Flying instructor rating?

[Aspiring Pilot Alex]

Hi guys I’m new to this forum and I just wanted to ask a few quick questions.
I am 21 years of age and I’m currently doing my PPL training and as of now have 23.4 hours. I initially wanted to become an airline pilot as that has been my childhood dream however, I have fell in love with flying small aircraft and would love to have a few years (5-6) instructing. I’m aware that an instructor’s salary isn’t the best in the world but I’m purely in it for the love of flying. I am training via the modular route as this fits in with my university life and my part time job. I have talked with a few people I know about becoming a flying instructor and some say you need this license and some say you need that. Can I ask what licenses and ratings you need to become a PPL instructor? All answers will be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Alex

['India-Mike]

There have been a number of threads on this so if you do a search you'll find more than I can tell you.

To instruct you need an FI rating. To get the FI rating you need to take a 30 hour course. Before you start the course you need a minimum number of hours and to have demonstrated CPL-level knowledge, usually interpreted as having passed the 9 CPL or 14 ATPL exams.

To get paid for instruction you'll need a commercial licence (CPL) and a class 1 medical. Again the exam requirements as above, and once again a minimum number of hours.

I do it part-time but still manage about 200 hours a year. I could never live off PPL instruction full-time!

Good luck

[Mr Grimsdale]

I seem to recall that if you pass the 14 ATPL exams and then get the Instructor Rating the ATPL exam passes are fixed in stone. So that avoids having to complete the ME/IR (if that's your intention) within 3 years of the final exam pass.

Feel free to correct if I'm wrong!

[Torque Tonight]

I’m purely in it for the love of flying

Unfortunately the love of flying doesn't pay the bills or put a roof over your head, especially just after forking out for a CPL and FI rating. Most professional pilots will have been through a phase where buying a packet of crisps or a cup of coffee is a luxury that they can maybe do without. At your stage your belief is a common one but be aware that it may change. The FI jobs market isn't exactly short of pilots either. I considered it but decided that I probably wouldn't get a return on my investment.

[Aspiring Pilot Alex]

Thanks for the replies guys. I already have my class 1 medical (got it before i started training). Im lucky enough to have parents that are paying for my instruction so replenishing money isn't an issue. Thanks Mr Grimsdale I didn't realise the ATPL exams had a time restriction.

Many thanks guys much appreciated, :ok:

Alex

['India-Mike]

ATPLs do indeed have a time restriction - 3 years from the end of the month that the last pass was achieved.

Their validity expires if the CPL and the IR aren't achieved within this time period. I don't think that the FI rating has any role to play in this - but I could be wrong.

[Whopity]

So that avoids having to complete the ME/IR (if that's your intention) within 3 years of the final exam pass.

Feel free to correct if I'm wrong!Yes you are wrong! The 3 year validity of the exams to obtain a CPL and an IR is totally seperate from the requirement to have demonstrated CPL knowledge, which once done is valid for entry to a FI course without time restriction. Having an FI rating does not freeze or have any influence on the validity of any exams you have taken.

To get paid for instruction you'll need a commercial licence (CPL) and a class 1 medical.Under current rules, but after April 2012 you will be able to be remunerated for flight instruction as the holder of a PPL with an FI rating and a Class 2 medical.

[stupix]

"Under current rules, but after April 2012 you will be able to be remunerated for flight instruction as the holder of a PPL with an FI rating and a Class 2 medical."
can I ask where you get this information ? I have heard the same thing but can't find it published.

[Ryan5252]

Under current rules, but after April 2012 you will be able to be remunerated for flight instruction as the holder of a PPL with an FI rating and a Class 2 medical.

But one would surely need to do the ATPL/CPL exams to enroll on a FI course in the first place?

[Red Leader]

Seems like it is proposed by EASA that you will no longer need to have passed the CPL exams to get an FI rating. The CAA not too happy about this proposal - they comment:

"Training and qualification standards for instructors and examiners

The UK CAA is very concerned that the standards set out in Part FCL 1.015, and especially the detailed training requirements of the AMC to FCL 1.015 do not define sufficiently high training and qualification standards for instructors and examiners."

