Jaguars at Cranwell.

[snapper1]

Just an interested civvy. Can anyone please tell me why there were three very smart looking Jaguars lined up just by the hangars at Cranwell around mid day today?

[XV410]

Post SDSR, we have had to bring them back into service:O

Actually they are used in the training programme for Engineering Officers at Cranwell, much like the Jags at Cosford for the trainees to work on.

[kharmael]

Very nice looking aircraft they are too!

http://img602.imageshack.us/img602/337/1714045.jpg

[snapper1]

Thanks for the info and the excellent photo. Makes you want to weep though dosen't it?

[The Helpful Stacker]

What level of servicing do the Jags require for their ground instruction role?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Dontchaknow squadron stores has been LEANed away? Go get your own C-stores.

[newt]

So te RAF can afford this and not keep the Harrier in service until the new carrier comes on stream!!!!!!!!

Please nobody let the FAA know!! They will have a field day!!:ugh:

[Beancountercymru]

Why not? They are hiding Sea Harriers at Culdrose. Two can play at that game

[Pontius Navigator]

That the Jag remained in service for 30 years or so say something for the design.

[Red Line Entry]

Newt,

Please tell us that you are kidding. Or else explain what unreasonable costs you think are being incurred here? Bear in mind the aircraft are not airworthy.

[newt]

No I'm not kidding!! And I'm sure they were fully airworthy when they landed at Cranwell!

[Old-Duffer]

............. fully airworthy when the flew into Cranwell - I don't think I need to explain why!!!

The Jaguars are at Cranwell to provide realistic training in aircraft handling and maintenance procedures and processes for the junior engineer officers undergoing their initial engineering officers training, shortly after being commissioned.

Part of that training involves line operations and so the aircraft are brought out, prepared and taxyed etc. They are maintained to a schedule appropriate for their safe operation on the ground but are not 'fit for flight'. They are amongst the more sophisticated (although older generation) aircraft that the RAF had surplus and they replaced (I think) some Jet Provosts.

Another batch of Jaguars, retired towards the fleet's end of service in about 2007, were flown to RAF Cosford where they provide maintenance training for non commissioned engineering tradesmen/women.

A problem with using 'real' aircraft is that somebody has deliberately put a fault into the aircraft system, so that somebody else can diagnose and sort it out. There are now four specially designed and built synthetic aircraft at Cosford which can be 'broken' using a computer based system. The trainees then diagnose and solve the problem without the time delays and other problems which occur when you 'break' an aircraft which is meant to be serviceable.

I don't think newt needs to worry about the FAA - how do you think they train their aircraft artificers etc???

O-D

PS I used to run the RAF's Jaguar support organisation - great aircraft in so many ways - just cast back to what it did in Gulf War I.

[Toddington Ted]

For the spotters, we also have a "raspberry ripple" Jaguar T2 from Boscombe down in the hangar which will eventually takes its place in the training scheme at DCAE Cranwell. I presume it will be painted black too in due course. Funny how these posts about jaguars at Cranwell always surface when Term 3 testing takes place!
For the record, these aircraft replaced Hawker Hunters (mainly 2 seaters) some of which were purchased by people with the vision and money I'd like to have and flew them out in some cases - after some work of course!

[Llademos]

Old-Duffer

When I did EOT1 (as it was then called) we had Hunters - days of fitting the gun, asking the person with the longest arm to put the starter cartridge in and playing with AVPIN!

As an ex (chopped) the highlight was the ocassional taxi ride in them with the instructors. Just a pity I never flew in one ...

[RAFEngO74to09]

When I did IEC (the predecessor of EOT), we had a motley assortment of aircraft which included a prototype Lightning, Canberra B(I)8, Sea Vixen FAW2 and Whirlwind HAR10. Highlights for me were doing engine ground runs in the Canberra (press button cartridge start) and practice marshalling of the Sea Vixen being taxied by a QFI from the FTS (very close to our own cars parked by the hangar). Funniest moment was watching one of our instructors stuff dayglo cardboard cutout flames in through the side hatch of the Canberra during the simulated hangar fire signifying that the student working inside had been a bit too slow to react to the fire alarm and was now toast !

[BEagle]

Weren't there some Sea Vixens doing the same job, as well as a Canberra, Whirlwind (helicopter) and possibly some other aircraft types back in the early 1970s?

Edit - that was a spooky simultaneous post, RAFEngO74to09!

