ATC

[takingover]

I'm the first to say that guys & girls in ATC around the Gulf do a fantastic job.

However, what is with the queue jumping in the hold?

Today, we had just turned outbound the hold at Bubin when the guy about to enter behind us was sent straight through & we were turned in behind him. This is the second time this has happened to me at Bubin.

Anyone know why this would happen?

[Short Approach?]

If the controller feels that the guy behind you will fit better in the sequence and thereby give the correct spacing to APP you'll be overtaken. But it is NOT airline specific nepotism.

[MaffiFaloos]

Dubai ATC on the whole is a reasonable outfit, the rest of the Gulf however does not live up to the standards expected of modern ATC. Controllers are lax lazy and generally unworthy of the trust we place in them. Doha probably ranks second followed by a dire Bahrain. Anywhere in Saudi is a joke regrettably, unanswered calls are common place and the lack of standard phraseology constantly leads to ambiguity and mistakes. Disappointingly change of any sort is slow, indeed recent steps regarding early descents particularly in Bahrain are inefficient at best and from this side of the fence entirely unnecessary wasting both fuel and time. 10 mile separation into Bahrain doesn't help and Gulf Air as usual are ineffectual, unable to apply pressure and correct the glaring faults and frustration pilots are forced to deal with on a daily basis. Can we hear from ATC on this and start a sensible and constructive discussion on how to improve?

[ferris]

Controllers are lax lazy and generally unworthy of the trust we place in them. Doha probably ranks second followed by a dire Bahrain then

Can we hear from ATC on this and start a sensible and constructive discussion on how to improve? No, genius.

[Trader]

Thankfully Mafilooser doesn't represent the thoughts or attitudes of the average pilot.

[Guy D'ageradar]

However, what is with the queue jumping in the hold?

As SA says, depends on the circumstances.

If, for example, you arrive at bubin at FL165, descending at the seemingly emirates' standard 300fpm and the East sector's seemingly standard 300kts (but don't say that on transfer) :D:ugh::ugh: for RWY30L and the guy behind is at a somewhat more reasonable 11000ft/250kts :ok: and descending reasonably then a) you will NOT fit in the sequence at that speed, b) you will NOT get the height off for a straight-in WHILE reducing speed to fit in with everyone else (yep, you're not alone out there) and c) it is far simpler to give you the required mileage to lose the altitude and fit you in as appropriate than to try to force a bad situation which will almost certainly not work, thus losing a gap on final and delaying everyone.

And that's without the 380 ahead who SAYS he's doing 160 kts but is really doing 135 !:ugh::ugh::ugh:

It may not have been like that but I've seen it sooo many times......

[ferris]

Takingover Anyone know why this would happen? As stated, if the controller judges that the one just entering is going to fit perfectly behind the one ahead of YOU, then it is sometimes more efficient to allow the a/c to do that, let you run around the hold, then fit perfectly behind him. The culture at the UAE ACC is not such that: the landing order is strictly maintained by the order of arriving at the hold (as it is in other places). It takes a little adjustment to get used to, if you are used to it being so elsewhere. For example: There are 4 inbound in a bunch (all roughly the same speed for simplicity). 2 is 6nm behind 1, 3 is 4 nm behind 2, and 4 is 10nm behind 3. The sequence can be achieved by slowing 2 down, slowing and vectoring 3 and 4. OR just give 2 one holding pattern. 2 becomes last, and everyone else just continues on in. It can be more efficient to just muck one a/c around. It's a simplistic scenario, but I hope it conveys the idea. In other places I have worked, you wouldn't think of doing it this way, but it is just another way of achieving the sequence- especially when 1, 2, 3 and 4 are all EK a/c.

[BlueSkye]

Much easier to spin one aircraft than to vector three or four in an already tight airspace.

NOTE: As Short Approach stated, this will happen to EK more often simply because there is more of them. There is no favoritism at play here.

[Trader]

Guy (and other ATC types) it might be helpful if we were told on entry that 300 knots was good (or 270..whatever) along with track miles to tdown. Most guys won't do 300 fpm if they know they need 1500fpm to make it. I always give 1000 fpm but I know many do less so they don't get low burning fuel.

It won't take long for everyone to do what you need if you tell them the track miles remaining. Or, conversly, with each new guy telling him 1000 fpm or more (which seems to be happening now with some controllers). We're like dogs--tell 'em enough times, till it becomes habit, and you'll get it everytime :)

[Guy D'ageradar]

Trader,

I agree with you entirely - too few of us give track miles anything like as often as we should. Personally, I try to on first call but it isn't always possible.

