Landing Without Papi Or Vasi

[Captain_BH]

HI..

NIGHT FLIGHT - SHORT RUNWAY

Shooting a VOR - DME APPROACH without PAPI or VASI runway approach lights inoprative.

Reaching minimums you disconnect AP you order for runway track INBD and you fly visual aiming points are not lighted too

What strategy would you follow to remain on a correct decend path to not overrun the runway or landshort... ???

Any Ideas??

THANKS

[Meikleour]

Constant visual aiming point + rate of descent.

[Tmbstory]

If your DME is working and the location of the DME is near the Aerodrome Reference point, then a 300 foot per nautical mile descent will keep you on the correct path.

If no DME then a pilot should be able to judge the descent (300 feet per nautical mile) by the apparent distance between the side markers ( In daylight) or the runway lights ( at night) .

At Broome in Western Australia, in the early days we operated Corporate Jets between Singapore and Broome in this manner, when the Broome runway was much shorter and VASI / PAPI was not yet installed.

Tmb

[Easy Street]

Watch out for this, as well:

The Black Hole Approach: Don't Get Sucked In! (http://www.avweb.com/news/airman/182402-1.html)

Not too much of a problem if you are only become visual at minima, but definitely an issue for long final approaches without PAPI.

[galaxy flyer]

Looking thru the HUD, put the flight path vector on the 3 degree line and get that line on the touchdown zone.

GF

[RAT 5]

1. Every time you fly an approach at night with guidance imprint the rwy light perspective into your brain. Then, when with no guidance, make the picture look the same.
2. Know the correct power/attitude for final flap on 3 degree glide slope. V/S = Gnd Spd/0.2 + 50 fpm. ie 140kts = 750fpm.
3. Do not fly low drag approaches until too close. Configure final flap by 1200' to stabalise the parameters.
4. Be on speed, on power, correct attitude, IN TRIM, and keep the visual TDZ point constant in the window. If the power/attitude are correct, the ROD correct, the crash point constant you must be on a 3 degreee. For different angles adjust acordingly.
That way you need to make fine adjustments as you gently guide the a/c to the rwy. Large changes cause large adjustments. Not good.

[EW73]

Hey...Galaxy Flyer...

then halfway down the slope, you notice your ALIGN alert is showing...oops!

kidding, of course, that 'align' alert is just too large to miss!

Cheers, EW73 :)

PS...have you operated with twin HUDs, but with the HUD control panels built into the FMCs, not as separate control heads.
I'd simply like to know how handy it is trying to access the appropriate pages when you needed to.

[Captain_BH]

Thanks to all who replied...

galaxy flyer
Looking thru the HUD, put the flight path vector on the 3 degree line and get that line on the touchdown zone.


Can you inlight us more please about the technique you are applying..knowing that I am an Airbus pilot...

Thanks

[Tmbstory]

If you are flying an Airbus then congratulations, my suggestion is to gain a through knowledge of the 300 feet per nautical mile descent profile and it will not let you down.

At 10 miles you should be 3000feet, at 5 miles at 1500 feei, 2 miles 600 feet, 1 mile 300feet.

This profile has served the Industry well for many, many years and will also serve you well.

Tmb

[punkalouver]

Good idea to plan ahead on that one. Fortunately you have DME which makes things easy. What is the DME at the threashold? Use that as your reference. For example, the threshold is at 1.5 DME with DME distance decreasing as you get closer to the runway. Minimums are 600 feet AAE. Start your descent at 2miles from the threshold(3.5 DME).

What rate of descent. Based on approximate groundspeed. 140 knots for the final descent add one zero and divide by two which equals 700 fpm. Once close in you can figure it out visually. Take into account significant runway slope, runway width differences and rain on the windshield.

Used to go into short ice strips in the arctic at night. Total black hole places. No papis. We had the threshold coodinates in as the destination on the GPS which was also used for tracking. Would level off at 1500 feet about 10 miles back and configure. At five miles back, final flaps and descent was started. 7-800 fpm usually works. Prior to descent I would mark down the desired altitudes for the last 4 miles. If I was PNF, I would read out the each mile and desired altitude. "4 miles back, 1200 feet". The PF would then know if that if he was at 1150 feet, we were a bit low and could adjust. At each decreasing mile the desired altitude was given. Worked well.

Worst place visually was a night landing at one place that had the first half of the strip with dim lights and the second half with bright lights(remember, these are temporary generator powered lights). It really caused a problem when you discovered that you had been aiming for the second half of the strip when the first half runway lights finally came into view.

