Pilots flying for free

[rodrigues]

Guys,

I know this has been discussed variously before, but how legal (or illegal rather) is it for a business to be not paying their pilots? I was under the impression that working for free was a no-no in this country, for any position?

As I suspect, if it is entirely illegal, then why is there not more a culture where offending companies are dobbed in? I've come across plenty of the above mentioned recently where the pilots are made to feel that they're privileged to be flying at all, and renumeration is unheard of.

We need to stop the erosion of the industry, from the bottom up. This includes any of us entering the industry. It's in our invested interest to stand firm.

[Peter Fanelli]

You'll need to elaborate a little.

[HercFeend]

Why do you think it is illegal?

'Forcing' an individual to work for no pay may certainly be illegal (or one would hope - I'm not 100% on the legal definition). However there is a big difference between this and agreeing to work for nothing or not walking away when you find out 'you are one of the privileged few doing it for love'....... It's a free country, to use a cliché, and one can't be forced to remain in slave labour for little or no pay - it's a choice! (just talking aviation here so don't get all low socio-economic classes with no options etc etc on me).

[ZappBrannigan]

That would be my interpretation - and I'd say any legal decision would come down to how the person came to work for nothing in the first place. If a pilot walks into a charter company that pays award rates without complaint and says "I really want to work and I'll do it for nothing" and they accept, not sure if any law's being broken.

They would have to be deemed an employee though, with the employee file that goes with it, and if that same person then demanded to commence being paid 2 weeks later though, and were sacked as a result - then that might be some interesting legal ground.

Couldn't agree more about the erosion of the industry - it's definitely becoming a race to the bottom at all levels of aviation.

[strim]

Whilst flying for free by choice is probably not illegal, the offending 'pilot' should be locked up for being a far king idiot.

[neville_nobody]

Knew of a guy who ran a very successful business and was independently wealthy who used to fly for free for a charter company. Went through GA and into an airline without ever leaving home!!

[Captain Sand Dune]

Knew of a guy who ran a very successful business and was independently wealthy who used to fly for free for a charter company. Went through GA and into an airline without ever leaving home!!
Thereby contributing to the problem. Why not inisist on a minimum remuneration of the appropriate award? If the operator doesn't want to do that, well then, he's independantly wealthy so presumably can afford to pay for his flying.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Unfortunately people are tripping over each other in the race to work for free idiots ! :ugh:

[Ixixly]

Be very careful labelling all people who "Fly for free" as doing something dirty or wrong, theres a difference between "Volunteering your time" and getting something in return or benefitting, and doing it to jump the queue and get to the top a bit quicker at others expense.

Lets not forget organisations like Angel Flight which I don't think anyone would dare label the pilots whom volunteer to fly for free and donate their aircraft as being "Far king idiots", hey strim?

[Peter Fanelli]

Knew of a guy who ran a very successful business and was independently wealthy who used to fly for free for a charter company. Went through GA and into an airline without ever leaving home!!


Was his name Mike?

[Aerodynamisist]

Pilots who work for free should be sodomised, killed and eaten. It's not harmless - it degrades the wages and conditions of every working pilot many of us have mortgages and children to feed.

[206greaser]

I have a very strict rule about not eating anything that I've sodomised.

The context here is certainly important. Volunteering is different to working for free. Anyone who undercuts another pilot by working for less, or for free, is a dog, and not one of "us".

Cheers,
Greaser

[desmotronic]

you get what you pay for in this world.. its all good until it goes all bad

[YPJT]

The root cause of a lot of this is skydiving operators who maintain that they are providing an invaluable service to pilots allowing them to fly their clapped out [insert jump aircraft type] gaining those all important command hours for free.

[arnellis]

I have so far come across 1 pilot who works completely for free, no pay, no salary, for a paid commercial operation. I have heard of many others doing the same, but I have only ever come across the one who actually did it. His justification was simple, "I am getting multi command" and last I heard he had moved onto a regional.