As for the speed - that was my pitiful attempt at sarcasm - all to often, we are vectoring you guys all aove the sky at 230kts, trying to arrange a sequence and the center keeps everyone else coming in behind at 300+ kts until the last possible second 'cos it means they don't have to do, as one of my colleagues puts it " some of that ATC ****"!!

[BlueSkye]

Guy, it appears that you just can not let a chance slip by to get a dig in at the ACC. If you want something then scan out, pre-plan, call us and you'll get it. If not, I will work the aircraft to my requirements as long as I need to.

EDIT: Just a reminder that BUBIN & DESDI is still inside the ACC's area of reponsibility.

[Rule3]

Mate if you are "Vectoring aircraft all over the sky at 230 kts" then the person in Dubai "RESPONSIBLE" for calling the spacing isn't doing his job.:{
Another nice attempt to deflect the blame, := and no I don't work in the UAE ACC.

[Rule3]

Impossible to have " a sensible and constructive discussion" with a "Sky God" like Maffi.;)

[Guy D'ageradar]

Guy, it appears that you just can not let a chance slip by to get a dig in at the ACC.

Not at all - many of the guys do a great job with not much airspace to do it in.:ok:

I'm simply venting my frustration that some people don't look beyond their own traffic - many's the time where an aircraft left to run through bubin will get a straight in approach, however, because it's sent direct sodad and left hi-speed 'til the last minute, that won't happen. (Yes, I know that's to avoid vectoring the one behind - maybe if HE was slower, it wouldn't be neccessary. etc. etc.)

We shouldn't really be trying to teach each other to suck eggs, I know but it does get frustrating.

It doesn't matter what the spacing is if the no1 through bubin arrives too fast and there are already 5 downwind from desdi.

[Guy D'ageradar]

The guy will be at 250K from SODAD as per the arrival. What else are you expecting? If you want something other than your dictated spacing and speeds as per the arrivals you probably better ask for it. The flow arrangements into Dubai are certainly lacking but expecting the ACC to give you anything other than what you ask for is a bit rich.

Not what I am saying at all.

My point is that just about any modern aircraft (don't get me started on a330s or a380s) will take quite a few miles to reduce from 300kts+ to 250. Giving them 250 5 miles before sodad doesn't cut it - they'll cross sodad at 290 or so, often way too high, with the prededing in the sequence 6 miles or so ahead and much slower.

The Star says 250kts AT sodad - NOT reduce to on crossing.

[Rule3]

Guy, sorry but your figures don't add up, or should that be subtract. Are you suggesting that a reduction over 5 miles, approx 45 seconds an aircraft is only going to lose 20 knots slowing from 310 to 290. I don't think so. As for the 6 miles statement........
Time for a new Name Guy D'Exaggerater.;)

[falconeasydriver]

You radar guys, and director guys need to visit LHR or LGW to see how it should/can be done.
I've had 2 of the worst vectors over the last few days, one from a guy with an Oz accent, and one from a guy with a USA/Canadian accent. Whats so hard to understand...jets dont like to go down and slow down! :ugh:
You need to appraise us of the bigger picture...give us track miles fer fecks sake! give us a clue, give us anything but crappy unrealistic vectors that make me try to mitigate your mistakes/poor technique.
Sorry if this is a rant, but it needs to be said...and yes I know its a tough job from the other side of the headphones..but come on..."EK blah blah expect 30R 25 trk miles" how hard is that?

[Rule3]

Mr. Driver Dear Sir,
Everyone understands your bitch, and it is a valid one, however you obviously have no idea how things happen in the Magical Kingdom of Dubailand. This isn't Heathrow, or any major airport in any first world state, it is Dubailand.

Remember the Golden Rule. The man with the gold makes the rules.
Your big boss, point blank refuses to accept slot times, Premium pricing, CFMS etc. etc.

Therefore if "YOUR" Scheduling people continue to programme 20 or more arrivals in a 30 to 40 minute time frame, and allow everyone else to arrive at the same time what do you expect.:{

[pool]

Don't shoot at each other. We're both just messengers of a bigger problem.

I've worked on both sides and know how difficult it is. The real problem is that the higher ups of both of us front fighters are morons that were refused the active part due to insufficient skills. They are setting the rules, so don't be surprised they're inadequate.

I have no simple and quick solution to the problem either, all I know that it's not the fault of the voice coming out of the speaker.

