Anyone actually like Emirates? (Hamster Wheel Thread)

[sig83]

I have combed through these forums for Emirates information and what it is like in DXB, but all I read are horror stories. Being this is a forum I know its only a small percentage of people from EK who post, but does anyone like it there or is it really hell like you all make it out to be? I was offered an airbus class, but also have an opportunity at a US low cost carrier and am trying to decide between the two. Any insight is appreciated and Merry Christmas

[White Knight]

Yep - horror stories abound! Yep - rosters are cr@p Yep - it's damn hot in the summer;

But, after 8 years at EK I still enjoy the flying. Great people to fly with from many different places. Good variety (ok - India 6 times a month at night is bl00dy hard work), all the new kit, yep - shiny aeroplanes (makes a change from 30 year old Barons)etc...

As for family life - my wife and kids are more than happy! If you come here 'eyes wired shut' then you'll struggle:rolleyes::rolleyes: Homework is a simple thing! Seems to me like many don't do it...

I could also tell you that many, many guys and girls are quite cheerful here - just from chatting on the line! You will get the sad sacks like LHR Rain, SheikhmyArse and so on, but that's life... Oh yeah - where's Mensaboy when we need him LOL:hmm::hmm:

I'll be accused of 'rose tinted specs' but I had that many years ago when I joined EK EYES WIDE OPEN:ok:

[MumbaiRadio]

not too bad out here. you work really hard for your money however family is happy .. long term mindset helps it's not a '..couple of years ..' kind of place.

[sig83]

Thanks for the quick reply. I am trying my best to filter through the negative posts to see if its really that bad or typical forum banter. I have a big decision to make and am trying to do as much homework as I can. Thanks!

[Alconguin Crusader]

Sig stay in the states, that is the best advice anyone can give. The pilots replying do not live or work in the states and probably never have so they don't know the difference. Even though the US has gone down in recent years it is still leaps and bounds better than the rest of the world and not just in pay.
In the middle east there are no rights and a contract is to protect the company from you, not you from the company. There are four items in my "contract" that the company does not honor.
There is no unions (they are outlawed for obvious reasons) so the company does whatever they want.
The flying is very tough. 90 plus hours with all kinds of bad flying. In the middle of the night and east west flying.
There is no FAA and the ATC is very bad.
If you come you will be in for a big shock of how things operate in the middle east, both with Emirates and Dubai.
I left a good airline and regret if big time. I wish I could go back but I will forever be an ex-pat and it sucks. No protection and you get screwed everytime you read your emails. Keep that in mind when you resign your senority number.
Most Americans are looking to go back. Some are not even wait to check out as captain. Think long and very hard about coming over.
The pilots defending the company are doing you a big disservice and probably are management anyway.

[ManaAdaSystem]

And you live in Michigan?

[CEP]

Alconguin Crusader

and the ATC is very bad


I do apologize for us mere mortals trying to keep the system together here....maybe we should import some of your local controllers to do the job properly.....ooops, I forgot, we've already tried that .....didn't work too well.....

Most Americans are looking to go back

Please be one of them...

[Iver]

Zing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GoreTex]

I would give my left arm to work for an US carrier, even jet blue.
if you come to EK and get your upgrade after 8 years then what?
you still in the middle east, with a bit more money but thats it, the company screws you the same.
if you want to go back to the US you start at the bottom of the food chain again, but you might be too old for that then.
think twice before you come to EK or the middle east

[Nuuk]

Sig,

The most important question you have to answer yourself is where do you want to be in 5-8 years time? Will you miss a great or good long term opportunity to fly in the Middle East? Then what?
After a few years will you have the same opinion about being here, will you regret your move or will you be happy for ever after?
Few things to ponder choosing between civil world vs third world (Dubai is a modern cosmopolitan city with lots of malls (where you are not allowed to hold hands in public) that can offer a good outdoor lifestyle). Maybe read the Gulf News online and self educate yourself if you could be comfortable with the local way, as said previously, you really have to educate yourself on the airline, the city and the country.
If you can close your eyes on the DXB and EK dark sides on the long term you will be happy here, if it gets under your skin you will be so miserable.
Now let's say you take the EK job and enjoy a few good years. You get fed up after a few years, what will be your options out of here? Will you do the sacrifice again of starting at the bottom of a seniority list back home, go corporate, be a contract pilot?
Certainly the first few years will be enjoyable, discovering something new. When the discovery is over what's next? Shall I stay or shall I go?

Good luck!

[Gillegan]

Thanks for the quick reply. I am trying my best to filter through the negative posts to see if its really that bad or typical forum banter. I have a big decision to make and am trying to do as much homework as I can. Thanks!

Filter out the emotion but pay close attention to the specifics. While not all of the specific complaints are accurate, most are and the ones that aren't are usually "outed" pretty quickly.

There is certainly a "different" attitude to what constitutes a contract here. Scheduling and Leave are currently the big issues and I'm sorry to say, it doesn't look like the company's attitude towards either is going to change much. What you will find is that the abuse is not over 100% of the pilots. Some guys have carved out pretty good niches for themselves and are happy - the question is whether you will be one of them or fall within the other group who are being egregiously abused. Be aware that you will probably not have much power over which group you find yourself in.

[Alconguin Crusader]

Are guys really happy at Emirates or are they just telling themselves they are happy because they have no options? There is a lot of delusion going on and as I mentioned in an earlier post a lot of medications from the clinic are used to get to that state of "happiness."
8 days off a month for the last year and no end in sight is a sure bet for an early grave especially with the type of flying we do.
Save your marriage, your health and sanity and stay in the US. You will be glad that you did. Emirates is no long term solution.

[poina]

Sig,

I got no dog in this fight as I was with Saudia for 19 years, but here's my ex-pat perspective.
The only way it's worth working outside the US is MONEY. Can you put 60k in the bank after expenses and toys? I'm sure this is possible, but only as a Captain. So if u r being offered a job (as I suspect u r) as FO, how many qualified, proven, pilots are above you in the line for the left seat?
How much older will you be in the 5-10 years you remain in the lineup? Can you contribute to a company retirement plan? Will you be protected by a union agreement for salary and job security? Will you have to work like a dog (no offense meant) as the Emirates guys are now and seems obvious will continue?

My advice is to remove the rose colored glasses and work in the same country as your passport and be in a position to take advantage of the retirement numbers at all the major US airlines. Sure, the bene's are not what they once were but Emirates ain't Delta, UA, AA, SWA, etc.

[a747jb]

Hi Sig and to all that may be in your similar situation.

I figured i would give you an opinion from a fellow yank on the airbus fleet here at EK. First off, there are some very bad things about working for EK, but there are also some very good things. I think the honest truthful answer to your question of whether anybody is happy here at EK is that everyone here is both happy and unhappy. We love some things and hate others. The only question is which outweighs which. That is different for everyone. So, here are somethings, both bad and good that I think are important in helping you make your decision.

Bad, in a nutshell, schedules and quality of life. Especially since they offered you the airbus. That is a for sure if you come now. What will happen in the future with the 380 and the 350's coming, we all think it will improve, but like anything else, there are no guarantee's. Other things that will irk you is that you have to pay for travel here, you may or may not get your vacation time you ask for, you certainly won't get the trips you ask for near as often as you might hope, and life in Dubai can be frustrating (pay close attention to the UAE ID Card thread, it gives you an example as to how some get along well here, but most are just horribly frustrated).

Now, there are some things that are very good about EK. For starters, and for me this is huge even though it effects very few folks, EK are simply unmatched when it comes long term sick leave. I have had several friends effected by this for a wide variety of reasons and terms. None of them ever stopped getting their basic salary even though they did occasionally have to do office duties. They never worried about if their pay check would stop or if they would be fired (there may be others with different experiences that I don't know about). Secondly, you will have good job security here, of course nobody can predict the future, but for now its as safe as it gets. The third big plus in my opinion is the people you will meet and become life friends with, even after you go back home. Be it guys you fly with, your neighbor, whomever, Everyone here has a friend from virtually every continent and region of the globe. Never down play this because you never know where you might end up, and lets face it, friends and family are the most important thing to anyone, regardless of where you are from.

There are many other good things and bad things about working here. What I can tell you is in my opinion, now is a good time to stay in the US. There are literally thousands of retirements in the next 10 years. If ever there was a time to have job security in the States, the next few years will be that time, just from retirements. Nearly 65 percent or more (depending on what stats you look) of the US major and LCC pilots are over the age of 50. If you come here now, you are losing out the very thing you are probably coming here for. Again, nobody can predict the future.

Now, on a final opinion, I am going looking to leave EK for the exact reason I state above. Things are not what I had hoped for here and my schedule on the bus is so bad I can hardly see straight. Its easy to get stuck here, so just be aware of that when you come this way. Everything aside, I would not trade my last 3 years here for anything in terms of the people I have met, the friends I have made, and the experiences in flying that I have gained. That being said, I honestly think it would be tough to find a more dishonest and uncaring group of management than what you will find at EK and most middle east carriers. Think US management with absolutely nothing holding them back from changing the rules. So, its time for me to move on, and hence give you my opinions. In short, I am both happy and very unhappy. That is me. But take the facts from the first 2 paragraphs more serious than my opinions when making your decision. Good luck to you and happy holidays.

[Wizofoz]

747,

Nice, balanced and well thought out post. Best of luck with getting back to the US, with an attitude like yours, you will no doubt make wherever you end up work.

AC,

Just had a quick look- you made your first post bitching about EK in April 2008. Out of interest, how many other jobs have you applied for in the last 2 1/2 years?

[fatbus]

AC - why did you leave a good job .

[sheikhmahandy]

Short answer to the original question of happiness at EK is no.

Just completed a ULR, the U standing for Ultra, and all four flight deck, including a new joiner inside 6 months, are looking to leave. The cabin crew were dropping like flies with illness as well due fatigue.

It is sad the way this company has gone and the managers should be ashamed of themselves for developing the situation of the last two years. From the best to one of the worst is such a short time:ugh:

There is little doubt what is coming as the rosters keep hitting the 100hr mark with the mix of time zone, back of the clock flying we have to do and lack of time off to recover, let alone have a life.:mad: Unfortunately, we are not alone as engineering, cabin crew, ground staff etc are pushed to breaking point as well.

The sooner the better for me, and that will leave yet another position for the rose coloured glasses brigade.

The swiss cheese is lining up and blind Freddie can see that, but management unfortunately cannot.:=

[hardhit]

Working for any Arab country is jumping into HELL. Personally, I have experienced that in Qatar airways the so called Five Star airline(only for Cabin crew!!!!!)

You are living in a civilised country...Come to Gulf and you will repent. These brain suckers will make your life miserable.

