91 Year Old Spitfire Pilot Needs Your Help

[VIProds]

I have just finished filming a 91 year old Spitfire photo reconnaissance pilot talking about his wartime experiences. Alec would have to fly over to Brest in France, which was the heaviest defended of the occupied ports on the French coast. A total of five Spitfires were shot down over Brest trying to look out for the Battleship "Scharnhorst" & submarines. Alec would then have to fly on to St-Nazaire, La Rochelle, Bairritz & St Jean-de-Luz on the Spanish Border photographing all the harbours & airfields. They weren't armed & had extra fuel tanks fitted where the machine guns, cannons & ammunition used to be. He would have to fly nearly 1,000nm.

On one sortie over Brest, he was hit by flak & soon, engine oil covered his windscreen & side canopy, so had to fly back to St Eval in Cornwall on instruments. When he thought that he was about there, he opened the canopy slightly so he could see out of the side, to land. He carried out a perfect landing but unfortunately, his brakes were damaged so went off the end of the runway & the Spitfire flipped up on it's nose. He was uninjured so was flying the very next day.

In 2002, Alec attended the 60th anniversary reunion of the PRU at RAF Benson & was asked if he would bring photographs of his Spitfires & his aerial reconnaissance pictures as well as press cuttings that he had saved, to be displayed at the event. After the reunion, when his items were not returned, he wrote to the Flt Sgt that was organising the event. He didn't get a response, so wrote to Benson's C.O. & again amazingly didn't receive a response. He even tried to get his local Member of Parliament involved, but without success. Alec is nearly blind now & this has had a bad effect on him. He gave his all for the Airforce & feels badly let down by the modern Airforce, which is a shame as he is a smashing gentleman.

I know that this is a long shot because the many years that have past, but if there is anyone out there that might have any information on Alec's property, you would make a very brave aviator very happy.

[NutLoose]

That is absolutely disgusting... Shame on them. :mad:

[Whenurhappy]

In 2001 I loaned an album of WWI aerial photographs (taken in Palestine and France, with annotations) to the PR museum at Benson. Tried to view it several years later - the said folio could not be found...

I am surprised, however, that the Stn Cdr didn't respond to the letter from the former Spitfire Pilot. A quiet call to the Adj or PA/CO should get this matter sorted out, pdq.

[TheWizard]

Try the Benson MCO (I have copied this thread to her) and she might be able to point somebody in the right direction.

RAF Benson - Visiting Us (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafbenson/aboutus/visitingus.cfm)

[Henry09]

VIProds

Do you have any names? In particular the Flt Sgt? I think I know who the CO was at the time, but names would be useful. Stick them up here and you will have a response in hours, either that or send them by PM.

We once had an Octoberfest in Germany and invited some very special German guests one particular year. One of them was an old boy, maybe 70 years who came wearing the best traditional German clothes, including a Hat with badges and medals on covering Octoberfests around Germany for the previous 50 years. He elected to leave his hat in the cloakroom of the Officers Mess, a fair thing to be able to expect to do. By the end of the night, when he was going to leave the hat had gone. He had been wearing this since he was 20 years old. he was simply stunned, and we had that 'beam me up Scotty' moment. I am not sure I have felt embarrassment like it, either before or since. Despite an appeal around the station we never had the hat returned, and we lost some very good local Station friends and landowners. The main culprit was a young Fg Off who had been holding. He never answered the 'charges'.

Mmmmm! Good luck with the search for the photos, sadly the elderly chap was willing to give his life for this generation, but someone somewhere will not be willing to give him his memories back.

[TheWizard]

Thanks to VIProds for bringing this to the public fourm. With the power of PPRuNe I have contacted the Benson MCO/PRO who has asked me to publish the following on behalf of the Station (she does not have a Proon account).
Hopefully this will go someway to helping Alec achieving the response he should have been originally afforded.

“Unfortunately due to our operational commitments the collation of our historic material, both donated to us and loaned to us, was delayed for a number of years and there was no dedicated team available to look after it thus it was simply stored. This has now been rectified and we are fully cataloguing all material and ensuring that it is displayed with the correct recognition and honour to which we owe those who have served our country. We have recently opened our Heritage Centre, which takes pride of place in Station Headquarters and displays RAF Benson’s historic information, images and artefacts. If anyone believes that they have loaned images or artefacts to RAF Benson and they would like to obtain them, please do get in contact with the Public Relations Officer via email at [email protected] giving details of the items and she will ensure that a thorough search of the archives is completed at the earliest opportunity.”



:ok:

Edit: email address = *[email protected]*

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Not good enough.

Start with an unequivocal apology, rather than an excuse.

Don't use phrases such as 'If anyone believes they have loaned images...' unless you want to imply that Alec and others are somehow suffering from senility.

What is 'the earliest opportunity' supposed to mean? To a 91 year old man in ill health that's not very helpful. At least be accountable to those on whom you depend for contributions. A deadline would be a start.

End by reinforcing your regret for any inconvenience that may have been caused.

Again, rubbish response, but par for the course if the experience of Alec and others is anything to go by. :mad:

[BEagle]

TheWizard, good effort, but that Kremlin Communique from whatever an MCO/PRO is was frankly appalling. Totally inadequate in all respects - it's worse than some customer service excuse.

No apology - and the cr@p about 'operational commitments' simply doesn't hold water. Benson had $od all 'operational commitments' back in 2002 and someone (probably the Flt Sgt) totally cocked up.

Tell the woman to damn well get herself a PPRuNe account immediately so that she can tell us what she is doing about this unacceptable state of affairs tomorrow.

A VIP station visit should be arranged personally by the Stn Cdr - this gallant old chap put his neck on the line for his country all those years ago and all he gets is this bland statement? Nonsense - Benson, you screwed up in spades, now sodding well unbugger things!

And whilst you're at it, get the plastic Spitfire repaired - last time I saw it, it was an utter disgrace.

But perhaps symptomatic of today's pitiful excuse for an air force?

[VIProds]

Many thanks for your inputs & TheWizard's help in getting the PRO's e-mail address. I drove Alec & his wife to our Aircrew Association Ladies Christmas Luncheon yesterday & while there asked if he would mind me mentioning it on PPRuNe. He didn't mind, but thought it was a lost cause. He obviously didn't realise the PPower of PPRuNe.

I have just 'phoned Alec & he is over the moon whith your support & gave me more details of what he lent them. I am about to e-mail the PRO with the details, so will keep you informed.

[DC10RealMan]

The non-commital and bland statement from a representative of the Royal Air Force probably comes from page one of the PR handbook together with "Lessons will be learnt" and "Our thoughts and prayers are with the family"
It is also on a par with any statement issued by Tesco, Morrisons, PC World, or Asda but certainly inferior to Marks and Spencer after all that appears to be what the Royal Air Force is nowadays a multi-cultural, market orientated, profit centre with budget holder responsibilities.
God, how I hate the modern world!!!

[PENNINE BOY]

What a disgrace!

My father is 91 and an ex spitfire pilot, his pictures and other momentos are a big part of his life.
t
I do hope the RAF get this sorted asap. It would be nice if the pprune members could all chip in and lets send this guy something nice for Xmas!

PB

[Gericault]

It's fair to say I seriously regret being a member of this so called modern world. Alec has been treated appallingly and deserves infinitely better. A while ago I closed an ex WW2 recce Sqn and sadly put a considerable amount of history into the hands of the RAF to look after, just in case..... When the Sqn was eventually reformed the new team went to get the stuff only to find bits missing with some pretty horrible allegations about where they had gone. Fortunately the valuable pieces had been stored securely elsewhere thanks to a strong, influential Association. We are losing the decent core of everything I loved when I joined the RAF and I really regret it. I will continue to do my bit, all the rest of you who are serving must do yours to try and maintain at least a modicum of the history we have inherited.

[Canadian Break]

If this doesn't warrant a trip for the Outrage Bus then I don't know what does. Escalation anyone?

