Airline Pilot to part time FI

[RoyBoy20]

Hello all

Im an FO currently flying out of London full time, with ample amount of time to do something on the side. I've always wanted to instruct and thought now would be the right time for me.

Would I be able to take an FI courses part time whilst flying full time with approx 11-14 days off per month? Also would it be even possible to find a part ime FI job which would be flexible around my roster?

Thanks in advance.

Kind Regards,
Roy

[mad_jock]

The getting the course done will be the biggest ball ache. But..... the schools are gagging for money just now so you may be able to find someone that will do it for you. Its not so much the flying which is the pain its the ground school.

Next issue is your airline. The instruction hous even if unpaid are counted towards your FTL limits both the 900 and also the 28 day. You need to have a chat with your CP but you might have a nice suprise on that front, quite alot of CP's are quite pro GA instructing and will make it work as long as you don't take the piss and screw the company up. ie you are already on 85 hours rolling 28 days and you do 6 hours and it means you are no use to man nor beast for the 3 standbys on days 26,27 and 28.

Now getting work I don't know round London Area but up north a part time Airline instructor on the books is used as a marketing feature. The punters love the idea they are being taught by a heavy tin driver, even though a fresh out the tin airline pilot will be just as crap at teaching the basics as any one else until they get thier feet. So I think if you get the right school you should have no problems even if they don't have anything really going. The students will want you so you will get enough to keep you going at a comfy rate. ie couple of lessons every day you go in. Lots of time for briefs etc. If you get a school that wants you to do 5 hours plus avoid it, its bloody hard work and you won't do the job properly and more importantly YOU won't enjoy it.

Have fun you will be suprised how much you will learn about flying

[mykul10]

That can be done. I have PM'd you.

[james1013]

Note from struggling FI.
I'm in a position where my main job is as a PPL FI, the instructing market is so dire at present that I get a handful of hours each week. I'm minute building not hour building, it's pathetic, I'm on the brink of having to totally abandon aviation, there just isn't enough opportunity.

Retired and present pilots who fancy a nice little side line in my opinion aren't welcome. Yes I know the World isn't fair but come on chap spare a thought for the bottom of the food chain and just stick to your 1 job (or if retired buy some golf clubs or do the garden).

[Duchess_Driver]

Part time FI course with your flexible rostering is possible, and possible in the London area. www.egld.com/tpc

As MJ says - you'd need to speak with your primary employer as some aren't keen.

As for employment afterwards...who knows. Right place, right time... etc

[hawker750]

I think James has hit the nail on the head. Why do airline employees always want to get into GA on a part time basis? Because the pay is no good but it is fun. But as James said it is not fair. I have always employed self improvers and they need as much help as possible.

[Goprdon]

Please check email/PM.

[Wirbelsturm]

I think James has hit the nail on the head. Why do airline employees always want to get into GA on a part time basis? Because the pay is no good but it is fun. But as James said it is not fair. I have always employed self improvers and they need as much help as possible.


Note from struggling FI.
I'm in a position where my main job is as a PPL FI, the instructing market is so dire at present that I get a handful of hours each week. I'm minute building not hour building, it's pathetic, I'm on the brink of having to totally abandon aviation, there just isn't enough opportunity.

Retired and present pilots who fancy a nice little side line in my opinion aren't welcome. Yes I know the World isn't fair but come on chap spare a thought for the bottom of the food chain and just stick to your 1 job (or if retired buy some golf clubs or do the garden).


Hmmm, seems the politics of envy at play to me. Not all those who decide to broaden their knowledge are there to pull the rug out from those climbing the greasy pole.

As an example I am an Airline tin tube driver. I also used to work part time for a VIP charter helicopter company as an 'off roster/on call' assistant for the times when the 'regular' guys needed a short notice day off/emergency/ or holidays. Experience and availability made me, prior to the recession, a useful asset to have in the back pocket, so to speak. My renumeration? Not money, but the ability to keep my ATPL(H) ticking over without the wife shouting at me.

Our working relationship was extremely friendly and great fun.

So please don't castigate someone who wishes to help out now, as when the airlines start recruiting again, they are going to be the ones still flying with the fee paying students when all the hour builders have all gone.

[Black Knat]

James-has it occured to you that the part-time airline instructors you seem to dislike are your contacts to moving on in an aviation career?? It seems that some guys/girls seem to take a while to realise that it is contacts that will help get the first job as full time instructor, maybe executive jet pilot, airline pilot,etc. Having a chance to meet/have a beer etc with people who are already deeply involved in aviation is your ticket to moving on.