During our JP groundschool sessions over at the old site, we'd often watch baby JEngOs being chased by aircraft various down at AeroThermo - or so it appeared!

[TEEEJ]

Newt,

The FAA have their own ground instructional taxiable Harriers.

The Royal Navy webpage is now a dead link, but still visible on a cached search.

'Dummy Deck : School of Flight Deck Operations : RNAS Culdrose

Royal Navy School of Flight Deck Operations

Dummy Deck HMS Siskin

Aircraft Handling (AH) training was established at Fort Rowner, Gosport in 1946, which became RNAS Gosport (HMS Siskin). The School of Aircraft Handling (SAH) moved to RNAS Culdrose in 1959.

Today, HMS Siskin’s dummy deck is a full size replica of the flight deck of an Invincible class CVS aircraft carrier and, when used with ‘live’ ground instructional aircraft and in-service ground support equipment, provides the ideal controlled training environment for aircraft ground handling, launch/recovery and emergency procedures. Deviation from procedures and mistakes, which could lead to a serious incident on board ship, can be thoroughly de-briefed, corrected and learnt from, without damage to expensive operational aircraft. The low number of recordable ground handling and flight safety incidents aboard the various multi spot decks, especially during recent intensive operations, is further evidence to support the use of ‘live’ training aircraft.

The Air Engineering and Training Support Manager (AETSM) manages the facility, RN instructors deliver the training and a team of seven MoD engineering civil servants maintain the Sea Harrier FA2 and Harrier T8 aircraft. These ‘live’ fixed wing aircraft are taxied on and around the 'flight deck' carrying out simulated launches, recoveries and movements, as directed by Aircraft Handler students under training. Also, non-functional Sea King, Lynx and Merlin helicopters are used in conjunction with the ‘live’ Harriers to empathise tight operating parameters of a busy and hazardous operational flight deck. All aspects of flight safety are considered when moving aircraft around, as they would be on a real aircraft carrier, especially the effect of Jet Blast from the Harriers, which could blow a person overboard'

Training deck plays a crucial role in handling every situation (http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/news/Training-deck-plays-crucial-role-handling-situation/article-244304-detail/article.html)

TJ

[TEEEJ]

RAF Cranwell - DCAE (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcranwell/aboutus/dcae.cfm)

TJ

[TEEEJ]

Newt,

I don't think that any of these Jaguars at RAF Cranwell were flown in. Most had been ground instructional airframes at other bases. These are GR.1s with a few T2s.

Target Lock: Jaguar : Production - United Kingdom (http://www.targetlock.org.uk/jaguar/production_uk.html)

TJ

[Pontius Navigator]

I can just imagine the baby Engs all kee to get oily then being disappointed that it is on a 70s aircraft 40 years old.

Only to get out in the real world to work on a 60s aircraft 50 years old or even a 40s aircraft 70 years old :}

[Old-Duffer]

TEEEJ

The Jaguars at Cosford were swopped for the GR3s and late version airframes when the type went out of service. The old GR1s were binned. There was a big fuss made when the jets were flown in 'cause of the runway length etc but they made it!!

Don't know about those at Cranwell but I think they might be at least the 'A' version ie it has the FIN1064 modification incorporated.

[TEEEJ]

Hi Old-Duffer,

According to the following the single-seaters at RAF Cranwell are a mixture of GR1 and GR1As.

Demobbed Aircraft (http://www.demobbed.org.uk/aircraft.php?type=631)

TJ

[foldingwings]

Newt,

And I'm sure they were fully airworthy when they landed at Cranwell!

They've been at Cranwell for eons and long before Jag went out of service!

Now if you're really worried about Jags being flown in for ground training, the 2 at Syerston (just visible from the A46) were flown in and decommissioned to allow IOT cadets to 'task' and 'guard' them during the final exercise on the new (in 2007) IOTC!

So, they are being put to excellent use at no cost and are, technically I suppose, still 'in service'!

Foldie:D

[newt]

Not worried Foldie! Just aggrieved that perfectly good airframes have to be decommissioned and used for ground training! They were built to fly!:ok:

[kharmael]

There are no Jaguars at Syerston! Only Harriers in Moltovia! :}

[Krystal n chips]

" good airframes have to be decommissioned and used for ground training! They were built to fly! "

Very true.....however...as all airframes have a fatigue life, what would you suggest in lieu for training engineers on ?....

Quite simple really, after one productive phase of their life they go on to another equally beneficial and productive phase.....there again, I could be biased here.....being an engineer.