[MartinCh]

What about involving some tabloid papers?

[Canadian Break]

Let's give the system one last chance - anyone here have input to CAS' office - preferably direct to CAS himself - or know a man that does ;)?

[hoodie]

What about involving some tabloid papers?

I expect they're reading it already.

I agree with previous posters - publicly putting the onus back on Alec to get his own loaned property back is disgraceful.

[Jimlad1]

This reads a bit like a 'how not to do PR' nightmare!

My personal view is that if this sat within my area, I would be making a quick phone call to the MOD press office in Main Building, advising them that right now there is the making of a wonderful tabloid story on this website, and that unless something is done PDQ, then the RAF is about to be seriously publicly embarrased and its all its own fault. I would suggest that some fairly quick damage control is needed now, as this is the sort of story that Tabloids love, and will enjoy running (particularly if they can do a 'it woz the sun wot won it' angle).

Rebrief the key people now, get them in over the weekend if needs be to find the items and then get someone suitably (i.e. very) senior to turn up at this gentlemans house and present him with his belongings in person with a full and unreserved apology.

People are always busy, but in my book, anything involving individuals who served us at our time of greatest need goes straight to the top of the 'to do' pile regardless of what else is brewing. We owe them a debt we can never repay, and shabby treatment like this is a disgrace.

[Melchett01]

Jimlad - agreed. I hope they use this as an example at Staff College / Media Ops cses etc of how not to manage a situation, because frankly it really does tick all the boxes of how not to do it.

Sadly, probably not the first time, certainly won't be the last time, and it's not just the RAF. My grandfather was a sgt in the Paras when they first stood up. I remember my grandmother lent my grandfather's medals back to the Army for a display they were doing in the 80s. Half of them went missing, and she had to do the donkey work with the Medals Office to get them replaced. She was so proud of his service and what he had done for his country, but that one incident was the only thing I know to have rankled her right to the end.

We really do know how to shoot ourselves in the foot sometimes. Then again, if you're going to cock it up, you may as well make it a whopper like this. I used to be the Station Historian at one of my old units, and frankly, it was fantastic getting to talk to the old boys and legitimately sloping off work to host them. But here, it seems to be a bit of a chore. Many of us here may not be able to actively do anything to help reunite Alec with his photos, but buy God VIProds, I think it's fair to say you have our total support in your efforts.

[reynoldsno1]

Sadly, I have had a similar experience with many of my father's mementos that were loaned to a squadron at ISK ... I have never ever even had a letter acknowledging anything about them ...
I'm glad I left when I did...

[Airborne Aircrew]

As a passing thought, if any of you have anything on paper related to earlier days, be it RAF or Family, get it put on a PC soon as you can. Let's not lose anything else for the want of a good copy being made. I am working my way through a digital vault of our family photographs. This way, no one house fire will rob all of the kids of their heritage.I couldn't agree more... My father and uncle worked for several years to document our family back to 1712. Having seen their dedication I took their research and "reversed it" taking the bare bones and adding "the story" where I could and made a web site from it that documents as much as I can. The absolute best parts are those where family members took the time and effort to document and tell stories of their lives, their parents and their grandparents... All that information that will, in a few short years, be lost. Encourage your older family members to write or record their experiences, find all their photos and write, (gently), on the back who everyone is, where they are and what they were doing.

It might not be important to you, the rest of your family or their kids. But one day one of your descendants will thank you more than you can imagine for keeping such precious artifacts.

All that having been said - Benson needs utterly reaming... They have stolen a families heritage. Shame on them, utter shame!

[BEagle]

course_profile, if Benson fail to respond adequately, I won't personally contact the station - but I might well ask a couple of investigative media reporters (one writes for a national daily) to do so.

It'll only take a couple of quick e-mails. However, better to let Benson attempt to sort this mess out first.

But you weren't really interested, were you? You were just stirring....:rolleyes:

[Winco]

How dreadfully sad for this Old Boy, and what utter shame on Benson and the RAF in general.

VIProds
Please pass on my sincerest best wishes to Alec and his Wife and tell him how embarrassed and ashamed many of us are here. It is a sad testimony to the service that this has happened in the first place, but even more so that those involved don't seem too bothered about it! I am truly saddened.

OC Benson - Sir, get your finger out of yopur ar$e, get in your car and go and see Alec and his Wife and give him your personal apology and assurance that you will do everything you can to return his property, DO IT TODAY.

It's called theft at the end of the day, and those responsible should be ashamed.

[Odigron]

Firstly, I have been a Prune reader for many years and never felt the need to comment and therefore, never registered - this thread has finally forced my hand.

I have to agree that the failure to take care of this brave airman's property is an utter disgrace. The personnel involved should indeed be ashamed that they did not look after such treasured memoirs. The fact that there were no responses to his request for the return of his personal belongings is inexcuseable.

I also agree that the response of the MCO is not all that it should have been.

Let us be clear on that facts and I know that I will be told if I've got this wrong!

- The Benson Team in 2002 were leant personnel belongings for display.
- They were not returned to the individual when requested.
- They cannot be found.
- His requests for them to be returned, directed to the CO, were not answered.
- The MCO, through an intermediary, posts a poor response.

As far as I can see the 2002 Team have messed up in spades and the current MCO hasn't helped. Let's not blame the current Benson CO for his predessors appalling error, as I understand it, he's only just arrived at Benson. By the power of PPrune, I'm guessing that the CO now knows about this issue - I think he deserves a chance to address the situation before he is hawled across the coals for something he didn't do.

[Benson PRO]

As demanded, the RAF Benson PRO/MCO has indeed got herself a PPRuNe account.

For those who took umbrage at the message posted on my behalf, I apologise; however, without all the facts I was not in a position to offer a public apology or give a deadline as to when the artefacts could be located without first undertaking some research (which was instigated immediately).

To hopefully reassure everyone slightly, I can confirm that we have been in contact with VIProds directly and, on receipt of the details of the items, an urgent message was sent out to all parties on Station that have anything to do with the collation of the historical archives. One of our most knowledgable Station history experts may already have located some of the items and is in the process of clarifying that they are the correct items. I will also be liaising with the Station Commander this afternoon to request that a personal apology on behalf of the Station is sent as a matter of urgency to Alec, and we have already apologised to VIProds for the failures of the Station in the past.

If there is anyone else who has previously donated or loaned anything to RAF Benson that they would like to recover, please get in contact with me and I will do my best to help. I cannot guarantee that all items will be located but I can guarantee that we will do our best to find them and return them to their original owners as quickly as possible.

[SeldomFixit]

At least the chap to whom the memorabilia belonged appears to be acting with dignity.
Righteous indignation, whilst well intended, is a poor look gentlemen.

Those who CAN do something, do it, quietly and correctly.
Those of you who THINK you can ( but really can't ), watch from the sidelines. I doubt Alec wants his belongings returned in other people's baggage. :(

[Dengue_Dude]

I am worried again, I agree with BEags.

We need to really embarrass them into doing the right thing, if they're unwilling to take the hint.

The Services do NOT need adverse publicity at this time, especially as the rank and file of the populace have much more of an idea what's going on and sympathy with them.

Perhaps it'll be explained in a soon-to-be-released Wikileak . . .

[Brian 48nav]

I heard a very nasty story a couple of years after the Falklands War. Some civilian ATCOs visited Yeovilton to do research for a book they were planning and allegedly one of them stole important documentation relating to the FAA's role in the war.
There are some very nasty people about, particularly when it comes to 'spotting' types.

As for this sad story, station commanders are not gods although they may like to think so. If someone has OC Benson's name and number then ring him. Don't pussyfoot around with minions.

In 1991 while my son was on his first Incirlik detachment,sadly his favourite young cousin died. My brother was anxious that my No1 son was immediately informed and given the chance to come home for his funeral. I thought I'm not buggering about,so picked up his phone and rang Coltishall Staish direct, refusing the offer to speak to any PAs. He had no problem and assured me he would contact OC 41 straightaway. Thanks Phil D'A...!