A better choice is Turkey. This country is everything close to european standards. Here you will get one month on and 1 week off. Not so in UAE.

Think before you leap. Best of Luck

[ManaAdaSystem]

SIG, some info on Mr Alconguin Crusader, just so you know what kind of gentleman he is. This may make it a bit easier to judge the advices he gives you.

A PM to me from said gentleman:

And what 3rd world country are you from? I know form previous posts you are either an oppressor or come from an oppressed state.
You would kill to live in the states but you are probably happy to live in your 3rd world police state with its illegimate government.
Happy Trails 3rd world loser.

Marry Xmas to you all!

[Schibulsky]

Do you have any idea what the P stands for in PM??
:=

[ManaAdaSystem]

Do you think I care, Schibulsky?

Do you mean I should not expose Mr White Supremacy for what he is? Thing is, when people like him gets booted from his land of milk and honey and are forced to work for the very people they, let say, think are slightly below themselves, do you expect them to post anything positive about their new lives and their new company?

Personally, I think there are quite a few like him in the ME and on this board.

[Alconguin Crusader]

Well Mana the management. What was the comment you made about Michigan?
I did not get booted from the land of milk and honey. That land would be the land of Isreal by the way. I am sure you are very familiar with Isreal after they have kick countries like yours only 5 times in 50 years.
I left on my own after listening to the lies told to me my this corrupt management we have at Emirates. I wish there was a decent and honest forum on pprune at the time to expose the lies but there was not at the time. Most guys were pretty happy at the time and the Americans had not started to come at that time to get the real assesement. I wish I could go back but too late now. I fell for it.
That is one of the reasons I tell everyone out there about the lies, corruption and theft perpertrated by the management and the management wantabies. I do bitch because I am upset about the lies and how I fell for it.
As I said before if there is anyting that is not the truth please let me know. The way they act here is just hypercritical. They are so racist but when one points out the inequities here you are the one deamed racist. You are talking about a 3rd world police state that institutionalizes racism. There are no rules and they do whatever they want, contract be dammed. Who would not be racist after spending even a month in the sand.
I have applied to other airlines Wiz the DEC but you see I have no PIC time and I am not prepared to jump the senority list. Rest assured I will not be a long termer here which you will quite happy about.

[ManaAdaSystem]

I rest my case.

[reallybored]

hi sig, I am an american and I cannot recommend you coming here especially because you have an offer from a US carrier. If you were
out of a job that is one thing but... after much reflection and time past,
I have realized that I have left the best country in the world in my opinion and and am now working hard to get back under some type of reasonable pay level. Most americans can never truly appreciate our home until after we have left. Just my 2 cents, take it for what it is worth. I lurk on this site all the time but rarely post, I just feel obligated to give you my 2 cents since you requested it and I am really feeling quite wistful about my homeland during another holiday spent far far away.

after a few years here you will get over the widebody international thing and then this will just become another job in a place which can be tough to live in at times. merry christmas and happy new year.

[flyzede]

Hi,

First of all I think we need to clarify what is your happiness all about.
1. Is it to work in your country, even if that means working on a small airline with few layovers?
2. Is your happiness boosted according to your bank account?
3. Are you, as a pilot, happy with flying narrow body aircrafts the rest of your life? Or you just don't give a damn about the aircraft you are flying?

We are all different... and what is good for me could be bad for anyone else... What you might find happy... could be boring for me...
The human being is never 100% satisfied.

Good luck!

[fliion]

Anyone happy at EK???, you ask?

Dont know, you'd have to ask the 2450 pilots who dont bother drivelling on about the place on pprune...too busy living their lives, raising kids, drinking beer and moving on when something better comes up...

Cant quite figure out why you would pay attention to the suiciders on here...they've been saying the same thing for years, yet they dont have the talent or courage to leave..because the yellowbrick rd..well enough said

But one thing that legitimately no-one will forgive or forget...is the raising of the over-time threshold,,,it was and is a huge pay-cut, literally 5000-15000dhs in pay per month that we all signed for in our contract - In one email it was taken,,,..and yet in this time of record profits continues to be denied. It provokes much anger on anonymous web blogs and rightly so.....but

Ek is still one of the jobs in aviation that ticks a lot of boxes, Picking the wife and kids up and coming here is momentous, electing to do it again and go back because of anger is another....

here for the long (ish) haul

f.

[troff]

We like it here.

No income tax (pick this one apart- go ahead), free accommodation, (almost free utilities), no expenses for changing seasons (car, clothes, house).
Some travel benifits, kid's education almost all covered. Reasonable medical coverage.
Cheap cars, weather is nice the better part of the year.
It could be worse in other places and/ or with other companies.

It's all good- once you push...

I'm just so f'n tired. :(

'Nuff said.

T

[Mysalami]

I do like how these "someone tell me EK is ok so I wont feel too bad about deciding to join even after reading all the bad stuff" threads.

If you think you can survive 10yrs in the right seat, while raising a family in Dubai, welcome aboard. If you don't, you need to be thinking about somewhere else. If you get the left seat any earlier its a bonus. Its that easy really.

[nolimitholdem]

The biggest thing that will kill you is just plain old fatigue. The money or toys or so-called "job security" (don't :mad: up now sonny!), none of it matters when you're Just. Plain. Tired. All the time. You will quite literally be selling yourself physically, every bit as much as the two-bit whores at Rattlesnakes. Even the happy-clappy multi-year apologists have to admit it has changed radically over the last 2 years. The recovery time between flights just isn't there.

Even on the 380...does anyone really think they will enjoy their rosters the way they are forever? Not when the greedy little pricks who run the show have seen how they were able to use the Global Economic Crisis as an excuse to screw their employees as hard as they could for massive profits. If anyone thinks they're trying to bring the 777/330/340 rosters to the point the 380 rosters are, and not the other way around, they are seriously deluded.

The other factor being, you will not know what it's like living in a place where the overall system is run by one that promotes hate, that tries to divide all humanity into two classes, "brothers" and unbelievers. If that sort of thing appeals to you and you really think that the accumulation of a little bit of wealth is the end-all, be-all perhaps you will enjoy it.

[Schibulsky]

I came to EK with the plan to do around 5 years...and after 2 years the bucket for the brown stuff was full! :uhoh:
As a single guy I actually enjoyed the first year...but after I did all the things (desert tours, Oman, Rugby7's, golf, beaching etc.) it became boring and I ended up boozing more than I should. And on top of that I couldn't take any more sh!t from the management and the hypocrites in charge of that sandy s...hole.:yuk:
I know just a few guys who can cope and live a happy life...the rest are simply there to make some money and plan to get out as soon as they find just something else....

The most important lesson I learned: It's all about quality of life.
Good luck!!:p

[ManaAdaSystem]

It was not a personal message, it was a personal insult, and one that speaks volumes about the person who sent it. On a positive, he did not do it again, the next PM was a minor f@rt in the wind compare to the first.

I have no intentions of protecting people who insult me. If you want to say something to me, go right ahead, but have the b@lls to do it out in the open.

[troff]

new tomcat

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New England
Posts: 22

Troff

By your comments on PPRuNe you act and think like a Canadian. Your comment to leave if you dont like it makes me think you are an Arab.
That is a dangerous mix of nationalities. Stop acting like both and you will be a better person and not such a wimpy dip ****e.

Tom

new tomcat: Meow your sorry ar$e out of this dark alley, or your ear will get clipped.

[CFM-56NG]

I WORKED IN THERE FOR 3 YEARS AND THANKS GOD I FOUND SOMETHING BETTER.....
Sig,
I dont know your exact situation but let me tell you my experience....
I am a graduate from ERAU and i live in 3rd world country so called in south america..... and my view to the point is not how much money you can make in the sandpit but how long can you survive in there.....
its true in the first and second years are nice, enjoying the tax free stuff..... but what about the next step???? (becoming capt)
if you can cope with all the crap given from the mgnt and just turn a blind eye on a professional maner....(that´s a lil silly to say) go ahead, but just don´t expect them to honor their contract because they won´t and thats 100% real .... you can ask the 2450 pilot in the company and if anyone tells you that they never had at least 1 item change in their contract changed .. this person is a local for sure......
You are the one whom to decide you future despite all the negative stuff writen here.... i was there for 3 years and thanks god the industry in my country is booming like never before!!! so e came back .... there is no perfect company. Ek is a horrible airline to work if you can´t cope with all the items above listed by the other´s... I couldnt so I got out and found myself a lot happier in my country making a lil lower salary yes is true...but i fly a lot less than ek .... (and i was in the 777 hoster....a lil better the ab just coz we bitch a lil more to mgt) but above all
it´s MY COUNTRY!!!!! and there is no idiot arab saying if you dont like dont come here or all the unreal sh#$t you´ll get living in there .. i just cant say what it is... you have to live in there to know .... its just very disorganized place with no fair laws... its just my opinion having that I am a western with a similar knowledge of what is to be a f/0 in ek since that i havent seeing any one who actually left the airline write in here...

this guy has the best and most accurate opinion and discretion of all a747jb:D:D Grate job 747!!!
judge as he say and you will do just fine!!!
sorry if I couldnt describe my feelings in a very polite way!!!!
Good luck in you jorney!!!!!:ok::ok::ok:

[MrMachfivepointfive]

Jeez guys. Don't drink and post. Or at least use a 'spell checker'.

[moggiee]

I'm not at EK but work in the UAE and have to say that the advice to "come here with your eyes open" and "work out what you want from the job" is absolutely spot on.

I'm here because a) I wanted to earn more money than was available to me in the UK and b) see answer a)! The UAE is not a democracy and some of the rules seem pretty odd to a westerner but the standard of living is good, we have the freedom to buy beer and bacon, crime is practically non-existant and areas such as schools and healthcare etc are pretty good (I speak as someone married to a teacher and who recently had his life saved by a first class surgeon on Abu Dhabi).

It will drive you mad at times and at other times you will look around you and say "I'm glad I'm here" - but then there is a strong chance that your home country will do the same to you.

Overall I'm glad I'm here but then I'm in Al Ain which (in my opinion) is a better place for someone with a family than Dubai. If I was single, I would want to live in Dubai!:zzz:

[sig83]

Thank you everyone for the words of advice and insight to life over there. Its still the biggest decision of my career and of course will make the best decision for me. I am waiting on a final outcome from the other US company and will make a decision then. If they say no then they will make my decision for me. I hope everyone have a wonderful New Year.

[stylo4444]

"and there is no idiot local saying if you dont like dont come here"

^^I have to ask, you go anywhere you'll have that said to you. Be it the UAE, the US, Canada...wherever. So really, to say that is a bit pointless.