[falconeasydriver]

Rule 3, I think perhaps you have missed my point.....
I'm having a moan about the poor standard I've experienced with respect to tactical vectoring, and the unrealistic expectation of certain controllers in terms of us being able to manage our profile/energy/speed.

I accept wholeheartedly the limitations and stresses on the system thanks to EK's hub principle, and of course the lack of any real management plan..

All that being understood, I still fail to see why a guy working approach can't give a reasonably accurate indication of track miles from perhaps 6-8000ft (20-30 miles etc) so that we drivers can hit our energy gates in an efficient and accurate fashion. It happens in plenty of other places, with many many more airspace constraints than in the terminal area here in DXB.
Certainly I accept that you guys are under as much pressure as us to maximize flows, but it works very very well at places like LHR, LGW, FRA, and CDG (when they arent on strike) when aircraft are picked off the holds...and streamed in...so why not here?
It appears to me that the prefered method is the "made in the USA" technique of cutting and chopping guys on all sorts of headings, speeds etc...then issuing and expecting us to achieve the required speed constraints and profiles despite being kept 2-3000 feet high, and 80kts fast:ugh:
Tell me I'm being unreasonable?

[ferris]

I still fail to see why a guy working approach can't give a reasonably accurate indication of track miles from perhaps 6-8000ft (20-30 miles etc) so that we drivers can hit our energy gates in an efficient and accurate fashion. Of course it could be done better- most involved understand that. However, the Dinosaur Dane in charge of ATM is not up to the job- and worse, won't allow any input from anyone who might have a clue. He actively makes chamges that reduce the ability of ATC to manage traffic flow. His experience is from the the 70s (the Copenhagen donut system, for christ sake!!). He understands nothing about modern ATM, and until he moves on, nothing will change. This topic arises annually or so, but until someone high up realises how much money is wasted by this bluff-and-bluster master of "ATC by excell", let the disorganised flow continue. The controllers are just working with what they are given.

[CuitoCuanavale]

Pool has provided the best answer, that being - ' ..dont blame the voice coming out the speaker...'. Finger pointing and apportioning blame is an exercise in futility. Air Traffic Control is dynamic (point of fact aviation as an entity is dynamic) and therefore even the most articulated and institution supported plans can and will change.

Icao's mandate, as dated as it is, still provides the most solid foundation...Safe, Orderly and Expeditious. Compromising in any manner the first two in order to achieve the latter will never, in any quarter off the world be met by any level of empathy or understanding.

I have tremendous respect for any and all controllers who sit in front of the coal-face, as-it-where, in todays ever expanding aviation industry, as it is an extremely demanding and in many cases unforgiving environment.

[Rule3]

Falconeasydriver.
I said " Everyone understands your bitch and it is a valid one." So I did not miss you point, I agreed with you.:ok:
The problem is that with no proper system in place and the " RESPONSIBLE " person in Dubai calling the wrong spacing to UAE ACC, the Dubai Approach controller ends up with too many aircraft and not enough landing slots, so aircraft are vectored all over the sky while they play catch up.
BTW I do not work in Dubai. I have many years Approach and Flow experience in more complicated airspace with a big mix of Turbo Props and jets. On First contact we ALWAYS gave distance to run, even if straight in, and type of approach expected.

[Canoehead]

Although DXB has has some very sharp controllers, what is missing here is a sequencing "tool" or software which eliminates all the issues mentioned in the posts above.

This software, often known as an Arrival Manager, is used at most other 'first world' airports. It meters the arrivals in a timely fashion so that all involved know what to expect, and the operation is a smooth one, no matter how busy.

The practical application in DXB would be the following:

-Once captured by UAE ACC radar, the system assigns a landing time to each arriving aircraft based on an arrival flow number (say 30/hr)
-Aircraft are held at Desdi/Bubin. Because they have a landing time, the system also generates a depart Desdi/Bubin time. Pilots are issued this time, and must depart, or are vectored to depart at that time. So all delays are absorbed in the hold at higher altitudes.
-Then each aircraft flies a profile descent, and with minimal vectoring turns a 10-15 final, landing 5 miles behind the guy in front. Piece of cake!

So, you ask, why aren't we using this?!? I don't know where to start.............:ugh:

[Guy D'ageradar]

Canoehead,

As I should think you are aware, arrivals manager trials are pending in the UAE centre.