[Odigron]

I've watched Prune with some interest, from the sidelines, for many years but, the perceived threats in this thread have driven me to register and voice an opinion for once.

Clearly the original receiver of the memrobillia messed up by not looking after this fine gentleman's posesions and then the hierarchy messed up (assuming they received the letter) by not answering his querry back in 2002. Then the current MCO has not helped matters with their (supposed) post on this thread.

I think it's fair to say that the Station has been given a 'heads up' of the issue. Assuming the information about this has got through to the CO (who I understand took over this month), let him deal with it without threats of media leaks and inappropriate Directives to action.

Let's have a little decorum dear people.

[VIProds]

I fear that I might have initiated a ticking time bomb, here. I was only hoping that someone might be able to help Alec retrieve his belongings & thanks to PPRuNe, we have been pointed in the right direction.

I have just received an e-mail from the RAF Benson PRO, who has profusely apologised for the lack of communication in the past. She has given the details that I sent her "to the team that are currently looking after the Heritage Centre & the Station Historian to look at this as a matter of urgency".

It might be of interest to know that Alec had to fly from St Eval in Cornwall to Norfolk as Military Intelligence had heard that the Germans were testing a new rocket aeroplane thingy on the Baltic Coast at a place called Peenemunde (that rings a bell!). Once Alec refuelled, he had to head up the North Sea in a North Easterly direction till he reached Denmark then turn onto an Easterly direction towards the Baltic, where he was able to photograph Peenemunde. The journy was further than flying to Berlin & the round trip was about 1,000nm. Alec's only concern was that he had a "numb bum" after sitting in a crampt Spitfire cockpit for nearly 5 hours.

[draken55]

Brian 48nav

In conversations with staff at the FAA Museum in 1978 I learned that it had not been not unknown until then for the Head of the Navy's Historic Branch to gather up material donated by private individuals to help with his work.

I am pretty sure it was never returned but got mixed up with other material that was then passed on after his death to a worthy repository albeit not the FAA Museum:hmm:

Lending material is quite another matter though.

[Jimmy Macintosh]

VIProds,

I know this isn't the right place or time, but since when has that stopped anyone.

It would be great if some of Alecs story could be added to the "gaining an RAF brevet during WWII" thread. It's a fascinating thread and has a great following.

Of course there is something more important going on in his life at the moment but if time allows his contribution would be valued.

[November4]

Encourage your older family members to write or record their experiences,

I got my 88 year old grandmoter to sit down in front of a video camera and got her to talk about her life (seeing a Zepplin coming down in flames, children being brought out of a school after it was bombed, Great war ending, Second war blitz etc and more mundane family stuff like their first car) I just wish I had done the same with my grandfather (Steam powered submarines / M2 aircraft carrying sub, China being invaded by the Japs, Malta / Russian convoys). All that history witnessed by 2 people...yes get it recorded while you can!

edited to add...

My grandmother lent the Submarine museum a load of my grandfather's photos from his time in Subs. She said they could borrow them to copy and then they were to be returned to her. A year later I wrote a strong letter on her behalf asking if she was ever going to get the photos back. A month later they were returned with letter saying that they had a backlog of items to copy and shortages of staff...etc...etc...

[A2QFI]

This sort of thing, valuables or personal property going missing, seems all too common. Do we know the fate of crates full of Squadron silver once held at Quedgely? Where is is it now with Quedgley a housing estate? There were some very nice David Shepherd original paintings in the Mess at Eastleigh, in the 60s, where are they I wonder? I understand that the Government has a collection of fine art for adorning offices and a great deal of it was missing when a check was last done. Wasn't there some mystery about the disappearance of some Wilkinson Trophy/Prize swords some time back?

I hope this gentlemen gets his mementoes and property back and I am sure he will not be too keen to lend them out again.

[BEagle]

BensonPRO, thank you very much indeed for your quick work and for the personal interest which your Stn Cdr has taken in ensuring that this brave old chap will soon be reunited with his precious historical items.

It would be tremendous if something special could be arranged to make the reunion a particularly special day for Alec, although clearly your ongoing operational activities may make this rather difficult.

[TheWizard]

Then the current MCO has not helped matters with their (supposed) post on this thread.

I think it's fair to say that the Station has been given a 'heads up' of the issue. Assuming the information about this has got through to the CO (who I understand took over this month), let him deal with it without threats of media leaks and inappropriate Directives to action.

Let's have a little decorum dear people.

Perhaps the most sensible response so far.
Just to clarify, there was no 'supposed' about the post from the MCO, it was a direct quote from her which she requested I reprint as a favour as she did not have a PPRuNe account at the time.
As the MCO now has her own voice on here I have no need to act as an intermediary, so would be grateful if I didn't receive any more PMs about what 'I' could do about the situation!! Don't shoot the messenger people!!
Hopefully the gentleman and his mementos can be reunited in good time.
Regards.

[hoodie]

BensonPRO, the initial (second hand) response was very poor, but I agree with BEagle - and credit very much where it's due - that rapid and positive follow-up has made up for it. I do hope Alec gets everything back soon. All the better if circumstances do allow it to be presented in some special way.

Best wishes to Alec, to you, and to those from the Station - particularly those currently in harm's way.

[Icare9]

I have sat here on holiday in Spain reading this thread with utmost horror that a Force which I hold in the highest respect has acted in such a way. I have tears in my eyes that anyone should have received such treatment.
Perhaps the comment about the plastic Spitfire sums up what a "first rate" Service has now been reduced to, but the personnel I had believed were better than that.
I do hope that by the time I am back in the UK, this dreadful situation has been satisfactorily resolved.
BensonPRO, we are watching what you can do.

[VIProds]

1. Alec standing by his Spitfire

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e78/Evileye03/aaaAlec1.jpg

2. BBMF PR flypast at Alec's 90th Birthday party.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e78/Evileye03/aaaAlecs91stFlypast-1.jpg

[VIProds]

3. Alec (on the Left) & Jim at the Veterans Parade.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e78/Evileye03/aaaAlecJim.jpg

4. Painting of Alec's Spitfire.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e78/Evileye03/aaaAlecPainting.jpg

[NutLoose]

Does this mean they have been succesfully recovered?

[VIProds]

No unfortunatly, I filmed these as "cut aways" when I was filming Alec's talk. I thought that it might help to put a face to the name, also a reminder for RAF Benson that we are still waiting.

[PPRuNe Pop]

THIS.............is a sticky until those precious items are found!


PPP

[Shack37]

PPP, a very long round of :D

[angels]

Well done PprunePop.

Folks, remember to check out the 'brevet' thread for amazing flying tales which will definitely give you a numb bum if you try and read them all in one go!

Here's hoping Alec gets his stuff back sharpish, it's already been too long.

[Tiger_mate]

Not wanting to undermine the theme of this unfortunate thread, but the painting above is not as described.
http://www.directart.co.uk/mall/images/dhm2284.jpg
The Scenic Route by the late Alan S Holt.
A 225 Squadron TAC/R pair returning from Bologna over the Apennines, January 1945. EN199, The Malta Spitfire is being flown by F/O A.S. Holt (the artist) with F/O Kurt Taussig weaving.

Alan was a personal friend and mentor and this was one of his final paintings before he passed.

[VIProds]

Sorry for any misunderstanding TM. Alec was telling me about the painting while I was filming it. I have gone back to the Master Tape & Alec was saying, that he also knew Alan Holt, he was an art Master at Market Raisen, but was also a member of the North Lincs ACA. Alec said that he would buy a print if Alan could put his Sqdn letters (FT) on the side as it reminded him of a similar flight that he & another pilot made. Alan said, of course he would, so Alec has got No6 of a limited edition print, which would appear to be even more unique as Alan changed the markings for Alec. If you check the two paintings, you will note the difference.

