Pilots flying for free
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Pilots flying for free
Guys,
I know this has been discussed variously before, but how legal (or illegal rather) is it for a business to be not paying their pilots? I was under the impression that working for free was a no-no in this country, for any position?
As I suspect, if it is entirely illegal, then why is there not more a culture where offending companies are dobbed in? I've come across plenty of the above mentioned recently where the pilots are made to feel that they're privileged to be flying at all, and renumeration is unheard of.
We need to stop the erosion of the industry, from the bottom up. This includes any of us entering the industry. It's in our invested interest to stand firm.
I know this has been discussed variously before, but how legal (or illegal rather) is it for a business to be not paying their pilots? I was under the impression that working for free was a no-no in this country, for any position?
As I suspect, if it is entirely illegal, then why is there not more a culture where offending companies are dobbed in? I've come across plenty of the above mentioned recently where the pilots are made to feel that they're privileged to be flying at all, and renumeration is unheard of.
We need to stop the erosion of the industry, from the bottom up. This includes any of us entering the industry. It's in our invested interest to stand firm.
Last edited by rodrigues; 6th Sep 2010 at 16:34.
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Why do you think it is illegal?
'Forcing' an individual to work for no pay may certainly be illegal (or one would hope - I'm not 100% on the legal definition). However there is a big difference between this and agreeing to work for nothing or not walking away when you find out 'you are one of the privileged few doing it for love'....... It's a free country, to use a cliché, and one can't be forced to remain in slave labour for little or no pay - it's a choice! (just talking aviation here so don't get all low socio-economic classes with no options etc etc on me).
'Forcing' an individual to work for no pay may certainly be illegal (or one would hope - I'm not 100% on the legal definition). However there is a big difference between this and agreeing to work for nothing or not walking away when you find out 'you are one of the privileged few doing it for love'....... It's a free country, to use a cliché, and one can't be forced to remain in slave labour for little or no pay - it's a choice! (just talking aviation here so don't get all low socio-economic classes with no options etc etc on me).
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That would be my interpretation - and I'd say any legal decision would come down to how the person came to work for nothing in the first place. If a pilot walks into a charter company that pays award rates without complaint and says "I really want to work and I'll do it for nothing" and they accept, not sure if any law's being broken.
They would have to be deemed an employee though, with the employee file that goes with it, and if that same person then demanded to commence being paid 2 weeks later though, and were sacked as a result - then that might be some interesting legal ground.
Couldn't agree more about the erosion of the industry - it's definitely becoming a race to the bottom at all levels of aviation.
They would have to be deemed an employee though, with the employee file that goes with it, and if that same person then demanded to commence being paid 2 weeks later though, and were sacked as a result - then that might be some interesting legal ground.
Couldn't agree more about the erosion of the industry - it's definitely becoming a race to the bottom at all levels of aviation.
Knew of a guy who ran a very successful business and was independently wealthy who used to fly for free for a charter company. Went through GA and into an airline without ever leaving home!!
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Knew of a guy who ran a very successful business and was independently wealthy who used to fly for free for a charter company. Went through GA and into an airline without ever leaving home!!
Be very careful labelling all people who "Fly for free" as doing something dirty or wrong, theres a difference between "Volunteering your time" and getting something in return or benefitting, and doing it to jump the queue and get to the top a bit quicker at others expense.
Lets not forget organisations like Angel Flight which I don't think anyone would dare label the pilots whom volunteer to fly for free and donate their aircraft as being "Far king idiots", hey strim?
Lets not forget organisations like Angel Flight which I don't think anyone would dare label the pilots whom volunteer to fly for free and donate their aircraft as being "Far king idiots", hey strim?
Knew of a guy who ran a very successful business and was independently wealthy who used to fly for free for a charter company. Went through GA and into an airline without ever leaving home!!
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Pilots who work for free should be sodomised, killed and eaten. It's not harmless - it degrades the wages and conditions of every working pilot many of us have mortgages and children to feed.
I have a very strict rule about not eating anything that I've sodomised.
The context here is certainly important. Volunteering is different to working for free. Anyone who undercuts another pilot by working for less, or for free, is a dog, and not one of "us".
Cheers,
Greaser
The context here is certainly important. Volunteering is different to working for free. Anyone who undercuts another pilot by working for less, or for free, is a dog, and not one of "us".
Cheers,
Greaser
The root cause of a lot of this is skydiving operators who maintain that they are providing an invaluable service to pilots allowing them to fly their clapped out [insert jump aircraft type] gaining those all important command hours for free.
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I have so far come across 1 pilot who works completely for free, no pay, no salary, for a paid commercial operation. I have heard of many others doing the same, but I have only ever come across the one who actually did it. His justification was simple, "I am getting multi command" and last I heard he had moved onto a regional.
The next category of working for free I have come across is the pilot on the contract with ABN agreement who do extra duties. I can think of numerous pilots who worked 40+hrs for operators doing non flying duties, including using their IT and other experience to complete tasks for the operator for no remuneration of course, which to contract out would have cost big $$$. They would get a few flying hours a week, but never significantly more than everyone else, It worked out to be sub $7 per hour for the 40 hour week. (If they were happy to work for that amount then good luck to them)
Then there is the things people would do to get ahead, those few extra hours a month or quicker progression, this is common in other work places that I have been in as well, so not as exclusive too aviation as the other two. I'm sure most of you who have worked in GA would have seen this.
The other one I noticed is with interviews/door knocking, plenty of guys/girls seem only too happy to offer free services before they are offered a spot or check ride. This in my opinion only makes you an easy target to be taken advantage of in the future. By all means try be competitive, but whats the point in not being paid to do other duties, if you do this you have even less chance of actually getting paid to fly.
