Air Canada Losing C$$$ ?

[fliion]

In a interview on WSJ with Air Canada's CEO Calin Rovinescu he says on that Canada’s “outdated policies” around the aerospace industry are constraining economic growth.
Between airport rent, airport infrastructure, navigation fees and charges, Air Canada estimates that it would save about C$1 billion ($992m) if it was a US airline with the same volume of business.
In addition, AC sees increasingly Canadians driving across the border to Buffalo, to Plattsburgh, to Seattle to get on flights because they are cheaper.

(more)
Airlines losing customers to U.S.: Air Canada CEO

Airlines losing customers to U.S.: Air Canada CEO - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...-us-air-canada-ceo/article1797393/)

[White Knight]

Air Canada Losing C$$$ ?

You're surprised???????:confused:

[a345xxx]

Have they ever made money? I think the closest they ever got to having a chance was when they were nearly taken over by Richard Li the HK investor.

[Capt Krunch]

is this thread lost ? does it not belong on the Canadian Forum ?

there are many airlines in the world loosing money these days, thats not really news.
a tired old Canadian airline (Canada's only international 3 star brand) finds itself in the same boat as others:{.
it's a surprise it took them this long and I assume its only due to the fact that they operate in fear of any heathy competition, thus restricting the amount of airlines that are allowed in. not to mention restrictions on air carriers within the country itself i'm sure.
I hope for the sake of the pilots stuck within this flag ship that all works out for them in the end.

[Desertbannanas]

What a farce... you guys are cry babies on crack with distorted views of reality.

No healthy competition? Do I need to make a list of all the international carriers flying to Canada in comparison to the UAE? EY and EK are on that list! You lose that one. (newest member: Qatar Airways!)

Have any of the ME Airlines supported a decent defined contribution pension plan? NO ...you lose. how come? Dont you guys all whine about tho...don’t you?

Have any of the major ME Airlines ever been publicly owned? NO. You lose again.

Any of these ME countries had a Democracy? No. You lose again.

Do any of the ME countries enforce fair labor protections and immigration laws? NO.. you lose again.

And on and on and on...

Sorry. But you have lost the fair competition stress test.

CANADA WELCOMES fair and balanced competition. Unlike the UAE. (see again 2nd para to open your eyes)

[Oblaaspop]

Desert, here we go again my friend......

You quoted "No healthy competition? Do I need to make a list of all the international carriers flying to Canada in comparison to the UAE? EY and EK are on that list! You lose that one. (newest member: Qatar Airways!)"

and

"CANADA WELCOMES fair and balanced competition. Unlike the UAE. (see again 2nd para to open your eyes)"

Sorry (again) to prove you wrong, but a quick check on Wiki, shows that (not including Cargo or Subsidiary Airlines) Pearson currently has 47 Passenger Airlines serving it whilst Dubai has 109 Passenger Airlines serving it.......

YOU lose on that one, open YOUR eyes!:E

But as you have ably proven on many an occasion, you simply refuse to admit when you are wrong despite the overwhelming evidence, so I'm not holding my breath. PLEASE do your research before quoting nonsense:hmm:

[fatbus]

But to be fair how many of the 109 Airlines countries are within 3-4 hours of DXB and how many are with in the same range of YYZ. Are any of the 109 on the Black list. Why is the Defense Minister involved with commercial air service?

[Wizofoz]

Yes, but equally, how many of the 47 operating to Pearson are in range of DXB?

The UAE has an open skies policy, Canada doesn't.

[Wizofoz]

Point by point:-

You quoted "No healthy competition? Do I need to make a list of all the international carriers flying to Canada in comparison to the UAE? EY and EK are on that list! You lose that one. (newest member: Qatar Airways!)"



Covered above. Air Canada, West-Jet or whomever could, even now, operate to DXB or OMAA right now with no restriction or need of bilateral agreement- It's UAE Government policy.