The next category of working for free I have come across is the pilot on the contract with ABN agreement who do extra duties. I can think of numerous pilots who worked 40+hrs for operators doing non flying duties, including using their IT and other experience to complete tasks for the operator for no remuneration of course, which to contract out would have cost big $$$. They would get a few flying hours a week, but never significantly more than everyone else, It worked out to be sub $7 per hour for the 40 hour week. (If they were happy to work for that amount then good luck to them)

Then there is the things people would do to get ahead, those few extra hours a month or quicker progression, this is common in other work places that I have been in as well, so not as exclusive too aviation as the other two. I'm sure most of you who have worked in GA would have seen this.

The other one I noticed is with interviews/door knocking, plenty of guys/girls seem only too happy to offer free services before they are offered a spot or check ride. This in my opinion only makes you an easy target to be taken advantage of in the future. By all means try be competitive, but whats the point in not being paid to do other duties, if you do this you have even less chance of actually getting paid to fly.

I have only worked for 1 year in GA and would hate to know some of the things the guys who have been around for a long long time have seen. Dont get me wrong though, I have no issue with going above and beyond, or doing that little bit extra to help out. but some of the things that happen in GA are ridiculous.
I understand that its highly competitive, and operators will exploit this, which I have seen occur on many occasions. Ultimately its up too you as an individual to keep a minimum standard for yourself, what you will work and not work for, just remember that its a small industry and many will remember you for what you did and did not do.

Happy Flying!

[toolowtoofast]

Was his name Mike?

Surname Hunt?

[Jethro Gibbs]

Volunteering is different to working for free god how hard is this as i said before people are tripping over each other to work for free and believe that this will somehow make them invaluable to some half arsed company that wont pay.:ugh:

[eternity]

dunno if it was Mike Hunt........

maybe Wayne Kerr???

[Worrals in the wilds]

Volunteering is different to working for free

From showbiz, volunteering is fine if it's for a community, not for profit or purely amateur organization.
Working for free for a profit based company that pays other employees, or formerly paid other employees until you showed up and undercut them is scabbery of the highest order.

Dunno if this translates to aviation but that was the unwritten / MEAA rule in the entertainment industry, which (as with aviation) frequently got broken by short sighted, self serving desperadoes who did other people out of paid work.

[Cirronimbus]

I think aviation is a bit like any other industry where there is competition for the relatively few vacancies available. Many employers expect (or at least want) the new employee to have some experience before hiring them. How does a newbie get that experience?

If you were an employer, would you hire the pilot with no experience (just a bare licence) or the one with 500 hours?

A friend of mine worked as a "volunteer" to get experience in a non-aviation job for 6 months (Mon-Fri 9 to 5) to get a $45k a year job. He effectively 'spent' $22k on 'training' to get the required experience. I had the same opportunity but did not want to work for free. He gained the experience required and is now employed and I didn't get the experience and I did not get a job there. Good luck to him.

I'm not advocating working for free but I just wonder how someone who has just gained their CPL, can get the required experience that is needed for a paying job, without resorting to 'buying' time, either by volunteering or paying for a cadetship.

I understand that cadets fill vacancies by effectively paying their own wages while they are training. Once they complete their training, they will be replaced by new cadets paying for their jobs; and so on and so on. Effectively, those positions will always be filled by people who are willing to pay for their own employment (there goes the T+Cs enjoyed by pilots up until now). So what is left for everyone else?

Whether it is in aviation or other industries, it seems as though the employer can sit back and choose someone who is so willing to work, that they will volunteer to get the required experience.

When I go out and start door-knocking with a bare CPL, I expect that it is going to be pretty tough. I can't afford to work for free, so how does one get the experience without under-cutting the other door-knockers?

If I have to buy the experience by hiring a plane and flying joy flights or whatever, I still pay. If I volunteer, I still pay (exchange my time instead of money). So what is the answer? How do I get the experience without volunteering (I still have a way to go yet before getting my CPL so I'm not about to go out destroying eveyone else's T+Cs; I just want to devote my time and resources in the right directions, thanks)?

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Cn

[Checkboard]

It is against the law for you to work without pay. You cannot volunteer to do it for free. (Employment Law: Work Without Pay, salaried employee, own time (http://en.allexperts.com/q/Employment-Law-924/2009/1/Work-Pay.htm))

Work practices to be wary of (http://www.fairwork.gov.au/Things-everyone-should-know/Pages/Work-practices-to-be-wary-of.aspx?role=employees)

[FGD135]

... how legal (or illegal rather) is it for a business to be not paying their pilots?

