MR2 MAD circle flying

[richlear]

Hi,

I found a pic taken from behind the pilots in an MR2 where it looks as if they have about 60 degree bank on. If I read the rather blurry radalt I think it reads 450ft - presume this is in a MAD circle?

A pilot friend of mine asked about the airspeed in such a manoeuvre - anyone care to enlighten me - I was normally down the back at the time.

thanks

Rich

[Neptunus Rex]

450' is a bit high for MAD, more likely manoeuvring to take up an attack track over a sonobuoy.

MAD was flown at 200' and on a calm day the wing-tip vortices would leave a visible trail on the surface.

[Pontius Navigator]

And on a dark night at 300 feet it was $%^&*ing scarey if you wandered up front for a peek.

Speed would have been around 210k at a guess. The Retro in the Mark 1 had a speed range of 114-257 IIRC and a central of 198 which was optimised for the Atlantic.

[fergineer]

Some great memories of 200ft in a MAD trap not many people used to visit during them times Pontious most were holding on and praying for the "mad mark" so that it would all stop.......almost as bad as stage 2 in the Moray Firth eh!!!!!

[olddog]

As I recall, from several years ago.

Peace time limits were

200 ft - Max bank 10 degrees War time could be authed to 100 ft
300 ft 40 degrees - Normal Ht for hunting circle by day
500 ft 60

Speed in Mad hunting circle 220 - 250 kts to minimise revisit time

Mad tracking cloverleaf flown at 300 ft, descending to 200 by day when flying down subs track to maximise detectection range. 300 ft min at night.

With a wingspan of 120 ft it concentrated the mind of most pilots!!!

[TheSmiter]

Hi Rich

Think you might mean this pic, which, I think you'd agree, is pretty awesome and goes some way to demonstrate the agility of the aircraft. You and I know what it felt like to be loading sonobuoys in these conditions - marvellous!

Photos: Hawker Siddeley Nimrod MR2 (801) Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK---Air/Hawker-Siddeley-Nimrod/1317308/L/)

From the caption: XV244/12 Oct 2006/ 680'/246kt/AOB 50deg

MAD pattern? Nah! Looks more like a co-pilot's short finals at Gib :sad:

BTW you do realise that most Pruners will be thinking WTF is MAD what are they on about :confused: .

Maybe see you at the closing down sales Rich. Hic :ok: et Ubique

TS

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

MAD patterns were generally flown at 220 KIAS - faster at heavy AUW.

Duncs:ok:

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Just looked at the piccie. It looks like an SCT to me - reversionary ASW.

I hope it wasn't a STANEVAL sortie:

VDC is the wrong way round! Well above 220/Vmsw! Gloves are brand new!

Duncs:ok:

[Charlie Luncher]

m m m m madmark!
Still have the scar on the top of my noggin from the forward galley door track after trying to land on the acoustic seats whilst comping, one run up from the retro and fly, twas all about timing - mine not so good:ugh:
Charlie sends

[TheSmiter]

Gday Charlie. FFS how many times did we tell you to sit down during comps? :ugh:

Are you coming over for the spring sales? All must go: 201,42,CXX

Susupect it'll be the purple death from hell, mixed with moose milk.

[Widger]

Just a note of caution as to where this conversation could go guys. Whilst the platform has gone, the technology hasn't.

:ok:

[TheSmiter]

Widge

:oh: schtum

Good point well made! Only understood 85% of it anyway; Stasi always zeroed in on the remaining 15 ....... barstewards :mad:

Anyway, happy days, still a fresh yet raw memory!

[Pontius Navigator]

Widger, and the capabilities of the Mad on the P8?

[The Old Fat One]

Only time I am aware that the 100 ft wartime limit was evoked was during the Falklands War.

I recall the boy captain creeping up on a returning merchant vessel and flashing past the bridge at 100 ft. We waited for the gasp of appreciation on channel 16 and instead we got...

"Not impressed mate, I've still got bits of Skyhawk stuck in the deck!"

[TheSmiter]

TOFO -'kin big Mad mark!

Was that the time your 'boy' was demonstrating the properties of ground effect by trying to push the column forward against the pressure? Or is that just one of those apocryphal maritime stories. Glad it was your crew and not mine!

TS

[davejb]

We went past Antrim (if memory is correct) for a maildrop S of Ascension during the away match, and I was looking up at a chap standing on the forward 4.5" turret as we went past. Dunno how high that was, but I suspect we might have been playing wartime rules. Fergie - you'll have been on that sortie I think? We then did the usual stand on tail, go upwards with a loud noise routine, which pribably amused us more than them.