What one person considers to be happiness, is not what another would agree with. I am not a pilot, so maybe I am in no position to comment...but as someone that has traveled the world, lived in multiple countries for several years at a time...happiness really depends on where you come from as well, and the lifestyle you are used to. Take a 3rd world country in Asia, or a developing nation in South America...life in the UAE might just be worth it, there are those few advantages that simply outweigh the disadvantages. Now let's say you live in the U.S. or another western country...well the disadvantages such as "no freedom", questionable laws, and being treated like a second class citizen...you're just not going to like it there.

Personally, I think it just depends on where you come from and the lifestyle you're used to. I often find that those coming from developing nations would appreciate life in the UAE more, whereas those coming from westernized nations often tend to struggle or not like it as much...for obvious reasons. However, Dubai is still very multicultural and you get to see it from many different points of view. To each their own, and I hope the choice you make is the right one for yourself.

[falconeasydriver]

Some of you guys really need to get a grip, I mean seriously..get a grip..life..etc.
Yeah this place can be tiring, particularly if you are on the 330 at the moment, all those night turns are tough..then again my father in-law is a truck driver who works nights, and he seems to manage reasonably well.
As for half the other feckwits who moan, well most of the ones I've met it seems to be mostly self inflicted.
As an example, I did a JFK recently with a couple of septics, both who were negative in the extreme, all thanks to wanting to commute from the good 'ole' USA and hence were constantly backwards and forwards...and so were constantly knackered.
This place is what you make of it, my wife and kids love it..they head off to the homeland during the summer break..and have a bloody nice life.
I dont give 2 sh1ts about the dumb-ass rules that seem to cause some grief here..simply because I avoid most situations that can put myself or the family into a predicament.....
Life is easy here..the job is easy, just as long as you are prepared to swim with the current..and not get all self righteous and indignant because YOU think YOU know better than the locals:ugh:

[Wizofoz]

to the moderator: why you keep deleting my posts??
.

...And YOU talk about "Social intelligence"....

[Exascot]

Speaking as ‘self loading freight’ Emirates is a great airline to fly with. We fly the ATH-DXB-JNB route with them once or twice a year. I had an opportunity to work in the Middle East 16 years ago. Having operated through there many times I decided that the managerial philosophy was not for me. It says at lot for the professionalism of the crews that there is no obvious dissension in the ranks. Given the mindset of the management and the cultural differences to the West managing any change is going to be a very big uphill struggle. Please try to maintain your exceptional standards over there. One presumes the flight deck door is now locked so the drivers can snooze in peace. :zzz:

[SubsonicMortal]

Falconeasydriver, Loved your post. I think that's the best response yet to this thread. :D

[McGreaser]

Life is easy here..the job is easy, just as long as you are prepared to swim with the current..and not get all self righteous and indignant because YOU think YOU know better than the locals

That really sums it up l reckon !:ok: Very appropriate and well said falconeasydriver.

P.S am one of the happy guys in EK

[donpizmeov]

Falcon driver, I am very glad your short time in the sand has been good to you. But, alas, some of us have had our conditions of service reduced to those same ones you were happy to sign up to.
When we joined, the company paid for all the utilities, just like it said it would in our contract. When we joined we got paid a min of 3.5hrs for any day at work, including reserve, sims, SEP or any ground schools. We were also paid 2.5hrs for every day of leave. We were paid productivity pay when we worked overtime. The school fee allowance paid for a min of 90% of the school fees.
So yes we may be a bit miffed to see life style and earning capacity continually eroded. If only we to had your low expectations, and were more willing to to go with the flow, or as you rightly say, "swim with the current", and smile as the company steals from us.:ugh:In fact most of us now are making Aed 8400 per month less than we were 6 months before you joined. That hurts. And it is upsetting when you see the same company make record profits at the same time as stealing off its employees.
Perhaps if they returned us to our original conditions, and left you with your conditions we all could be happy.:D

The Don

[Schibulsky]

just as long as you are prepared to swim with the current..

Sorry FEdriver, that is exactly NOT part of "the quality of life" I mentioned.
Call me unruly, stubborn or having too much pride...but no f:mad:g
dimwit manager and/or local is going to make me back down because I fear to lose my job!
If that is o.k. for you and it makes you happy...enjoy it but please don't tell others "to get a grip...life...etc." :=

[falconeasydriver]

Falcon driver, I am very glad your short time in the sand has been good to you. But, alas, some of us have had our conditions of service reduced to those same ones you were happy to sign up to.
When we joined, the company paid for all the utilities, just like it said it would in our contract. When we joined we got paid a min of 3.5hrs for any day at work, including reserve, sims, SEP or any ground schools. We were also paid 2.5hrs for every day of leave. We were paid productivity pay when we worked overtime. The school fee allowance paid for a min of 90% of the school fees.
So yes we may be a bit miffed to see life style and earning capacity continually eroded. If only we to had your low expectations, and were more willing to to go with the flow, or as you rightly say, "swim with the current", and smile as the company steals from us.:ugh:In fact most of us now are making Aed 8400 per month less than we were 6 months before you joined. That hurts. And it is upsetting when you see the same company make record profits at the same time as stealing off its employees.
Perhaps if they returned us to our original conditions, and left you with your conditions we all could be happy.:D

Sorry FEdriver, that is exactly NOT part of "the quality of life" I mentioned.
Call me unruly, stubborn or having too much pride...but no fhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gifg
dimwit manager and/or local is going to make me back down because I fear to lose my job!
If that is o.k. for you and it makes you happy...enjoy it but please don't tell others "to get a grip...life...etc." :=

All wonderfully valid and accurate points guys, in fact I'd go so far as to say I sympathize with you...trouble is...have a look at the world around you....
Where on the planet are you going to find T & C's like you enjoyed previously?
You guys had a cozy little expat club/airline that was the envy of those looking from the outside in....
All you have experienced is what most of the rest of us have had to endure over the past 5 years or so flying elsewhere.
My old man was out here 30 years ago, and nothing has changed, so I fail to see how some of the moaners on here seem to think that they somehow have had anymore influence than anyone else.
All I'm interested in is looking after my family..putting grub on the table, and having a life, I'm not interested in bitching about how the good old days were..the company steals off me blah blah blah, get over it..adapt, play smart etc..evolve or die.
Sorry, but get used to the new reality.....or try getting into KLM/Air France...or perhaps Korean might suit you a little better:hmm:

[fatbus]

Things have changed globally and EK knows it. They can do what they want to whom they want and don't care about the employee. The fact is they never have. Yes there have been a very few number of guys that were looked after and make no mistake the EK PR spin machine took max advantage and credit for it.
I'm the first to leave this sh!t hole as soon as I can but for now it is just not happening. Have to look at the hole package and the rest of the industry.
Trust me when I say been here 10 years and want out!!!
There are guys that have left and came back and some that tried and were told NO way, so you make your own bed.
Most US pilots I fly with say that they are not going anywhere at the moment. Bottom of the list at Delta after recalls = a long time RES MD80, not to mention the rest of the furlowed pilots/ mil/ civilian in the states that would be looking at the majors and have more years to serve.
EK is not bad based on whats out there now, most of us have taken a 20% pay cut and have seen nothing come back. Airbus right now bad soon it will be the 777. 380/350 will be doing all the nice stuff and the old dog of the fleet the sh!t.

[TangoUniform]

The old Boy Scout motto, "Be Prepared", is worth remembering here. Always be prepared to have terms and conditions changed for the negative. Be prepared for consequences of an unintentional mistake, ie, be prepared for the firing, the downgrade, the upgrade being delayed or never happening. Be prepared for the inane politics of the company and local paperwork mill. Be prepared for the wife being fed up with husband being away and the wife turning into a single mother.

It's been said many times before. This airline is so close to being one of the best jobs in the industry, but there seems to be some mindset that it just can't or won't happen. Just a few years ago yes....today no.

Just be prepared for one's expectations not being met/fulfilled and be prepared for the unexpected both from our city state and from our company. But above all, be prepared never, ever to embarress the EK brand logo or name in any form.:=

[halas]

Correction Don. We were not paid anything for sim, res, SEP etc. We were credited hours. If you went into productivity time, THEN we got paid accordingly.
Thanks to TCK, along with civi's in the TC and company transport for the instructors on sim duty ++++, that all disappeared.

This place is tolerable if you ignore it.

Without access to the inter-web, many would be in jail now or deported.
As we all know, it gives you access to the outside world and more importantly, home.
Not reading the local papers, listening to local radio or watching any local TV stations brings on a sense of being elsewhere.
Read the news on the internet, radio streaming from home and TV by the same method or anything OSN throws that is from home is better at isolating you from what the realties are of being here.

This may (will) sound lame to some, but l don't give a flying :mad:! As are my feelings towards Dubai.

halas

[donpizmeov]

Don't know when you joined Halas but prior to 2003 we were paid 3.5hrs for reserve sims etc. It all came to an end when an engineer taking charge did not like pilots having time off, even though they had flown 900hrs in 365 or 100hrs in 28 day, so ordered min days off with other days being rostered as AD. Leading to huge overpay of overtime. This happened at the same time FOs were promised that DECs would not delay upgrades.
To true Falcon driver. Don't let our factually accurate posts get in the way of your "I feel so great to fly a widebody" posts. Long may your enjoyment last. But lets just hope that the new joiners in the future do not hold onto to lower standard of required employment, because I am sure neither you nor I could afford it.

The Don

Ps. Sorry Halas. You were correct. We were not burdened with flight pay then. We were on basic salary only (which would optimise bonus, pension etc) so were only credited the time into productivity. Sorry about that, I think it may be old age.
Don't worry about the flying club Falcon driver. I have chatted to ex bizjet pilots that could not make it into easyjet that are 777 drivers here now. The EK pilot group is the only group in EK and DANATA that has taken pay cuts (two big ones and one small one since I have been here). Our managers are paid more now than in 2008, we will be years away from breaking even. You will do so earlier than the FO that joined in May 2008 as you are on the same basic as him, as will be the FO joining in March 2011. Feeding your family is very noble, but defending the race to the bottom term and condition wise is not so. Can you think of any other profession that would justify a reduction of terms and conditions as you have offered? Some complain about pay to fly, is that any different to a new joiner complaining that those in the company complain about their reduced conditions that are offered now, and that a new joiner thinks is all dandy? Help me out here, when will conditions be lowered enough (according to your own well balanced criteria of course) for the rest of us to be justifiably unhappy?

[falconeasydriver]

Don't let our factually accurate posts get in the way of your "I feel so great to fly a widebody" posts. Long may your enjoyment last. But lets just hope that the new joiners in the future do not hold onto to lower standard of required employment, because I am sure neither you nor I could afford it.