[BEagle]

I vaguely recall that the first time I looked in the AeroThermo hangar (in 1968), they had a Javelin and (I think) a Piston Provost. There was also a white Vulcan B1 sitting outside for many years - anyone know what happened to it?

Or, for that matter, to all the aircraft which used to be at RAF Halton?

[JG54]

The woefully neglected Vulcan (XA900) met her maker some time in the late 80's.

Regards,
Frank

[JagRigger]

At least some of the Jags at Cranwell were the initial GR1B's which had to be taken out of service due to a 'fatigue' issue ....;)

They did fly in, as shortly after they arrived I was on the team that went and nicked the low time legs and swapped them for life ex ones !

[TEEEJ]

JagRigger,

Thanks for the update. Interesting info.

TJ

[Thunderbird167]

XX739 and XX751 are the Jaguars at Syerston

[newt]

Soo they did fly in to Cranners!!!:D

[N Joe]

I can just imagine the baby Engs all keen to get oily then being disappointed that it is on a 70s aircraft 40 years old.

I went through in the EOT/Hunter era and, being the only DE on a course full of hairies, I assumed it was a joke when they handed me a big oven glove and told me what it was for.

It doesn't matter how old the jet is, the first time you have to crawl under a running aircraft to beat out the fire from the AVPIN starter is an unforgetable experience and not what I'd call a disappointment.

N Joe

[JagRigger]

Oh yes - remember that from TMT at Scampton.

" Here's the glove - when the aircraft starts it will catch fire... "

Gulp ! :uhoh:

[Old-Duffer]

Please excuse the 'Thread drift'.

The RN declined the Belvedere because, inter alia, it dumped Avpin from its engine starters, one at each end, and was generally thought of as a bit of a fire hazard. I don't think it would go down the lift either!

Back to Jaguars at Cranwell.

O-D

[XR219]

For the spotters, we also have a "raspberry ripple" Jaguar T2 from Boscombe down in the hangar which will eventually takes its place in the training scheme at DCAE Cranwell. I presume it will be painted black too in due course. Funny how these posts about jaguars at Cranwell always surface when Term 3 testing takes place!

Interesting... so the gloss black scheme (optimised for air-to-air visibility) is being applied to aircraft that never fly?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Interesting... so the gloss black scheme (optimised for air-to-air visibility) is being applied to aircraft that never fly?

Its a cost issue.

The gloss black scheme is harder wearing than the various matt paint schemes operational aircraft have and thus will require less TLC in the long run.

[the_boy_syrup]

"Or, for that matter, to all the aircraft which used to be at RAF Halton?"

I think they left in about 95/96
They were in the hanger IIRC in '94 but as the techies left and the other ground trades moved in they were shipped away on artics I assume to Cosford

I remember the Hunters at Cranwell someone told me you could put your name down to go taxying them if you wanted don't know if it was true or not

[AR1]

I was in a 'recruitment' film for EO some years back!

[Old-Duffer]

With a nom de plume of 'AR1', I suppose you were playing the part of an radar installation?

[AR1]

With a nom de plume of 'AR1', I suppose you were playing the part of an radar installation?

Spot on - the Radar in question was CR62!

[Blacksheep]

Not worried Foldie! Just aggrieved that perfectly good airframes have to be decommissioned and used for ground training! They were built to fly!I'd much rather see them used for training engineers than for training firemen. :)

As a Brat I was trained with the help of several decommissioned Hunters, a couple of Javelins, a Piston Provost and a couple of Vulcans, before being let loose on proper operational Vulcans. You use whatever's available at the time. All aeroplanes are representative as long as they're not too far out of date.

[kiwibrit]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator
I can just imagine the baby Engs all keen to get oily then being disappointed that it is on a 70s aircraft 40 years old.

I went through in the EOT/Hunter era and, being the only DE on a course full of hairies, I assumed it was a joke when they handed me a big oven glove and told me what it was for.

It doesn't matter how old the jet is, the first time you have to crawl under a running aircraft to beat out the fire from the AVPIN starter is an unforgetable experience and not what I'd call a disappointment.

Speaking as an ex OC EOT1, that was - in part, the point. The flight got our budding junior engineers used to being right close up and personal with real aircraft in a real environment - with our technicians keeping an eye on things in the background. Enormously valuable. Of course, when I was undergoing my training, I too went through with something similar - I recall working a Hunter, Javelin, the Piston Provost - and the Vulcan.