[gravity victim]

My late father-in-law had a very different experience at the FAA Museum at Yeovilton. A Swordfish TAG who served on small escort carriers ,mostly in the North Atlantic, he was treated like royalty by the staff there, who asked to borrow and scan his logbooks for their records. He was amazed that they would be interested in what he thought was mundane stuff, but they explained that by cross-referencing crew details they could help other families researching their serving forebears locate who was where, when. He did have a whole page signed off by one S-Lt Laurence Olivier (target towing, Worthy Down, Albacore). He got his logbooks back promptly, and a memorable Taranto Night dinner as well. Thanks FAA!

[320JI]

Not a flyer myself but long time lurker...

i have that picture too signed by Alan who i had the absolute pleasure to know since i was about 10 (37 now).

He was a true hero of mine and i still see his wife every year in scotland.

Hope the stuff gets found.

[cazatou]

I trust that "Benson PRO" is going to issue an update prior to knocking off for the Festive Season.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Won't do any harm to ask them by PM!

[cazatou]

Sent five minutes ago!!

[Without Care]

Caz,

I think Benson Main shut up shop last Friday so the PM route (well said PP) might produce the response you require.

Happy Christmas

WC

[TheWizard]

With all due respect, why would the Benson PRO come on here to update a load of complete strangers?
The matter has been highlighted is now between Benson, Alec and VIProds and I am sure the latter will update us in due course if he sees fit.
In the meantime, Happy Christmas wherever you are.

[cazatou]

The Wizard

If you go back to the original post on this thread and read that again, you will see that the "normal channels" have been well and truly clogged for many years.

Alec has so far (despite the best efforts of the Third Reich) exceeded the Biblical "three score years and ten" by some 30%. Time is of the essence if Alec is to be reunited with those documents that show exactly what he contributed to the Allied War effort whilst flying an unarmed aircraft over Enemy Occupied Territory. Remember that those documents were placed in the care of the RAF following a formal request from an RAF Unit.

One has to ask if RAF Benson, having failed to locate the missing items, have placed the investigation in the hands of the SIB. The longer this goes on the more likely that it is not a case of "lost property" but rather a case of theft for personal gain.

[forget]

'With all due respect' Wizard, I'm with cazatou on this one - and I'm bending towards his last paragraph.

[cazatou]

Kreuger flap

The documents were placed in the safekeeping of RAF Benson at the request of that Unit many years ago. Since they were placed in the safekeeping of that Unit they have either:-

1. Been Lost
2. Been Destroyed
3. Been Purloined

If they were lost it should have been reported.

If they were destroyed there should be a record.

There is apparently no report and no record.

[VIProds]

Just by way of an update. RAF Benson PRO e-mailed to say that they have not uncovered anything yet, but "we have made contact with the individual that was responsible for the Anniversary Celebration & he is assisting out Station History Staff in their research".

Alec 'phoned me to say that he had received a letter from RAF Benson, who requested more detailed information on his property. We arranged for me to go over to his house next week so that we can make an itemised list & try & correlate it with his log book.

[Biggus]

VIProds,

I hope the letter also containing a grovelling apology, or is the intention only to apologise if and when Benson discover that they still have some of the material that was LENT to them so long ago....!!

[Without Care]

VIProds,

Please could you check your PMs ref your last post.

with thanks

WC

[TheWizard]

Seeing as someone has seen the need to delete my perfectly civil and logical reply to Castazou then I shall say no more except to say that by selective censorship you have proved my point about this thread. An explanation would have been nice but there you go. Sad really.
I don't expect this post to last long either:hmm:

[cliffnemo]

As the originator of 'Gaining a pilot's brevet in W.W2 I have P.Md VIProds. and asked him if it would be possible to post to the thread any details and photos of his father's service career.
I can personally assure him that much interest will be shown in every post he makes, by cheerful and very interested readers.
I would also point out I am sure his father would be interested in print outs of some of the contributions made by other wartime pilots.

cliffnemo

[cazatou]

Who is this imposter "Castazou"?

[Without Care]

Let's hope it's an improvement.

Simple mistake that any Shawbury Graduate pre-97 could make.

[VIProds]

Cliff, Alec is not my Father. He is a friend & we both belong to the North Lincs Branch of the Aircrew Association. I have started filming speakers (with their permission) that we have at the monthly Branch meetings so that the Branch can archive the DVD's for posterity. Once Alec's story is completed, I will be sending three DVD's to the ACA archives at Elvington.

I have just started to read your thread for the first time, so can see many entertaining hours ahead of me. I will be going over to Alec's later in the week & will see if he is happy with me transcribing his story for "Gaining a pilot's brevet in WWII".

P.S. My father was actually an RSM in the Cameron Highlanders, I am sure his kilt flew on occasions, but he certainly didn't.:eek:

[vortexadminman]

Sadly,
I have to say even the RAF Museum is as bad. My fathers medals went in there for a display in the coastal command section. After a year I went to see how it all was, after asking to see where his medals were I got blanked by the guys there ( not blaming them at all) I filled in the request for information, I emailed them, I phoned quite a few times..........and yep you guessed it............. now't response.

The worst thing is my mother who is still alive keeps asking where his medals are in their display! so when she asks me how are they doing(she does not live in UK ) I am trying to say all is good when in fact it is fecking not!!! I can feel a trip down there soon....................

Best of luck to this man who deserves better

[Double Zero]

I know it's a much smaller scale, but when a guide at Tangmere museum, ANY kit or memorabilia loaned or donated was signed in with a simple form, for both the museum and the donator / lender's records.

They also receive a nice little letter of thanks shortly afterwards; if a 99% volunteer group can manage it, one's blood fairly boils that well paid 'professionals' actually in the force being commerorated can't do a proper job...

[VIProds]

I visited Alec today & he was able to give me more detailed information about his belongings, that RAF Benson borrowed, but did not return. I have now e-mailed that information to Benson's PRO, so hope that this will help them in their search.

XV1979 Alec did not recognise your Grandfather's name, but said that Mount Farm was a satalite airfield, so sometimes he would fly some of the PRU pilots over there in an Anson, so they might well have rubbed sholders.

[VIProds]

I have just received an e-mail from one of the Directors of a Defence Company in New Zealand who specialize in UAV's. They have purchased a 90% scale size, all metal replica of a Spitfire. They hope to receive it in June & it will take about a year to build & paint it.

They will name the Spitfire "Constance Babington Smith" after the famous PRU Photo Interpreter, who discovered the V1 ramps at Peenemunde.

They are going to paint the aircraft in PRU colours & markings & have asked if I would find out from Alec what he felt his most significant Mission was & they will paint the same aircraft markings on their Spitfire.

I 'phoned Alec last night & he thought that being hit by flak over Brest was his most significant. I can't blame him, flying blind for 170NM not knowing if your engine would last out ! I have seen that enty in Alec's Log Book & have arranged to go over to his house so that we can identify what markings his Spitfire would have displayed.

What a fantastic thought that Alec's bravery will be remembered in this way. Thank you Hawkeye UAV NZ.

[Biggus]

VIProds,

I presume there has been no update on Benson finding and returing the items that Alec lent them - or no doubt you would have told us?


Given that this matter was first brought to the attention of Benson staff on 9 Dec 2010, some 49 days ago, even allowing for the Christmas break I would hardly say that Benson appear to be pulling out all the stops on this one....


Of course if there have been developments not mentioned on this thread?

[VIProds]

Biggus

You are correct, I have heard nothing back since sending detailed information on Alec's property at the beginning of January. I have e-mailed RAF Benson's PRO & asked for an update.

Will keep you informed.

[cazatou]

This thread has now been running for 50 days with apparently no progress whatsoever in finding those precious documents.

Is it, perhaps, now time to place the matter in the hands of the SIB so that a formal investigation with evidence given on oath can be instituted? Such a course of action may "jog the memories" of those who are called upon to testify in such an investigation.

[Wander00]

Has this matter, which brings no credit whatever on our Service, been the subject of a Parliamentary Question?