Don't worry Don I won't, fortunately I got over the joy of flying a widebody many moons previous:ok:, I even managed to fumble my way into the left seat of the thing.

Don FWIW, I ACTUALLY agree with substantially all you've got to say..the difference is I'm not deluding myself into thinking that this place will ever change for the better.
I could tomorrow head back off to parts unknown and more than likely pick up a 550 or Falcon job, and probably earn a fair bit more than what I earn now. The difference is, EK offers a stable job, with very little in the way of disruption etc etc, and I'm happy to be home a heck of a lot more now, than I've ever been (this year was the first time in 5 years I've been around at Christmas)
Don, I hear what you are saying, I hear what others have to say....but I've also seen with my own two eyes guys in positions of higher seniority say plenty of things..and then when push comes to shove..they stay on an "A" scale..while others head off on a "B" scale.
I've seen nothing in my time at EK to suggest otherwise..everyone is out for themselves because that is the company/expat culture.
The only way this place will change is when demand exceeds supply, you can argue to your blue in the face about all the other variables...but that Don is the simple arithmetic, is it right? well that all depends on your perspective...to me, it just is what it is.

Lastly
Don't worry about the flying club Falcon driver. I have chatted to ex bizjet pilots that could not make it into easyjet that are 777 drivers here now.

I hope that wasn't a slight on either Bizjet or Easyjet drivers, as it would be a shame to relegate a perfectly sensible discussion into a measuring contest.

[donpizmeov]

Falcon driver, Good on you for stating whats its like here. That is the information that people reading these forums need to hear as it helps with the decision making on whether or not this is the place for them or not.
The problem the guys I fly with lately have is they are amazed when conditions change at the drop of a hat, as if its all happening for the first time.
To arm this site with factual information, rather than information about beaches being nice, or the sun shining a lot, helps them and their families see what they are getting into before they arrive.
I am sorry if you thought I was taking a shot at Biz or easyjet pilots. From the training department and the recruiting department it would seem that easyjet pilots are quite well regarded.What I tried to convey, unsuccessfully, was, that in the past we were taking ex BA, Dragonair, QF, Air Canada etc guys, now we are taking fellas who have not made it to a low cost airline. That says quite a bit about how our salary package has changed.

The Don

[moggiee]

Everything changes, though, and individual airlines become more or less apepaling over time. I have a relative who's involved in recruiting at BA and he said that it can be difficult to prise people away from the likes of easyJet because the BA Ts&Cs are not that attractive anymore (especially when coupled with a LOOOOOOOONG wait for command). on the plus side, they are actually recruiting pilots at the moment and were massively over subscribed.

However, I suspect that many of the people complaining about EK and EY could well do with pausing to compare their position with those back in their home countries where airlines have been shedding pilot jobs (or at least not expanding) for a while. Yes there's a lot of crap to put up with out here but it could be worse - it could be Saudi Arabia where your wife and children will have a REALLY crappy lifestyle.

[Marooned]

unhelpful at best but occasionally there have been some good posts

The good posts are what you want to hear perhaps and the bad the things you don't? You will not be the first to do this and as the recruitment spin keeps polishing the proverbial, you will not be the last. I've been there, done that and regretted it and when I moved things were a hell of a lot better than they are now. Remember that some have left an EK LHS to fly for EZY, others returned to EZY from whence they came.

Remember also that whilst I fully accept that I am in the FUEK group on this forum I am a line pilot, a very tired and pi**ed off one. However there is an element of the pro-group masquerading as pilots whose are directed by EK to counter the bad press...

I really hope you have made the right decision. I did not. It would be interesting to see how you feel in a year or so. If you're leaving a command I think you are making a bad mistake, if not you can be sure it will be an interesting ride... and EK are good at taking people for a ride.

[GoreTex]

easy, you are so cute,
check some of the older posts, there are hundreds like you that didnt want to hear and believe the truth.
good luck

ps: hope you'll get some helpful posts that say what you want to hear :ugh:

[ekairbus]

Sig,
In short my advice to you is stay in the US.
Dubai and EK still has alot to offer but it is not enough to uproot you and your family to move to the other side of the planet.

I can offer this advice as an American flying for EK.

[sheikmyarse]

Easy...you will crack worry not! And you will regret..big time!!!

[falconeasydriver]

Easy...you will crack worry not! And you will regret..big time!!!

See thats the thing Sheiky, I just love the self righteous holier than thou..I know best...attitude that you exude...
Without ever really having a clue to my background, motivation, professional integrity, and god forbid....my humanity:ugh:
But never mind..you keep up your tirades....they are vaguely amusing, in fact to be honest, I laugh more at your posts these days than I do when I read the editorial of the good news..errr gulf lies..errr...Gulf News :ok:

As for cracking, well for your info sunshine...that happened when I hit puberty

[sheikmyarse]

Keep laughing....

[h3dxb]

Don't bite the hand that feeds you :=

[tbraam]

I have worked for EK as cabin crew for 4 years (1998-2002, the good old days..;-), and have lived in DXB for 13 years. Just came back to Europe few months back and I'm happy I did. Dubai is a great place to live if you like luxury, sunshine and going out to numerous clubs, bars and restaurants. I used to enjoy it to the max, but now that I'm a bit older (39?!) other things more important in life to me.

In DXB you do find a more protected childhood for children (not much drugs etc to be found), but they're bored to bits at times as there is not much to do for them. They can't even go out for a beer until they're 21 years old.

I look back at a great learning experience, and yes it's a tough one at times, getting things done is not as easy as in the west, but I wouldn't want to have missed it! On the other hand you can buy and drive a great car for about 20% of what I pay now!

And why not try it for a few years. It's a great city if you're able to travel out of the country on a regular basis. Go for it I would say.

[boocs]

EK can't be that bad.... a few guys have left Dragon recently for greener, (or is that sandier) pastures....

b.

[Murrenfan]

Easy,

Don't show up for your EK training with this attitude. On such an OIC culture, your chances of survival are slim.

Mfan

[buckdanny]

Hi everyone,

I am invited to the 3 day interview process in Dubai and looking for info. I found this thread, and found some very good information in it.

I can't however find any info about what it's like at EK for the spouses. I got married 6 months ago, and my wife has an excellent job here in the US (she's a microbiologist). Can women easily find specialized work in Dubai?

For me career (and experience) wise the 3 years at EK would be phenomenal, however I have to take into account our life as a couple. If she's going to leave a great career to be bored at home while I'm at work, I would rather stay in the US.

Any inputs on what it's like for your spouses would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[ManaAdaSystem]

my wife has an excellent job here in the US (she's a microbiologist). Can women easily find specialized work in Dubai?


I'm no expert, but generally the Middle Eastern countries welcome specialists with open arms. Two areas where there seem to be a general lack of personnel are medicine and schools (teachers). She should use whatever channels she has to check out different options, maybe a trip to DXB to knock on some doors before you decide to move? It will give you both a chance to check out DXB as well.

[Murrenfan]

Easy,

Your attitude is not offensive to me. That was just an advice for your training with EK. You being banned says it all.

Good luck with your choice

Mfan

[troff]

This thread is becoming a flamer.

[km5]

I like Dubai! The sun is shining, the cars are cheep and the flying is good. Its a lot of cash compared to my last job and on the whole the cost of living is not really that high when you consider the kind of luxury you can live in here.:ok:

[White Knight]

naturally, if you are happy or unhappy, you will be more likely topost on this site to either incourage or discourage others from joining. so consider the fact that many pilots who were unhappy about EK, have left and no longer post here. So why is there an ever increasiung amount of negative posts about the lifestyle here?

Well, of the 2550 odd pilots at EK I only see the same few faces here SI...

But then again I must be A) Office type or B) Justifying my move here (Alconguin Crusader)...

FYI neither - A) an office just doesn't 'fly' that well with me if you'll pardon the pun and B) how I run my life is up to me - I'll respect your POV AC but you are being a bit of a **** (c something t) by trying to tell ME how to live MY life:hmm::hmm:

You all who moan show us somewhere currently BETTER:D Could it be LCC in Europe running 4 sectors of slot-delays and de-icing? Or could it be a US 'major' and sit a reserve line on a DC9 for 5 years? (that would be the pits!!!!)

Indeed, things here could be better. We have been screwed totally with the overtime as Don says:mad: Leave issues, days off in a row, DEWA (although I haven't yet talked to anyone who's paid towards a big bill) - but you have to measure this against what you'll find elsewhere. And I respectfully submit that that will be;

SAME SAME BUT DIFFERENT - but from the bottom of a new seniority list:D

[40&80]

Basically over the years I observed only the money numbers change in Gulf based Airlines.
The problems remain the same... there is no intention or inclination or pressure on or for management to even attempt to fix any problem staff related.
If you are a bachelor with nobody expecting a slice of your paycheck back home you can save a serious wad of money over the years... that is if you decide to live as cheaply as possible and try hard to invest your excess cash each month.
Married, plus wife not working...plus a few kids...divorce...new wife...kiss your sorry tail goodbye...you will then have to fly till you drop...and thus compromised be forced keep your mouth shut...or worse still... blow your brains out and join the management team!

[McGreaser]

Generally NOBODY is allowed to be happy (if you go by what you read on Pprune) in EK unless they are

1. locals
2. Africans
3. Asians
4. South Americans

The "others" are "supposed" to be unhappy and grumpy because they come from better countries. So no matter how much the "others" try to say how happy they are, the "Pprune verdict" is they're are crazy, desperate, or it's a matter of time before they are unhappy. The little time l have flown in EK, the guys l have flown with guys/girls who are not from number 2,3 or 4 have been happy. Family is happy, wife is happy.....well, husband becomes happy by default. I think it's more to do with swim with the current not coz you are dead, but coz they have adapted and made the best of it.

Am happy here simply because am making the best of my surroundings. I know my limits in U.A.E and in EK. Never try to go beyond the limits because there's always sumbody to slap you into line usually with dire conseqencies. Dubai has it's ups and downs but so does every other place in the world.

To anybody who wants to take the plunge and head over to the sandpit......come with an open mind, adapt, keep your head down, don't think you know better than the locals or the guys who have been here for many years, humble yourself and "just smile and wave..." ! And you will be fine.

That doesn't mean bend over and pick up the soap when you in the sandpit....just speak softly and carry and a big stick:p

[moggiee]

Just out of interest (as a non-EK person) what's the starting pay for an EK FO?

[sheikmyarse]

"To anybody who wants to take the plunge and head over to the sandpit......come with an open mind, adapt, keep your head down, don't think you know better than the locals or the guys who have been here for many years, humble yourself and "just smile and wave..." ! And you will be fine".

