Typhoons grounded

[hammy21]

Eurofighter: Training Flights Temporarily Suspended


(Source: Austrian Ministry of Defence; issued Sept. 15, 2010)


(Issued in German; unofficial translation by defense-aerospace.com)



VIENNA --- The Eurofighter user countries were recommended to discontinue exercise and training flights of the Eurofighter because of a perceived safety problem in the ejection seat.

This is a normal procedure to ensure safety.

The interruption was necessary because, if mishandled, the parachute could become separated from the ejection seat in case of ejection.

Pilots are being trained in the new procedures. Thereafter, the training and exercise operations are resumed.

This measure has no effect on the supervision and monitoring of air space.

Eurofighter will continue to carry out operational missions - so-called A-priority flights - and remains fully operational.

[jimgriff]

Well someone had better let the two that have just greased through here at L/L know!!:eek:

[hammy21]

Certainly not from CBY,no flying here since PM 14/09?

[rogerk]

... and the two that have just parted the grass in my top field here in northern France !!

[jimgriff]

Maybe the same 2? On their way home to sunny Spain??

[scorpion82]

Only training flights have been suspended, aircraft are still standing on QRA, except for Germany.
The grounding is caused by an issue with the Mk16A. Through wrong handling it could happen that the chute disconnects from the pilot. It appears that this happened to the Saudi pilot who died in the crash on August 24.

[Tashengurt]

Hasn't anyone told them that the 'chute's meant to seperate from the seat following ejection?

[Rakshasa]

It's not meant to seperate from the pilot though!

[Tashengurt]

It's not meant to seperate from the pilot though!

No, I can see how that would be problematic.

[bakseetblatherer]

It's not meant to seperate from the pilot though!Those single seat pilots need to man up, sheesh.

When I saw grounded I thought it would be lack of tyres or lack of solid state 'tapes' that record the missions....

[theloudone]

I gather there are other a/c fitted with the same seat !
This will be keeping MB busy, having just got over the issue with the Hawk seat, they now get this.

[Neptunus Rex]

I find it impossible to believe that, after more than half a century of excellence, one of Martin Baker's products would suffer an endemic flaw.

My money is on isolated 'finger trouble' at the coal face.

[theloudone]

Bit more than mere "finger trouble" i am afraid !

[Lord Trenchards Brat]

MB Mk16A are Eurofighter only - I think! Only one other ejection I know of were the succefull ones out of the twin stick, again in Spain.

[r supwoods]

Also Rafale and JSF ....

[Flap62]

Bakseetblatherer,

Given that Scorpion suggested that a Saudi pilot died following seat problems, I think that your comment of

Those single seat pilots need to man up, sheesh

is in exceedingly poor taste.

[bakseetblatherer]

My apologies, only skim read the thread and didn't notice that there had been a death.

[wiggy]

All very sad,.

As I'm sure many of us know "strange" things happen during live ejections that are beyond the foresight of the boffins at MB (and the other seat makers).

Anybody else here old enough to remember the pins fitted to the Koch fasteners on torso harnesses used with MB seats in the 70s? As far as I recall it the retrofit came about as a result of the sad loss of a Harrier pilot ( I think) when he became detached from his 'chute during the ejection process.

[MrBernoulli]

Wiggy, do you mean that 'spring clip' that I have vague recollections of using in JP5s and Victors?

[wiggy]

It was part of the torso harness assembly so I doubt you'd have seen it on the JP, dunno about the Victor.

Basically (?) you had your own personal harness which was attached in part to the seat at each shoulders by a strap which latched into a fastener. As far as I recall it if the fastner(s) got hit by something, say part of the seat body, during the ejection/seat separation process, it was possible for them to come undone ( I seem to recall the medics demonstrating this with a rubber mallet and a fastener during the N. Luffenham course).

The "fix" was an extra pin which was inserted into the fastener body after it was done up, on strapping in, to block release. It was then part of the parachute decent drills to pull the pins -the story was that once the fastners were under tension they couldn't come unlatched accidently :ooh:......

[207592]

Pertinent comment please -oh, sorry, this is the rumour network. Best fact I can find is at:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/8010686/RAF-Typhoon-jets-grounded-amid-safety-concerns.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/8010686/RAF-Typhoon-jets-grounded-amid-safety-concerns.html)

Good time to find the problem. If the only operational type were the Typhoon, and the snag was fundamental .... Maybe scrapping both the Tornado and the Harrier would be a bit risky?

[scorpion82]

The problem is that if not put on correctly the harness's safety belt lock is not really locked and can be opened if something hits it for example and this appears to have happened to the Saudi pilot. On the harness used by Tornado an Phantom pilots for example, there is an additional clip which should prevent the belt lock from opening unintentionally.

[soddim]

The latest post begs the question whether the Saudi pilot was correctly instructed and supervised. I know that they chose to train in Spain instead of at Coningsby - would RAF instruction have avoided this loss or was it an unknown issue?

[Gainesy]

Any news on why he ejected?

[jimgriff]

The QRB has been designed to release the straps when in unlocked position if it is pressed or struck. For normal operation it is in the closed or locked configeration and is a well tried system. This can be an easy mistake to make if not properly checked or drilled. There are visual checks made to see what "mode" it is in when worn and is a reliable piece of kit when used properly.
Does anyone know what happened on ejection to the Saudi pilot? Did harness totally release from him?
The Koch pins were never fitted to seats in the JP or Victor and were only fitted to a limited number seat types fitted in F4J Phantoms*, some Buccs and early Harriers in RAF service. (*-US surplus).

[wiggy]

Thread drift jg but
The Koch pins were only fitted to a limited number seat types fitted in F4J Phantoms...

The F4M seats had the koch pins up until the simplified combined harness was introduced in 80/81.

[soddim]

If my memory serves me still, the reason for the problem with RAF Koch fasteners was that they were fitted upside down - the USAF did not need pins.

[Irish Tempest]

H'mm same seat design as that on JSF... that'll go do well...

[GreenKnight121]

Yes, it will go well... with the seat being "use-tested", de-bugged and fixed in Typhoon before a lot of F-35s get built.

[Tashengurt]

Hang on. IIRC the QRF is 'loaded' by turning against a spring one way which allows the locking plate to be free to float and the harness lugs to be pushed in. The knob is then simply released and that's it locked. It needs no positive action.
To release it's turned a click the opposite way then pressed. When it's in the unlocked it's pretty obvious because the lines don't match.
I stand to be corrected on any of this as it's well over a decade since I saw a QRF and the closest I got to Typhoon kit was the RAF SAM prototypes. (are they still called FAGOTS?)

[Thelma Viaduct]

This is what I were told, and I make no apologies if the info is wrong.

Saudi tips up to sign something, saudi offered a flight in Typhoon at last minute, rush job putting saudi chap in to the seat, pitot covers not removed, Typhoon spazzes out on take off, pilot/instructor in rear seat bangs both out, front seat goes one way, saudi chap the other.

Like I said, may be bo11ocks.

[Stitchbitch]

Tashengurt, almost, it's FCAGTs.
My condolences to the family.

[scorpion82]

RAF Typhoons are flying again.
RAF resumes Eurofighter operations after ejection seat fix-20/09/2010-London-Flightglobal.com (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/09/20/347552/raf-resumes-eurofighter-operations-after-ejection-seat.html)

The Austrian Air Force has resumed flying as well.