[VIProds]

Good thinking Wander00, Alec did ask his local PM if she could follow it up. She was one of "Blair's Babes" & didn't want to know. There now has been a change of "spectrum", so I will chase this up & see if there is any change.Thank you.

[VIProds]

I've been out of the loop for a bit, with a virulent form of "man flu". I sent an e-mail to Alec's new MP, but as yet, no reply. RAF Benson's PRO sent me a message to say that they are still working on recovering Alec's possessions & have also located the person that organised the 60th Annaversary Reunion so are talking to him. Thanks to cazatou, I have also witten to the MP who's Constituency includes RAF Benson & asked if he would pursue this matter & get it resolved once & for all.

[cazatou]

Just to bring this back to the top - I thought this thread was a "Sticky".

[NutLoose]

Me too.........

On a similar vein, did anyone watch the Antiques Roadshow last night?

A 1st World War pilot had loaned his WW1 DFC medal to a museum in the midlands as they had none on display, the museum took a direct hit during WW2 and the building with all its contents were lost, they painstakingly went through all the rubble and devastation and recovered the clip with part of the original ribbon still attached (horizontal bars not diagonal) and fwd'd the remains of his medal onto him....... he had a replacement issued with the later ribbon, but still in part had his original.

One marvels during WW2 in amongst the terrible bombing that was going on, they had he tenacity and forethought to recover the last remains of his precious medal and return them to him......then compare that to RAF Benson.............:mad:

[Dengue_Dude]

Just to bring this back to the top - I thought this thread was a "Sticky".


It was old chap - a bientot . . .

[forget]

... they painstakingly went through all the rubble and devastation ...

Credit where due. It was Leeds Museum. Got my attention too. :ok:

[Evanelpus]

She was one of "Blair's Babes" & didn't want to know.

She should definately be named and shamed. Mind you, with that attitude, she probably isn't an MP any more.

[angels]

Just to keep this thread circling RAF Benson --

she probably isn't an MP any more.

I think the 'change of spectrum' remark indicates that she's now an 'ex babe'!!

[cazatou]

This thread has been running now for nigh on 10 weeks without any sign of those documents. There now needs to be a formal SIB investigation into how those documents went missing.

Whilst that investigation is under way the Gate Guardian at Benson should, as BEagle has suggested, be renovated and then it should be repainted in the markings of Alec's Spitfire as an act of expiation.

[Tankertrashnav]

My own experiences as a militaria/medal dealer led me to have a healthy cynicism about museums, and their cavalier attitude to security of the items in their care. On at least two occasions I was the unfortunate purchaser of items which I subsequently learned had been stolen from a local museum, in both cases by volunteer workers. On another occasion a friend who had been the CO of an ATC squadron had given items from the squadron to the local town museum when the squadron disbanded. When that museum was closed as a cost-cutting move by the council he enquired about what was to happen to said items, only to discover that they had "disappeared". I am not saying that this is what has happened to vortexadminman's father's medals, but he should not hesitate to report the matter to the police should they not come to light soon - this may shake the RAF Museum up a bit.

[Without Care]

Caz, I know someone who should be able to get the contact details for the SIB and I will PM you them tomorrow so that you can set the ball rolling.

Good suggestion about the gate-guardian. Beagle was absolutely correct about it needing a re-furb - an anhedral tail-plane???! Beagle is so right about some things. Pity his comment about Benson's operational commitments at that time was shy of the mark like many of his offerings about the rotary world.

Hopefully, somebody at Benson will manage to source Alec's items soon; the lack of progress is ominous.

WC

[Ewan Whosearmy]

No longer a sticky? Why?

[xenolith]

CAZ

If you want this bloke to get his stuff back, why would you want the SIB to investigate?

[airpolice]

Xenolith, I do hope that's just near the knuckle banter.

[cazatou]

Without Care

I am not sure that the SIB would take much notice of someone who left the Service 15 years ago and is resident in France.

I believe that it is now incumbent on the Stn Cdr at RAF Benson to contact the SIB and request that they instigate a full investigation.

[NutLoose]

Think dropping a few hints to some magazines and newspapers will help?, after all, a tabloid newspaper knocking on the station commanders door may get him off his butt and get it sorted, same too for their local MP

[cazatou]

The Local MP is already involved - see post 77.

[Dengue_Dude]

Firstly, I support this attempt 100%.

BUT . . . what reaction do you expect from an outfit that can do something as crass as tell people they're sacked by email?

I KNOW that wasn't done here, but it's the whole shebang, nobody gives a **** about one old bloke's memorobilia and THAT just sums up how far we've sunk. We get the mouth-music every November and I remember Bliar lining up with the rest placing his wreath on the Cenotaph, but what do YOU reckon, does he care? The evidence seems to point elsewhere.

It's a travesty and I'm disgusted. But frankly, that's my problem, because the people concerned here won't give a **** UNLESS they ARE called to account.

Best of luck

[VIProds]

Had a Msg from RAF Benson stating that the History Team have completed a thorough search of all the archives & haven't been able to locate Alec's items.

The Station Commander has requested that Alec & myself be invited to meet the Commanding Officer Base Support Wing "it is hoped that a face to face meeting will alow us to resolve the matter more effectively" ? They would also ensure that there is sufficient time for a brief tour of the areas of the Station where Alec was based.

I spoke with Alec & he indicated that he would love to revisit Benson. I asked Alec's lovely wife, Audrey if she would like to take my place, but she insisted that I accompany Alec as I would be in a much better position to describe details & explain things to him, because of his failing eyesight.

I wrote back to Benson & accepted their invitation & asked if they could arrange transportation. I felt that a return car journey would mean that Alec (who would be 92 by then) would be stuck in the car for six or seven hours & that would be too long for him. I said that we lived only a few miles from Humberside Airport (nudge, nudge, wink, wink). Benson said that they could not supply air transport, but kindly offered to send a rail warrant.

I went on the British Rail website & found out that the return journey from Cleethorpes (our local Station) to Didcot Parkway would take a total of nine & a half hours & we would have to change trains a total of six times, so that was totally unaceptable. I have asked that, if I was able to arrange for a private plane to take us down there would they give the pilot permission to land ?

I have just had a reply back from Nikki the PRO, who has been fantastic throughout this issue. She said that it would not be a problem to land a plane at RAF Benson. The pilot of the aircraft needs to ensure the necessary paperwork & arrangements are in place & can be completed with just a couple of days notice.

So all I have to do now is find a kind pilot who is current, that can fly us from Lincolnshire to Oxfordshire & back sometime after April !!

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

There might be some at Cranwell.:O

Duncs:ok:

[cazatou]

Perhaps Stn Cdr Benson could ask OC 32 Sqn if they could fit a round trip in on a Training Sortie? This would perhaps allow Alec's Wife to accompany him as well.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

I was thinking about 45 Sqn - if there are no ME pilots to train...

I think that the King Air is quite nice inside, if not as quick as a 125.

Duncs:ok:

[cazatou]

Duncs

You would need a rear crew member, properly trained in evacuation drills in the "unlikely event of an emergency", as well as the pilots. Given the age of the Pax it would be advisable that such a crew member was also well trained in first aid.

[Kreuger flap]

I think that the Station Commander and the PRO at Benson have done as much as they can. Using a Military aircraft to ferry a civilian to visit a Station would be a complete misappropriation of these assets. This would be akin to a Royal using a Chinook to go to a stag party. Of course that would never happen.

[cazatou]

KF

If you read my posts again you will note that I specifically suggested using Training Hours - which would be flown anyway. What I have suggested would be an ideal training sortie for new Cabin Staff as well as the Flight Crew.

The RAF in which I spent 31 years of my life was an RAF that was a "can do" Service where you looked for ways to do the job - not for obscure reasons that seemed to "possibly suggest" that there was some obscure "Health and Safety" regulation which might prohibit such a course of action.

Please enlighten me - how would you carry out the "Dams Raid" at 60 ft at night against a defended target whilst showing lights in the light of current "Health and Safety" legislation?