I find it quite amusing. Where is your dignity mate? Keep your head down and keep smiling and waiving?? At times I cannot believe what I read.
You are supposed to have in your hands the life of hundreds of people?
Ah no..sorry in EK you are remotely controlled from the ground... and I see why.

[IXNAT]

Sheik, I thought the same when I read that thread. I hope he meant, it is usless to fight what you can't change. LR3....right on the money. What many Americans fail to realise, is many with a JAR license can find a DEC position at the likes of Easy, Ryan, Air Berlin etc., so it makes it easier to come here and then return in a few years. But in the US, you will start again at the bottom if things don't work here. Had a mate came here as a DEC about 5 years ago from Air Berlin. After 3 years, returned to Air Berlin as a Captain. Try that if you're from the US. Take heed. So when you have "insurance" of returning to a left seat, it makes it easier to put up with a full bucket here. Additionally, a lot easier to run back and forth to Europe when it's only 5-7 hours of flight compared with 13-16 hours to either the US or Oz.

[nolimitholdem]

It's not hard for any country to seem more advanced than a place that says it's ok to beat your wife as long as you don't leave a mark. To randomly name one of about, oh, a billion examples of the hate and barbarism that typify the region.

And how come the umm...like, two, people that constantly defend the place seem to be from the same country...? No wonder the UAE seems good...:zzz:

What's The Point Of Australia? (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1342343/If-win-Test-match--just-point-Australia.html#ixzz19bOVYrRD)

[White Knight]

Ha Nolimitholdem - I certainly don't feel sorry for a country that tries to constantly turn it's back on it's 'MOTHER'-country... As you know, all of the republican referendums have failed :p:p

All this argument (cricket speaking) about colonials in the England team makes me wet my little panties with laughter:{ Old Andy Symonds - the hero of Orstralia what was born in ENGLAND:} Excuse me whilst I choke on my morning porridge:D:D:D:D And the Aussies are calling for Usman to join the batting order hahahaha - this is Usman from Pakistan!!!!!

You are a bunch of bad losers, no grace, no tact - just d1cks who also do stupid and long-winded pointless briefings:E

Down and out with you Pr1cky Runting:ok::ok::ok:

Oh heck - what was this thread about:O:O

[Sir Donald]

Sorry to intrude on your party Nolim and supercilious Whitekinght, but
can you enlighten us on how many kids die in the UK thanks to their very modern ways(home office data)

The Aussies might have lost the ashes but haven't lost their dignity and do speak up regardless of the circumstances. Take heed from Joe from J*star.

If only pommy pilots could find the same courage instead of volunteering to be cabin crew in the name of bonuses, maybe our trade would be in a better shape today!

Does anyone like EK?The pomms clearly do.

[ManaAdaSystem]

Me think they banned the wrong person! Or maybe PPRUNE ME is ME in miniature?

Somebody knows somebody and lets teach this rookie a lesson? Like the little supermen occupying different offices, CP's, FC's, and suddenly they can't stop using all that power. After all, there is nobody there to stop them.

Who is moderating the moderators?

[lead zeppelin]

Higgins LOVES the Rattlesnake

[GoreTex]

A380
you think their only problem is bad teeth
YouTube - Swedish vs. British Nightclubs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8rrFP2RMmo)

[CAVnotOK]

Hahaha, that's some funny sh*t!

I think the argument is over, very clear who the Losers are.

Happy New Year!
Cav.

[Maurice Chavez]

My life for you, Sheik Mo, my life for you!!!!

[Oblaaspop]

A380, you make very valid points.... immigration, sh1t weather, chavs et al. We are the FIRST to admit the (once) Great Britain has gone well and truly down the sh1tter!

These are but a few of the MANY reasons us 'poms' evacuated the UK in the first place, and moved to sunnier/happier climbs.

You will find that most Brits (not all), are more than happy with their decision to leave the UK and come over here which is precisely the reason why you WONT find many of us bitching and moaning, because we had the balls to make the change.

Now the Aussies on the other hand....... Good god, where do I begin? Before I arrived at EK, my impression of you guys was; relaxed, beer drinking, barbie throwing, fun loving, chilled out 'surfer dude' types.... Now I'm here to tell you how VERY misguided I was. I realise I was wrong on all counts!

Not only do you guys need a checklist and SOP for wiping your own ring piece, but you have the audacity, and the bare faced cheek to call us 'whingers' when you boys would win Olympic Gold in moaning should it ever be turned into a sport! (just ask our multi national crew their opinion, and they will confirm my observations).

Frankly, I'm fed up with hearing how good everything is in 'Aus mate', you apparently have better weather (really? A little moist in Queensland this week!!), better food, better roads, better Airlines, better women, better doctors/dentists, better Cricket/Rugby teams (yeah right)....etc etc. Well if its that bloody good, why did you leave in the first place?? If the UK was 10% as good as you say Australia is, then I'd be back there in a heart beat. So if it really is as good as all that, then quite simply why don't you bugger off back to whence you came, and take all the many thousands of smelly students working in bars in London with you!!

WK, I believe Nolimit is a Canuk, so feel free to substitute the word Aussie in the above to Canadian as all the same applies (apart from the weather of course:E).

Now, I realise you cannot tar everyone with the same brush, and indeed I do know (a very) few good blokes from each of the afore mentioned places, so I apologise to the good guys, the others though:yuk:

BTW, easybusdriver1, I have read all of your posts and for what its worth, I cannot see any reason for your ban.... you have every right to be excited. I am assuming you are mid to late 20's and you are coming to fly here for a big pay rise and improvement in standard of living and will likely have your wide body command by the time you are mid 30's. Good luck to you mate, don't let the misery mongers get you down........ It's not all a bed of roses, but having been where you are, I can tell you from first hand experience (unlike most on here) that you are doing the right thing:ok:

Happy New Year to you and yours folks (for those who know the meaning of the word Happy!):D

[Maurice Chavez]

:E My life for you, Sheik Mo, my life for you!!!! :E

[GoreTex]

"better food, better roads, better Airlines, better women, better doctors/dentists, better Cricket/Rugby teams"
it's all true, unfortunately that the aussies cant wipe their ring without a checklist is true too, if you give an aussie a uniform he becomes anal and that even includes the postman, but besides that I love oz.

@easy
if you come from the english subcontinent than dubai might be good for you, if you come from the civilized world dont move here

[nolimitholdem]

Oblaaspop,

Since you're feeling frisky about airing the laundry, here's the thing that rings false about your little rant.

You like to fancy yourself as having "balls" in leaving the UK because it has, as you eloquently put it, gone "down the ****ter".

When the reality is, you DIDN'T have the ability or balls to actually stand and fight to "make the changes" to the things you bemoan in your home country. So like over 100,000 others stampeded out to feed, and feed off of, a developing, oppressive regime. Hardly the image of courage. Hopping on a flight for eight hours to take some tax-free money. But don't worry, that government back in the "****ter" is still looking out for you even as you tell yourself how happy you are!

Britain Forms Plan for Gulf Evacuation (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/dubai/8228244/Britain-forms-plan-for-Gulf-evacuation-in-event-of-war-with-Iran.html)

I think you'll find most Canadians came to Dubai out of economic necessity due to a small and unstable aviation sector at home. Not because they felt the entire country was a write-off. We don't see ourselves as grandiose pioneers, we're just trying to make a living out of necessity, in frankly, a pretty awful place, now matter how you whitewash it. (It's "Canuck", by the way, with a "c"...and people say the Yanks are ignorant!) You won't find Canadians bragging about their country, because the truth is, we don't want more people to know the secret and trying to immigrate, otherwise we'd become just like the UK...lol (Not that it isn't happening anyway...)

Happy New Year to all my PPrune buddies who observe the "Gregorian Calendar" as those ass-licking managers on the portal call it!

:cool:

[donpizmeov]

Seems like a lot of posts from those with big watches and small minds here lately. Anyone got a key to lock this thread?

The Don

[Modhesh]

Aussies right, unlike their pomy cousins that decided to take it up the backside and volunteer to be cabin crew at BA, they have stood up and have had their say on numerous occasions.

ABC1 you clearly have no understanding of the cabin crew strike and goings on at BA. If you did you wouldn't make a statement like this.

As for Joe... He is a legend and I have nothing but the highest regard for him and hope you have contributed to his legal fund as I have.

Now, can we move on please.

[cadidalhopper]

Lock the most popular thread of late on PPRuNe?? Seems your watch is a little large for your head.

THE CADIDALHOPPER.... dork

[Wizofoz]

When the reality is, you DIDN'T have the ability or balls to actually stand and fight to "make the changes" to the things you bemoan in your home country. So like over 100,000 others stampeded out to feed, and feed off of, a developing, oppressive regime. Hardly the image of courage. Hopping on a flight for eight hours to take some tax-free money.

Err....

Where is it you live and work again NLH? And what are the excuses you trot out when asked why you express sentiments like this, but choose to stay??

[Oblaaspop]

Indeed Nolimit you are correct, I didn't have the balls, time or inclination to stand up and be counted back home, because (as you well know with your useless Government), it really makes c0ck all difference who you vote for or lobby, because as a law abiding, middle class, high tax bracket paying citizen, you get treated like sh1t and get put behind Albanian Asylum seekers on your GP's waiting list!

As a (politically incorrect) British comedian once said "I'd rather be a foreigner in someone elses country than my own, so I moved to Dubai"...... thanks Jim Davidson!

So basically, instead of sitting around moaning about how cr@p everything is and woe is me, I did the sensible thing and moved my family here for a better life. And do you know what, 7 years on we're truly glad we did....... It's worked out for us at least. Sorry if that little nugget doesn't sit well with the harbingers of doom that frequent this forum, but that's the way it is from my standpoint (and no I'm not 'management', just a regular line shag!).

Back then to my original point, you clearly admit that the Aviation industry is f@cked in Canada and you came here to be better off in a better job....... So my question remains: WHAT THE F@CK IS ALL THE MOANING ABOUT?????

BTW Sorry for missing out the 'C' in Canuck. I was saving the C for U Next Tuesday :E

[nolimitholdem]

Nope, no excuses or apologies laddies! I regret believing the lies told and fully take responsibility for the wrong decisions I've made in life. But as it turns out, "better" job is a loaded term...EK was just the first one to offer employ, it was never a goal to escape the "misery" of life in my home country! lol

But my point was that paying the bills isn't some noble endeavour as Oblaspoop tries to paint it, it's just simple pragmatism. Depends on your definition of better I suppose. But by his definition, I guess I'm sensible and brave. Who knew. I thought I was just grabbing some cash and trying to bag as many cabin crew as I could, biding my time till I could put Dubai in the rearview mirror forever. Good thing I have these folk to set me straight!