The way the Nimrod was thrown around at very low level, often for long periods at a time, was quite something to experience - none of it was anything like as barf inducing for most folk as a MAD comp (pre SACS). I was lucky enough to have iron guts and often wondered how anyone could sit in ESM fiddling with the switches with regular breaks to re-examine breakfast. (In some cases to revisit every meal for some time past, and the occasional item of footware).

Dave

[Pontius Navigator]

On an exercise in the med around '76 our OC, Smiling Jim, came along to see that we did not drop any sonobouys as we had expended our total exercise allowance on earlier trips.

We were trying to do an ident on 2 orange FFG in 100% vis at 200 feet. Everytime we inched in the locked up on us. We would ease out again and break lock.

Smiler was standing in the back and asked in an obscure way what our MOA was. Of course we went through the matrix and came up with 200ft. He kept repeating the question.

Eventually we got to the bit '100 ft if authorised'; he then said 'you are'. So we went in again with the rad alt oscillating between 80-120 and AOB aroun d 10-15 degrees.

Of course had we speared in there would have been no evidence of authorisation. We had a P1 and an AEO Captain.

[Party Animal]

PN,

Not sure if your earlier comment was a statement or question but either way - just to confirm - the P8 is not fitted with MAD.

[Shack37]

BTW you do realise that most Pruners will be thinking WTF is MAD what are they on about http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif

"Munching a Doughnut" maybe?

[Biggus]

"....Just a note of caution as to where this conversation could go guys. Whilst the platform has gone, the technology hasn't....."

As long as nobody gives away anything about DCS then we should be fine!













I'm pretty sure that the Brits were the only MPA crews in NATO to fly with DCS, and even some Nimrod crews didn't employ it.

[green granite]

BTW you do realise that most Pruners will be thinking WTF is MAD what are they on about

I'm sure, after reading posts about throwing the Nimrod around at 100', they will have formed their own Idea. :E

[Pontius Navigator]

PA, a snide point :)

MAD has been in operational use for over 70 years now. The capabilities and limitations will be well known. However no one is about to say that against a ******* we got a detection at **** because for operational crew we often simply do not know.

There is an interesting article in Magnetic anomaly detector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_anomaly_detection) which goes a lot further than my knowledge on the subject.

[Joe Black]

I believe the P8A will not have MAD, however the Indian navy have opted to include the sensor on the P8I variant - purely open source information.

[PingDit]

DCS? We sometimes got airborne with one each!
Those were the days....

[oxenos]

Don't know about the Mk2, but the Mk1 height/bank rules in peace time were 200' minimum, with 10 degrees of bank per 100', plus 10 degrees, i.e. 30 degrees at 200', and progressively up to 60 degress at 500'. There was no difference between day, night or IMC.
Speed was standard endurance speed of Vmd + 5 kts, so around 220 heavy, 185 light
As oldog said, it concentrated the mind.

[FE Hoppy]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs105.snc1/4778_1157099161120_1036952426_457370_7541972_n.jpg

[1771 DELETE]

On the MK1 before we had the 9TC, usually one crew member did all the comps which initially included yaws that were later removed. Having a good stomach, i didn`t mind sitting on the seat and working. I also seem to remember that it was a min crew for a full comp. It could take a full 20 minutes and was usually dependant upon how consistent the pilots were with the manuevers.

As for getting down to 100 foot, i do remember once being cleared for it but cant remember the reason, not too much room for turning and burning down there.

[fergineer]

Ahhhhh DCS pilots never did find out what they were missing!!!!!!

[reynoldsno1]

as barf inducing for most folk as a MAD comp
I have never been so airsick as I was on one of these in a Mk.1 - lasted an hour, and found out afterwards the compensator was u/s. :yuk:

[Pontius Navigator]

Some pilots like to do the Mad Comp at the end of a sortie. Never bothered me but she certainly yawed like a whore.

[PFMG]

Spent hours flying MAD patterns as a data gathering exercise for a trial. I won't say much more other than if you were there you know.

The nutty scientist's glamourous assistant (Gina Faustina) made it all worthwhile. :ok:

[Siggie]

DCS, whilst still frozen remove top section and insert a thin layer of mustard, a wizard wheeze for the flight deck portions.

A similar recipe to removing a frozen meal from the tin tray and inserting a tea bag at the bottom before heating.

[Charlie Luncher]

Gina unpacking the crate on RP with just a vest on and nothing else swing free puppies. Lets not forget Doptrack Debbie the only girl I know that would show through an Arran jumper.
Never saw any DCS when I flew with Siggie, it all makes sense now he is not big boned.
Widge stop licking the screen!!:8
Charlie sends

[FATTER GATOR]

Pontius Navigator,

How does a whore yaw?

