C-47 civil conversion

[poschrob]

Hi there!

I'm looking for some detailed info on the history of the C-47, especially when they were converted to civil use after WW2.

My girlfriend has to write an essay on this but cannot quite find enough sources - and it has to be long.

That's all the specifications on the topic I have as of now, I'll ask further questions later on.

Of course, related links/topics are also welcome.

Thanks in advance!

[forget]

DC-1,DC-2,DC-3,C-47,Dakota Aircraft (http://www.dc3history.org/dc3_super_specs_pg.htm)

[stepwilk]

I don't know how you're doing your search, but there must be ten million words on the Web, at a WAG, about the Douglas DC-3/C-47. It has to be one of the most written-about aircraft in the world, especially this year, its 75th anniversary.

[Agaricus bisporus]

But were they "converted"?

Was any mod done to a C47 when putting it on a civvy registration, or was the change just a paperwork exercise? I find it hard to imagine that beyond a radio fit anything much was needed.

What were the physical differences between aircraft leaving the factory as a C47 and a DC3? (apart from trim, furnishings etc).

[stepwilk]

Great big cargo doors, on the C-47, port side. The ones, when removed, out of which the Vietnam Magic Dragon's chain gun shot.

[con-pilot]

Was any mod done to a C47 when putting it on a civvy registration, or was the change just a paperwork exercise? I find it hard to imagine that beyond a radio fit anything much was needed.


The vast majority of C-47 were built as cargo aircraft, many others only had bench seating on the sides of the cabin for paratroopers. So a big part of the conversion of the standard C-47 to passenger use was the removal of the cargo flooring and installing seat tracks, for both airlines use and corporate use. This also required the installation of passenger reading lights and fresh air vents.

Also many of the C-47s had cabin windows with plugs in the middle of the windows that could be pushed out allowing the crew/passengers, if armed, to fire at enemy fighters if attacked*, these had to be replaced with standard cabin windows.

One of the DC-3s that I flew was actually a C-53, this was a C-47 built to carry paratroopers and one of the differences between the C-47 and the C-53 was that the C-53 carried more fuel than the standard C-47.



* I never heard if a C-47 was ever defended in this manner or not.

[PaperTiger]

I find it hard to imagine that beyond a radio fit anything much was needed.Maybe some seats ?

[stepwilk]

Cargo door, you guys, cargo door. Haven't any of you seen photos of C-47s unloading coal during the Berlin Airlift? The window plugs and seats were inconsequential.

[pasir]

...

The US coded their Military aircraft with a prefix indicating its role
- of those I can recall include these -

C - Cargo C47

P - Pursuit as in P51 Mustang - ie Fighter in RAF terms

B - Bomber B17 B24 etc

PBY Amphibian or Naval types

X Experimental


...

[seacue]

There are surely people on PPRuNe who know much more about this, but off the top of my head, until somewhat after WW2, the Navy had a completely different scheme of numbering aircraft from that used by the Army (Air Corps / Air Force).

Air Corps pursuits / fighters would be in the P-xx series. ie: P-40, P-47, P-47, P-80.

Air Corps bombers were B, as mentioned before.....

Navy fighters would be F[number][letter for manufacturer][number for variant if any]
ie: F4F would be a Grumman fighter, as would a later one, F6F General Motors built F4s during WW2 named the FM-1.

The P-80 became the F-80 after "unification" of the services in the late 1940s.

The PB series were Navy patrol/bombers. PBY would be a patrol bomber built by Consolidated. The PB4Y would be a later model. Examples of Martin patrol planes would be the PBM , etc.

etc etc

[stepwilk]

How'd we get off on this tangent???

[PaperTiger]

@ pasir & seacue

How does that help OP ?

@ stepwilk

Are you saying the cargo doors were removed or added during conversion ?

[forget]

How'd we get off on this tangent???

Beats me. Ask pasir. He started it for no reason that I can see. :confused:

[stevef]

I don't have immediate access to my documents but as far as I can remember, B.E.A used several post-war variants of Dakota Mk3 aircraft converted by Airwork and Scottish Aviation. These were called the Pionair or Pionair Leopard, depending on the role.
The Pionair Class was purely for passenger use and the Pionair Leopard Class was able to be converted quickly to either freight of passenger use.
Pionair: 28 or 30 seater, depending on requirements. Two pilots and a steward plus a radio operator when required. Single main entrance door on port side incorporated built-in steps and a freight hold was located a little further back.
Pionair Leopard: Used as either pure freighter or in a 32 seat pax role. Double cargo doors on port side, as per C47.