One time we had to leave a strip with no lights. Got a groundcrew guy on a skidoo to lay out several rolls of diesel soaked toilet paper rolls and then light them up just as we were ready to roll. It worked.

[p51guy]

Landing at night on the east coast of the Domican Republic in a 727 came out of an NDB approach and trying to make the VASI show proper glideslope realized that we were way too shallow so leveled off and did an all white approach. Maybe a mule stepped on the approach end of the VASI but it was at about 1 degree. I warned our NY arrival flight not to use the VASI when we departed. If it doesn't look right it probably isn't. It was Punta Cana. I was a new captain and we were sent copies of approach charts so I was being extra careful. Those are the nights you can get in the headlines if you are not careful.

[galaxy flyer]

EW73

No, only single HUD installation with glare shield controls--right in front of my face, easy to reach. I would suspect the FMS controls would be not very handy. OTOH, not much to control, intensity and calibration check.

OP-- does the 'Bus have a HUD?

GF

[Captain_BH]

EVEN A MILE COULD LET YOU CRASH.. ITS VERY CRITICAL ... if you land short you hit the obstacles if you land long you might overrun the runway and fall into the sea...

Regarding GS/2.. Don't you think using the TAS would be more realiable.. ??

for airbus you need a minimum of 600 FT/M during the approach to maintain a constant approach path then from 1 mile it might vary to maintain the GP.

USING VISUAL AIDS FOR LANDING COULD BE a catastrophic decision for TIRED pilots who've done 4 or 5 sectors a day.. specially a guy with glasses..:8


http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/5583/15240134.gif

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

Gee.

Good Luck!

Hope you make it. Must have been rough for all the pilots that had to fly before they invented papis.

[Sciolistes]

At 10 miles you should be 3000feet, at 5 miles at 1500 feei, 2 miles 600 feet, 1 mile 300feet.

This profile has served the Industry well for many, many years and will also serve you well.
Said with such confidence, that's the difference between theory and experience ;) On. VOR/DME approach the DME is more likely to be a nm or more into the runway. The solution is to get the height/DME profile from the chart.

[A37575]

Because it is difficult to accurately judge the approach angle at night there is often a tendency for both pilots to be heads up all the way down to over the threshold. While the well known 320 ft per mile for approach angle and five times the ground speed will give you the desired rate of descent, the last 500 feet is where real caution is required.

It becomes important for the PNF (and of course the PF) to keep a close eye for excessive rate of descent close in as that is where a too high or too low angle of approach suddenly becomes more obvious.

Because there is an understandable desire for both pilots to keep heads up as the aircraft closes with the runway, sink rates may go unseen and therefore un-checked at night on a black hole approach.

While a support call at 500 ft agl of airspeed, altitude and sink rate is a SOP for many operators be it day or night, things can go wrong very quickly below 500 ft.

To prevent excessive sink rate below 500 ft going unnoticed because of both pilots staring at the runway scene, some operators have an extra call by the PNF at 200 feet agl. This requirement forces the PNF to momentarily go heads down to read aloud the altitude, airspeed variance from Vref bug and sink rate. Example: "200 feet - Sink 900 - bug plus ten".

If clearly this support call suddenly reveals a potentially dangerous situation rapidly developing (for example, low thrust condition leading to high sink rate), there is enough height to conduct an immediate go-around allowing for spool up rate and current sink rate. There is a "survival" tendency for both pilots to be keenly looking through the windscreen at the runway lights especially in rain or mist and as stated earlier this means no one is monitoring the flight instruments or the thrust levels when close to the ground.

By having a SOP that forces one pilot to glance down at the instruments at 200 feet, the chances of not picking up a deteriorating situation are diminished. We used this SOP when operating 737's into black hole approaches into Pacific atoll airstrips at night with no glide slope guidance available.

[noperf]

Try some TLAR

[BARKINGMAD]

If your FMS has fix pages which take landing rwy as a fix, enter it and put 1nm or 2 nm range rings out to the NPA minima range.
Target alt at rwy is rwy elevation + 50'.
1 mile out target is 320' more to maintain nominal 3 degree G/S (NOT 300´/NM!)
2miles is 640' more than threshold and so on.
Write down these targets in BIG PRINT for both to see in the darkness and hopefully between PF and PM you will be able to monitor the progress towards the threshold after the NPA minima as you drive through the "black hole".
Works a treat on the 73NG but your individual a/c and FMS will dictate.
Same setup keeps you out of smoking hole and/or the office on the rare visual circuit.
Hope this is of use, practise on a good day at familiar field before using in anger?