See http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20090331SpecialBulletin1.pdf

and https://www.cirrus147.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=399&Itemid=1000198

[Whopity]

I have heard the same thing but can't find it published. Try here (http://www.easa.europa.eu/ws_prod/r/doc/NPA/NPA%202008-17b.pdf)SECTION 2
Specific requirements for the PPL aeroplanes PPL(A)
FCL.205.A PPL(A) Privileges
(a) The privileges of the holder of a PPL(A) are to act without remuneration as pilot in command or copilot of aeroplanes engaged in non commercial operations.
(b) Notwithstanding the paragraph above, the holder of a PPL(A) may receive remuneration for the provision of flight instruction for the LPL(A) or the PPL(A).
But one would surely need to do the ATPL/CPL exams to enroll on a FI course in the first place? Yes. It is a requirement of ICAO Annex 1Seems like it is proposed by EASA that you will no longer need to have passed the CPL exams to get an FI rating.This proposal was thrown out following the first NPA consultation in 2009.

Good site for Eurosceptics here: (http://www.avaaz.org/en/eu_citizens_initiative/?vl)

[Janu]

Class 1: PPL: Night rating: 100Hrs PIC - 150Hrs TT: 14 ATPL's: CPL: Flight Instructor.

The Flight Instructor rating consists of 30Hrs flying and 125Hrs GS of which 40Hrs can be self study.

[Unusual Attitude]

"Class 1: PPL: Night rating: 100Hrs PIC - 150Hrs TT: 14 ATPL's: CPL: Flight Instructor."

Problem is you then still have to do your IR within 3 years or you will lose your ATPL credits. Lose those and even though you have a CPL you will still have to redo all 14 exams to gain a Frozen ATPL once you add an IR.

Having a CPL and expired ATPL theory (after 3 years) and then redoing only the 7 IR exams and adding an IR will give you a CPL/IR but not a Frozen ATPL and therefore no Multicrew flying / Airline work.....crazy stuff eh....!

[Whopity]

and then redoing only the 7 IR exams and adding an IR will give you a CPL/IR but not a Frozen ATPLBut there is no such thing as a Frozen ATPL; it is a Myth! If you have a CPL/IR (ME) and have pased the ATPL exams and completed an MCC Course then you can obtain a MP Type Rating. JAR-FCL1.250 See also:JAR–FCL 1.495 Acceptance period
(a) A pass in the theoretical knowledge
examinations given in accordance with JAR–FCL
1.490 will be accepted for the grant of the
CPL(A) or IR(A) during the 36 months from the
date of gaining a Pass in all the required
examination papers.
(b) Provided that an IR(A) is obtained in
accordance with (a) above, a pass in the
ATPL(A) theoretical knowledge examination will
remain valid for a period of 7 years from the last
validity date of the IR(A) entered in the CPL(A)
for the issuance of an ATPL(A).
(c) A pass in the ATPL(A) theoretical
knowledge examination will remain valid for a
period of 7 years from the last validity date of a
type rating entered in a F/E licence.

[Unusual Attitude]

The difference between a CPL/IR and a 'Frozen ATPL' is basically having the ATPL theory considered as remaining 'valid'.

So as long as you added an IR to yor CPL within the 36 months of passing your exams your ATPL theory remains 'valid' for upto 7 years from your last IR renewal.

Not adding an IR to your CPL within 36 months of passing your ATPL's means you lose ALL your ATPL theory, even the CPL part despite actually holding a CPL, your basically back to the begining the same as a PPL.
To regain ALL the ATPL theory 'validity' you have to sit all 14 exams again (actually thats a lie, its 13 exams as they grant you VFR coms for holding a CPL)
Now logic would dictate that since you already hold a CPL there should be some sort of upgrade route to Frozen ATPL allowing you to only do the IR exams but this is not the case. You can of course still do just the 7 IR exams and add an IR to your CPL but you still wont have a Frozen ATPL, merely a CPL/IR as you still need to redo the CPL exams also to make them valid once again.