Only illegal if the non-payment of wages is in violation of the employment terms and conditions.

The remuneration aspect of the employment (or "engagement") could be based on some award, for example. In which case, if the payments to the employee were not in accord with that award then that would be illegal.

The remuneration could be based on some other deal that is unrelated to any award.

And, the remuneration could be ZERO - provided that is the agreed upon figure.

Note that the "terms and conditions" don't need to be in the form of some formalised document. They can simply be a "nudge and a wink".

[Cactusjack]

Better not mention working for free to loud. Boston Bruce is listening !!

[nojwod]

Under Australian law it is illegal for an employer to pay less than award rates for work performed. It is also illegal not to keep time sheets and other details pertaining to a person's employment. Details can be found at the Fair Work Ombudsman website and if in doubt a 1300 number can get an official ruling on a case by case basis.

That said, there are exceptions for trainees, apprentices and the like. If an employee was required to study a particular aspect of a business in order to progress then I can see how a practical component of the course could be required.

However there's a fine line between working and training under these circumstances and I suspect Fair Work Australia and the Ombudsman would take a dim view of a pilot sitting in the left or right hand seat of any revenue producing flight who was supposedly studying. The grey areas might come in where single pilot operations are allowed and the 'trainee' learns from the right hand seat.

[Tee Emm]

Any advice would be appreciated.

Just look after Number One. There are far too many pilots for available jobs in Australian aviation. It has always been thus and will always be that way.

[Ixixly]

You know what YPJT and others, its easy to say that sort of thing from way up on a pedestal, but you tell me how i'm supposed to go get a first time job, when every first time employer out there is constantly telling me they are looking for people with 250+ TT and about 10hours 200 series time... and they are getting it.

The only choices are to either pay for that sort of time by busting your ass in some restaurant or pub or some such, or to get the time for free with skydiving operations or similar operations where your not paid but you get a lot of hours for free and then work that same job in a restaurant or pub or some such and have some money left over, saved away for that all important job finding trip.

Not to mention you spend so long these days looking to get that job that if you choose not to take the free flying when you can you'll undoubtedly become rusty and will decrease your chances of passing that first important check ride.

I've so far been from Brisbane, to Kununurra, Broome, Darwin, Cairns, Townsville and everywhere in between looking for work and you know what, the Skydiving places are the only ones so far whom have been kind enough to give me a go, yeah the first one was unpaid, but you know what, I loved it, every minute of it, being out at the dropzone every weekend with a great bunch of people was fascinating, I learnt a lot from the guy who owned and ran the DZ and from the others there, a few of whom were currently pilots that went out to skydive on the weekend or used to be pilots whom had gotten out of the industry. The current one i'm working for is paid for, not a lot, but when you look at the hours I put in vs what they pay me, its not that bad at all.

I wouldn't go working flying a twin or for a charter company for free, but i'd damned well fly a skydiving operation or a private operation in return for some decent hours and good experience.

So all you know-it-alls out there, whom think you can sit there and tell those of us getting out and busting our arses trying to get the hours to get that first job (which is damned hard these days), get off your bloody high horses and you try giving 200hour pilots a go, cause god knows theres so very few out there who will. Otherwise you can shut your pie holes and stop getting all high and mighty.

[clear to land]

Ixixly-I don't know how to break this to you gently- HARDEN UP!. When I finished my flying training it was just before the 'recession we had to have' with interest rates approaching 25% on personal loans, and not long before a large amount of experienced pilots suddenly came back on the market. Of the guys who started with me, one lost hope and changed careers, the other 5 plus myself never worked for free, and all fly jets now. It took a long time, and a lot of other jobs to keep the food on the table/rent paid (first full time salaried job was just under 3 years after CPL). But persistance paid off. I met one guy in the early 90's in Wyndham, when I had 'moved up'. He was on his third year in Wyndham and still waiting for a start!!! Two months later I met him again and guess what, he got a start. An extreme case maybe, but in the early 90's the average 210 driver up north had 2500 TT- there was NO movement. It took me 16 yrs + to make the RHS of a jet, and I flew with Captains who had started their PPL when I was already a turboprop Capt. That is the luck of the draw with this career. I, nor my peers from my flying school, NEVER worked for free. :ok:

[Peter Fanelli]

I can't believe someone with apparently less than 250 hours is bitching because he can't find employment. Back in my day.........