Have any of the ME Airlines supported a decent defined contribution pension plan? NO ...you lose. how come? Dont you guys all whine about tho...don’t you?



Defined CONTRIBUTION? Yes, EK does. Defined BENEFIT? No. In 27 years of commercial flying I've never been in a defined benefit pension scheme. They are a dinosaur and have been for decades. British Airways have a 1 BILLION Pound hole in theirs, and most US pilots have lost most or all of theirs.

My retirement funds belong to me and no-one else. What happens to AC pension recipients if AC folds?

Have any of the major ME Airlines ever been publicly owned? NO. You lose again.



No. Why would they? Would the Canadian Government have sold Canadian Airlines if it had been a cash cow providing huge dividends to to Government? Unlike places like Canada, the ME can have PROFITABLE Government owned Airlines.

Any of these ME countries had a Democracy? No. You lose again.

What has the countries political system to do with the running of it's businesses? You won't find many citizens here upset with the system of government.


Do any of the ME countries enforce fair labor protections and immigration laws? NO.. you lose again.



You mean do we have illegals mowing our lawns and raising our babies? No.That seems to be endemic to North America. There is very little illegal immigration in the UAE. There are not the same workers rights as in western countries, and there is exploitation of labor.

This is sad and should be resisted.

By the way, where were your running shoes made? I'm sure YOU wouldn't benefit from exploited labor now, would you?

[Desertbannanas]

Come on guys! You guys work in this business yet know nothing about it do you? You drive me nuts!

First: The reason when you go to wiki or even IATA and find more airlines in the list for UAE is BECAUSE OF UAE’s open sky agreement. That means all these airlines have an ASA or “Air Service Agreement”. Because its open sky’s .. ie: free for all… all the airlines have the ASA! Air Canada is on that list…but then they don’t fly there do they? Idixxxxs. Fuxx!

Next: Your right. Defined Benefit. My typo. So are you saying defined contribution is better? DB is less prevalent BECAUSE its better. But tougher for the employer to maintain if they don’t manage it properly. If AC goes out of biz, every pilot gets their pension contributions in cash plus ROI. Its separate. Just the same as you. That’s the diff with the higher expense of a greater socio economic responsibility. That is the dif between the American pensions and Canadians. In the US in the past, if a company went bust, they can take the pension. Not so in Canada. So next you going to tell me its better to take benefits away from the employees now? Is that the meaning of your better competition? Because I sure see you guys complaining a lot on that ME forum of yours. Seems Hypocritical.

I make no apologies for the shoes I wear. I stand to support local business. You do as much as you can. My runners are made in Asia because that’s where they are ALL made. Not much choice. But the lions share of my shoes are made in Europe. As for politics and ownership… and socio-economic responsibility… well I don’t even need to talk about that with you anymore. The world would agree that Canada is the top of that list.

I am for liberalization, but based on the criteria below. Please read it.

1. Introductiuon At the invitation of IATA, representatives of 14 nation states and the EU met at the Agenda for Freedom Summit in Istanbul on the 25th and 26th of October 2008 to discuss the further liberalisation of the aviation industry. The participants agreed that further liberalisation of the international aviation market was generally desirable, bringing benefits to the aviation industry, to consumers and to the wider economy. In doing so, the participants were also mindful of the following issues:
The need to maintain leverage to address “doing business” issues.
The need to avoid overwhelming available infrastructure with increased traffic.
The special needs of developing nations, and those in transition, to fully open markets.
The need for a level playing field.
The dependency of remote island States on air transportation.
The impact on labour interests.
Issues of national pride and sovereignty.
None of these issues were considered insurmountable and to explore the effects of further liberalisation the participants asked IATA to develop studies on 12 countries to examine the impact of Air Service Agreement (ASA) liberalisation on the aviation industry, air passengers, and the wider economy, in each country.

There you go again gents. Right from our illustrious own IATA. (what are you quoting from wiki for Oblasspop? Don’t know our own industry resources?)