:O

[Pontius Navigator]

Have to shoot you, you knew, you'd know



so I have been told :)

[thunderbird7]

DCS? Not as secret as 'Granite'...

[Siggie]

How dare you mention G****** on here, there may be Yanks reading!!

Charlie L never saw the DCs cos he was like a great white, his eyes always rolled back when he went in for the kill.

[The Old Fat One]

G*******

I remember her. She helped me get to sleep once...although she wasn't present!!

[Doptrack]

I do read these posts you know!

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[The Old Fat One]

Best AEO put down (and I was one, so never let it be said some of us could not enjoy a joke).

Tall, bald, rugby playing dry man (worst pprune cover up ever!!)

"AEO's are alright, but pound for pound I'd rather take another dairy cream sponge"

Spoken loudly (inevitably) in flight planning with loads of the breed present.

I hope you are well old chap wherever you are - happy days down the old Elizabethan.

[Jig Peter]

@ Pontious

Was that "whorelike yawing" the reason the MRA4 got all those bits* added to the back end - I don't think any other aircraft, except a small twin from Beech ever had so many "fixes", which showed there was "summat odd aft". "If it looks right ..." and Vicky Verky.

* Fin extended uppards and forrards, "sticky-up bits" added to the tailplane ...

PS- Apologies for the tech speak ... :E

[Shack37]

Some pilots like to do the Mad Comp at the end of a sortie. Never bothered me but she certainly yawed like a whore.


Some pilots like to do the Mad Comp at the end of a sortie. Never bothered me but she certainly yawNed like a whore.

So I've heard:{

[Pontius Navigator]

Jig,

I came from the V-force and thought I might try my hand at some proper astro. First the sun gun was b****y useless compared with the Mk2 Peri, OK, it was supposed to be more accurate in azimuth for correcting the IN - that says something about the Mk 1, but it had no decent hand grips.

Then I briefed the pilots on the niceties of monitoring heading and speed changes. Having been used to speed changes of a knot or so and heading changes of no more than 0.2 degrees the best the Mk 1 could achieve was about 1.8 degrees in a minute.

It was such a rotten astro platform that for the rest of my tour we were either 'tactical' or below cloud so I did my 3 and 6 hourly heading checks using FMA.

I am surprised they didn't consider trailing a drogue chute to straighten the damn thing up.

Oh, the other thing, how can you keep 6 knockers sitting still for 10 minutes - you can't, so that really was that.

But that reminds me - the astro step. You left a light on to illuminate the step and a bag hanging off the sextant. If you didn't trip the buggers up they brained themselves :}

[airpolice]

Jig Peter said

* Fin extended uppards and forrards, "sticky-up bits" added to the tailplane

This is not only too techy for some ppruners, it is just wrong. I think you are referring to the "stick uppy" bits on the rear.

[Jig Peter]

I hadn't thought about the drogue chute (!!) ... I did think that a few more feet of fuselage length might have been the answer (if a spot of cutting & shutting was practicable on such an old design of fuselage, built in an "old" way), but then there would be a limit to the ground angle on take-off and possible tail-strikes - unless the undercarriage was lengthened, which raised even more "wottifs". The design team clearly had its hands full with this "new wine/old bottles" affair ... as fitting a new wing built in accordance with modern practice to a "hand built" (!!) fuselage showed.
'Twas an all-too typical "cheapo bodge-up", in spite of much hard work by the design and engineering people. (Well, that's wot I fink ennyway).

Re astro: Driving a Victor 1 for astro (and other precise manoeuvres) I found that the G4B's markings on the pilots' display, with their 2° steps, didn't make things exactly easy, but with finger-tip pressure on the controls, one could stay within less than 1° of heading (on a good day, and not for all that long !!!). Your comments on "the other type" also go to show what a poor "vehicle" was being foisted on what used to be Coastal Command (and 'nuff said about that too).

[Pontius Navigator]

Remember it also had sticky down bits too, certainly not 'stick downy' bits.

[Jig Peter]

I was referring to the rectangular sticky-uppy and downy "fins" on the horizontal, not the vertical tail - or were these operational kit?

[airpolice]

Guys,

The point is that bits go uppy or downy, they are not sticky.

No wonder the MRa4 was so far behind schedule when a description is so difficult to agree on, never mind the functionality!