[stepwilk]

Paper Tiger, C-47s were built new with quite large double cargo doors, each of them about five feet wide and seven or eight high, I'm guessing. They had big external hinges about two feet long, two per door. (I'm not sure -all- C-47s were so configured, but certainly most of them were.)

These doors would obviously have to be removed and the big hole made whole, as it were, if a C-47 was to be converted to a passenger-carrying DC-3.

I'm surprised the airplane seems so unfamilar to the English. Don't you remember all those photos of the 82nd and 101st Airborne jumping out of the cargo-door hole over Normandy and Belgium? (The aft door was removed before paratroop flights.)

[stevef]

The cargo door aperture total size was about 5' 10" x 7'.0" and the normal para exit was via a removable door inside the forward cargo door frame. It was unlocked by two upper handles and lifted upward and inward in a lazy 'S' channel, if I remember correctly. It would be replaced after the jumpers had left.
It might be worth remembering that British forces, as well as American, jumped from these aircraft: the Normandy invasion, Operation Market Garden, the Rhine advance and Burma operations instantly come to mind.
The 'Dak'/C47 is very well-known in the UK to those interested in historic aircraft..

[stepwilk]

I didn't mean to malign the British by failing to name every unit that jumped from a C-47 during World War II.

My concern about the notoriety of the C-47 is simply prompted by some of the baffling questions (and answers) appearing in this thread, since, as a working aviation historian, I have always come to this forum for authoritative answers and opinions.

Yours, obviously, gets categorized under authoritative, since you obviously know way more than I do about C-47 jump doors. For that, thank you!

[PaperTiger]

These doors would obviously have to be removed and the big hole made whole, as it were, if a C-47 was to be converted to a passenger-carrying DC-3.Not necessarily. Some (many ? most ?) retained the double-door.
All sizes | C-FKAZ | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/29965086@N08/4996774626/sizes/z/)

[Brian Abraham]

Your girlfriend may find some useful info here The DC-3 Hangar on douglasdc3.com DC3 C47 C-47 (http://www.douglasdc3.com)

[pigboat]

Quite often those cargo doors on the DC-3 hid a built-in airstair door, located in the front half of the door. This is a pic of a model, but it's how the real aircraft was configured.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/Siddley-Hawker/AAM1-1.jpg

[tail wheel]

The civil DC3 was also available with large double cargo doors. For some unknown reason the KNILM DC3s and DC5s had the cargo doors on the right (starboard) side, rather than the usual left (port) side.

Many of the civil DC3s in Papua New Guinea in the 1960s and early 1970s still had the original side saddle folding passenger seats, with netted cargo down the center of the cabin.

Right side door (http://www.qam.com.au/aircraft/dc-3/dougdoug.htm). (Link courtesy of Queensland Air Museum and PPRuNer Fris B Fairing).

[barit1]

There are so many variants on the DC-3 theme that entire books have been written.

The initial order -- AA in 1935 -- had the passenger door on the RIGHT side, and used WRIGHT engines. When United ordered it, they called for a LEFT pax door and Pratt & Whitney engines. The aircraft was really successful prewar, orders totalled about 800 at the time of Pearl Harbor. This number of civil orders was not reached until the Boeing 727 in the 70s - maybe 35 years later.

Although the C-47 had the cargo door with a paratroop door-within-a-door, the C-53 had only the paratroop door - no cargo door. Both used the P&W engine, although in civil use some operators converted them to Wright engine to standardize their fleet. Purdue Aeronautics was one such example.

Generally, passenger conversions of the C-47 had the cargo door riveted shut, and only the smaller pax door was used.

There were several mandatory mods as the result of service experience, the wing attachment flanges being one example.

[con-pilot]

barit1, help me out here if you can.

My DC-3 was converted by company that is not in business any longer, at least not that I am aware of. It was converted in 1946 and in the paperwork that came with aircraft it was released from the USAAF because it was 'war weary', with less than 500 TT. Which I found amusing.

Anyway, I cannot for the life of me remember the name of the company, except I want to say that one of the names of the company was something like Warner.

The first civilian owner was the Wriggly Company, of the chewing gum fame.

Does that ring any bells?

Thanks.

C-P

[stepwilk]

Wriggly is great, I love it, but the people who make chewing gum are Wrigley.

[barit1]

con-pilot:
Anyway, I cannot for the life of me remember the name of the company, except I want to say that one of the names of the company was something like Warner.

The name that comes to mind is Remmert-Warner, in St. Louis maybe.

But don't hold me to any of that.