[davejb]

You'd have to go in quickly, while the German flak crews were still completing the paperwork for releasing the ammo to the gun crews....

[Kreuger flap]

Please enlighten me - how would you carry out the "Dams Raid" at 60 ft at night against a defended target whilst showing lights - in the light of current "Health and Safety" legislation?

Are you seriously comparing flying an old man to Benson with the Dambusters raids? In this day and age any such raid would be carried out using smart bombs.

Okay what would you do if the weather wasn't suitable to fly the sortie? Keep postponing the visit until it was suitable whilst keeping up a lot of valuable assets and people to facilitate one visit on standby?

The RAF in which I spent 31 years of my life was an RAF that was a "can do" Service where you looked for ways to do the job

Please don't presume that the RAF of today doesn't have a can do attitude as you insult those on operations today in Afghanistan.

[airborne_artist]

Benson had no trouble taking 15 spacies on a Merlin for a day, including a trip through the London heli-lanes, and some spacies from Hampshire were cabbied to Hendon and back in a Wokka not so long ago.

The Dark Blue seems to have a better understanding of how to read/operate within the rules. Perhaps they could help ;)

[Kreuger flap]

Well that is what happens on Air Cadet camps. Air Cadets go flying, just like they do on the AEF's or at the many gliding schools around the country.

Maybe you could contact the dark blue and ask for assistance.

[cazatou]

a a

I think "kreuger flap" is in the "Do you want the 5 minute argument or the 10 minute argument" mode. If you look at his posts it seems to always be the aggressive reaction no matter what has been said.

[PPRuNe Pop]

This is going WAY OFF topic gents. Please refrain.

[VIProds]

"You would need a rear crew member, properly trained in evacuation drills in the unlikely event of an emergency".


I have got the very person cazatou. In his time, Alec made a total of five crash landings, none of which were his fault & he walked away uninjured each time. You know about his Spitfire being hit by flak, over Brest. What I didn't know until I read his Log Book, was that the Spitfire was a complete "write off". He was rushed to Hospital, but was released uninjured & was flying the very next day.

Before he joined the PRU, he was posted to 224 Sqdn & did submarine hunting over the Atlantic in Hudsons. On one sortie, when he was loaded up with depth charges, Alec was just getting up to air speed when his port engine cut. He guided the Hudson off the runway so that the rest of the stream could take off.

No one had told him that they had dug a deep trench beside the runway to lay cables. The port wheel dropped into the trench, which spun the Hudson around, so that starboard wheel did likewise.

Alec looked round to tell the crew to bale out, but the aircraft was empty ! His comment was "they didn't stand on ceremonty". I don't blame them with live weapons on board.

[cazatou]

VIProds

Alec should patent his "good luck charm".

I hope that he makes it to Benson and I trust that the experience will go some way towards ameliorating the loss of his Personal Memorabilia. Please pass on my best wishes.

[JOE-FBS]

VIProds

I suspect that if you post an appeal for a lift in a light aircraft on the Private Flying area on Prune and / or in the GA Discussion section of the Flyer forum, you will be overwhelmed with offers from GA pilots at or near to Humberside. I am near Benson so at the wrong end of the journey.

[airpolice]

I'm surprised the flying club at Benson have not arranged to go and collect you guys.

[xenolith]

Air Police

And I'm surprised that you havn't offered to stump up the cost of the Benson Flying Club stepping up to the plate.

WTF does have to do with the Benson Flying Club?:ugh:

[ShyTorque]

I think that the Station Commander and the PRO at Benson have done as much as they can. Using a Military aircraft to ferry a civilian to visit a Station would be a complete misappropriation of these assets. This would be akin to a Royal using a Chinook to go to a stag party. Of course that would never happen.

All they've done so far is fail to find this old vet's property. I would think there would hardly be anyone (civvy or military) who would find reason to object to Stn Cdr RAF Benson using training hours to fetch this veteran. I'm surprised he hasn't offered this already.

(Even Colonel Gaddafi might have done this, and yet look how popular he is).

[cazatou]

ShyTorque

Thank you for your support.

I hope that this elderly Gentleman can be re-united with his lost memories but I feel that is a forlorn hope. The RAF should spare no endeavour to ensure that his attendance at the reunion is memorable.

[LookingNorth]

WTF does have to do with the Benson Flying Club?:ugh:

Seems to be a Benson-wide attitude, this.

[EdSett100]

Benson said that they could not supply air transport, but kindly offered to send a rail warrant.

Sounds like bollocks to me. Flying a WW2 spitfire pilot as a gesture of compensation is absolutely not a problem. It simply requires the Stn Cdr (or AOC) to auth it.

[xenolith]

Looking North

If you mean that everybody at Benson shares my view that its nothing to do with the Benson Flying Club then you would be right.

If however, you mean that the authorities at Benson couldn't give a toss about the stuff thats missing then I think that you are wrong.

If you feel that the authorities at Benson owe anybody who posts on this forum an explanation then, you would be absolutly wrong!

[cazatou]

xenolith

I would certainly expect that VIProds could reasonably, as Alec's Spokesman, expect to receive an explanation that he could pass on to his elderly friend.

[xenolith]

CAZ

He has, post #95 refers.

[cazatou]

xenolith

Go back and read that post again and work out how many times they expect that elderly Gentleman to change trains on his return journey and the length of time that he will have to travel each way. If his Wife accompanies him then the problem will be compounded.

The major reason that such a long return journey is being undertaken is that RAF Benson failed to look after precious relics that they had borrowed. It is incumbent on RAF Benson to make suitable travel arrangements for such an elderly couple and to ensure that their journey is as comfortable and stress free as possible.

Perhaps you should let the magma cool down?

[xenolith]

Caz,

It may not suit you but the Station Commander has, in my opinion, done all that can be reasonably expected of him under the circumstances.

Magma?????????

[cazatou]

Xenolith

Chambers Dictionary:-

Xenolith - " A fragment of rock of extraneous origin which has been incorporated in magma".

Now "Cazatou" was the most forward English outpost in SW France at the start of the Hundred Years War!! I like to maintain Traditions.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

xenolith,

Notwithstanding we may not have all the information, my opinion differs from yours. Obviously, you are entitled to your opinion; however, I am inclined to think that Alec deserves a little more than appears to have been offered.

Duncs:ok:

[xenolith]

Caz

Chambers........How very secondary modern! Now in the OED:-

Xenolith – “Stone or rock occurring in a system to which it does not belong"

OED was, I believe, the official RAF dictionary in your day; I too try to maintain traditions.:)

Enough........ please;)

Duncs

OK :ok:

[cazatou]

Xenolith

I was merely complying with the preferences of the Thread Moderator who has previously stated a preference for Chambers Dictionary.

[Without Care]

Caz,

Try 'merely complying' with the moderator's post #107.

WC

[VIProds]

Received a letter from John Howell OBE MP, who's constituancy covers RAF Benson. John says that he thinks that there is not much that he can do, but has written to RAF Benson. Our local MP has confirmed that he has received my e-mail, but as yet nothing else.

I have been 'phoning around the local flying clubs to see if anyone would take Alec & myself down to Benson, but without any luck.

Thanks to JOE-FBS suggestion, I have now started a new thread on the Private Flyer Forum & hope that this might bring some better success.

[Tankertrashnav]

Who was that footballer a few weeks ago who reckoned the troops should be paid as much as footballers? Perhaps he could put his hand in his pocket and spare about an hour's pay - that ought to cover return flights for Alec and his wife!

[NutLoose]

It may not suit you but the Station Commander has, in my opinion, done all that can be reasonably expected of him under the circumstances.



He is in a lose lose situation, this probably occured before he took the position, BUT to give a travel warrant to a 91 yr old and expect him to make his own way there........... even if a flight is not possible, can his own staff car and driver not do this. ?????? As a public relations exercise RAF Benson really are making themselves look a bunch of cnuts, and that is being polite...

