Lossie next?

[Biggus]

More calculated leaks, or just a rumour/planning option...?

BBC News - Fears mount for RAF Lossiemouth future (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-11590130)

[ZH875]

Hopefully.



There is no better sight than RAF Lossiemouth receding in the rear view mirror

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Makes an awful lot of sense to close it.

[foldingwings]

Makes an awful lot of sense to close it.

Why? Isn't it usually BLU/BLU when the rest of the living world is YLO/YLO or worse! Goes for its local area low flying too!

Foldie:ok:

[andgo]

Lossie will no doubt close.
Way too many GOOD reasons to keep it open in terms of location, weather, low flying on the door step etc.
Oh well it dosent have St Andrews on the door step, and its too far for our Airships to want to come visit!
Yep, doomed :ugh:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Why? Isn't it usually BLU/BLU when the rest of the living world is YLO/YLO or worse! Goes for its local area low flying too!

Foldie:ok:

Having spent some time there you are still not selling it to me :p

[jindabyne]

Way too many GOOD reasons to keep it open in terms of location, weather, low flying on the door step

Not to mention our most Northern location in 'strategic' terms, and a significant political 'softener', twixt Whitehall and Edinburgh.

[Impiger]

With Kinloss down I suspect there will be a tactical pause before any decision on Lossie or the Jocks will revolt.

Anyhow surely the best plan is to keep it with Bornado GR4 until about 2016 when that fleet will almost certainly draw-down somewhat. Then Lossie could go on C&M and be developed for the JSF (aka Dave) with the remaining Bornadoes at Marham until that closes circa 2022.

Fantasy basing - you've gotta love it!:ok:

[Grimweasel]

I thought it was staying open as the JSF/JCA base due to extreme noise levels? Can't see her Majesty allowing them noisy wretched things disturbing the peace at Sandringham?? (ie Marham basing is out).

[Easy Street]

Quote:
Originally Posted by foldingwings http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/431367-lossie-next.html#post6009601)
Why? Isn't it usually BLU/BLU when the rest of the living world is YLO/YLO or worse! Goes for its local area low flying too!

Foldiehttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


Yes it is BLU a lot but that doesn't account for the days when howling winds terminate flying! Or when ice closes the whole area for a couple of weeks! Plus low flying is a little bit "Cold War", to use the modern vernacular. The logistic chain from the maintenance hub at Marham has a measurable effect on output. And finally, Lossie is a long way from the Army "customer" which makes the whole ALI thing a lot more difficult.

However the decision is not going to be straightforward for the political reasons already outlined above...

[Willard Whyte]

I'd a notion that I read somewhere that the furore over Lightning II's noise levels was all hot air.

[Guzlin Adnams]

I've got a feeling that Kinloss and Lossi will become Pongo land within a few years. That will help the local economy. They may even keep Lossi's flying status for exercises etc. It may be handy when we withdraw from Germany. Oh well, what do I know, I'm only a civvy....

[Easy Street]

They may even keep Lossie's flying status for exercises etc


Unfortunately the Army have a penchant for using runways as vehicle parking or ready-made foundations for barrack blocks: take a look at Catterick next time you're on the A1!

However, I agree that Morayshire could easily become squaddie-land. I offer you the following smilies to represent the reactions of the locals:

Neds :ouch:
Planespotters :{
Findhorn yachties / Moray golfers :mad:
Buckie fishwives :}:ooh:

And maybe even Gordonstoun might wish the RAF would come back!

[dropintheoggin]

I was under the impression the main noise concerns were during viffviffnozznozz.... Surely not an issue now?

[RAFEngO74to09]

F-35 noise levels are a big issue over here in the USA with some communities taking legal action over a perceived threat to property values. Seemingly not everyone enjoys "the sound of freedom" ! The link, relating to a campaign opposing the basing of Air National Guard F-35s at Tucson International Airport, has some test data from USAF sources.

Noise Levels if the F-35 Comes to Tucson International Airport (http://tucsonforward.com/studies/noise-in-tucson-if-the-f-35-comes-to-the-air-national-guard/)

[Willard Whyte]

I've got a feeling that Kinloss and Lossi will become Pongo land within a few years.

Are the Scottish constabulary prepared for this.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

the Jocks will revolt.



Some would say the Jocks are already revolting:E

[L J R]

Are the Scottish constabulary prepared for this

...No but Johannas will be a little more 'entertaining'

[Ogre]

All the attendees of the Wednesday night "Grab a granny" will be pleased....

[Strato Q]

Indications are that 6 sqns will remain, is either Lossie or Marham big enough to host that number of sqns?

[vernon99]

Well the Scots want independence, here is a chance to make it happen and save some serious cash. But it would have to be full independence, let them provide their own defence etc. I reckon we would save a fortune.