Hey Wiz, when I choose to leave, THEN am I allowed to express that I think the place is ****? Just wondering. Seems like right now is the best time to give an informed perspective.

To answer the original poster's question, the title of the thread.....


No.

[White Knight]

You won't find Canadians bragging about their country

Ha - I can understand why too:}:} Freezing sh1th0le............. Full of jinglies:D:D. Just like my country:cool::cool:

But then again; my forefathers ran an Empire:E:E:E

PS - just stirring for fun:ok:

[ManaAdaSystem]

And a happy New Year to you all!

[cerbus]

When are you not allowed to express the truth? We all know the truth is suppressed in Dubai and the only news to come out of the sand is good news.
Some of us bought the lies and moved to Dubai. Most are at the very least reassessing their options and looking elswhere. That does not mean they want to leave or even going to leave but on a 3 day interview in IST I counted 17 EK pilots. That does not mean all 17 Ek pilots are going to leave EK just looking at their options.
Keep recovering and believing their lies.

[Wizofoz]

Hey Wiz, when I choose to leave, THEN am I allowed to express that I think the place is ****? Just wondering. Seems like right now is the best time to give an informed perspective.



Offer opinion about EK or Dubai? Go right ahead-

The problem is you seem to take it as a personal affront if anyone dis-agrees with you or points out factual errors in what you right.

But make personal attacks on people? What you wrote to Ob was just, plain, hysterical nonsense. "Have to balls to fight for change", when he did EXACTLY the same thing you did- leave to come to what he hoped was a better situation. The difference, obviously, being that he was able to asses things and make a decision that worked for him, you weren't.

How much "Fighting for change"dd you do prior to "Flying 8 hours (well, 14) for a tax-free salary"?

And then, of course, when out of proper arguments, you have to start denigrating peoples Nationality. Irrelevant and insulting.

Good luck with your "Bagging Cabin Crew"- I see your respect for Women is on par with your respect for fellow pilots who have the audacity to not be as miserable as you....

[clear to land]

Well said Wiz! :) I have lived in better places, I have lived in worse places. I will leave when I am in a position to do so as there is, after all, no place like home. But wherever you are is whatever you choose to make it. Remember the bucket analagy, and that we are all volunteers (mercenarys) here.

[moggiee]

Is that so?So the pilots didn't volunteer, it was forced upon them and they did what......spoke up like an Aussie or took in with some tea?
I have connections at BA and can assure you that the pilots were not forced to "volunteer" - some did work as cabin crew and they did so because they didn't want to see the idiot cabin crew, led by their backward looking union, destroy the company they love.

My "connections" continued to work as pilots.

[Oblaaspop]

Look guys, this is all getting a bit silly!

In answer to the original posters question, some of us do like it here and are happy despite the fact we are working our arses off and the company is on a 'take' cycle rather like a one armed bandit in Vegas! At some point it will HAVE to start giving back or guys will simply move on to one that is on a 'give' cycle. Supply and demand chaps!

Like many, I didn't come here to join EK, I came here to get out of my home country and ludicrous taxation, I did a hell of a lot of research, came with my eyes wide open and CRUCIALLY had a LONG TERM plan to stay. If you are coming here just to 'dip your toe' for a couple of years, then I hate to say it but you will absolutely hate it and you will look for every single reason to leave and the weak willed will find many. If however you put 110% effort into making this your home and your new life, then there are many positives.

On the other hand there are several guys who don't like it here, some for good reason eg. F/O from RJ's who joined over 2 years ago and who have been stuffed with the change in upgrade policy for instance, and then there are some who probably wouldn't be happy wherever they were and vent their spleen on a public forum with the veil of providing a 'public service' to prospective new joiners. The problem I have with the latter is that VERY RARELY do they actually come up with hard facts, evidence or reasons for their discontent, rather they just continually recycle the same old posts stating how cr@p everything is here (Check out Sheikmyarse's posts as a case-in-point).

There are several problems and issues at EK that guys do need to be made aware of eg. Fatigue is a major issue, screwing around with the overtime thresholds, upgrade policy and stable projectable career progression, lack of 3% yearly increment for past 2 years, the spectre of being charged a proportion of DEWA charges, lack of a union etc etc.

These are all issues that compound miserable ones beliefs that everything is sh1t here and the company is out to get you.

To ask if anyone is happy at EK on Pprune is a bit of a silly question really because as you can see, there are probably 10 (maximum 20) people who post regularly here which is less than 1% of the EK pilot workforce..... Hardly representative now is it????:ugh:

Be prepared now for several of these miseries to state as fact that EVERYONE they fly with hates it here and wants to get out ASAP. I on the other hand disagree, the VAST majority of guys I fly with (although knackered) actually like it here.

Now, who are you gonna believe?

[Wizofoz]

Best.Post.Ever.

[sheikmyarse]

If I'll come out with hard facts on the consequences that I endured for leaving a stable job home to join Ek you will understand why I'm so bitter. May be one day I will and you'll be amazed, trust me.
I had the privilege of touching with my hands the real nature of this organization.
Arrogant, mercyless, unsensitive, unaccountable.
Beware of what you say, write, keep you opinions for your self, don't trust anybody, humble and waive and you'll be fine?
No thanks.
I'm not just a labourer with a better pay and a different uniform.
I tried very hard to make of Dubai my house but the lack of basic rights and the amount of nonsense just makes it impossible for individuals with little of self respect and with no price tag hanging from their neck.
A the end what we live for?

[captainsmiffy]

Quote 'Good luck with your "Bagging Cabin Crew"- I see your respect for Women is on par with your respect for fellow pilots who have the audacity to not be as miserable as you....' Unquote

You assume then, that he does mean women?! He never actually said so. You never know in these enlightened times.....

[Oblaaspop]

Fair enough Sheiky, please prove me wrong and tell us all why you feel you were wronged for no justifiable reason by the company and then perhaps we will understand your bitterness..... until such a point though, sadly it just sounds like a baseless rant which doesn't help man nor beast!

If you no longer work here (which I suspect), then what have you got to lose?:ok:

[EK2EYengineer]

I had the privilege of touching with my hands the real nature of this organization.
Arrogant, mercyless, unsensitive, unaccountable.
Beware of what you say, write, keep you opinions for your self, don't trust anybody, humble and waive and you'll be fine?

Sheiky is 200% correct and i agree with every single word of his post this is the culture of this company they only want slaves and as he says "If I'll come out with hard facts on the consequences that I endured for leaving a stable job home to join Ek you will understand why I'm so bitter." i went thru the same sh**.

[moggiee]

abc1 - pompous? Clearly you'd know! Much easier for you to chuck insults around than to deal with facts. Still, you enjoy telling everyone how it "really" is and those who have access to facts will continue to ignore you.

Willie isn't the most popular man in the world but he is generally accepted as being the necessary medicine (well, recognised as such by everyone apart from the CC and Unite).

[BYMONEK]

abc1

Why do you insist on embarrassing yourself on a public forum, discussing a subject you know very little about? Why not spend a day or so reading all the arguments that are submitted on the BA CC forum. A forum which discusses in great depth the very different views held between pilots and cabin crew and explains in some very well written posts why it resulted in such action and why many opposed it. You may also find it surprising to see that the opinions amongst the cabin crew themselves are somewhat divided. It didn't need the pilots to 'conquer and divide'.

Before you fire off another personal insult to disguise your ignorance, please allow me to justify my reply. I have several immediate family members employed in BA so I guess I can speak from direct experience of this whole sorry affair. One has been a pilot there for well over 20 years and the other is cabin crew with 15 years of seniority. Both disagreed with strike action. Both realised that a change in T&C's were needed if the airline was to face challenges that were not present 10 years ago. The only people who didn't see this was UNITE, a self serving body of highly paid, left wing individuals who's main goal was to obtain maximum publicity and ensure that their big salaries would continue well into retirement.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against unions, far from it. I am also not opposed to those that have the balls to stand up for what is right. However, what I am opposed to are those unions that seek to destroy tens of thousands of livelihoods simply by being bloody minded. BALPA realised many years ago that change was neccessary. They adapted and engaged in meaningful dialogue with senior airline management. They accepted a compromise knowing full well that if the airline wasn't competitive, it would not survive. The pilots are still well paid but work under more flexible and realistic terms. UNITE, however, was and still is, an intransigent organisation that has brainwashed those either too ignorant or too greedy to see otherwise. The pay structure for the cabin crew was unrealistic and outdated. They actually had better working practices than the pilots in some cases. Perhaps if you saw the allowances some of the crew got, your opinion might change. Longhaul crew were even paid a 'hardship allowance' on certain flights due to the demanding customer profile and, therefore, supposed higher workload. I'm sorry, is that not their job? I don't think the pilots got paid extra for landing in a strong crosswind!

So, let me ask you this. If you were a Captain, with over twenty years experience, a family of four to feed, clothe and educate, a mortgage to pay and a professional job that you still enjoyed and worked bloody hard to get, would you honestly sit back and watch it disappear along with your pension? Would you seriously not offer your assistance simply because you have 'principles'?

Well, 'good on ya mate' for those principles. They will mean nothing when the airline is finished and you join your fellow cabin crew colleagues down the job centre. I'm sure they would reward your generosity by offering you the first job that became available. My only fear is how low a salary your priciples may be prepared to accept.

[harry the cod]

abc1

Keep away from the Fosters mate, your responses are becoming even less lucid then previous......if that's possible.

Anyway, why not take BYMONEK's advice and spend an hour or two on the appropriate forum. Would just love to see how long you last over there. :E

Now, where were we.............ah yes, Emirates...........

Harry

[moggiee]

You sound like a chap that is outspoken on an open forum yet even if the circumstances were different in the UAE..re industrial action and unions, you would be on the sidelines egging others on whilst others take the fall....in Australia those are called scabs! At a UK orange outfit the balpa subscription was at 20% at one stage but the likes of you that wouldn't contribute a meager £30 month and yet expected miracles from the rest that did in the name of solidarity.(Hypocrites unfortunately tend to do that)

Oh dear - you really don't know me, do you? If you did you would know that I have a reputation for being the sort of person who tackles management face-to-face rather than hiding behind a trade union. I also have a reputation for being the sort of person who takes responsibility for his own actions, too.

We call them scabs in the UK too - although it is equally fair to call them "employees who wish to exercise their right to work". Try doing a Google search for Tony Woodley and watching him on YouTube. Going by your choice of the word "scab" you sound like the sort of person who'd appreciate his 1970s style Marxism (although he does taint it slightly by being a rather well paid Red).