Has the RAF got to such a low point? that a Group Captain running a Station can take a Pontius Pilate attitude to something his own station did and buy it off with a travel warrant??

Have some Ba**s Benson AND SORT IT! Shame on you, this is in the Public domain and you are just making yourselves look like prats........ :mad:

Rant over for now........ letters to every media source I can think of in hand! Let's see if that will get things moving.

To quote the "other thread" in the private flying


A few years ago a colleague and I flew a former Battle of Britain Hurricane Pilot and his wife to Benson for a similar trip. Ray had finished his war there as a Spitfire PRU Pilot. The staff at Benson did just about the minimum they could to remain courteous falling short of offering him lunch or any other form of hospitality. We all came away a little bit disappointed. It would appear that we civilians have greater regard for war veterans than the current RAF does.


:mad::mad::mad:

Edit..........

For the first time in my life, it makes me ashamed to say " I was in the RAF"

[xenolith]

Nut Loose, Air Police

You two are absolutely typical sanctimonious barrack room lawyers, gobbing off but doing nothing! Comfortable up there on Olympus is it?

There are no service flying assets at Benson that can reasonably be devoted to this cause, no matter how worthy

This issue has got as much to do with the Benson Flying Club as it has to do with you...NOTHING!

There is no such thing as a free flight!

As for getting the ‘snowdrops’ involved Air Police, I thought that we had covered that one. What have they got to offer? Nothing.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

xenolith,

I have already agreed that you are entitled to your position regarding this and that you believe has nothing to do with Benson Fg Club (I am inclined to agree) and that the stn has done all that it could to return Alec's stuff (I'm not sure about that one). Furthemore, the stn has offered Alec the opportunity to visit Benson (well done) but the distances involved make it difficult for Alec. The difficulty, as I see it, is that provision of Service transport (air in particular) is unlikely to pass 'The Sun' test. The issue is to what level the stn is prepared to go to (IMHO) right a wrong. Have they done enough? You, and possibly they, appear to think that they have reached an appropriate level.

Duncs:ok:

[Brian 48nav]

Re transport. Have you tried contacting one of the Lincolnshire branches of the Aircrew Association? There may be a member that regularly travels down south.

I know there is a retired Air Marshal up there who like me went to Camberley GS and possibly has connections still down south,he may help.

I believe one of my son's mates, ex-Red Arrows and now LHR based with Virgin,still lives near Cranwell. If you would like me to arrange contact through my son give me a PM.

PS another of son's mates (his best man in fact) is Staish at Northolt; it's possible something could be arranged through that avenue.

Good luck!

[St Johns Wort]

I have just picked up on this thread and the later part of it beggars the question "Has anyone spoken to the Benson Flying Club?"

Actually it’s a rhetorical question because I've just spoken to the Clubs OC and he hasn't got a clue about what’s been discussed on this forum.

He was slightly indisposed when I called as he was about to take a crucial top level ride on a ski lift; but his immediate response was very positive. He will have a look at it next week. That said he is in the process of handing over the reins of the club, so we shall see.

Standby

[BEagle]

Given that the Stn Cdr was prepared to cough up a return rail warrant, should anyone from Humberside be prepared to fly Alec and VIProds down for the day, could they at least expect a free refuel?

[VIProds]

I have just received an e-mail from a pilot based in Lincolnshire who has kindly offered to fly Alec & myself down to RAF Benson. I immediatly accepted his offer.

It was only then that I came onto PPRuNe & WOW!! Three pilots offering on the "Flyer" website & a further three on here. Many thanks for all your comments & suggestions, especially Moonym20, dstevens & The Grim EPR.

As I have previously said on another thread, aren't aviation people just the best.

[NutLoose]

As I have previously said on another thread, aren't aviation people just the best.

Except at RAF Benson :mad:

Good to hear it has been sorted, It is just a shame the RAF Benson couldn't sort something themselves....... really does leave them in a p*ss poor light..

xenolith I actually work in the Industry now and far from not doing anything, I had been approaching people I know to see if they could help.......

You should also re read the whole thread, if you take the time you will see your last post that he wants transport for Alec and HIMSELF. Why? Has he got a camera crew waiting, looking to put a nice ending to his film about Alec comments are Disgusting, early on VIProds has said he is travelling with him to act as his carer.... perhaps when you get out of your adolescent phase you to will realise that OAP's do require some looking after.... you know, without the likes of Alex..... you wouldn't have a job.... period

[BEagle]

VIProds, it may just have been a coincidence, but about 10 min before you received that I e-mail, I contacted someone at Kirmington, asking whether there was anyone who could help!

I hope that Alec has a great VIP day at Benson and that his precious historical artefacts can be found, so that he can be reunited with them.

Hopefully the Benson PRO will inform the local meeja?

[VIProds]

Sorry that you feel that way. My angle, as you say, is that Alec is a very good friend & a real Gentleman. I owe Alec & others that put their life on the line for our Country an enormous debt of gratitude. Alec was given a raw deal ten years ago, like many others that have commented on this thread, I was incensed at the shoddy treatment that he was afforded, so took up the banner on his behalf.

As for getting the MP's involved, one PPRuNe'r kindly suggested that I contact the MP who's constituancy covered RAF Benson & as nothing seemed to be progressing, that was a great idea so got me writing.

If you read back, it was RAF Benson's Commanding Officer that invited me to go with Alec.

The film is in the can, as they say, so there is no ulteria motive there. I have given a copy to Alec's family & the ex Wing Commander that interviewed him on film. Two have gone to the ACA archives at Elvington & our local Branch archives & finally, one has been sent to the UAV Company in New Zealand that are going to paint their replica Spitfire in PRU colours with Alec's aircraft number.

[LookingNorth]

Perhaps, xenolith, if you pointed out which one of the 2000 was the thieving scumbag scrote who has this brave man's photos etc. nobody would need to describe the Bensonites in collective terms as cnuts?

Your attitude is not going to dispel such generalisations, is it?

[xenolith]

Looking North

Alecs stuff went missing anything up to 10 years ago, it is far from certain that anybody stole it, let alone anyone currently on the station! Unless you have something to offer........ which I doubt.

[NutLoose]

Kreuger,

At the very least RAF Benson should institute a Unit Inquiry into what has happened and also institute and maintain a formal record of all items that have been loaned to the Unit. That record should then be subject to an annual audit.



Actually that makes a load of sense, see if they can find out what went wrong, then they can put the facility in place to prevent it happening again, and a record could simply be a book, digital or otherwise, with listings of what has been loaned, photos of the objects and their secure location.... Job Done, no more looking like a bunch of amateurs. Suprised all stations do not have a similar system in place.

[Tocsin]

If you just keep banging on and on people will lose interest. It just gets Boring.

Catz you say that Benson flying club should stump up the cost? So you expect the members of the club to pay? We haven't had any offer of assistance from you. Perhaps you could offer to pay for the hours required as like them it has nothing to do with you either.

The flight has been offered. RAF Benson are all a bunch of cnuts, everybody from the civvy cleaner up to the Station Commander and obviously they don't do a very good job and are a complete disgrace to the uniform they wear and have let the whole of the RAF down.

You really need to get this into perspective as to what is happening around the world.

Perhaps some of you need to get off of the outrage bus at the next stop and have a nice cup of tea to calm yourselves down. Maybe the Station Commander could offer to resign his Commission as a gesture of good will.

I AM NOW GOING TO JUMP _ON_ THE OUTRAGE BUS (capitals totally intended).

Kreuger Flap (and Xenolith) - I can only assume you are both defending your home turf of Benson from "attack" - laudable, if the attack is unjustified.

However, as a reader of this thread, I can only say that the conduct of personnel at Benson, in the past and now when held up to public view, is appalling. It cannot be defended, and should only be put right as far as possible, and with some humility. It should NEVER have got this far.