[Jig Peter]

The "bits" I meant were surely fixed, to do something about stability in yaw, so they didn't move (hence were "stuck", as in "static", rather than "going up & down"). :8
Sorry my "tech speak" has caused misunderstandings - "Spiritus Festivius" perhaps... Seasonal greetings to one and all, and specially those whose future is looking uncertain, both military and civilian.

[Rossian]

....you forgot to mention the ventral strakeythingy made of marine ply and duralamin which was supposed to help with lateral stability in addition to the sticky-uppy-downy thingies. The strakey thingy also provided irrefutable evidence of QFI's millisec of loss of concentration as he said "Now rotate positively, stick back - NOT THAT MUCH !!!!" Clunk.
NO! We didn't smirk. Honest guv.

To go back to MAD comps, there is still at ISK a pilot with the smoothest pair of hands when it came to that manouevre. One barely noticed that it was happening. He had the knack of reversing the roll or pitch manouevre juuuust before the bottom of the roll/pitch limit so that the reversal was imperceptible.

The Ancient Mariner

[camelspyyder]

The uppy-downy bits(UDB) on the tail were part of the AAR mod in 82, compensating for the extra lateral area of the probe I suppose. On the original mod the UDB were spare VHF aerials that we had lying around!

To an earlier poster I dont remember min crew MAD comps but on the OCU we always had about 20POB and did a comp on every tactical sortie.

CS (CamelSpotter in this case)

[davejb]

MAD comps were sometimes posted on the flypro as such - ie not something you did as an extra whilst on a CT or whatever, but a sortie specifically generated to set the MAD up on an aircraft. We'd fly them - at least the crews I was on - as min crew trips.

Prior to the introduction of SACS you'd do the rolls and pitches on cardinal headings for a while, the ESM guy would be adjusting rates and switches on the 9TC attempting to figure out the correct values for the set. A sort of iterative process of loops within loops, which - whenever I was on one - we'd tend to break up every now and then to let folk regain their composure and have a brew.

On my first OCU in 78 I remember doing them once or twice (mainly for demo to Mr Wheatland's idiot students - ie me, Snorky and Kev), but not every trip. Once SACS arrived it all speeded up rather.

By delaying the distribution of the nicer bits of in flight on such a sortie you could find days when even the DCS couldn't tempt some of the crew to eat. (I realise that groundies will not believe such a thing is possible).

Dave

[Pontius Navigator]

I thought the AAR-VHF aerial mod was because of the inherent yaw and dutch roll and thus necessary not juts because ot the probe but to ensure the probe was going in the same direction as the drogue.

Re the accuracy of the G4B, the Mk 2 Vs had Smiths MFS and the plotter used to monitor the MI with a magnfying glass. Once the HRS was introduced there was a digital readout to 1/10th deg.

(if a spot of cutting & shutting was practicable on such an old design of fuselage,

Don't you remember the Mk 3 was a cut and shut? Same fin just mounted on a new g*d awful empenage.

I suppose with hindsight the whole programme from Comet on was a cut and shut. The trials aircraft as the Comet had the radar but not the bomb bay and so on. Then sticking a searchlight on a fuel tank, a canoe on top of the tail etc etc.

[The Old Fat One]

To an earlier poster I dont remember min crew MAD comps but on the OCU we always had about 20POB and did a comp on every tactical sortie.


Concur with DJB - you're getting confused with the MAD comp post SACs fit. Prior to the SACs introduction, which was before the MR1 was replaced by the MR2, MAD comps were always scheduled as a specific 3 hour sortie and usually (but not always) minimum crew. No way would an OCU 20+ crew ever have flown a MAD comp before the SACs was fitted, except as DJB states, as a demo for training.

In fact, up until about '76 MAD comp crews were specifically authorised. Bear in mind the SACs itself was upgraded post MR2 introduction, hence where you might be getting confused.

Even if all went well it took over an hour to comp the MAD prior to SACs and on many an occasion it was virtually impossible to run in all the terms.

I once flew from on side of Scotland to the other and back again trying to run in V+ and had every crew member except the Captain honking (including me).

I was not a popular bunny.

[1771 DELETE]

Not only was the comp specifically authorised but only certain crews did them, in the wrong hands, both at the front and the back you could waste a lot of time and aircraft fatigue and not achieve anything with the old 9TC, the SACS was a vast improvement and basically allowed any crew to do a short comp on any sortie.