[White Knight]

The special needs of developing nations, and those in transition, to fully open markets.


Yep - you describe canada with it's lili-livered left-wing wet-prime minister very well:E:E:E:E

First: The reason when you go to wiki or even IATA and find more airlines in the list for UAE is BECAUSE OF UAE’s open sky agreement. That means all these airlines have an ASA or “Air Service Agreement”. Because its open sky’s .. ie: free for all… all the airlines have the ASA! Air Canada is on that list…but then they don’t fly there do they? Idixxxxs. Fuxx!



Umm no! These airlines do actually fly in and out of DXB. Come visit and have a look - and I'll buy you a beer:ok:

[Oblaaspop]

Desert, like I said, you just can't be told can you?

Air Canada IS NOT on the list of carriers flying to DXB and was not one of the 109 Airlines quoted on Wiki. If you bothered to have a look, it even goes on to mention the routes that the 109 Airlines operate from DXB.

What you really need to do buddy, is climb down from your high horse for just one moment and actually bother to do some research to back up your statements . It MIGHT actually make some of your arguments look credible. For now though most are just feeling sorry for you!

BTW, did you see that EK has just signed a codeshare/interline agreement with Jet Blue in the US? Looks like EK will now be able to get into the Canadian market via the back door in order to poach business from AC. Now if the Canadians had just granted a few extra flights per week to EK, I doubt this would have happened, but now AC needs to really worry as I hear that SEA, ORD, and others will be new routes for EK (funny how the Yanks don't see EK as a threat to their economy isn't it?).:ugh:

[Desertbannanas]

LOL...your right Oblasspop I can't be told. And nor can Canadians.

I have posted more than enough credible info for you... from all the credible sources. Almost every single post I make I back it up. If you can learn from it...so be it. What have you guys brought to the table in your argument? Almost nothing of value.

No Oblasspop, the reason there are 109 airlines on the list is because of the UAE's location to many shorthaul airlines. + the ASA, + the alliance factor. If just one airline in an alliance serves UAE, they all do (even if they don't actually fly there). And yes, I have been to both AUH and DXB very recently, so I have seen it.

IATA... ya... not much credibility there eh. Man do you guys need some education.

[Desertbannanas]

For your benefit Oblasspop. Extra after school classes since you were not paying attention in class:

From the report on Air Liberalization from IATA. IATA!!!!!!!!!! Yep... no research here... LOL. Oh man... keep this guy out of airplanes please!

1. Introductiuon At the invitation of IATA, representatives of 14 nation states and the EU met at the Agenda for Freedom Summit in Istanbul on the 25th and 26th of October 2008 to discuss the further liberalisation of the aviation industry. The participants agreed that further liberalisation of the international aviation market was generally desirable, bringing benefits to the aviation industry, to consumers and to the wider economy. In doing so, the participants were also mindful of the following issues:
The need to maintain leverage to address “doing business” issues.
The need to avoid overwhelming available infrastructure with increased traffic.
The special needs of developing nations, and those in transition, to fully open markets.
The need for a level playing field.
The dependency of remote island States on air transportation.
The impact on labour interests.
Issues of national pride and sovereignty.
None of these issues were considered insurmountable and to explore the effects of further liberalisation the participants asked IATA to develop studies on 12 countries to examine the impact of Air Service Agreement (ASA) liberalisation on the aviation industry, air passengers, and the wider economy, in each country.

[Willie Everlearn]

Personally, I think it's idiotic to compare a market like Canada with the UAE in terms of 'how many airlines serve' either country or specific city pairing.
The UAE is insignificant.
109 airlines provide work for DNATA and fuel sales. Not to mention the duty free shops. Most of it transient traffic and therefore the crux of the matter.
Some of the above comparisons are ridiculous.

We have enough service to the UAE from this country.
No matter what stats you wish to use.
No matter how you wish to slice it.