In fact if we did the same to Wales and NI we would be quids in, note the figure in the chart below of £48.4bn

Deficit would be sorted in a year, then we could start spending on defence again:}

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/10/20/article-1322344-0BB2D298000005DC-471_634x527.jpg

[david parry]

Strato Q .... Lossiemouth is plenty big enough to take 6 Squadrons!!! Had more than that when it was FAA HMS Fulmar;)

[hum]

No more Brontosaurus and chips in the Bothay.... :{

[just another jocky]

My guess is XV (R) to Marham, remaining sqn to Leuchars until it's time to lose another sqn, then they will go.

[Snap Ambush]

There seemed to be plenty of demand for an airfield in Moray, judging by the number of aircraft up at both stations for major exercises over recent years (and probably longer, but I wasn't there to see them). Surely Lossie would have a future even with only 2 Tornado Sqns and the resulting unallocated space and facilities supporting the exercises that Kinloss used to host.

Maybe the foreign aircraft meeting our maritime patrol commitments could be permanently based there too...

[just another jocky]

Would the moving of the GR4 necessarily result in the closure of Lossie? N QRA need a mil div, the GR4 sim may be used by a Leuchars-based sqn and as you say, Army or MPA could ensure it's survival. Anyway, I thought we discovered many years ago that closing an airbase actually costs us money (in the short term) due to the relocation expenses alone. :confused:

[nav attacking]

Of course Lossie will close. With JSF orders reduced the only place they will go is to Yeovilton to be flown by the Fleet Air Arm again, why on earth would they want their carrier aircraft based in the North of Scotland only to have to embark what is left of an Air Wing off the South Coast.

Just Another Jocky - get with it what MPA? Would you believe it our Maritime Nation has had the wisdom to bin that capability.

As to turning Kinloss and Lossie to Army bases. Same arguement on location applies. The Army only really has one training area that is any good for any of their kit - Salisbury Plain. They will want all of their units near by and easily deployable from Brize International or any other of the Southern Airports that the Transport Aircraft Consortium PLC wish to operate from, the contract will cost far too much to have them picked up from Scotland.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I fear what are now seeing is the dying throws of the 100 year Air Force experiment

[just another jocky]

Just Another Jocky - get with it what MPA?

From post #25Maybe the foreign aircraft meeting our maritime patrol commitments could be permanently based there too...

That MPA! :)

[Finningley Boy]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I fear what are now seeing is the dying throws of the 100 year Air Force experiment

Never say never! eh old boy.:ok:

FB

[Biggus]

Maybe if the RAF is going heavily down the UAV/RPV/drone (whatever they are called this week) route in the years to come then they should be looking to base them somewhere with relatively clear airspace, where training flights (presuming there are any) are less of an issue...... such as Lossie perhaps?

[nav attacking]

Biggus

Why on earth would the Army and Navy allow us to fly their RPVs. They are the ones who will end up using their product...

[Biggus]

n/a

While my knowledge of RPVs is very limited I thought that there was a requirement for a recognised pilot (instrument rating, etc) to operate it in the vicinity of controlled airspace. I could be wrong.

While the Army operate the pint sized, elastic band wound up, RPVs that just go up a few hundred feet and look over the next hill, street, etc, the RAF currently operate the big toys. I was under the impression that is not about to change in the near term.

No doubt some expert in UAVs (39 Sqn maybe) will provide more detailed insight, if anyone with that background can be bothered to read a thread on Lossie..... ;)

[bobward]

As a scribbler there's one thing that occurs to me. Whilst people are talking about squadrons, no one is talking about the number of jets on those squadrons, are they?

If you cut down on the numbers of jets per unit, that would make it much easier to squeeze six squadrons into one base, wouldn't it?

I don't think anyone is absolutely certain that Marham is 'safe' just yet. The great thing about aircarft is that they are mobile....


Has anyone thought that they could move the Tornados back to Cottesmore?:ooh:

The only certainty is that nothing is certain anymore.....

[Willard Whyte]

Is it sensible to concentrate all 'front line'* RAF bases up and down the A1(?)

*Apologies to those folk who will be flying out of BZN in a couple of years time.

[vecvechookattack]

It would be sad to see HMS Fulmar close but as always it is inevitable....Unless the RAF can wrestle up a few more aircraft to fly from their it doesn't make commercial sense to keep it open.

[just another jocky]

I don't think anyone is absolutely certain that Marham is 'safe' just yet. The great thing about aircarft is that they are mobile....


Has anyone thought that they could move the Tornados back to Cottesmore?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/icon25.gif

The only certainty is that nothing is certain anymore.....

There's certainly an awful lot of BAE's finest engineers now based at Marham. Can't see too many of them wanting to move to Lossie. Cottesmore may be a different story however as it's closer to 'home' over in Blackpool, but I think the 4 hangars of CMU(F) may be a bit expensive to move (again) for only a few years before they are no longer needed.

[sooms]

1. Lossie Closes
2. XV(R) to Leuchars
3. Rest to Marham
4. JSF to Marham post GR4
5. Base Carriers at Kings Lynn

Problem solved!!!

[just another jocky]

5. Base Carriers at Kings Lynn

You could park 'em end-to-end and XV (R) could use them as a relief landing ground! :E

[ZH875]

It would be sad to see HMS Fulmar close


It isn't HMS Fulmar, it is RAF Lossiemouth.