One thing that guys used to do back in my day was weekend joyrides. This requires the other thing people used to do back in my day and that was frequent hire and fly. This gets you known to the people you hire and fly from and once they can see you are safe you can probably do a deal to hang a shingle out operating under their AOC.
Yes sometimes you may sit out there all day and get no more than 30 minutes in the log book, but that's more than you'll get sitting at home pounding the keyboard.

[The Green Goblin]

Ixixly,

Your attitude needs a bit of re-adjusting. Yeah you may have driven all over the top end looking for work however that will not secure you employment. The trick is to pick a town, wait your turn and try your luck.

This year in Kununurra Pilots started arriving in December and many did not get a start until the end of June and going well into July. Historically this is pretty fast progression.

Rewind to 2005 and it was normal to wait at least a season in town for a start some guys waiting far more. Progression has been pretty fast these last couple of years and so peoples expectations have changed.

Just because you spend a couple of years getting a CPL does not mean you are entitled to a job.

There are 4 stages being a Pilot.

1 - Looking for your first job
2 - 1000 hour Pilot looking for a Piston twin job
3 - 1500-2000 hour Pilot looking for a turbo prop job
4 - Turboprop Captain/High Hour FO looking for a Jet Job.

Each of these stages can take over a year to progress once you have the required time. I know plenty of guys that got their 500 multi in 2008 and have not had any luck cracking a turboprop job yet. These guys are now getting close to 2000 multi command.

I suggest an attitude re-adjustment is in order.

For the record I never worked for free and was paid full time from my first flying job.

GG

[povopilot]

Ixixly, hate to break it to you but you must be doing something wrong.


Everyone I know that went up north the last couple of years has gotten work, and most had less than 250 total and with no 200 series time. Many didnt go north and still got jobs. Tried all the operators around the lake and the flinders? I know of 3 that were gagging for pilots the last few months. The fire spotting in sth WA, Fish spotting in nth WA, Victorian coastal scenic flights, glider towing in VIC/NSW.

You hear it time and time again but it really is just who you know the majority of the time. If youve been to all these places you say you have, then why arent the people you have met giving you the inside info? Have you made enough friends and spent enough time giving people the ****s at the airport, washing planes or pulling beers for the chief pilot at the pub? I met a bloke in pub in the middle of nowhere when i had 190 hrs + inst rating, turns out he knew someone with a twin that needed a pilot.

Total resumes sent and chief pilots talked to - probably over 100, total jobs from said resumes - 0. All jobs have come from word of mouth, friend of a freind etc.

With all the money you have spent on travelling around you probably could have paid to get yourself to 250tt in a C206/210. And not one hired from a flying school or that someone on pprune told you to hire, anything over $300 is bull****. Go find farmer Joe that has one in the barn and say youll give him $90 per hour dry, then find 3 mates and get them to pay for a trip to Cairns to go to the Hookers.

It doesnt affect me as now, as fortunately for me I have quite a good job, but please dont work for free, you are degrading the conditions for most who do have jobs.

[das Uber Soldat]

If you work for free you are saying your time is worthless.

[manymak]

Never underestimate the value of a solid network....

Every job I've gotten so far has been from word of mouth. :ok:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

With all the money you have spent on travelling around you probably could have paid to get yourself to 250tt in a C206/210. And not one hired from a flying school or that someone on PPRuNe told you to hire, anything over $300 is bull****. Go find farmer Joe that has one in the barn and say youll give him $90 per hour dry, then find 3 mates and get them to pay for a trip to Cairns to go to the Hookers.


What have you been smoking?

$90/hr dry for a C206/210?

Ha!
Ha!
Hahahahahahahahahaha!

In your dreams!

I've met some dumb farmers in my time - but not that dumb.

Dr :8

[povopilot]

Well going by the fact that they have probably paid for the aircraft, dont have to pay hangarage, they are probably the only person insured on it (this could obviously make things difficult), the aicraft is probably maintained to day VFR private/airwork, what exactly would the highly expensive operating costs that justify the many people that charge upwards of $300 p/h be?. Combine that with the fact that the whole reason the farmer owns it is because its a tax write off..