[stevef]

This aircraft sounds similar:
DC3/C47A Serial No 43-48225. Accumulated 772 hours with the Army Air Corps Transport Command up until January 1946.
Subsequently:

Jan 46 to Apr 46,
Billy D. Parker of Phillips Petroleum.
Bartlesville, Oklahoma.
8.00 hours.

Apr 46 to Jun 78
P.K. Wrigley of Chicago, Illinois.
Based on Catalina Island,
Avalon Airport, Catalina.
2707 hours.

Jun 78 to Apr 80
Naval Museum,
Pensacola, Florida.
1.00 hour.

April 80 to Jul 86
Robert A. Haefner III, President
GHK Oil Company.
Olahoma City,
247 hours.

July 86
Beat A. Wertli, President
Dream-Aire, Inc.
Wilmington.DE

[pigboat]

Remmert-Werner were based at Lambert Field and I believe they did mostly conversions to corporate machines. Basically they took an ex-military C-47 or C-53, stripped it and added state of the art radios, w/x radar and a radar nose, single-pane heated windshield, etc. They replaced the Pratt R1830-92 engines with either the -94's or the Pratt R2000's used on the DC-4, or the Wright R1820-56's. The interiors were pretty luxurious, with a center credenza, a couple of single and double club arrangements and a three piece divan or two. Most had two panorama windows a side. We bought CF-ORD from Ford of Canada. It had 18 seats in the above configuration, with the 1350 HP -94 engines and the increased gross weight to 26,900 lbs for passengers. I don't have a pic of it, and I won't bore you with a pic of the model I built of it.

Here's another example of R-W's conversions, this time an ex-C-53 with the R2000 engines.

http://www.1000aircraftphotos.com/Transports/898.jpg

This airplane was owned by the Quebec Cartier Mining Company, hence the registration, CF-QCM. QCM used to be the Canadian mining arm of US Steel.

[Four Wings]

I thought almost all DC3s used post war were actually converted Dakotas / C47s? Many had minimal conversion to retain flexibility.
Until the demise of Aden Airways (1967) they operated 7 such. One lost to 'terrorist' bomb in Nov '66 Maifah-Aden. They all had original cargo doors and used in mixed configuration..i.e. seat tracks, easily removable seats. So you might find yourself (I've always been SLF) sitting next to a bulldozer gearbox or large tin box of .303 ammo.
On one occasion my girlfriend turned up at El Ataq (edge of Empty Quarter) with a fine Arab wooden chest. As the ground agent had a second job as local Shell petrol station dealer - I was local Shell District Manager, no problem off loading two pax (British political officer and visitor - yuk!), removing two seats, and loading said chest.
Last DC3 fight I made was with Air Kenya in 1991 - two a/c, RAF Dakotas vintage 1946, ex EAAC which I think still had cargo doors? But I am open to correction - as always.

[con-pilot]

Okay, let's see here.

First;

April 80 to Jul 86
Robert A. Haefner III, President
GHK Oil Company.
Olahoma City,
247 hours.


Yup, that was us, the boss's name is spelled Hefner, but other than that 100% correct. I guess I forgot about Billy Parker, of Phillips 66 Oil, in Bartlesville, Oklahoma. When we bought the aircraft is had less than 3,000 hours total time. It had the lowest total time of any DC-3 still flying in the world. At least I never heard of one with less time still flying.


Piggy and bairt;

The name that comes to mind is Remmert-Warner, in St. Louis maybe.


Yes, that's it, thanks. :ok:

And finally;

Wriggly is great, I love it, but the people who make chewing gum are Wrigley.

Oops, quite right you are. :O


And just for the hell of it, here is the picture of it again.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c246/con-pilot/12-26-2007_016.jpg

And the cabin.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c246/con-pilot/12-26-2007_015.jpg

[Four Wings]

Details of the Aden Airways DC3 / C47 fleet here, with photos showing cargo doors adenairways.com/Aden%20Airways/fleet_dc3
Note they are all listed as DC3 C47 (various marks) except one R4D

[tonytech2]

I remember that Pan American or its affliates in South America used "Hi-Per DC3 and were fitted with the R2000 engines and more notably main landing gear doors. Believe the use of increased power engines mandated installation of a geared rudder tab ti ease the rudder pedal load in a single engine go-around.
Pan Am did a lot of DC-3 work at LaGuardia in New York and also service civil B-18 and B-23 which had many common design features with the DC3.

