Logging IF time in 'JAR Format' logbook?

[Simon150]

I was wondering how people log IF (sole reference) time in the JAR standard logbook which only has an entry column for IFR time?

I think my logbook is a pooleys profession style one, although as I don't have it to hand, I can't be sure.

It's also a bit of a pain that you can't tot up SE and ME time independantly which you used to be able to do in my old PPL logbook.

I can't see a neat way to do it? Any ideas?

cheers all

[Genghis the Engineer]

Buy a different logbook?

My old style Pooleys professional pilots logbook, which I believe they still sell, would allow these things.

Or go electronic (either as well, or instead I favour "as well") then you should be able to output whatever you like.

G

[Whopity]

Ruler and pencil, draw another column or rename one you don't use.

[DFC]

I was wondering how people log IF (sole reference) time in the JAR standard logbook which only has an entry column for IFR time?




If you follow the acceptable means of compliance (AMC) as published by the JAA then you will record sole reference to instruments time in the Remarks part of each entry.

Most of the JAA style logbooks have a section for recording monthly and annual totals in the back. If you record the monthly piston hours separate from the single engine stuff etc then even if you fly a lot there should not be that much work at the end of each month and you can check how long you have before running out of the 3 take-off and landings requirement.

The recording of instrument time is quite an important thing for student logbooks after the latest CAA note about logging instrument time on courses.

[Simon150]

DFC - great answer thanks.

My logbook is actually a Jepp that is JAR-FCL 1.080 compliant so I didn't think I would have had to buy an 'old standard' logbook to remain compliant.

I haven't had it long and never saw the section at the back. Explains it all.

As it happens, it was the recent circular on student IR flight time that prompted me to check that I was fully compliabnt.

cheers

[FormationFlyer]

I have the Pooley's JAR-FCL logbook.
Column 11 Other Flying has a section purely for IF (sole ref). Whereas IFR is under column 9.

The column numberings IIRC come straight from JAR-FCL AMC.

I used to have the Jepp logbook and when JAR came in I moved to the Pooley's books - I havent the Jepp one which is compliant - Hope you got it sorted satisfactorily.

[Just want to fly]

I have a question regarding the 'instrument' column of my logbook:

In the instrument column of my logbook I record the total time spent airborne if I have been flying on an IFR flight plan. The flight times column is 'blocks off' to 'blocks on' and is usually ten to fifteen minutes longer. I believe this is the correct way to record JAA instrument time. I am aware of the differences in FAA and JAA instrument time.

My question is what do I log when PNF or MP? Do I log all airborne IFR time regardless of my operating capacity?

I usually fly as PIC but I am only Handling Pilot/Pilot Flying 50% of the time. I currently log every IFR flight as instrument time but is this correct?

[Whopity]

Article 79(3) The information recorded in accordance with paragraph (2) must include—

(d) information about any special conditions under which the flight was conducted, including night flying and instrument flyingSo simply writing IFR by the flight meets the requirement to record information!

[Big_Buddha36]

look at the Jeppesen FAA professional logbook. it has a far better breakdown of IF flying times - Sim/Actual/simulator

2 blank cols are there to log time out/time in (JAR'd) and would stop trawling through the comments when a breakdown is needed

BB

[Genghis the Engineer]

I have a question regarding the 'instrument' column of my logbook:

In the instrument column of my logbook I record the total time spent airborne if I have been flying on an IFR flight plan. The flight times column is 'blocks off' to 'blocks on' and is usually ten to fifteen minutes longer. I believe this is the correct way to record JAA instrument time. I am aware of the differences in FAA and JAA instrument time.

My question is what do I log when PNF or MP? Do I log all airborne IFR time regardless of my operating capacity?

I usually fly as PIC but I am only Handling Pilot/Pilot Flying 50% of the time. I currently log every IFR flight as instrument time but is this correct?

Interesting point and you make me worry I'm doing it all wrong!

I log time by sole reference to instruments, and use a spare column for IF/sim time. I've never logged time IFR as such, if that's in VMC. Am I in error there?

G

[Whopity]

Unless you want to be a stand alone IRI, the time is of no use for anything so you can do what you like. JAR FCL 1.080 states:* A pilot may log as instrument flight
time only that time during which he
operates the aircraft solely by reference
to instruments, under actual or
simulated instrument flight conditions.Note IFC not IFR!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Thanks Whopity, looks like I've been doing it right after all.

Me I log all sorts of stuff (tailwheel, instructor, class of microlight, test flying...) because it's amazing how many times somebody asks these sort of questions for the sort of non-standard flying that I tend to do. Sooner or later, somebody will want my time by sole reference to instruments, and if they don't, it's interesting to me.

The advantage of an Excel based logbook of course, is that I'm not limited to number of columns.

G

[Whopity]

It is after all a personal log book and from time you have occasion to look back and that's when the detail comes in useful. So long as you meet the legal requirement which is quite simple, the rest is up to you. I am pleased to see that under EASA the CAA will still decide what we log in the UK.

[FlyingStone]

Whopity, I know you know JAR FCL better than most of us, but still, it's nice to give a little bigger citation of it - and then it starts to make sense:


JAR FCL 1.080
.....
(b) The record shall contain the following
information:
....
(4) Pilot function:
(i) Pilot-in-command (including solo, SPIC, PICUS time)
(ii) Co-pilot
(iii) Dual
(iv) Flight instructor / Flight
examiner
(v) A remarks column will be
provided to give details of specific
functions e.g. SPIC, PICUS, instrument
flight time*, etc.
* A pilot may log as instrument flight
time only that time during which he
operates the aircraft solely by reference
to instruments, under actual or
simulated instrument flight conditions.
(5) Operational conditions:
(i) Night
(ii) IFR


As I understand it, the JAR loogbok requires:
a) remarks column in which you may log instrument (actual/simulated) flight time, if you wish to do so
b) IFR and night columns (operational conditions) in which you log as appropriate - flight at night and flight according to IFR (which - last time I checked - stands for Instrument Flight Rules, not Instrument Meteorological Conditions)

I agree - you may log whatever you wish, the minimum is written in JAR (or any country-specific document that superseeds it), the rest is up to the owner of the logbook. Personally, I write the minimum required in the actual logbook, but the details go to electronic (Excel) logbook for easier data manipulation if/when required.

[Whopity]

I deliberately chose not to include all of the citation because JAR-FCL1.080 is not law and never has been. The logging requirements in the UK are confined to those listed in Art 79 which are similar but different.

The JAA have offered a definition of Instrument Flight Time (IFT) within 1.080, but then use undefined phrases such as IFC to qualify IFT. Elsewhere, they base certain qualifications on hours in accordance with IFR, something nobody logs and hence the reason for the original question. One can only conclude that the authors had no fundamental understanding of the IFR, and assumed that IFR-IFT and IFC (IMC) are inextricably linked. The concept of IFR in VMC is alien to them.