There is no level playing field.
There never was a level playing field.
There never will be a level playing field.
It's irrelevant.

Willie :ok:

[sec 3]

The UAE is insignificant. And canada is? When you live abroad, the only time you hear about canada is if it's about gay marriage or celine dion. If being a place where homosexuals can be married legally is significant, then i guess canada is.

[Willie Everlearn]

sec 3

I'm assuming that's a wind up so I won't bite.
If it's not a wind up....

:mad:

Willie

[Oblaaspop]

Willie, you are absolutely correct, it IS an irrelevant point arguing the toss over how many airlines serve which airports.

The problem is that our alleged aviation 'expert' Desert, used that very argument as his main point of attack, and now it seems wishes to change the subject..... (without admitting to his error - no change there then!)

Now, I'm sure you don't expect us to let that pass without comment do you? I know you wouldn't so why should I?:=

[Desertbannanas]

Oblasspop…your cosying up to Willie is sickening! But thanks for posting yet again, nothing of value.

BTW..I also agree, the comparison of how many airlines is not really relevant. My point was, if you look at the amount of International carriers serving Canada, its hard to say that Air Canada is protected by its gov’t. My original assertion was (for your benefit here Oblasspop..since your memory is really short):

“Canada welcomes fair and balanced competition”.

(for your benefit Oblasspop… please stay after class and re read my post quoting from the IATA Conference on Air Liberalization). I was only shooting you down(again) regarding your comparison from wiki. The point about ASA’s/alliances/and geographic location stands. Those are the reasons there are more airlines on your list.

Willie is making the point again, which has been my own as well. UAE is flow through, not a destination. Therefore current service is sufficient.

I think your getting all wound up again Oblass.. time to take another break.

Lesson on UAE economics: This morning in the UAE National:

“Etihad Airways is on track to report profitable earnings BEFORE ITS AIRCRAFT COSTS ARE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT…”

Someone please change the title of the thread. LOL

[pool]

Double standard 1:
The AC CEO is complaining about higher taxes on Canadian Airports, compared to the ones in the USA. He asks for reduction at home. Note that he does not cite unfair competition on behalf of the USA, nooooo, but he does on the same issue referring to the UAE.

Double standard 2:
He complains about Canadians crossing the border to Buffalo, Niagra and Seattle, to catch cheaper USA flights. Proof that the Canadian customer just wants cheaper flights and more connections, he doesn't give a hoot about AC if it hits his wallet, as the naive statement of the CEO sounds referring to EK/EY.

Double standard 3:
All critics of more rights for ME carriers state the unbalance of flight interest and trade, apparently Canada cannot get out as much as the ME carriers get. Now what about i.e. cars? How many cars does the UAE sell in Canada (zilch), compared to the Honda MRVs, Ford Edges and Flexes that are all manufactured in Canada? How many Canadian students get their training in the UAE in exchange for the many UAE students who pay big money for it? Just a few, its mainly some flight students trained at CAE, but again, that's a Canadian company, isn't it? How many UAE citizens work for Canadian companies, compared to the apparently 20000+ Canadians making money in the UAE?

Double standard 4:
Evoking treatment of people and working conditions as unfair advantage is walking a thin line when we consider a stroll through some Inuit villages, let alone any seal hunt ...


The trade unbalance Canada - UAE is so far off that any reference to exchange rights as inhibitor to grant more landing rights just evaporates.
To compete in an open sky environment it takes first of all a good product. AC might start there.
If you want to rectify some unbalance, let the CAA do an audit at the GCAA. By audit I mean a REAL one, not the FAA fig leaf. There's enough mud to be found to have some leverage about the number AND quality of ME aircraft flying into Canada. That would also benefit the Canadian customer.

I do not appreciate the way the UAE proceeds, but it's not by lowering yourself to the same level that you will earn any respect from non Canadians.