I have only worked for 1 year in GA and would hate to know some of the things the guys who have been around for a long long time have seen. Dont get me wrong though, I have no issue with going above and beyond, or doing that little bit extra to help out. but some of the things that happen in GA are ridiculous.
I understand that its highly competitive, and operators will exploit this, which I have seen occur on many occasions. Ultimately its up too you as an individual to keep a minimum standard for yourself, what you will work and not work for, just remember that its a small industry and many will remember you for what you did and did not do.
Happy Flying!
The next category of working for free I have come across is the pilot on the contract with ABN agreement who do extra duties. I can think of numerous pilots who worked 40+hrs for operators doing non flying duties, including using their IT and other experience to complete tasks for the operator for no remuneration of course, which to contract out would have cost big $$$. They would get a few flying hours a week, but never significantly more than everyone else, It worked out to be sub $7 per hour for the 40 hour week. (If they were happy to work for that amount then good luck to them)
Then there is the things people would do to get ahead, those few extra hours a month or quicker progression, this is common in other work places that I have been in as well, so not as exclusive too aviation as the other two. I'm sure most of you who have worked in GA would have seen this.
The other one I noticed is with interviews/door knocking, plenty of guys/girls seem only too happy to offer free services before they are offered a spot or check ride. This in my opinion only makes you an easy target to be taken advantage of in the future. By all means try be competitive, but whats the point in not being paid to do other duties, if you do this you have even less chance of actually getting paid to fly.
I have only worked for 1 year in GA and would hate to know some of the things the guys who have been around for a long long time have seen. Dont get me wrong though, I have no issue with going above and beyond, or doing that little bit extra to help out. but some of the things that happen in GA are ridiculous.
I understand that its highly competitive, and operators will exploit this, which I have seen occur on many occasions. Ultimately its up too you as an individual to keep a minimum standard for yourself, what you will work and not work for, just remember that its a small industry and many will remember you for what you did and did not do.
Happy Flying!
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Volunteering is different to working for free god how hard is this as i said before people are tripping over each other to work for free and believe that this will somehow make them invaluable to some half arsed company that wont pay.
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Volunteering is different to working for free
Working for free for a profit based company that pays other employees, or formerly paid other employees until you showed up and undercut them is scabbery of the highest order.
Dunno if this translates to aviation but that was the unwritten / MEAA rule in the entertainment industry, which (as with aviation) frequently got broken by short sighted, self serving desperadoes who did other people out of paid work.
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I think aviation is a bit like any other industry where there is competition for the relatively few vacancies available. Many employers expect (or at least want) the new employee to have some experience before hiring them. How does a newbie get that experience?
If you were an employer, would you hire the pilot with no experience (just a bare licence) or the one with 500 hours?
A friend of mine worked as a "volunteer" to get experience in a non-aviation job for 6 months (Mon-Fri 9 to 5) to get a $45k a year job. He effectively 'spent' $22k on 'training' to get the required experience. I had the same opportunity but did not want to work for free. He gained the experience required and is now employed and I didn't get the experience and I did not get a job there. Good luck to him.
I'm not advocating working for free but I just wonder how someone who has just gained their CPL, can get the required experience that is needed for a paying job, without resorting to 'buying' time, either by volunteering or paying for a cadetship.
I understand that cadets fill vacancies by effectively paying their own wages while they are training. Once they complete their training, they will be replaced by new cadets paying for their jobs; and so on and so on. Effectively, those positions will always be filled by people who are willing to pay for their own employment (there goes the T+Cs enjoyed by pilots up until now). So what is left for everyone else?
Whether it is in aviation or other industries, it seems as though the employer can sit back and choose someone who is so willing to work, that they will volunteer to get the required experience.
When I go out and start door-knocking with a bare CPL, I expect that it is going to be pretty tough. I can't afford to work for free, so how does one get the experience without under-cutting the other door-knockers?
If I have to buy the experience by hiring a plane and flying joy flights or whatever, I still pay. If I volunteer, I still pay (exchange my time instead of money). So what is the answer? How do I get the experience without volunteering (I still have a way to go yet before getting my CPL so I'm not about to go out destroying eveyone else's T+Cs; I just want to devote my time and resources in the right directions, thanks)?
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Cn
If you were an employer, would you hire the pilot with no experience (just a bare licence) or the one with 500 hours?
A friend of mine worked as a "volunteer" to get experience in a non-aviation job for 6 months (Mon-Fri 9 to 5) to get a $45k a year job. He effectively 'spent' $22k on 'training' to get the required experience. I had the same opportunity but did not want to work for free. He gained the experience required and is now employed and I didn't get the experience and I did not get a job there. Good luck to him.
I'm not advocating working for free but I just wonder how someone who has just gained their CPL, can get the required experience that is needed for a paying job, without resorting to 'buying' time, either by volunteering or paying for a cadetship.
I understand that cadets fill vacancies by effectively paying their own wages while they are training. Once they complete their training, they will be replaced by new cadets paying for their jobs; and so on and so on. Effectively, those positions will always be filled by people who are willing to pay for their own employment (there goes the T+Cs enjoyed by pilots up until now). So what is left for everyone else?
Whether it is in aviation or other industries, it seems as though the employer can sit back and choose someone who is so willing to work, that they will volunteer to get the required experience.
When I go out and start door-knocking with a bare CPL, I expect that it is going to be pretty tough. I can't afford to work for free, so how does one get the experience without under-cutting the other door-knockers?
If I have to buy the experience by hiring a plane and flying joy flights or whatever, I still pay. If I volunteer, I still pay (exchange my time instead of money). So what is the answer? How do I get the experience without volunteering (I still have a way to go yet before getting my CPL so I'm not about to go out destroying eveyone else's T+Cs; I just want to devote my time and resources in the right directions, thanks)?
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Cn