbish he's spouting, but as he hasn't bothered to read any of the threads details, which would show that he's talking complete b*llocks, I suspect he would just go off on another rant, prior to writing a letter to the editor of the daily mail with lots of angry words in it.

I've spent years of my life, working with the RAF and seeing first hand what an incredibly professional first rate organisation it is. Along the way, I've done a lot that directly has helped them keep aircraft in the air, and aircrew (and rockapes too) alive. I'm rather proud of that, but as I don't wear a growbag, and have the audacity to be a civilian, I will now go and repeatedly beat myself with a stick while chanting 'I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy'...

[Spot 4]

For her 20yrs service her pension would be £4,714 per year with a lump sum of £14,143.

A serviceman who leaves before completing 22 years gets no pension at all.
....and there will be people made redundant who fall into this bracket, some by months rather then years.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

You sure about that Spot 4 :confused:

[Yozzer]

The stats suggest that every UK job has 19 applicants going for it. A Recruitment chap on Sky TV this morning stated that the fiqure for career jobs was nearer to 30 per position.

So now lets take an RAF Sgt aged 40 who as he joined at age 20 has not yet completed his 22 year pensionable engagement. Have to confess that I too thought he would get nothing beyond a small bronze goodbye and a state pension at age 65 and climbing. What therefore are the facts? ....because anybody with subordinates could be putting their foot in it big time come March if we do not know.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Just Google AFPS 75 and AFPS 05 and you will find a lot of what you need to know in there.

[Al R]

Yozzer,

A male born in 1970 is currently scheduled to draw their State Pension at 67 (watch and shoot). If he left the Service at say, the 21 year point, he'd be entitled to a Preserved Pension/Pension Revision/Terminal Grant etc at 60/65 (dependent on 75 or 05), but all he'd get when leaving would be the Resettlement Grant. So, yes - people need to plan ahead - the sooner the better.

I don't know where you are posted, but I'm at Odiham and Kinloss again in Jan, doing some more financial awareness briefings.

[dctyke]

spot 4:
Quote:
For her 20yrs service her pension would be £4,714 per year with a lump sum of £14,143.
A serviceman who leaves before completing 22 years gets no pension at all.
....and there will be people made redundant who fall into this bracket, some by months rather then years.

Sorry, should have said. It's only because she is over 55, under that she would recieve no pension either!

[scarecrow450]

Prey tell what do you two brave pen pushers do that helps get a military aircraft airborne?

Well I (and my four other CS workmates) tell heli's to start, obtain their IF clearances, display the weather, sit in the rover with a QHFI and a clansman, when 1 st solo's do their 1 st solo. Oh yes and listen to Stud 1 when the aircraft call a fire warning caption on start, then I pick up the crash phone and get the crash crews there within 1 min. But thats all sorry !

[Truck2005]

There you go again, Mr Annoyed. A totally blinkered outlook at life. The only time I have anything to do with a paperclip/staple is when attaching 731s to a job card.

I have never spent time in an office, prefering to work on the hangar floor where I have been since leaving the RAF 10 years ago. ALL of my time has been spent working alongside the service guys keeping the aircraft flying on ops. I have worked well beyond my conditioned hours to ensure that the crews get their frames and I will not let some misinformed idiot spew out a load of drivel trying to say that all civilian MOD employees are non-productive wasteofspaces.

I may be taking the bait but my workmates and many like us work bloody hard to keep the workload as low as possible at the squadron level, they work hard enough as it is.

So let it go, Mr Annoyed, your comments show what a sad man you are.

By the way, what office do you work in?

[John M]

If I were to jump to conclusions just as Really Annoying does, then I would assume that, due to his protestations as to who should and should not post here, he is currently serving as military aircrew. As for his comments in regards to CS sitting in offices then I can only assume that he lives in a blinkered world where he has never seen a civvy bowser driver who brings the fuel to his aircraft, has never eaten an in flight meal which may have been prepared by a civvy chef, has never seen the MT driver who hauls an aircraft engine from one end of the country to the other for an AOG. All of these people may be members of the CS, just as some of them may be contractors.
I am sure those of you who understand the military and the CS can see the point I am making. Unfortunately Really Annoying will carry on like the t****r he is, hurling insults at anyone who cares to listen with blissful ignorance of the subject of which he speaks.

John

[Junglydaz]

After a long read of this thread, I am of the opinion that Really Annoyed is just fishing and has caught some tiddlers.:suspect:........either that or he REALLY is a narrow minded individual lacking in the knowledge of the workings of the MoD. :\

[thing]

I'm a teacher now after my 22 years as a techy, saw the writing on the wall when Gordon went into meltdown and applied for an early pension at 55 which is next Feb. I'm damn glad I did because I've no doubt that Cameron et al will bump up superann and reduce pension payouts for all CS.

[Art Field]

As ex aircrew of even greater than Beagles vintage I feel I have something to contribute at times to the genuine debates on this forum. The moderators invite me to comment and maybe even start a subject, I think a more welcoming attitude to all sensible contributors would greatly improve the quality of discussion. Whingers for whingers sake not welcome.

[minigundiplomat]

The current generation of officers carve a career out of reinventing the wheel on a 2 year cycle. It's encouraged and actually required for promotion.

The problem exists when those that have trodden the path before point out that square wheels don't work. Neither do hexagonal or triangular wheels.

Those whose future careers depend on reinventing the wheel in any other form but the previous incumbents often get defensive when faced with sage advice from the old and bold.

That's why there is occasional bitterness towards posts from those who have left, and why this forum must continue to welcome them.

[teeteringhead]

Thank you mgd - explained perfectly! (can I stay then?? ;))


Edited to add: and we can keep cliffnemo too!!

[scarecrow450]

No its the aircrew that are scared and can't turn on radio on.

And we are'nt getting the sack !

[r supwoods]

CS are carp .... there is too many of them ... I am one ... please let me go, I know I am a scarce discipline but I have had enough of the bloody infighting and cost cutting ... so please can I go voluntarily ..... just line my palm with cash .....