[4mastacker]

Actually that makes a load of sense, see if they can find out what went wrong, then they can put the facility in place to prevent it happening again, and a record could simply be a book, digital or otherwise, with listings of what has been loaned, photos of the objects and their secure location.... Job Done, no more looking like a bunch of amateurs. Suprised all stations do not have a similar system in place.How about something called 'The Property Book' for items loaned to either the Officers or WO/Sgts Mess. And if it's loaned to the station, how about something called 'The Inward Loan Register' and controlled by OC Supply. :ugh:

[NutLoose]

Hmmm xenolith............ why you seem to have the urge to rub yourself up against people like some prepubescent schoolboy is beyond me.. you do both yourself no favours, nor those of the RAF or RAF Benson............

There will, God willing, be a true Gentleman visiting Benson in the form of Alec, perhaps you may get the chance to meet the man and one can only hope that some of his qualities rub off on you...

[NutLoose]

Sigh......

[BEagle]

YouTube - Hangbag fighting old ladies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4aHrRocA3E)

[forget]

If anyone else wants to take a pop by way of having a purile last word feel free to PM me.

It's puerile - but I can't be bothered to PM you.

[Dengue_Dude]

Can we get this back to the 91 year old Spitfire?

It's now 2011 and the first prototype flew in March 1936 - correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that 75 years.

I suppose they could be talking about the pilot . . . :p

Back to reality, hope there is some resolution here, he thoroughly deserves that.

Just perhaps, he assumed today's RAF was like the one he used to be in. Sadly in this and so many other cases, it was a wrong assumption; completely understandable, but wrong.

It's a real shame.

[Odigron]

There is, in my opinion, a little too much in the way of aggressive posting going on, from all (both) sides. I would like to request that we all take a small breather and calm down.

I don't like the way that Alec or his property have been treated. I also don't like the abuse that RAF Benson's personnel have been subjected to in this thread.

Alec's property should have been looked after - it seems that it wasn't! I understand the posts that desire an inquiry to identify what went wrong, so that it might be prevented in the future, but, I don't fully comprehend the logic that blames RAF Benson, as a whole, for the loss. Taking that approach to its, in my view, logical conclusion would suggest that the Service and anyone in it, is to blame or that HM Forces and everyone in it is to blame; I guess if that was the case, then most of the posters on this thread are at fault - I'm sorry, but I don't buy that argument.

For ex members of the Service, please don't assume that the powers and freedoms available to Station Commanders in your day still exist today.

Alec fought for his country, there are personnel at RAF Benson that are doing the same right now - let's please not forget this fact or be abusive to either.

[PPRuNe Pop]

The nails (claws) of people using this thread to fight on their own have just been pulled. There will be more unless the topic of this thread is adhered to.

[yakker]

Odigron "seconded"

[Dengue_Dude]

Good one Pop, just now and again a bit of one-sided diplomacy is EXACTLY what is required.

[Shack37]

This would seem an appropriate date to push this thread back up a bit.

[SaddamsLoveChild]

Gents, as I understand it a hero left his stuff behind without getting a signature for some memorobilia with a probably over worked young Fg Off who was asked to run an event for which he ws not trained a few yeras ago, and now it cant be found a whole load of people are jumping on a bandwagon of bashing a Stn Cdr and his staffs who were not there when it happened.

People at Benson are fighting in Afgh and at any one time approx 80% of the stn are either returning from, preparing to deploy or are actually deployed - FACT. That this has happened was wrong, that the stn staffs have offerd some recompence is laudible but calling for the stn cdr to resign or a BOI shows the complete naievety of current service life by many posters on here. Benson were, it seems, at fault years ago, but give it a rest and let them get on with flying in afgh and Kenya, a National Stby Commitment, defending Puma 2, fighting off a RN snatch of Merlin and preparing for a sandy det at very short notice.

Let Alec and his chums have their day out, accept that the deed was done out of nothing but a mistake and get on with your lives.

[BEagle]

In 2002, Alec attended the 60th anniversary reunion of the PRU at RAF Benson & was asked if he would bring photographs of his Spitfires & his aerial reconnaissance pictures as well as press cuttings that he had saved, to be displayed at the event. After the reunion, when his items were not returned, he wrote to the Flt Sgt that was organising the event. He didn't get a response, so wrote to Benson's C.O. & again amazingly didn't receive a response.

He was asked to loan his memorabilia, then later queried its return. Neither the NCO who organised the event, nor the Stn Cdr replied.

Hardly a 'mistake'......

Sorry if you don't think that's something to be angry about; others clearly do.

[Tocsin]

Why? What is so special about today?



Sigh... :ugh:

Spitfire (pilot).

75th anniversary.

Google it...

[xenolith]

Forget it, the verdict of the Kangaroo Court is in, you wont deter this lynch mob.

[3 Point]

Hey Tocsin,

Was that a sigh for a Merlin??

Happy landings!

[NutLoose]

xenolith (http://www.pprune.org/members/334639-xenolith)

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Mold
Posts: 56


SaddamsLoveChild
Forget it, the verdict of the Kangaroo Court is in, you wont deter this lynch mob.


So much so you decided to continue to try baiting people by sending me a PM..

Sad little person...

Hence the sigh and leaving it alone, regardless, the one innocent party in all of this was Alec, he acted in good faith and was let down......

I do hope when he has had his trip, we hear back on him having a good day.

[Airborne Aircrew]

This thread has gone on for a while and got a bit "hot and heavy" in places... However, what has occurred is undeniable. A man, in good faith, lent his memorabilia to theRAF. The RAF, and specifically RAF Benson it seems, didn't care enough to do enough to protect that man's legacy. It is a sad reflection on the RAF that it cares so little about those who went before - and gave far more than most give now.

[VIProds]

Just to keep those of you that were following this thread updated. Alec & myself were flown from RAF Waddington to RAF Benson, last Friday. Our pilot Flt Lt G. Pike, kindly took the day off work & his C.O., Wg Cdr A. Pike was happy to carry out some of his duties while he was away. There was a Staff car waiting for us on arrival at Benson. It took us straight to Station Headquarters where the Officer Commanding Base Support Wing, Wg Cdr V. Pike was waiting to greet us at the main entrance, together with the Station Public Relations Officer, N. Pike.

We were in the Wg Cdr's office chatting for about an hour & the Wg Cdr seemed genuinely interested in Alec's experiences during the War. They had arranged for us to go to lunch, but before that Alec had an official photograph taken with the Wg Cdr in front of a blue Photo Reconnaissance Spitfire, displayed outside HQ.

It was arranged that the O.C. 78 Sqdn, Wg Cdr D. Pike (who was Acting Station Commander for the day), would join us for lunch & told us all about his Merlin's. After lunch, we were driven over to 78 Sqdn where the O.C. showed us his Merlin office.

We were then driven to Benson's Museum to meet the Curator, who was very keen to talk with Alec. While there, our pilot for the day recognized a photograph hanging on the wall, of some wartime aircrew planning a mission in the Op's room. He was able to tell the Curator that one of the airmen in the photo was his Uncle & he never returned from that mission.

I think that RAF Benson's personnel really did Alec proud. The present personnel had nothing to do with Alec's missing property & Alec would like to draw a line under it all. I know that he had a fantastic day & really enjoyed himself. I would like to thank our pilot, everyone at Benson for being so caring & everyone on PPRuNe that supported Alec, especially all the pilots that volunteered & were willing to give up their time to fly Alec down to Benson. As I have said on another thread, aren't aviation people a smashing bunch.

[TheWizard]

All's well that ends well.
So glad that Alec was so well hosted and enjoyed his day and the fact that HE now wants to draw a line under this should speak volumes
(not that some people on here would have any intention of retracting their scathing comments aimed at people who had absolutely nothing to do with the original loss.)
Well done to all the Pike family :D

[xenolith]

Wizard,

Seconded! So glad that Alec had a good day.

PS 'Dont tell 'em your name Pike'

[November4]

Bravo and glad Alec enjoyed the day...