BYMONEK has summarised the issues at BA rather well - try taking his advice and doing some research as it may help you to keep that egg off your face.

I won't presume to have the arrogance to do a full character assessment based upon a couple of posts here (unlike yourself, of course) but it does seem that you are a rather bitter individual at present. Perhaps you dislike working at EK (assuming that you work there) and should make greater efforts to find a job elsewhere or perhaps you're just not enjoying the cricket as much as I am!

Maybe the North Koreans need some pilots - you could then be employed in a glorious workers' paradise AND avoid Aussie sporting ineptitude in one easy move! :)

[moggiee]

What like sending abuse via private messages mate?
I keep it to the forum just like a true gentleman.

You keep it all in your head because, having double checked my PM "sent messages" list, I don't appear to have ever sent you a PM - abusive or otherwise.

Best you shut up now and stop making an arse of yourself. You do appear to be unable to tell which posts were made by me and which by other users. Clue: look at the BIG username on the left hand side!

[Mister Geezer]

For those that bemoan EK, they need to ask themselves if it is EK or the expat lifestyle and perhaps Dubai itself that they dislike? Sadly the latter is something that either clicks or doesn't after you move which is often too late! As for the company, I find it amazing that people complain about the night flights, no union representation and busy rosters etc. Those doing their homework should be well versed on the cons when joining any company.

I have seen right before my very eyes, examples of some former collegues moving to the Middle East after doing a woeful amounts of research and preparation and they suddenly can't wait to leave. :ugh:

[fatbus]

MG you make a very good point, all to many families come here and don't do very well and that seems to make it's way into the flt deck

[Mister Geezer]

Issues which can be as significant as marital problems due to living abroad, homesickness and unsettled kids etc are extremely difficult to not bring to work with you. It is very easy for such issues as well as many others, to cloud ones outlook in general.

I am sure there will be some individuals who dislike EK as a company, yet perhaps enjoy Dubai as a place to live or at worst don't mind it. However I suspect that they are perhaps in the minority of those who perhaps view the glass as half empty.

Negativity breeds negativity but it spreads life wildfire in amongst a group of expats abroad.

[nolimitholdem]

hmmm it's all very well and good to pontificate about "doing your homework", "knowing the pros and cons before joining", etc etc blah blah blah.

Except, that theory falls down when confronted with the reality that the company you joined is not the company it is today, or will be next month or year.

What's that saying (commonly used as a disclaimer in advertisements for get-rich-quick schemes - how apropros). "Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results."

I think most guys here would be more than happy if the job just had some semblance of the conditions they joined with. Hell, they'd probably be THRILLED just to get back the productivity that is literally being stolen from our pockets.

I always like to tell new joiners, your very best day of work for Emirates is the first one. After that it's only a race downhill, backwards.

Speaking to negativity's influence on things, they say the biggest predictor of happiness is the size of the gap between one's expectations and reality. Well I for one have lowered mine as fast as I can, every single day since joining. I just can't keep up with the speed of Emirates' ability to lower the bar! :p

[BYMONEK]

Nolimitholdem

Quote, "I always like to tell new joiners your very best day of work for Emirates is the first one"

Great, there's nothing like creating a positive first impression.......and that's nothing like it! What a sad thing to tell your new fellow colleagues. You must be a ball of fun to fly with.

Before you 'pontificate' about how things have gone downhill to them, have you ever thought to ask why they came to Emirates and, perhaps more importantly, why they decided to leave their last job? Deteriating T&C's are not unique to Emirates, its a Worldwide problem.

I agree with you that the changing of productivity limits was shameful. It was a blatant way to increase productivity without a commensurate increase in costs and as a group, the pilot body made a significant impact on last years profit. Yealds had only marginally increased but productivity increases were huge. We are (generally) an intelligent bunch of guys and girls so we don't like being lied to or treated as idiots. We know the reasons for the change in productivity threshold was to reduce costs during a very uncertain and challenging time. They should have been honest and, now that we're out of it, reward our increased workload and contribution by reducing the threshold and re instating incremental pay.

Like it or lump it, we have to live with it. If the productivity issue pisses you off, just imagine how thousands of US pilots must feel knowing their pensions are worth absolutely nothing. And that's with a union!

[ekpilot]

BYMONEK

Well a fact is a fact. It is time to tell it as it is, period. I'm sure all these US pilots you are talking about tell it as it is. They must say it S***s in the USA. And when a new guy shows up I would not be surprised if they would say... "it's not so bad here, you could be working for EK, getting a pay cut while the company makes billions of $$$, and all of what you have heard about EK" When you talk about the facts around here some of the always happy to be happy team will come back with the "you are negative" or even better the "if you are not happy you can leave" I'm stuck here for a few more years then bye bye! I would never come to EK in 2011 unless i'm desperate.

Keep Discovering:ok:

[sheikmyarse]

"Human Rights Watch last year (2010) found domestic workers were abused and exploitation by construction companies across the country was “severe”.

What do you expect?

[harry the cod]

Sheiky

This is a forum to discuss pilot issues, not 700dhs a month labourers. This topic is about Emirates and has bugger all to do with the construction industry so let them fight their own battles.

Harry

[BYMONEK]

ekpilot

When you do decide to leave us, I wonder which month you'll choose to leave? 1st of June maybe?

Hope we're still making lots of profit for your final paycheck! :hmm:

[jetset lady]

abc1,

Your posts reveal not only a complete lack of knowledge of what is currently happening within BA but also ignorance beyond belief. May I suggest that in the future, you restrict yourself to commenting on things that you do know something about.

Regards

Jetset Lady
BA Cabin Crew

(Apologies to OP for the thread drift)

[Mister Geezer]

hmmm it's all very well and good to pontificate about "doing your homework", "knowing the pros and cons before joining", etc etc blah blah blah.

Except, that theory falls down when confronted with the reality that the company you joined is not the company it is today, or will be next month or year.

The same could be said for the majority of airlines nowadays since the industry as a whole has changed significantly from our perspective as drivers. I have friends at VS and CX who have said exactly the same after reminiscing about the company they joined so many years ago.

Rather than asking 'Am I happy in the company I am in?', the question some of us could well be asking in the years ahead is 'Am I happy in the industry I am in?'.

[MrMachfivepointfive]

Rather than asking 'Am I happy in the company I am in?', the question some of us could well be asking in the years ahead is 'Am I happy in the industry I am in?'.

Hallelujah! Strike! Jackpot! Nail on the head! Bullseye! Wisest statement in ages.

Commercial aviation has historically been loss making since its inception in 1919 and the yields are headed South still - so are the T/Cs.

Given a chance and a time machine I would be back as a banker.

[sheikmyarse]

Harry I see you just mind about your fellow cods.
Who cares about the sardines sweating in the sand...
Unfortunately the problem greatly lies in the fact that you are swimming in the same sea ruled by the same sharks.

[harry the cod]

Sheikmyarse

If i'm being quite honest, No, I don't care about the working conditions of these people. I don't care because I have no control over their working conditions so why should I stress about it. Their lives do not impact on my life or that of my family. They never will, the same way i'll never get an invite to the Royal wedding this year.

I don't like it anymore than you but that's the way things work in this part of the World. You can blame it on the Indian Mafia who lie to the workers, you can blame it on the greedy locally controlled construction Companies, you could blame the ruling family for not enforcing basic safe working practices for these vunerable people. You could even blame the governments from where these people originate for allowing them to come in the first place, without proper guidance.

At the end of the day, they come from Countries where there is no minimum wage, where abject poverty is rife and there is no social security. Gulf Countries take advantage of that fact and , abhorrent as it is, neither you or I will ever change it. I wish I could change how the banks work here. I wish the driving was better. I wish it wasn't so hot in summer. I wish that when people say they'll call you back they do. I also wish that people realised some things are different here in Dubai to their own Countries and always will be.

If you never accept that one important fact, you'll never be happy here.

Harry

[sheikmyarse]

The UAE has been listed below countries such as Colombia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mongolia, Swaziland, Azerbaijan and North Korea in terms of quality of life, according to a new list compiled by a magazine specialising in moving overseas.International Living magazine’s 2010 Quality of Life Index ranks 194 countries in terms of their quality of living and ranked the UAE 141st, just below Kenya, Kyrgyzstan, Azerbaijan and North Korea.

[jinglied]

I don't just like Emirates, it's awesome!! So is Dubai and the UAE.

Viewing things in a mirror can give you a whole different perspective, especially the rear view mirror.

.. And for those who think Canada is a frozen s...hole. Yes it is, it's horrific. My recommendation is to stay away, far, far away.

Jinglie'd

[harry the cod]

Sheikmyarse

Why do you find it so difficult to take part in a normal discussion on these forums instead of repeating yourself over and over and over again? Maybe you should leave aviation and become a politician. They're good at going round and round in circles with the same diatribe. :bored:

Harry

[saywhat]

The UAE has been listed below countries such as Colombia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mongolia, Swaziland, Azerbaijan and North Korea in terms of quality of life, according to a new list compiled by a magazine specialising in moving overseas.International Living magazine’s 2010 Quality of Life Index ranks 194 countries in terms of their quality of living and ranked the UAE 141st, just below Kenya, Kyrgyzstan, Azerbaijan and North Korea.
sheikmyarse is offline Report Post Reply

Well that's the biggest load of horse poo I've read in years. If your name is Robert Mugabe, then living in Zim is the best place in the world. If your name happens to be Gift Someone or Another, then perhaps Zim is not the best place in the world. The author of that magazine has obviously never been to many of these countries......

[harry the cod]

Sittingidly

Well, I guess you'll be on the first plane outa here pretty soon then, not wanting to live in this ****hole. That is, of course, if you believe what Sheikys posted? As saywhat has just said, what utter crap. Below North Korea.......yeah right. :rolleyes:

I'm all for defending personal viewpoints, and we're all entitled to them, but never answering valid arguments? C'mon, that's being just as ignorant, controlling and blinkered as the society he despises so much.

Harry

[sheikmyarse]

Soon I'll answer your solid arguments...

[harry the cod]

Unions did a commendable job in saving the tens of thousands of pensions that were lost by many a US pilots in the last decade.....not!

And what a wonderful helpful bunch they were to the Aussie pilots 20 years ago....not!

Having been unionised and non unionised, I have no preference either way. For the very few times that I felt the need to contact them for advice, I was always disappointed by their response.

Harry

[sheikmyarse]

It is not being pro or against union the problem but not having the right to make that choiche. Sittin.. don't you worry the Big Brother don't know yet who you are...yet.Anyway by agreeing with Harry that obviously is on management payroll you will probably not lose your job..probably.