So whats the problem with just having a CPL/IR instead of a Frozen ATPL you might ask if its just some burecratic wording regarding theoretical knowledge validity ?

Well unfortunately there is reference made in LASORS (section F4.1 (d)) about adding a Multi Crew Type to your licence stating one requirement to "have a valid pass in the professional flight crew examinations at ATPL level". The killer here is not merely having "demonstrated knowledge to ATPL level" but to actually having "a Valid pass", thats the difference, the CAA will consider you pass 'invalid' if you've not done everyhting within the 36months etc.

Having been one of those who went out of the 36 months from gaining the CPL this is something I went back and forth to the CAA with numerous times to no avail. There is no upgrade route from CPL to Frozen ATPL and JAA have no intention of creating one, the only way to do it is resit all 14 exams all over again.

Now things might change under EASA but I've not seen / heard anything yet unless anyone else has heard different ?

[mykul10]

Just a couple of missed points. A min of 200hours TTis required before starting the course, including 100 PIC if CPL is held or 150 PIC if PPL is held.

[Whopity]

Well unfortunately there is reference made in LASORS (section F4.1 (d)) about adding a Multi Crew Type to your licence stating one requirement to "have a valid pass in the professional flight crew examinations at ATPL level". The word Valid is NOT mentionedd) have passed the professional flight crew examinations at ATPL level.They may well make you resit all 14 exams before issuing you with an ATPL, but there is nothing in JAR-FCL to prevent you completing a MPA Type Rating.

[Unusual Attitude]

Odd? Which version of Lasors are you looking at? 2008 definately says "valid", not seen the 2010 yet though.

I was however specifically told by the CAA in writing that if I applied to add a multicrew type to my Cpl without 'Valid' ATPL theory then my application would be rejected. It was a few years ago now though so perhaps it's changed in the 2010 Lasors?

[Whopity]

The online 2008 Version. I have however found the wording you describe but it is not to be found in JAR-FCL. You can put a MP Type Rating on a PPL! Albeit ATPL level knowledge would be required but there is no mention of any validity period in such a case.

[Unusual Attitude]

Now thats very interesting, that being the case then there is no longer any need to retain 'Valid' ATPL's unless I've missed something. Only problem would actually come when you wanted to upgrade your CPL to an ATPL when you had attained the hours.

[BillieBob]

Only problem would actually come when you wanted to upgrade your CPL to an ATPL But, to get the MPA type rating in the first place, you must have held a valid MEIR so where's the problem?

[max_continuous]

Just a couple of missed points. A min of 200hours TTis required before starting the course, including 100 PIC if CPL is held or 150 PIC if PPL is held.

I believe that this requirement has now been replaced with a requirement for either a CPL or 200 hrs TT and 150 PIC for PPL holders.

I have been involved in a number of email exchanges regarding these requirements and this is my understanding of LASORS 2008 (Section H1.2[c]), which seems to be borne out by the requirments listed by a number of, but not all, FTOs' entry requirements.

[madlandrover]

That would be in line with the existing requirements to issue a CPL from a modular course - ie 200TT inc 100 PIC, so no real changes there.

[max_continuous]

Yes indeed I can see that.

The one change that appears in the current regulations is to allow CPL holders from integrated courses (yes, that includes me and I have no intention of having that debate) to commence the FI course without spending additional funds burning more holes in the sky and allow certain FTOs to feed their ex-students into the course.

Personally I have set about trying to raise my total by doing some structured flying but if I can shave a few hours off my plan and save some cash I am not going to complain.

[madlandrover]

It is indeed a sensible change from the integrated point of view - it looks at the qualifications gained rather than some small differences in experience levels. Bearing in mind the content of the FI course it shouldn't make any real difference anyway, the output should be the same from a good FI course!