[pigboat]

... Believe the use of increased power engines mandated installation of a geared rudder tab ti ease the rudder pedal load in a single engine go-around.
That's correct tt, or at least the one that I flew did. A rum thing though, both aircraft had a cockpit placard that warned "Avoid yawed flight". I think I know why. I was co-pilot one morning when we were doing our sched with CF-ORD, chugging along VFR under broken cloud. A cold front had gone through some time earlier and it was a bit turbulent, nothing to worry about but an occasional hefty jolt. All of a sudden the airplane yawed abdruptly to the left, enough that I thought we'd lost the left engine. I was flying, with one foot on the floor and the other on the tank selector, so by the time I got both feet back on the rudder pedals, all had returned to normal. The Captain and I looked at each other and asked what the hell had happened. We figured it must have been that the airplane yawed in a gust and the rudder tab simply exaggerated the action.

By the way, are you the Tony who used to write the superb articles for Airliners magazine?

[poschrob]

wow! Thanks very much, very useful info & links!

[aviate1138]

As so many DC-3s were war weary/ surplus and converted to civilian roles, was the accident rate higher than expected? Did engines fail more frequently?

I ask because as a small lad and keen on aeroplanes I have a vague remembrance of some late 40's family table talk being about ex wartime now civil machines proving somewhat "dicey".

Probably part of the post war apathy - I remember my mother, bless her, attributing every abnormal weather event to "The Atom!"

[Jorge46]

Canadair, in Montreal, did conversions after WW 2, Trans Canada Airlines fleet of DC-3's was done by them around 1946.



Douglas DC-3 Dakota (http://www.capa-acca.com/fifty_two_dc3_dakota.htm)

[tonytech2]

The one and same Tony. Thanks much for the nice words.
Last DC-3 I was on was at Smith Reynolds Airport in Winston Salem North Carolina. The props were being serviced by Piedmont Aviation Services in mid-90s. It was a stretch version converted to PT-6 and updated instrumentation. Quite a nice job a credit to the Old Lady able to assimilate those changes quite gracefully.
Does anyone remember the story of a BEA Dakota calling in at 25,000 feet. It was intercepted by hastily scrambled jets as they couldn't believe a Dakota up there. It had been fitted with RR Darts to prove them for the oncoming Viscount service. Carried only certain cargo and the pilots naturally were on O2. Must have given them a laugh or maybe a scare?

[WHBM]

As so many DC-3s were war weary/ surplus and converted to civilian roles, was the accident rate higher than expected? Did engines fail more frequently?

I ask because as a small lad and keen on aeroplanes I have a vague remembrance of some late 40's family table talk being about ex wartime now civil machines proving somewhat "dicey".
By no means all the wartime DC3s were converted to civilian use, there were plenty to go round the postwar demand and a significant number had actually seen very little use. Those which were notably tired were not wanted, and scrapped. Engines of the time were subject to periodic substantial major overhauls which (in theory) brought them back to manufacturers original tolerances etc.

There were a wide range of civilian conversions, and you actually wonder if any two in service were the same. The BEA ones, done by Scottish Aviation at Prestwick, and renamed Pionairs, were especially thorough.

There were other surplus WW2 types, such as the 4-engined bombers, which did not make anything like such a popular conversion to civilian use; possibly it was these being discussed at the time.

[twochai]

We figured it must have been that the airplane yawed in a gust and the rudder tab simply exaggerated the action.

Oh, yes, rudder reversal and rudder lock was a real issue on the DC-3, particularly on single engine. Use the rudder very gently, or you'd get a nasty surprise. And, we won't talk about the aft CG stall - very easy to find yourself looking up at the world! But...airplanes did those sort of things fifty years ago.

The DC-3 I flew had been converted originally in 1947 by Canadair, with R-1830-94's with the two stage supercharger. Great for medium altitude photo and relatively fast, too.

[pigboat]

..relatively fast, too.

They used to file 160 kt TAS with that one in my pic. We filed 150 kt with ORD, the ex-Ford machine.

I discussed that rudder action with Don McVicar once during an elbow-bending at the Green Hornet in Montreal. He'd never heard of it on the DC-3, but the Bristol Blenhiem that he flew across the north when he did the ferrys from England to Vancouver had a similar trait. He said if it happened the airplane went into a flat spin and the only option was to bail out.

It's great to make your virtual aquaintance Tony. Your account of the Eastern 727 accident at JFK is one of the most poignant pieces I have ever read.

We used Piedmont for our landing gear and propeller overhauls, and also for that one-of wing pull on our corporate F-27. It was strange taxiing across Liberty Avenue, waiting for the light. Remember John Conroy's Tri-Turbo 3, where he stuck a 3rd PT-6 in the nose? It was a real performer on skis. I seem to recall British European had 3 of the Dart conversions, used them as freighters.

[BobNye]

My husband was a small plane pilot, his friend flew 747s. His friend Larry flew for United. Larry had a friend in Switzerland who rebuilt or helped rebuild DC-3s.