[Clare Prop]

For as long as there are schools out there using deceptive marketing about "pilot shortages" and making it look like you'll go from CPL flight test to A380 in about 5 minutes, there will be people with unrealistic expectations.

And people who AGREE to work for less than the award and then grumble about it! :ugh::ugh::*

I've walked away from potential employers who have said they wouldn't put me on the correct wage both in aviation and outside and it's never hurt my career. I've also walked away from any who said..."er, can't pay you this week but I need you to do six days next week" and then drive off in a $50G car. :mad:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Combine that with the fact that the whole reason the farmer owns it is because its a tax write off..

Farmer Brown thinks: "I need a tax write off"! "I know - I'll buy an aeroplane and rent it out to pilot wannabe's for half of what it costs me to operate - that should work well"!

Ha!
Ha!
Hahahahahaha!

Stop it Povo, you're killing me!

Dr :8

PS: Oh dear! I am gonna pee myself (again!).
PPS: Where's Dick? Hey Dick, do you need a tax deduction? I'll give you $200/hr for the CJ! :E

[Ixixly]

Never said I had less than 250hr TT, I have a bit closer to 350hr TT, and I wouldn't have anywhere near that if I had the same attitude that a lot of you seem to have. I'm well ahead of my peers who finished at the flying school and many others I met in my brief time doing an "Aviation Degree", lots of them still sitting back home with barely any more hours than they had when they finished.

I've had the odd job here and there, some skydiving stuff, some private stuff as well and only the current skydiving gig and one of the private flights i've done have been paid.

Never said I deserved a job straight off the bat, if I had that mentality I would still be sitting back home, the fact is i've gotten out there over the last 20months and realised its a hard bloody slog, but it'd be damned near impossible if I never took what I could get. I've done the best I can networking, met a lot of good people and picked up a lot of tips here and there and gotten damned close only to miss out by an hour or two in some cases cause someone got the news just that bit faster than me. Yeah, last year has been crud unfortunately, I know people who finished a bare few months before me and got jobs almost straight away, then a few months later its all kinda gone to crud. Even the chief pilots i've met along the way have said the same thing sometimes "If only you'd finished your CPL 3months earlier and gotten here then we would have probably taken you on!!", such is the way of life.

So once again, don't assume you know me, I realise there have been harder points in Aviations History, by no means do I feel I deserve a job and I realise its still going to be a hard slog to get to that first one.

[onezeroonethree]

Start a sticky thread and start naming & shaming pilots who agree to undercut the rest - and name and shame the companies who are accepting this crap

[kingRB]

Ixixly seriously, you must have bad BO or something :confused:

I have been putting out for as much flying as I can post CPL, and in a year after getting my licence I had a few private gigs flying some people around, and also have now been at a relatively "quiet" DZ or 2 for only 11 months and am about to crack 500 hours, and I get paid extremely well for that flying by all accounts. At least 3 of my mates who got their CPL well after me are all employed fulltime and now have more hours than me. Only reason I have not pursued a full time gig yet is because I wanted to have the funds ready to go for ME/CIR, so I have continued working a desk job full time saving for it while I fly meat bombs on the weekend.

I think you need a break from thinking you are doing it so hard.. Sure, hours are not handed to you, but in my limited experience of the game so far, if you a passionate about making a career for yourself and are willing to stick at it, its really not as hard as you try and make it out to be.

[Tee Emm]

That is the luck of the draw with this career. I, nor my peers from my flying school, NEVER worked for free. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

And that makes you a bloody hero of course. Don't you just love the self righteous attitude. :mad:

[clear to land]

Tee-em, it is not self righteous-just a simple statement of fact! Did you read the bit about flying with jet Captains who still had a student licence whilst I was flying a turboprop?? With this career you have to accept that a lot of it is timing, and the other part is persistance (unless of course you are related to someone...). Where is the self righteousness in that??

[Aeromuz]

Its encouraging to see most here people agree that working for free degrades the entire profession from the bottom all the way to the top.