[single chime]

So, how many Canadians actually used that service (not counting ALTs, Cat As and Cs, SRCs and ZEDs)? From the flights I have taken, not too many...

[Wizofoz]

SC,

How did you know whether the other passengers on the flight were Canadian or not?

[single chime]

Their passports were not blue and made a stop at the immigration office...

[FJCruiser]

AC is head quartered in Montreal.French proctectionism is quite strong in this part of the world too. It may explain why EK is having a hard time with trying to open routes.

[halas]

I think Canada is on the right track here. F*ck 'em! If they want to come to Canada, it's by Canada's rules, because AC don't want to go there.
Simple enough.

Now look at what those Ozzies and Kiwi's have done. Let Emirates and all their mates in with a vengeance along with all the consequences.

NZ & QF are reporting good results over the most turbulent years for a long time. Now how do they do that with all these A-rab competitors? Buggered if l know?

But the worst is the spending these buggers do down-under!

The Melbourne Cup - Some has-been Horse race
Team New Zealand - Americas Cup folly for the wealthy
Wolgan Valley - Eco Resort in the Blue Mountains, see above.
Collingwood Football Club The team every non-Collingwood supporter loves to hate.
Western Force, Bottom of the Ladder Super 14 Rugby team.
Etihad Stadium, that's still referred to as Telstra Dome
Victorian Racing Club, for the mug punters.
Australian Jockeys Club, see above.
Sydney Symphony Orchestra, WTF?
Melbourne Symphony Orchestra, See above.
West Australian Symphony Orchestra, See above above!
Cricket Umpires.
Rugby Ref's.
Blah, blah, blah,.............

Plus the uncle, who runs the show, has a huge horse stud in the Hunter Valley, turns up for the magic millions (flash horse sale) every year and spends....millions!

And the Arab traffic to the Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast (Queensland, not BC!) is really upsetting everyone. Since the Japanese filled their wallets with moths, these robed up individuals are turning up en-mass and booking all the good places and driving up the prices for the locals, and during a recession!

So l say, good on ya Canada! Keep those A-rabs at bay and defend what is good, right and just in the western world, competition!

halas

[nolimitholdem]

Gee, all the cricket, rugby, and soccer (because that's what it's called in Canada) teams in Canada must be crying their eyes out! Well, maybe they would be if those sports were played or watched by anyone in significant numbers. But you knew that, right? Being an expert on Canada and all.

Here's an idea. Let the Emiratis run the UAE and let the Canadians run Canada. And the Aussies and the Kiwis can do whatever the f$ck they want in their own backyards too.

It's not that complicated. The UAE came asking and Canada said no. The Emiratis (with TC in the background) had a hissy fit and showed their true colours.

*yawn* Sounds about usual to me!

As much as I think it's WONDERFUL, all this concern for the financial well-being of a country you're not native of, I'm slightly suspicious of the motives...:rolleyes: But then I've lived in this ****hole for awhile now...

[halas]

I'm hearing you brother!

halas

[PacWest]

BTW, did you see that EK has just signed a codeshare/interline agreement with Jet Blue in the US? Looks like EK will now be able to get into the Canadian market via the back door in order to poach business from AC. Now if the Canadians had just granted a few extra flights per week to EK, I doubt this would have happened, but now AC needs to really worry as I hear that SEA, ORD, and others will be new routes for EK (funny how the Yanks don't see EK as a threat to their economy isn't it?).:ugh:

Again, for your information: Jet Blue does not fly to Canada, Nada, Nowhere --- nor will it in the future .... right -- got it -- ?

Need a repeat? Jet Blue does not ...

:ugh:

[CAYNINE]

Halas totally agree.....

Canada is still eons away from being competitive and providing service to the masses.

Oh I just hope and pray EK gets some close border US destinations.

Nolimit.... you may think the Ozzies are stupid.... but at least they aren't inept.