[LH2]

Note from struggling FI.
[....]
Retired and present pilots who fancy a nice little side line in my opinion aren't welcome.

Why not? Just because you are not good enough to do his job, and he's good enough to do his and yours? :E

I have always employed self improvers and they need as much help as possible.

That's nice, but how abut your customers? Do they not deserve the best instructors you can afford to hire?

Only recently I was speaking to someone who runs a very successful GA business--aside from their job proper, they also have a couple of little planes and do PPLs, etc., just for fun. I was commending him on the instructional quality of his pilots which is indeed very high and his reply was "well you see, they are bored ****less of flying the big planes so they love it when they get to go on the little ones". Made sense to me :ok:

PS: Nothing against low time instructors btw. One of the very best I've had was less than two months out of the course and had at the time about as many hours as me.

[DFC]

The only time that I would back people with comments like


Note from struggling FI.
[....]
Retired and present pilots who fancy a nice little side line in my opinion aren't welcome.


is if the person (regardless of background, knowledge, experience etc) intending to market themselves as an instructor was offering to undercut those already in the industry eg "willing to fly just for the fun of it".

As far as I can tell the original poster is willing to pay the costs of an FI course and will be relying on flying part-time while charging (or being paid) the usual rate. The duty time they have given to their airline is decucted from the time available to recoup their investment.

Therefore provided that they comply with the requirements of their airline which will probably require them to refrain from flying for 36 or more hours prior to and after a duty "week" it does not leave them available for as many days in the school as you might first think.

FIs who are finding it hard in these times should be glad that it is an airline pilot who is joining the business and not some used car sales person who can be there 24/7 taking every bit of business they can get their hands on.

-----------

For the original poster, I would ask if you really want to jump in at PPL level instruction or perhaps you would be more comfortable starting with multi engine and instrument rating work which would be more akin to your current experience and then later expand into the PPL training market if that is what you want. This would cost less initially and you would get a quicker return on your investment.

Following that path also stops a lot of the "Airline guy pushing in on our patch" from the PPL instructors who are indeed struggling to make a living at most places.

However, if you do want to start with PPL level training then good luck to you. You are as entitled to enter the market as anyone else and what is wrong with someone having experience? .....as long as they don't under-cut those already trying to make a living.

[james1013]

Ok perhaps my comments were a bit too provocative, I'm sorry, I woke up extra specially bitter and twisted (bad weather, no bookings, wife ran out of patience with my flying job idea, kid screaming...etc). I'll be more positive.

Black knat - regarding contact making, no it hadn't occured to me, maybe I'm at the wrong club, time to find a new job!

LH2 - is it just about being good enough? isn't it more about having the opportunity in the first instance then frequency, recency and quality ongoing training/checks - stop all that and surely any pilot would be behind the curve/not good enough, hence all the regulation.

Royboy20 - ignore my bitter ramblings (i'm sure you already have) and do the FI course. Course is great fun, teaching is great fun, the challenge of knocking a pilot out of all comers is a great challenge. It's not near London but I did my FI rating with On-Track Aviation based at Wellesbourne in Warwickshire. They are quite used to doing it bit by bit to suit the customers needs. e.g. while I was there an about-to-retire training captain was renewing his 30 year out of date FI rating and he came down from Scotland a few days at a time. EGBW is a nice little GA airfield, no commercial traffic, and loads of open airspace on the door step, which all makes for effective use of engine run time for each trip.

There, I feel better now. :)

[IL VATE]

I agree 200% with James1013's first answer!!!
But the correct answer to the original 3D are all yes!!!
If you do it, wellcome in to the family and thank you from all of us.

[Capt Pit Bull]

I'm at least with DFC.

I remember when I was an AFI, earning a tiny hourly rate, and someone turned up and offered to instruct for nothing. The guy wasn't an airline pilot, but was in a well paid profession. Needless to say I was not gruntled.

I'm also pretty much with James original position. Yes, accepted, there are contacts to be made etc. But even if someone comes in and is paid the same rate as the incumbent this is still not a situation any other industry would accept unless there was (a) enough work (and money) to maintain the longer serving employee in full time / full pay or (b) they had already expressed a desire to go part time.

e.g If my boss called me in and said 'hi pb, meet bloggs from AirXYZ who is going to be working part time on your projects... oh, btw, we are changing your contract to part time and cutting your pay in half' my response would be 'see you in court' for constructive dismissal.

This thread shows why Pilots as a group get shafted by the industry. Too many people only think about what's best for them, as individuals, in the short term. In some flying clubs, owners play fast and lose with their obligations under employment law and sadly they usually get away with it.