This is going back quite a few years, my husband and Larry both have passed away and I stumbled on your question by accident and thought I would offer my two cents. And I could be all wrong.

The man in Switzerland was named Beat Wertli and he had a company that flew only DC-3s. called Dream-Aire Inc. I think there was a crash and the company went out of business.

I remember something about a plane that was from Wriggly's .. but it might have been a Piper Tri-Pacer that Bob Nass bought...

Anyway.. didn't mean to crash your party.. but there was something about Wriggly's and a plane my husband talked about.. :confused:

[Lordflasheart]

Between the C-47 Skytrain and the C-53 Skytrooper, the Douglas DC-3 also appeared as the -

C-48, C-49, C-50, C-51, and C-52.

I think most of these were pre-war airline models press-ganged by the military and given C- numbers according to their airline or engine or other configurations of which there were plenty. Lots of detail available out there. LFH

[scotbill]

The BEA conversion to Pionair was a major mod. The wireless operator station was removed to permit an extra row of seats - total 32 until performance requirements became more stringent. These aircraft can be identified by having 8 windows rather than 7.
The passenger entry door had an airstair built in.

[avionic type]

I believe the British European Airways C47s were overhauled and modified by Scottish Aviation and then had the routine check2,3,and4s done by themselves at Renfrew until B.E.A.consolidated all their checks to L.H.R.in around 1955 where I started working on them [Happy Days]we had a large fleet around 46, 8 of which were freighters I think [fading memory]
If you go to the British Airways Museum web site or the aviation photo libraries on the web here are plenty of pictures of airline Daks.:D:D

[4Greens]

Qantas used them purely to give to give Command hours to pilots ie as training aids no pax.

[Flightwatch]

Does anyone remember the story of a BEA Dakota calling in at 25,000 feet. It was intercepted by hastily scrambled jets as they couldn't believe a Dakota up there. It had been fitted with RR Darts to prove them for the oncoming Viscount service. Carried only certain cargo and the pilots naturally were on O2. Must have given them a laugh or maybe a scare?

My father used to tell me tales of these two Dart powered aircraft. I am not sure if he actually flew them as I had thought he was on the Viking in the early 1950s but apparently they were received with much confusion all over Europe. In one early rotation to Rome they managed to wind themselves up to 31,000' and on first contact with the Italians over the Alps, the controller upon asking for the type refused to believe them and offered little help thereafter, I had not heard of any interception though and I think he would have told me if this had happened. It's a good story though even if apocryphal.

The two aircraft were "Pioneer-Leopards" as BEA called them, i.e. convertible pax/freighters and were only used as the latter during the Dart trials, a central O2 system was installed for the crew and observers but I doubt fare payers would have appreciated it! After the trial finished they were reconverted to piston power and continued in service until their ultimate sale in the early 60s.

More info here. 1952 | 3204 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1952/1952%20-%203204.html)

[JW411]

Apart from the C-47 and the C-53, there were also C-48, C-49, C-50, C-51, C-52, C-68 and C-84 military variants.

[avionic type]

Re the Dart Daks G-ALXL and G-AMDB were converted by Rolls Royce between January 1951 and June 1951 and reconverted in November 1953. From a former BEA Captain he said they were special Dakota crews and as you say flew on Oxygen at all times, because of the Mod the Dak was nose heavy and always carried bags of stone ballast in the rear aft of the freight door to off set this.
As you say the stories are legion grown more embellished by the passing of time .
My one regreat is I never worked on those 2 aircraft till after they were de-modded as the overhaul facilities were not moved down to LHR till
1955 .:{ There is a splendid picture of the instillation in the British Airways Museum web site in the photo section

[JW411]

I think you will find it was G-ALXN (not G-ALXL).

[pigboat]

Anybody know what Mk of Dart that was installed?

[Dak Man]

Mk1, I would imagine.......;)

[Flightwatch]

Anybody know what Mk of Dart that was installed?

Mk505 according to the article I gave the link to in my previous post.

BEA were similarly involved a few years later with the Tyne Ambassador although this time it was a re-engined prototype involved. BEA supplied a few dedicated crews who flew it all around the med - I used to fly with a couple of the then F/Os in the 70s.

[avionic type]

Sorry lads JW411 is correct it was G-ALXN the old eyes you know, he is 10 years younger than I, the only thing different as far as we" Graunchers" were concerned on both a/c was how the Magneto points were adjusted the fire wall bulkhead was not moded with removeable panels behind the mags so it needed a mirror to make the adjustment not something to do out on a wet night .