What they did by allowing competition was kick QF in the arse and made them smarter and wiser to the realities of running an airline, which by the way is profitable, and AC made how many millions in the last couple of years?:hmm:

[nolimitholdem]

hahaha yes, Canada is a backwaters, repressive regime all right. Not like those progressive, forward-thinkers running things in the Gulf! (circa 1512AD) :yuk: Guess we'll just have to struggle along as best we can, without umpteen flights a day to Saskatoon and "Fly Emirates!" plastered everywhere the eye can see. We'll try to manage.

I never said Ozzies were stupid nor inept. That's just a stereotype at EK. Kidding!! (-ish) But I am bemused by the interest shown in the affairs of a foreign country by those who are neither residents nor citizens. I mean, I'd have to try very hard to even generate enough energy to come up with an opinion of the UAE's bilateral agreement with Australia.

ZZZZZzzzzzzz

Nope, can't do it.

Like sec3 said, Canada is insignificant. So the UAE should just screw off and skim their beeeelions from somewhere else.

[CAYNINE]

You need to calm down or get help.

[halas]

The current year is 1431, not 1512. You give way too much credit for a modern and progressive society like this one.

Most couldn't give a rats arse about your thoughts, but l do brother!

I'm hearing you!

halas

[Oblaaspop]

Pac, indeed you are correct, Jet Blue doesn't YET fly to Canada, but is there anything to stop it? I don't think so!!! Get over it, AC is screwed with or without help from EK:ugh:

[Wizofoz]

Here's an idea. Let the Emiratis run the UAE and let the Canadians run Canada.

Does that include Emiratis having the right to decide who they extend expired military base agreements with, or does it only count when Canadians are not disadvantaged?

[Trader]

Wiz--who said anything about the base?? Not the Cdn gov't who simply took the high road and moved to Cyprus etc.

But lets be clear--had the situation been reversed there would have been cries of racism. Had another country disallowed a UAE flight with the senior gov't officials there would have been even loader cries and recriminations.

For the others--just a clarification regarding OPEN SKIES. The US does not have open skies, the Europeans don't have open skies, Australia doesn't have open skies. At least as defined by EK and some here where it means anyone can fly in.

Those counties NEGOTIATE open skies agreements with other countries. In other words they are bilateral agreements that allow complete access to the skies between countries. They are NOT open to everyone.

The UAE can boast about open skies because they essentially offer nothing! It is a 2 city country with almost no O&D traffic. It is all transit traffic moving through.

The Australian example is a non starter since Qantas has been only marginally affected by EK. EK hasn't stolen any of its US traffic (cause no one is going via EK to the US from Oz), EK hasn't affected Qantas' European traffic to any large degree because the Aussies offer a direct service (not EK's one stop service).

In contrast EK would be cannibalizing many of the Cdn routes that include one stop with partner airlines. It would kill several routes from marginal cities to Europe who currently have direct service because the 10-15% of pax that would be taken would make the route unprofitable. So you would have Cdn's losing a direct service!

In the end what matters is that in ANY free trade agreement both (all) sides have to be better off. The entire concept of free trade is that efficiencies gained offset the loses. In almost all cases free trade requires a wide range of free trade to make the concept work. ie. each nation produces those products which it had an advantage in and they trade--lowering costs for both countires. They BOTH benefit.

What would Canada get in an Open Skies agreement with the UAE?? They'd lose some direct services, possibly some jobs.......... What would they get??? Possibly cheaper tickets??

The claim that there would be a billion dollars in tourism and jobs is false!!! The tourists come one way or another. EK certainly would not build traffic to the country.

What jobs?? A few dozen at each airport!

I don't care one way or another. But there are arguments on both sides that hold weight. But by throwing a tantrum, refusing the use of the base, not permitting a gov't flight into the UAE etc the Emiratis have shown, again, that they have no idea when it comes to operating on the worlds stage.