[oxenos]

In early '67, we had a presentation to all crews at Kinloss on our future aircraft. Didn't even have a name - just HS801. They showed a drawing, on which the aircraft had a simple Comet fin with a dome on top ( and that fin always looked too small on the Comet ).
An ancient aviator took one look and said " that fin's too small". Boffins go to great lengths to explain that the big dome on top (the ARAR/ARAX aerial) would have an endplate effect and there would not be a problem.
I heard afterwards that the first flight was rather short and shaky, and the test pilot got out and said "that fin's too small".
They added a fillet, then a bigger one, and the one on the Mk. 1 when it entered service was the third version.
We were told on the conversion course that the prohibition on opening the bomb doors with a double yaw damper failure was to avoid damage to the doors. Given that the doors looked as if they had been carved out of boilerplate, we rather suspected that it was more a case of the extra side area forward would have caused the thing to try to turn around and fly backwards.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Someone elucidate DCS, just fill in the acronym please?

Intrigued to see the Mighty Hunter had Boeing seats!

[Wasser]

Ah the nutty scientist, also known as the Mad Professor or 'Bones' on AEDIT because of his physique.

As rep from the MAD bay I remember going to a monthly MAD meeting at a Nimrod base down south. Crews were complaining about the MAD performance since the new SACS had been started to be fitted. The Mad Prof then theorised for about 30mins, all of which went over my head. It wasn't until he said "it looks like the MAD signal isn't getting through to the SACS" that he started speaking my language again. We sorted the problem not long after.

Was Gina on the RP MAD trails for the new fit in the late 80s? I should remember her, but my memory's playing tricks again :\

[oldbaldeagle]

"Autolycus in.............." Am I the only one old enough to remember that cry?:\

[Agaricus bisporus]

SV, thanks. I might have known; so fits the caricature, doesn't it?

[Rossian]

....DCS could have stood for Distinguished Conduct Service, but ACTUALLY stood for Dairy Cream Sponge. This was one of those frozen desserts issued by in-flight ration store which was incredibly popular with MPA crews.

"Allto cockulus in" MR1 was was fitted with but very rarely used. An abstruse bit of kit hung over from the '50s. The clue being in the name given to it as Autolycus was described as "a picker-up of unconsidered trifles". Ah the benefits of a classical education.

The Ancient Mariner

[Lyneham Lad]

Was that "whorelike yawing" the reason the MRA4 got all those bits* added to the back end - I don't think any other aircraft, except a small twin from Beech ever had so many "fixes", which showed there was "summat odd aft". "If it looks right ..." and Vicky Verky.

Wrt the Beech, I remember walking across the pan at an obscure corner of Hamburg airport to board a flight to Gothenburg and being confronted by one of these very strange-looking beasts. The "if it looks right..." phrase came to mind then and it was with some trepidation that I clambered on board. However, the biggest shock was the realisation that there was no loo - I was soon wishing I'd known that before indulging in a few beers in the airport lounge! Talk about a close-run thing...

[thunderbird7]

Wasn't the 'drogue' the thingy that a certain crew thought was a fighter chasing them up the Persian Gulf one day? Oh no! That was a turd :ok:

"Guilotine the TRD" ( for evasive flying )

"Captain port beam, the fighter's gone now" :}

...and in the Adriatic, from the Nav looking through the Challenger tank sight..

"Captain Nav fighter 2 0'clock high.... oh hang on... its the moon"

[Charlie Luncher]

The call from the Nav messing around with sandpiper was "Mark Mark Barrage Balloon break right! :rolleyes:" I think young Kev went on to be a pilot for the great unwashed.
Charlie sends

[1771 DELETE]

Charlie
Nearly right, miss out the mark mark call, they were pretty boring flights and sandpiper was the only toy we had. Did i every tell you about winding up the captain by telling him that reporting point Millfield had been incorrectly plotted and all vessel reporting for the precceeding 2 weeks was in error. Kept the story going for a couple of days, the captain is over your way and the second nav had very red hair.

[MATELO]

Photos: Hawker Siddeley Nimrod MR2 (801) Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK---Air/Hawker-Siddeley-Nimrod/1317308/L/)

I miss this.

[oxenos]

The only DCs I remember were green, as old as I was and weighed 250 lb.
I don't recall the Autolycus ever being used on the Nimrod. The bit about "snapper up of hidden trifles" came from Shakespeare. In yer ancient classics he was described as the greatest thief and LIAR of his time. They got that right.
Ο Ξένος

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

MATELO,

Me too!:(

Duncs:ok:

[Euan Whosearmy]

Richlear

I found a pic taken from behind the pilots in an MR2 where it looks as if they have about 60 degree bank on. If I read the rather blurry radalt I think it reads 450ft - presume this is in a MAD circle?