[airflirt]

i have stayed in Middle-east for a while in late nineties and i have to say that things have changed from those days.
yes, it is easier from somebody from south asia or far east or africa to get comfortable here because life generally is easier, money better, and way way safer for a family.
however, even then most of them will rue about the weather, the horrid night flying, the sheikhdom, the second class status etc. etc.
you will never be able to call it home. just come for a few years, make some money for retirement and go back.
a long term view is desirable but make no mistake--it may frustrate you sooner than you think.

[Uplink]

It has been a long time since I have posted on here and even looked on PPrune, but this grabbed my attention.

I have been in Dubai a long time now. I have seen many things change and many attitudes change. The company is huge now and still playing catch up. Someone posted a few pages back that if you let the UAE get under you skin you will be unhappy. There are good things and bad things in Dubai. I guess like all places on this earth (and I have seen many) DXB definitely has a dark side and the future for me is uncertain. My dilema like many is where I will end up. After 10 years here I am finding myself starting to allow the place to get under my skin. The problem is however, where do I go. The issue and problem is that I am a pilot and having had several jobs, where is there left to go. Every place will have its pros and cons. Any company you join will have night flying and lets face it, no one likes that.

On the plus side, I havent forgotten why I came here. I have a rostering system that does give me a choice. It isnt always good but it allows me to choose. I always believe that the simplar you keep the bid the more chance your expectations will be met. I generally get 85% satisfaction from my bid. I still have free medical for my family (well almost) as well as dental coverage. I get my limo to work, schooling, housing and bills covered. Before you all jump up and down the negative side will be covered. I can write my own tickets for staff travel and the route network is second to none. Petrol is cheap and it is a cosmopolitan place to live. My work colleagues generally are really great guys and I have now travelled pretty much the world.

The negative side is however starting to increase for all of us. This is not the place I came to 10 years ago. We work harder, but the company has expanded. Officially we are contracted for 900 hours. They make us fly that. In fact now they dont count the time in the bunk on ULR, I think I at one stage at the end of 2010, got my hours up to 970. The rostering quality as far as east to west is a concern and is being worked on. I find I sleep more (maybe thats just cos I am getting old?) My contract bears no resemblance to when I first joined. It wouldnt stand up in a court of law in pretty much the rest of the western world. They have reduced my salary by about 25% through increasing the threshold for overtime. I was told TCAS got DHS2.3 million as a bonus for meeting his budget. Well done you! Well after all this is a rumour network. My DEWA bill is now capped! That wasnt on my contract when I joined. I see a gradual chipping away of my terms and conditions which if you keep a record really adds up. The place is freaking expensive now and this is recognised but not acted on. It boils down to greed and that I really do hate. I see many changes in the company and many have left. On a different post someone called all of us EK pilots a bunch of whiners who never leave. The simple way is to look at the seniority list on a weekly basis. Last week it was 2550, this week it is 2535. I think I am right in saying that EK has taken on approx 1000 pilots in the past 3 years. And yet the seniority list has increased by about 350 ??? I think I move up a place a month and I am 10 years in. However people still join.... The expansion plans are huge. Loads of new aircraft and quite frankly an expasion plan that pilot wise I dont think they can meet. I am told they are looking to hire 400-500 pilots a year over the next 4 years. I dont actually know if there are that many out there. I also believe the next couple of years in EK will be very interesting. They need to have a very close look at how they treat the pilot force. Lets face it we have conceded many things to keep the company in profit. So far they have given nothing back......i will say again, they have so far given nothing back. I hope they are wise and start to repect that dubai is expensive, the schools and cost of living is hugely expensive. I dont hold much hope though. I think their idea of chucking money at us just to shut us up may happen. A bonus is good but short lived. The whole package needs to be looked at. And when you declare a half yearly profit of 351% profit, the whole world will now be looking at you very closely. I am sure there are many other things both good and bad. These are just a few that come to mind. I think the next 2 years will be make or break time for many including me. I believe the USA contingent will probably leave enmasse. They right now are the second highest nationality in the company after the brits. I think the company are quietly sweating, but who knows?

Someone once said, when the **** bucket starts to overflow, its maybe time to leave. I think the majority of us have fairly full buckets.

[harry the cod]

Welcome back Uplink. Great post and telling it how it is, good and bad.

Harry

[Boeing 777-300ER]

I agree with harry the cod.

Finally a well balanced post which states facts. The advantages and disadvantages.

Thanks Uplink

[geo7E7]

So true and undoubtedly agreed about what you just said and hope that's an eye opener for us all.....good one!:ok:

[The Darkness]

Uplink,

Thanks for the insightful post. It's nice to see paragraphs of "the positives and the negatives".

As one thinking about coming back for another interview (after being in the pool in 2008) it was a good read.

I did notice, however, that the "good" paragraph was A LOT shorter than the "bad"!!!!

Cheers all and thanks to all the responders on this thread.

The Darkness

[wheel lock]

To: Sig83, Easybusdriver1, buckdanny and any other concerned party,

I believe your question was "Anyone actually like Emirates?" or something to that effect? The answer is, yes...there are those that are happy here. What you didn't mention (sorry if I missed it) is how old you are, that does have allot of bearing as to whether you should consider coming here or any other expat job for that matter. Another HUGE issue is whether or not your wife/family will be happy here, you must include your wife in this decision as it is she that will be living in Dubai full time!
As for your age:if you are in your early to mid or even late 20's, can you stomach sitting as an FO for up to 10 years? I don't have the concrete facts but just looking at the numbers you can probably expect to sit right seat for at least 7-8 years before your upgrade but if you give yourself 10 and it comes earlier then all the better! What that means is you would be looking at left seat by the time you are in your mid to late 30's.....does that work for you?

As well you have to look at the "today numbers"! Today an FO's basic salary is approx 24,800 AED, Emirates.com/careers will give you the exact number. Convert that into USD and then factor in any taxes etc you may have to pay back home to see if it's worth your while. Don't look at the Provident Fund, bonuses or any "productivity pay" just look at the basic salary and see if you can get by on that. You must remember that Dubai is an expensive place to live, if you join on the AB then you won't get the chance to layover in the States and hit up Costco every month, at least not for the foreseeable future!
What you might want to do is sit down one night with your wife/family and a nice glass of red and start a pro/con list for coming to Dubai vs staying home. Don't rush this process, it may take several nights AND several bottles before your list is complete! LOL As others before me have so eloquently put it, this is a very big decision and not one to be taken lightly. If you are "older" then once you become an expat you will most likely stay one as heading home to join the bottom of the senority list becomes less and less of an option the longer you are away!

Do you know anyone in Dubai/at EK? Is it possible for you to travel out (wife included) to Dubai and stay for a few days+? You really need to get a feel for the place if you can, as stated previously in many posts there are some very good things here and some very bad/frustrating things. All or most of these
things should be factored into your decision. One thing you will find after coming to Dubai is that "customer service" and "after sales service" are an oxymoron but you quickly find out what shops will let you return/exchange and you will not shop anywhere else!
Another very important consideration (if you have children) is where they will go to school and under which curriculum they will study (American or British). All schools here are private for expat families and the fees to some are considerably more expensive than others. This will cut into your pay by up to 2000AED per month for approx the last 3-6 months of the school year depending on the school as EK does not cover the full amount. You can also factor in school bus fees, the cost will be dependent on where you live, school etc. EK does have a bus allowance but it may not cover all of your fees.

Having said all that you need to look at where you'll be in the States in 10 years. If you will be happy flying what you're flying and living where you're living then I think you have already made you decision. Only YOU and your family can decide, take what you can from these "discussions" and throw away the rest! Depending on your view I am one of the "luckier ones' (or not as the case may be) I have been here going on four years and am starting to prep for my upgrade. Four years in the right seat and now I'm looking at command of a widebody, not bad for a guy from my locale (see location under "handle") :)
Again, as has been stated here many times, we are working flat out! Our T&C's have been "altered" since we started and they may be again, who can tell. You are just a "number here" and one mistake in this company/country can (but not always) have some devastating consequences! We fly east, west, north and south sometimes all in one week, we fly the wrong side of the clock too often (especially on the AB) and we are very very tired! Are wives complain that we are "not there" when we come home and yet.......most of us still enjoy it! Now that may be because we are to "dumb" (read: too old) to retool and do something else but we are still here for all of our varying reasons.

The book "Don't Sweat the Small Stuff" (and everything is small stuff) really comes into play when you move to this part of the world. Things here are not what they are at "home" and you need to adapt to that or life here can become very difficult (if you let it). Remember that the Middle East is part of Asia and there is a very Asian mentality at work here, sometimes not allot of thinking goes on "outside the box"! It's frustrating at times but if you're ready for it then it is much more manageable and does make life easier.
I do have to say that living here as an FO, with a wife and two medium sized children is a challenge financially! It was easier at first when we were seeing"productivity pay" on our paystubs. In addition, the bonus and annual 3% increase certainly didn't hurt either. We can't count on those things now so we do really watch our money! We have only one car and do not have a boat, plane or any other toy in the garage! We also do not live high on the hog, go out for dinner very often and (minus the annual family pilgrimage back home every summer) do not take family vacations.
On the other hand, we have lot's of great friends from all four corners of the world, have plenty of dinner/bbq parties and get together with great people to raise a glass of cheer any chance we can get! Am I doing something wrong financially?? Quite possibly......but I'm still having fun :)

The move out here is a long term one, keep that in mind. If your children are young then this is what they will remember as "home" growing up, is that okay with you? It is for me but again we are all different and this isn't for everyone. You come from a great country with many fantastic opportunities right outside your door! There are some here to but you must adapt to a different way of life if you want to enjoy it. You can't keep thinking...."yeah but back home" or "in my previous company", that will only drive you to drink (more) :) and make you miserable. You can be happy here if you want to be....you can also be miserable, the choice is yours and yours only :) I hope this long winded rant has helped even a small bit!! Please feel free to PM me with any questions you might have (and there will be many, you can count on it)!

Good luck in your career and you upcoming decision!

Cheers,

WL

P.S. "buckdanny" I believe it was your wife with the good job/career? Another big decision but as someone else previously posted there are many opportunities out this way for trained professionals! Do your research/homework first to make sure she finds the right job and the be sure to get EVEYTHING in writing before you move out here! Remember...happy wife, happy life"!!

P.S.S. One more thing guys! You have to remember you are at least 13-20 hours travel from "home". What about you parents or more importantly your wife's extended family? Is she going to miss them terribly and want to leave after a couple of years? Getting home is not easy and requires a great deal of time. Be sure your spouse is okay with missing birthdays, anniversaries and even Christmas and other special occasions! Ahhhh...they joys of living half way around the world :)