[fatbus]

He said direct service not non stop.
Some of you guys need to chill.
EK has put pressure on QF to europe thats a fact

Trader , very good post !

[a345xxx]

FWIW I want Canada to stay the way it is. That is a nice quiet place, great health care, not too many cars, developed but not over developed, great climate and little if at all any pollution.All we need is another part of the world being over developed and raped under the guise of growth and development.

Why because maybe one day I can retire there! :)

[pool]

Trader, indeed a good post.

However we have to consider that trade does not only consist of air traffic rights, but includes it. Between the UAE and Canada there is a trade deficit of some magnitude which gives them a valuable argument.
40+ years back, when only some dinosaur American and European airlines had the equipment and capacity to run transcontinental flights, it was perfectly ok to swarm the Middle East and Asia with their product. They pretended to offer a service to these backward countries as to have their poor people profit of it. Now that suddenly the powers and such arguments are slightly reversed the West cries foul .....
It just reminds me of when the first Japanese cars arrived in the USA. Everybody laughed their butts off about these tin cans. A few years later they asked for contingencies and barriers as to protect their dinosaur manufacturers. With big success!!! Today Toyota and Honda play the fiddle and the USA had to save their dinosaurs with billions of taxpayers money. It would have been way cheaper for every citizen to let competition rule in the first place, as the outcome is the same every time. The exact same applies to AC. It can only protect itself by improving, not via denial of the globalization.

[nolimitholdem]

Your argument about positions being reversed is logically flawed in a few areas.

-If you want to argue about Air Canada, bringing up the history of American and European airlines is barely pertinent.
-The positions aren't "reversed", the Western countries still have the same capabilities they did in the past, the difference is that the ME carriers and others also have the same hardware. Bear in mind that before those evil exploiters came with their DC8's, there was NO service to these places.
-The UAE is free to "protect" their skies in the same way Canada does. And they do, they just use different tactics. Canada refuses to amend a bilateral agreement. The UAE tried to use a military base as leverage to increase it's airlines presence overseas and then had a childish tantrum when it didn't work.


Wiz,

Ironically, you make my point perfectly re: the base. There was an agreement in place, which had the provision to evict Canada on 30 days notice, which was exercised. Guess what? Canada complied and simply moved. So yes, the UAE does have the right to control their territory, and so does Canada. Both have exercised that right. It seems the UAE approach of blackmail plus a hissy fit is more acceptable to you?

As usual, an eloquent rebuttal from Trader. Excellent! :D

Still curious as to why it seems to be mainly non-Canadians who feel so passionately about AC and EK...weird.

[Desertbannanas]

I also agree... Trader hit it on the money. Well said.


Ps: International Herald Tribune today:

"Dubai and its state controlled companies are grappling to service debt that Barclay's Capital estimated in a Sept report to toal about 112 billion - equal too or more than 140% of its GDP. they amassed the loans during years of rapid growth in the property and tourism industries".

[halas]

In contrast EK would be cannibalizing (sic) many of the Cdn routes that include one stop with partner airlines.
That is the issue. Star alliance does not like EK , EY, QR etc.

This is Star Alliance using Air Canada and the Canadian government to fight it's war against what it sees as a threat. Kudos Star Alliance!

Exactly what routes would any of the gulf carriers cannibalise from Air Canada? None!

From the the Star Alliance? A lot! In particular - Lufthansa.

Who is calling the shots here?

EK hasn't affected Qantas' European traffic to any large degree because the Aussies offer a direct service (not EK's one stop service).

This is known as the the "Kangaroo Route", and through the Oneworld alliance is serviced by QANTAS, Cathay and BA.
This used to be a major bread winner for QF.
QF used have many destinations in Europe. Now they have several Heathrow and a few Frankfurt flights each week.
All traffic must go through LHR as BA is a leading Oneworld member and call's the shots.
And QF flights go through SIN or BKK.