As others have said this is not a MAD circle being flown. That said, I can't tell you exactly what is happening.

Using all the clues: the RADALT reads 650', VOR 2 is tuned to Inverness (109.2), IAS 246 kts (well above VMSW for the weight on the VDC), BARO alt 600', Flt system selector is set to 'off', Deviation display indicator set to 'buoy' and the flight director is selected off. As somebody else has said, the VDC is the wrong way round to be operating on task. Looks like fuel is 15K or 18K and (possibly) they have BARO selected, vice RADALT, on FD/Autopilot panel. I'd guess this is an SCT sortie and the crew are either just wrapping up a LL serial (probably in D807), and the eng has pushed the VDC forward in anticipation of transit home, or they're in the cct turning right downwind for initials (unusual off R/W 26) to run back in for a break.

White trim on the pilot's name badge would indicate 201 Sqn.

Brings a tear to my eye to see the photo; can't believe none of us will fly the old girl again.

[Neptunus Rex]

Not in the circuit. Only the inboards are thrusting (~ 88% RPM) # 1 seems to be shut down, with # 4 at Flight Idle.

[FE Hoppy]

The picture I posted on the previous page was the crew who avoided the moon. It was just before GW 1 probably a couple of nights after I took that pic. I'm surprised no one has chastised Sooty for flying at 100' without gloves!

Oh happy days.:)

[davejb]

White trim on the pilot's name badge would indicate 201 Sqn.



Oooh, you were doing SO well up to that point, but I had white surrounds and 201 is the only Sqn I was never on! (Although 42 I only held on).

Then again, perhaps it was a pilot thing... for some reason they seemed fairly keen not to let me into the front stalls, so maybe it's a combination of colour and the seat you were in....back in radar everything had more a green tinge than anything else, especially on Mk1's.

Dave

[PFMG]

Me too!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif

Duncshttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

And another :{

PFMG

[thunderbird7]

Huh! You whinged like f**k when I was flying them!

[stbd beam]

me too ......

[Exrigger]

As a young rigger on what was the NMSU 72-74, I asked if it would be posssible to go on the flight test of the aircraft I had worked on, even in those days it was not the done thing but eventually I was cleared as a engineering advisor, or some such technical term.

Two parts which I was impressed with was the stall warning check and what I was told was a MAD comp, which from memory consisted of basically throwing the aircraft about to make sure the MAD equipment stayed 'on line', one pilot I recall was more enthusiastic whilst doing this check and I seem to remember looking out of the galley window with the aircraft at what almost appeared to be about 60-70 degrees of bank and then snapping to opposite roll, once level then followed by raising the nose up to stick shakers and then stick almost fully forward, this being repeated a couple of times.

But that might just be my perception and exagerated memory from an excited youngster who was overawed at flying in our aircraft, though spent many happy times over the years in the Nimrod (in my case MR1/R1)flying to various places so will miss her.

Off topic but on one air test we had climbed to height to do the aformentioned check and then got told to strap in as the nose was put in to a steep dive to land at kinloss declaring an emergency as we fell out of the sky, one of the front windscreens had cracked right across the outside layer, bit of a moment for me if truth be told.

[Euan Whosearmy]

ME TOO :ok:


Not in the circuit. Only the inboards are thrusting

That was fine if turning back out to initials with gear and flap up - as in photo.

# 1 seems to be shut down

#1 HP cock is on and locked. Also, photo was taken a month after the loss of XV230. I wasn't on the Fleet then, but I don't think engines were shutdown for fuel economy at that time.

Oooh, you were doing SO well up to that point, but I had white surrounds and 201 is the only Sqn I was never on! (Although 42 I only held on).


I stand to be corrected but I believe 42 and 120 had yellow surrounds. Could be a 51 pilot on convex or SCT mind. Anyway, enough of the anorak for me, time to kill more brain cells with the whisky.

[A20DEK]

To try and explain the photo discussed, as I was the one who took it!

As a photographer I was authorised to fly with a planned operational sortie on the day. After much 'on the bus off the bus' and back due to several faults, the planned six hour sortie was eventually canned. After discussions in Ops it was decided that the crew would fly what (if I remember correctly) was called a 'training flight' around the local area of Findorn Bay with a few circuits at local airfields.
During this time I was taking photographs from various locations on the aircraft and asked the Captain if he could give me a max angle of bank turn to allow me to take the photo discussed. This he duly obliged - after giving me the hang on tight brief!

Again, if I remember correctly, there was minimum crew on board and it was not what I believe is called an operational sortie.

Hope this helps in the discussion!