It was RAF Lossiemouth before it became HMS Fulmar, and became RAF Lossiemouth after HMS Fulmar.

HMS Fulmar 'sank' in 1972

[Willard Whyte]

I think he probably knew that - and it's probably had the desired effect.

[MFC_Fly]

Easy Street wrote...
The enormous pan at Marham that 9 and 31 sqns used for ~6 years after their return from Bruggen is currently unoccupiedGoogle Earth must be out of date then as I can only see 2 'small' pans at Marham (one with spots for 14 aircaft and the other with spots for 9)! OK, so it also has 2 HAS sites with space for 12 aircraft each.

Lossie also has 2 pans with spots for 13 and 8 aircraft on the near side. But, Lossie also has a pan with spots for 32 aircraft on the far side as well as the 2 HAS sites with space for 9 aircraft each.

Total current marked aircraft spots at Marham = 47. Total current marked aircraft spots at Lossie = 71.

Lossie is also close to low flying training areas, weapons ranges, will be the most northerly military airfield left in the UK, etc, etc, etc. So it is almost guaranteed that the GR4 base to be closed will be.....

:eek: RAF LOSSIEMOUTH :eek:

[just another jocky]

They managed 2 Sqns on the nth side at Marham previously, as stated earlier. And each HAS site currently holds 2 Sqns, with 8 ac each each. So whilst there is more space at Lossie, there is enough space at Marham and you wouldn't have to reloacte/recruit 300+ civvie engineers/management plus 4 hangars full of specialist equipment. And don't overestimate the draw of low flying - somewhat of a legacy pastime atm I fear, and we have 2 decent A-G ranges down here in Ingerland, and the bulk of the Army is a lot closer, as is civilisation, and it's warmer, and.....:p

[Willard Whyte]

But stand fast; the Moray economy is still the crucial issue.

They're always looking for places to stick wind farms, and with no airfield radars to worry about...

[Finningley Boy]

I can't see the logic in trying to sueeze every Tornado unit onto one base, either Lossiemouth or Marham. They've had their Strategic/Piggy Bank review! They shouldn't try to do something daft like try and get upwards of a 100 Tonkas at anyone airfield in the UK. I imagine they should leave everything as it is for now. When the fourth Tiffy sqn stands up at Leuchars, I reckon that's when the next GR4 sqn will bid adeiu to you and you and you and you and you!!! Tum titty tum tum tum tum tum, tum titty tum tum tum.

This is when the question poking everything left into one cupboard at Marham for e.g. will arise.:)

FB

[Willard Whyte]

Well, all our transport assets will be at BZN soon enough, so there's a precedent.

[Easy Street]

Quote:
But stand fast; the Moray economy is still the crucial issue.
They're always looking for places to stick wind farms, and with no airfield radars to worry about...


How does that help the locals, though? Could we employ them in giant hamster wheels to keep the generators turning on still-air days? That would certainly help the Scottish government improve their health and obesity stats...

[Willard Whyte]

They'll need people to fix 'em. Damn things keep breaking down by many accounts.

Oh, do try not to take everything so seriously.

[sooms]

Bearing in mind the MP for Moray being SNP, and the fact that Scotland is hardly a CONDEM stronghold I don't think they will worrying too much about votes up there. Especially with Norfolk being a CONDEM stronghold.

I wonder if one of the reasons why the St.Athan Training Academy was binned was due to it being in a Labour stronghold and our friend Mr Hain (MP for Neath) championed the campaign to move it there.

Not that politico's would be so childish?

[cornish-stormrider]

now before you all yell beadwindow - Marham holds the magic boxes to hold the sunshine toys - at least according to wikilies.........

Does lossie??

[Jayand]

Thats fine except the RAF doesn't have any box's of sunshine anymore, no need for beadwindow all open source.

[Finningley Boy]

now before you all yell beadwindow - Marham holds the magic boxes to hold the sunshine toys - at least according to wikilies.........

Does lossie??


I think possibly yes, remember it was the initial home of the Buccaneer. First under the F.A.A. then the R.A.F.

Of course that doesn't mean they store the WE177s there necessarily. But at the same time I thin it is a mute point as far as Marham is concerned. If we are to get back in the business of air-launched nuclear weapons again, I think the concentration will be more on the F35C?!?

FB:E

[A2QFI]

If any Army units, on return from Germany presumably, are sent to Moray where will they go to train and exercise? Otterburn? If I recall we did have Paratroops based in Colchester and the aircraft they used to jump out of in Wiltshire which wasn't very clever!

[ORAC]

In London, the MoD said that “no decisions have been taken” about Lossiemouth’s future, which will be decided in a “bases review” expected “early next year”. I would presume that any drawdown of the GR4 fleet to 6 Sqns would not take place until next year anyway, and if MR was chosen as the only base, LM could stay open for several years, the same way St Mawgan did in the south-west, for JMCs etc. That would be enough to cover any gap if/until the army expressed an interest.