Rule 3 Are you suggesting that a reduction over 5 miles, approx 45 seconds an aircraft is only going to lose 20 knots slowing from 310 to 290. I don't think so

Depends on how it's done but I would be very surprised to see ANY modern widebody, flown within the prevalent SOPs of today's operators, maintain 300+ kts until 5 miles before a given waypoint, be instructed to reduce to 250 5 miles out and cross the given point at less than 280-290. We all know it CAN be done but then I refer you to the answer given by the honourable (?!) Oakape some moments ago.;)

Oakape

Believe me, we are not complete imbeciles and do have some understanding of aircraft performance - there tend to be a fair number of flyers in atc and no, they don't all fly c152s!

The problem with constant descent approaches such as you advocate, is that they really require modern equipment (on our side) and procedures - both of which are sorely lacking in this part of the world. The radar is on the way but don't hold your breath..... As for the procedures - good luck.

As Ferris has stated, the whole of the UAE's procedures are extremely dated but the danish dolt absolutely refuses to allow anything to be changed, after all, they must be perfect as he wrote them!! This leaves the controllers both in Dubai and (particularly) the UAE centre with at least one hand firmly tied behind their backs at all times. Add to that the "f*%K it up and you're gone" mentality and it's clear to see why some allow a margin for error.

With particular regard to Dubai's Bubin arrivals - when it's busy and you call approach at bubin (for RWY30L), there are basically 2 choices for the arrivals controller - direct (or a heading towards) sedpo or right heading 330 or so. IF there is a gap for a straight in, the next factor is your altitude and speed. 11,000ft and 250 kts or so - good chance of the straight in - 17000ft and 300kts - not a hope!

The only other option would be to give a heading of 300 or so, see how you descend and fit in the sequence as appropriate - this however puts you head on to all of the desdi arrivals, neccessitating vertical separation be maintained between the protagonists and I can pretty much guarantee that SOMEONE (esp. if there's a 380 involved!) will be descending at 200fpm or so - thus removing that option or leaving EVERYONE too high.

Therefore, descend at a reasonable rate (in my book 500-1000fpm - if I need more I WILL say so):ok: or suck up the miles and I'll let you know the track miles when it becomes apparent where you will fit in the sequence:E. We don't have the space to do anything else. Sure, you could hold at bubin but they don't have the space either!

Pretty much the same goes for 12L but then you get the occasional added fun of US mil firing fighters off from a carrier directly under you (dont laugh, it happened AGAIN this week) WITHOUT EITHER PRIOR WARNING OR RADIO CONTACT and/or sending a p3 across the CTA who, funnily enough, needs to descend through all of your levels and then immediately climb back through them again. Sometimes they even tell us in advance!:ugh:

[Rule3]

Canoe and Guy,
I was asked to present some ideas on a CFMS some 5 years ago. A flow computer was set up in UAE centre, giving landing slots, based on ETA and updated on radar contact. This would allow the flow controller to assign times for aircraft to be at Bubin and Desdi based on RWY and weather conditions. All acft ex OMAA, OMSJ etc would call and be given a slot departure time. Very simple concept. It was demonstrated to the :mad:Mafia in charge of your operation and flatly rejected.:ugh: As a result you still have the same mess today. I am no longer part of the UAE Circus. I just fire the bullets from the other side of the "Rabbit Proof Fence". ;)

[Hook]

Gentlemen, why all the aggro?
I'm a 10+ years EK pilot and have witnessed the large increases in traffic at DXB since I've been here.
You know what? I think you guys do a great job. No, it's not perfect but then nothing in life is. Yes, there is room for improvement but so is the case for any major airport around the world.
I'm thankful that DXB delays startup to avoid waiting too long at the hold. I hate it when Beijing or Paris or whoever lets me start and taxi only to get to the runway and wait for ever whilst their local boys jump the queue and take-off.
And I still smile when I watch the long line of landing lights of aircraft on the ILS as I'm taxiing to the gate following my landing after good, safe controlling, even if not entirely fuel efficient.

Dubai APP and UAE ACC - you have come a long way. Don't forget the good stuff. Go have a beer and chill out:)

[Guy D'ageradar]

Hook

No aggro - really, just keeping each other on our toes :E

Oakape

Glad to see we're getting back to understanding each other's view of the same problem, which, I think, is the point. :ok:

The quip regarding Emirates, while flippant, had a point. We see a lot of different companies in here, from all over the world. The only one that I can think of that regularly forces us to change the sequence/ delay others through v. slow rates of descent is emirates. Same goes for not flying the instructed speeds (if you CAN'T fly them, let us know, we can then vector accordingly and it is much less of a problem).

While I acknowledge that Emirates have many more movements than anyone else, it does seem bizarre that they are the only (to the best of my knowledge) airline to "challenge" us in this way.