Regards, and once again many thanks to the crew, who will remain nameless.

A20 DEK

[BEagle]

...asked the Captain if he could give me a max angle of bank turn to allow me to take the photo discussed...

On this occasion, everything seems to have gone well.

All those who have attended the FSS will probably go :rolleyes: at the mention of performing for the camera.....:uhoh:

[TheSmiter]

Beags, while your point about performing for the camera is valid in a general aviation context, in this case I think a tad unfair.

Nim pilots were taught to fly high AOB for training and operational sorties and practiced the manoeuvre on a regular basis. The guys in this excellent image were not doing anything out of the ordinary. Also, given the date, I don't think any MR2 pilots, let alone a Sqn Ldr, would do anything to put the crew at risk just over a month after a really bad event for the force.

Derek, really nice picture, captures the essence of low level maritime work better than most I've seen!

TS

[OilCan]

Neptunus Rex
# 1 seems to be shut down

Captain - Eng, it's not shut down....it's on FIRE! :eek:

It's OK though, the fire's inside the engine where it should be.:cool:

[Widger]

BRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrpppppppppppiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnn nnnngggggggggg!!!!!!!


:ok: Those days are gone my dear.........................:eek::\:{:{:{:{

[PFMG]

Huh! You whinged like f**k when I was flying them!


That says a lot more about your flying than I could ever hope to! :p

[AQAfive]

Was never fitted to the MR1 or MR2, it was however, fitted to the MR1 MCT although never used. Except, that is, when bored it could be switched on and when the paper moved and you could draw on it.

[davejb]

Vague memory here, and I'm not suggesting it was ever switched on or used/attempted use, but wasn't the Autolycus switch fitted to the MR1? I seem to remember it being on a panel above jez?

Autolycus was, by the time I started flying, already a myth - usually referred to as a sensor for tracking <insert name of pipe smoking siggy here>

Dave

[Dimmer Switch]

Like you Dave, I can't be absolutely sure of anything at my age, but I'm fairly sure you're right about the autolycus switch; I think I remember a check (Tac checks or after take-offs maybe) along the lines of autolycus/VHF switch to VHF. Or maybe that was just my crew winding me up.....again !

[WK622]

No idea about operational use but we were removing the `outside bit' of the autolycus from 203's Mk 1's in Nimrod ASF at Luqa 75/76. Seem to recollect it looked rather like a ray gun of the time!

Happy Daze and a Fine Aircraft. :ok:

[Sempre 206]

The kit was fitted, and worked, sort of, in the early days of the Mk1.
The display, a simple pen/chart recorder was, IIRC, fitted between the two M1c Sonic indicator units.
If there was a televised air display and Raymond Baxter was commentating, it was always certain to get a mention.
Most homes have one today; the basic technology is the same as a Smoke Alarm.

S 206

[reynoldsno1]

we were removing the `outside bit' of the autolycus from 203's Mk 1's in Nimrod ASF at Luqa 75/76. Seem to recollect it looked rather like a ray gun of the time

Sounds about right - I do remember using the Mk. 1 drift sight on more than one occasion. Aaaah, the days of a 3 drift wind using a retro marker smoke.....

[oldbaldeagle]

I believe Autolycus had been removed from the MR1 by the time I arrived on Nimrods but I recall a particular homing on a cruise liner while on 203 that was hopeless, up front we were watching the beast belching smoke while criss-crossing behind it, with only the intermittent autolycus in cry. It dawned on me the other day that not many subs had their snorts about 16 stories high Oh well, better 42 years too late than never:ugh:

[sargs]

Dimmer Switch - it was the "SARBE / Autolycus" switch, which IIRC was checked in the "Tac Checks Outbound" - I thought I'd taught you better than that!

The Autolycus equipment had definitely been removed from the MR1 post 203 returning from Malta, it was replaced by the 3rd Sonics set, giving us dry men a chance to monitor cold active buoys........

[The Old Fat One]

The Autolycus equipment had definitely been removed from the MR1 post 203 returning from Malta, it was replaced by the 3rd Sonics set, giving us dry men a chance to monitor cold active buoys........


Brings back memories...

Many crews had half a dozen b cats (real ones). Several advanced crews per sqn, even the odd select crew kicking around. Wet men did radios (and quite a few stood a radar watch). Dry men filled on 1C when short handed. The better AEOs could often do the lot (until GSU put a stop to that).

And if you didn't see a soviet, it wasn't a real trip.

[davejb]

Ah, nostaliga's not what it used to be, is it?
it was replaced by the 3rd Sonics set, giving us dry men a chance to monitor cold active buoys........