For those of you who may be tempted to work for free...you spend good money on getting your qualification and should get paid once you start working. Any employer who believes they are doing you a "favour" by giving you a job but not paying you is laughing all the way to the bank! Get some respect for the proffesion and yourself and ensure you get paid for what you do, be it fly a C152 or a C441!!

The current potential for airline T&Cs to degrade further with J*s plans shows why we as a pilot group must work together.

Even if you may be some rich guy who "doesnt want to be paid for flying because you doing for the love" that still contributes to the problem of employers not paying what they should. Take the money then give it to say...Angel Flight

I have no problem with the pilots who give their time to Angel Flight type charitys...its not a commercial venture as such and many of them fly their own aircraft.

If you have to pay for some hours to get your magic 10 command on the C200 series then so be it...its cheaper than an instructor rating or a MECIR.

As has already been said networking is one of the best ways at getting your next job and getting the gig is pretty much a case of "right place, right time" however the key is persistance. Securing the first job will always be the hardest part, however once you have it thats when your career really starts and how far you go is totally up to you and a spot of luck.

Safe landings

Muz

[Aerodynamisist]

I can't find any good recipes for scab anywhere on the net, I suspect the meat would be Soft with little need for marinating or tenderising, the complete lack of a spine may make it easier to carve.

[FGD135]

Unnecessarily inflammatory post Aerodynamisist.

You obviously have no idea what "scab" (in the IR context) means. This topic has nothing to do with scabs. Pilots that fly for free are not scabs.

[MaxHelixAngle]

For as long as there is newbie pilots, there will be pilot's willing to work for free, very sad fact but true.

Can I point out that any commercial operation is either viable and able to pay pilots as per the award or unsustainable and should be wound up. The logic suggested by some that under 250hr TT pilot's MUST work for very little or free is so so false. If we all refused to fly for free the same jobs would exist, everyone would be paid and our industry would be improved.

The problem is that there is always pilots willing to subvert the award and work for free thereby artificially placing themselves above pilots who deserve the job. In saying this, I can empathise with new pilots trying to get their first job facing the question of whether they are prepared to work for free or potentially wait longer and find a paying job. It is hard, It is unfair, It does take persistence.

For those who are considering working for free I will just say this: Remember you are taking a job off someone else who deserves to be getting paid for it, sure someone else may have also done this to you but are you comfortable perpetuating it? No excuses, it is wrong, even if plenty of people do it.

For those highly critical of pilots working for free: Sure it's not right, but remember what it was like starting in this industry, getting a first job can be very stressful and demoralising time. Talk of a scab list for newbie pilots is not the way to go, to address this issue we need to start on leadership from the top. What do I mean by leadership from the top? Airline pilot unions, Chief Pilots, Chief Flying Instructors. I mean why in the world are CP in these organisations not getting involved and putting an end to this?

Leadership from the top down boys and girls.

Regards,
MHA

[Andy_RR]

Given there's a notional finite amount of money in the economy willing to be spent on flying things and people about, then if the guys at the top of the pilot heap are on quarter-million salaries, it is self-evident that the ones at the bottom will be working for nearly nothing if there are too many of them in total.

Now if you professional pilot lot are as communist/unionist as you all appear to be judging by repeated posting here on PPRuNe about the issue, then how about all working according to his/her ability and taking according to his/her need. That should fix it!

The alternative (capitalist) model is to stop complaining and get out there and start your own airline if you want to fly. I mean, this management stuff is easy, isn't it? You should be able to do it inbetween the loadsheets and the refuelling duties, surely?

[ospreydriver]

There is no such thing as "working for free," legally, unless you own and maintain the aircraft.

The FAA holds that flight time is, in itself, compensation, which is why you can't "hire" a private pilot to ferry an aircraft, even if the only pay is free flight time. You should have a comm ticket to do that.

Now, do I think it sucks that some people will take slave wages, or maybe no wages, to work in aviation. Unfortunately, that's the consequence of being in a field widely regarded as being cool and glamorous. Now, we all know that it is, indeed, cool, but not at all glamorous. It becomes the nature of the beast that entry-level jobs in such industries aren't going to pay much. Same as acting, for instance. Then again, no one goes $50K in debt to learn to act.