The gulf carriers are hurting them, as they have to offer two and three stop flights from Oz to Europe. EK et al, one stop to most popular destinations, and growing.

EK hasn't stolen any of its US traffic (cause no one is going via EK to the US from Oz)

There is good traffic from Oz to JFK on EK

What jobs?? A few dozen at each airport!
The job count increases with exposure and frequency. Reservations, Skywards, Cargo, Sales, Marketing, Airport + admin.

Not defending the ME carriers. Just high-lighting the case for the positive.

I still agree with the Canuks though. I just like winding them up! ;)

halas

[Trader]

Good --seems we ll agree :)

Pool---There may be a trade deficit between the two countries.... but so what? This is not abnormal, especially with a small country like the UAE which produces almost nothing (other than oil, which to my knowledge, Canada does not import from the UAE).

halas -- a few AC routes would be affected. Calgary-Frankfurt as one example. If even a portion of the 10-20% of pax that continue on via LH to India go via EK then Calgary loses a DIRECT route to Europe. Not only does AC lose but so do the pax out of Calgary.

The question becomes---do any gains by allowing EK in offset the loses! That is a question that is bloody difficult to answer!

[555orange]

Ya Trader.

This is the main point that many of the ME guys don't get or don't want to get. Emirates comes out with this report of increase biz to Canada, but its entirely one sided. What... They didn't think Canada and Star were going to have a close look at it and also see what the impact would be??? I don't believe anyone was really saying no in entirety to Emirates until the military base thing... there was always room for business and negotiations. Perhaps some deals. But man...just say no for now and you get guys who's heads explode over there as well as some on this forum. Really... they made the bed for QR themselves.

[pool]

Trader

There may be a trade deficit between the two countries.... but so what?It could be somewhat balanced with what the other party can offer: Services. Basically that's what trade is all about, isn't it?
a few AC routes would be affectedAnd now this is what competition is all about! One gains, the other one loses, ain't it so?

Nolimit is so utterly surprised that non-Canadians take interest in these matters. Well, we call that a cosmopolitan interest in a globalized world that puts free trade and competition on its banner. That's the reason for our interest and criticism of Canada who seemingly wants to avoid it once it works against it.
They are not alone. Take Etisalat, the cartel with du and the VOIP scam, it's the best example of what this part of the world thinks of free competition. At least give us the credit that we have criticized this and other crooks in this region ad nauseam, and I'm not a UAE citizen ....

[greensystem]

The whole thing has become a bit childish. If the consumer in Canada saves money and time, they will probably dump their savings into other areas of the Canadian economy (cars, etc) and the the economy benefits anyways. Let the routes happen. Air Canada has no intention of doing the routes and there is a market to develop. That is what will enhance aviation, not protectionism. 2 cents.....:D

[halas]

[QUOTE]If even a portion of the 10-20% of pax that continue on via LH to India go via EK then Calgary loses a DIRECT route to Europe/QUOTE]

How would they loose a service? If AC match the price of any other connecting combination, they will loose nothing at all.
Every other alliance would offer a similar connecting flight at much the same price.

But as you say without the LH connections, then 10-20% (your figures) of the punters would not fly AC from Calgary to Frankfurt.

If you look at some of the connections, which l don't, but was brought to my attention, there are many punters travelling with EK to Canada via IAH, LAX & SFO because they can't get a flight in or out of Canada. Even after travelling over it for three hours+.

The ideal is competition on any route. Star alliance wants none of that if they can help it.

Use the scare tactics of a loss of service to Frankfurt (never happen!) with AC, as those pricks in the middle east can offer one stop anywhere to anywhere.

Keep the bastards honest!

halas

[White Knight]

Most couldn't give a rats arse about your thoughts, but l do brother!

I'm hearing you!

halas

Some kind of gay love-in going on here:*:*:\

Anyway - what is all this defence of a w@nked out company like AC that serves no-ones interests? All AC does is drain the pockets of the Canuck taxpayer...