Us dry men used to get on 1C quite often, in 807 at least, and Killer Davies (wet man of this parish) used to hop onto radios quite frequently, given half an ounce of encouragement.

Then the GSU made us all study amplifiers and telephone books (I assume that's what all those **** numbers were once Loral arrived) and a little spark of light died in the siggy world....

[Brakes to Park]

Ah , the GSU , otherwise known as the GRU. Those aces of the base employed to give destructive criticism. La creme de la creme , except when you flew as extra crew on one of their SCTs and got to see they weren't quite as good as they thought they were.

[sargs]

That's true. Went as extra crew on a Medex in 1981 with the GSU - 7 or 8 A Cats on the aircraft. We floated around Hammamet for about 15 mins before somebody mentioned that the Altay we were photographing was, in actual fact, a Dubna (I'd spent those 15 mins puzzling as to why I couldn't "walk all day" on the Altay, but thought 7 A Cats can't be wrong....)

That was the same det that John Mill***k learnt about Kokkinelli at Chris's - Halcyon days!

[Dimmer Switch]

Thanks Sargs - I just chose to concentrate on becoming totally accomplished with the operation of my principal switch - all those other ones were just frills ! Stay warm and mind those frail old hips on this ice ;)

DS

[sargs]

Cheers Dimmer - but no ice where I am, other than in Margeritas! Keep smoking the Rothmans for me, I'll do your drinking for you!

[Pontius Navigator]

Ah , the GSU , otherwise known as the GRU. Those aces of the base employed to give destructive criticism. La creme de la creme , except when you flew as extra crew on one of their SCTs and got to see they weren't quite as good as they thought they were.

Ah yes, even earlier I was rent-a-nav to bring the aircraft back from St Mawgan. The GSU borrowed the jet to go home.

The route nav, sharp as a tin tack, was in blues with an LSJ on and slumped over the Rnav table for the whole flight.

:E

[AQAfive]

Ah, I stand corrected. When I joined the fleet in 1973, Kinloss not Luqa, the Autolycus was not fitted to the ac and I was led to believe never had been (or maybe it was and I was told not to touch:=.....but then surely I would have done!) It seems I was wrong, not the first time and certainly not the last.

[Pontius Navigator]

AQA, it was not taught in '74 either however I have a vague memory that 203 just might have had it based on the different atmospherics in the Med.

That said, just how long did a sub snort compared with a surface vessel? You needed to be quick catching a snorting diesel and would not have had very long to sniff about.

[olddog]

I can confirm that autolycus was still fitted to 203's MR1s when I arrived in 1974, but can't remember ever (trying) to use it in the Nimrod.

As I remember, in Shacks, we used it as an additional sensor during radar or visual search at 500' or below. The seach track would be a CLA with the tracks across wind gradually proceeding up wind (the wind needed to be light but from a steady direction) in an area with low surface contact density. (High pressure with an inversion in the N Norweigian Sea?) If autolycus was "In" an audio signal was superimposed on the pilots intercomm and heading was held until autolycus went "Out". The width of the trail gave some clue as to the range to the source. The aircraft was then positioned to make another "cut" further up the trail and descended progressively as range decreased, and so on until visual contact was made.

In practice most crews would throw away the procedure after 2 or 3 cuts and use the info to align a sector scan ahead with the trusty ASV 21 in an attempt to catch the surfaced or snorting sub before he achieved a full battery state.

Having smelled the inside of a sub that has been on patrol for a week or so, we might have done just as well by putting our head out of the window and sniffing!!

Ah! Those were the days, when you open the windows in flight!!

[Neptunus Rex]

Sector Scan ahead would alert any sub way outside your radar detection range. The trick was to sidestep by a few miles, fly a parallel track and use Sector Scan abeam.

[Nimman]

To give you some idea of the date of removal of Autocylus from the MR Mk1.
Command Mod 44 was issued 3 May 73 for the "Removal of redundant avionic equipment and fixed fittings comprising Autocyclus Mk3A" and Command Mod 65 on 26 Oct 1973 for the "Removal of Redundant Autocyclus Fittings". These Command Mods were covered by Nimrod Mod 265 iss 8 Jan 1975 "Provision for the deletion of Autcyclus Fixed Fittings and associated wiring".

[Neptunus Rex]

Only 15 months from the Command Mod to the Nimrod Mod. Impressive!

"One Staff Officer jumped over another Staff Officer's back!"

[Shack37]

Now I feel really old. I was on the first (ground crew) Autolycus course held at St. Mawgan E&I section in, I think, 1968.:\