[heavy.airbourne]

Two simple data:

1. a 3° slope equates to a descent rate (ft/min) of 5 times ground speed (kts)

2. (w/ full slats/flaps) the TDZ should appear (about) in the middle between the upper and lower edges of windscreen. Just keep it there!

This helped in PUJ, POP, SSJ, and other places with poor lighting.

Happy landings. :ok:

[Captain_BH]

If your FMS has fix pages which take landing rwy as a fix, enter it and put 1nm or 2 nm range rings out to the NPA minima range.
Target alt at rwy is rwy elevation + 50'.
1 mile out target is 320' more to maintain nominal 3 degree G/S (NOT 300´/NM!)
2miles is 640' more than threshold and so on.


If the Airbus is equiped with a new FMS which can draw fixes and radiuses..

How Could you benefit from it? to help in reminding you with your decend path calculations instead of putting your self under more pressure with calculating the decend path .. etc ...

any MCDU expert?

[mary meagher]

Interesting discussion. Reminds me of learning two different approaches with practically no clues.....glassy water landings in a J3, and, while training for the night rating at Wycombe Air Park, aircraft landing lights not working but runway lighting still ok. Sinking into a black hole, that's what it felt like.. no papi, or other useful indicators, but then it was only a PA28......

[727Man]

Keep the runway in the window as said before, if the runway is going lower in the window and then disappears you will overshoot and vise versa, I fly a B727 all manual basic autopilot, GPS and no FMS all the planning in your head!

Happy Landings!

[Slasher]

Surely the answer of the poster above is enough? Even these
days arent pilots still taught to do pure visual approaches
(and black hole ones at night too) anymore without needing
some puter for guidance? :ugh:

[MISSED APCH]

i'd add be aggressive on the controls. correct any error immediately, dont just lower the nose and wait for the alignment to come back. no actively correct any deviations.
:cool:
SMJP at night, beautiful blackhole effect. the surrounding area is just soo dark..
and they have PAPI/VOR/DME and sometimes ILS

[Agaricus bisporus]

i'd add be aggressive on the controls.
Ouch! I can see why you're called "Missed Approach"


Slasher, spot-on!

Has no-one heard of a sight picture approach?
I begin to worry when the lack of papis becomes any more than a passing comment in the landing brief.

[KMF]

Not sure anybody reads this old of a form entry, however when I fly at night over featureless terrain and I have to shoot a visual approach into an airport without a Vasi I go to the airport fly over the airport enter a standard traffic pattern which gives me a much better frame of reference of distances and approach angles when landing at such an airport.

[RAT 5]

I'm assuming runway edge lights & threshold light; centreline lights even better. The question was finishing the approach after an NPA flown by autopilot and then manual from minimum. One would trust that at MDA the approach had been flown with accuracy to put you on glide path at MDA, and it was a CDA, not a dive & drive with level segment. If so: when visual disconnect and do very little. Pick the visual touchdown point and keep it fixed in the window. Know your attitude for the required glide angle. V/S = 5 x ground speed +50. As long as it is within +/-100fpm (for a jet) that's OK when visual. Know your power setting. If it was correct, on speed at MDA leave well alone. It is a common human trait to raise the nose & increase power when visual. Don't, if not necessary, but it is an unconscious action. Gentle breaths on the controls, stay relaxed and don't squeeze to death the controls. Short runway; a tendency to flare early & float. Once again, use normal correct flare technique.
If you are visual at low level, then all this DME and arcs & rings stuff is not helpful. You are visual and starting at a correct point in space. Don't over complicate it. KISS.

[Smilin_Ed]

It is refreshing (and amazing) that PPrUNers are actually talking about flying the airplane rather than pushing buttons. Keep it up. Maybe the newbies will learn something. :D

[vilas]

Captain_BH, RAT 5
With Airbus FPV so many calculations are not necessary. There are two ways of doing the approach:
1. Old fashioned way point the nose at the threshold and keep the FPV(bird) at three degrees. Since it is flight path it will take care of the required ROD. Keep the ATHR.
2. FMGS way use Radial in function make direct to RW threshold and insert the radial in. That will align the yoyo(VDev) to threshold and use it as GS.
Simple.