(none of which means the OP shouldn't qualify an an FI and instruct, but I think it behoves more senior pilots within the industry to exercise sensitivity when dealing with club type situations.)

pb

[Wirbelsturm]

Capt Pit Bull,

To use you analogy then we should never pick up friends and family from the airport as we are doing the poor, hard working taxi drivers out of a job as well.

Working ad-hoc for a local flying club can hardly be seen as an attack on the full time Flying Instructors position. As long as the position is approached with common sense and sensitivity as to the concerns of the full time employees and an acceptance that the part time role is one of support it shouldn't be a problem. I made it clear to the company I worked for that I would only offer 'cover' when one of the full time pilots required it.

Certainly, as an airline pilot, I could not be relied upon to be able to step in short notice at any time during the month thus my role was seen more as 'if and when available'. As long as an accomodation is reached as to the specific role of part time instructors and their position within the heirarchy of the club then I don't see why it has to be such an onerous thing.

[james1013]

Where's Harry Hill when you need him?

"I like Hour building FIs and Airline pilot/part-time FIs, but which one's better? there's only one way to find out.....

[Coffin Corner]

How on earth can anyone get shafted if an airline pilot decides he/she wants to instruct?
Surely, if they do the rating, then obtain a part time job then they have only obtained that job because a position has come "available", meaning extra work for all. It'll be a different story if someone applied for a job, and was given ½ of someone else's full time job thus making 2 part time instructors. Can you see this happening? Get real people.

[DFC]

I have an important question for james1013.

Are you an employee (employed by the school) or are you self employed?

If you are employed then your employer decides who to hire and when to hire them. You can discuss the level of work available with your employer but I don't think that many employers are going to satart employing people and paying the employer's part of national insurance etc etc unless there is suficient work.

If you are self employed then welcome to the open market. You need to market yourself, improve the product(s) you offer and basically get out there and find the work because of you don't then the competition will.

That is the whole idea of being self employed!!!

Not related to your position because I don't know what it is but I do find that both instructors and clubs are very happy to operate "self employed" while it is saving them tax and/oir national insurance contributions. However, as soon as market reality appears then they (both sides) want to be regarded as emplyer and employee as appropriate. :rolleyes:

[sherig]

The reality is that a wide range of people want to instruct... It doesn't matter whether they are an airline pilot, ex military, a self improver looking for hours or just someone looking for a new hobby. No one background is better than the other.

The important thing is the individual... If you work hard at it then it's fairly likely you'll be good at it and you'll train good pilots.

And... To repeat another poster's post... It is an open market... More competition can only increase the quality of the instruction given. None of us have the right to moan about others wanting to get into instructing.

Just my 2 bobs worth - (self improving instructor whose just happy to be out of my old IT job!)

[LH2]

I remember when I was an AFI, earning a tiny hourly rate, and someone turned up and offered to instruct for nothing. The guy wasn't an airline pilot, but was in a well paid profession.

Well, that's pretty much how it works in France, where the vast majority of instructors are unpaid volunteers, and they are respected precisely because of that.

[Dan Winterland]

Roy Boy.

Check with your employer first. My two employers while I was living in the UK both needed to know what hours I was doing out of work. The first (a UK LH airline) counted all hours done towards your limits. Even to the extent that one of my colleagues who used to fly to work in his own GA aircraft was stopped from doing so and made to drive instead - which he found far more tiring! The second worked on a non UK AOC where the FTLs made all flying accountable.

As to which type of instructor is better, the airline pilot or hours builder? Big debate - but one club I instructed at preferred the airline pilot. It held the view that the hours builder was less motivated to instruction gave the students poorer value.

[S-Works]

I'm minute building not hour building, it's pathetic, I'm on the brink of having to totally abandon aviation, there just isn't enough opportunity.

Teaching is about the student, not the minutes you get in your logbook. So what if you are not getting much time in the air, that still gives time for ground school and proper briefings.

Are are you telling me that you are only interested in teaching for what YOU get out of it? If that is the case then perhaps you should abandon aviation and leave it to those who consider the education of the student above their own needs?

The second worked on a non UK AOC where the FTLs made all flying accountable.

I work for a non UK AOC Operator and all our flying is counted for on FTL's however they are really flexible and let me teach outside of work, especially in the winter when we are quiet.

[VFE]

Nobody is saying we should instruct for our own needs entirely but there is a balance to be struck between delivering the student quality instruction and gaining something yourself. That is how the world works and I very much doubt that Bose-X instructs purely for the student's benefit either. Even if it's just the pleasure derived from teaching, you are still getting something from the deal. Or are we to believe that there's only Bose-X, Jesus and Mahatma Gandhi left?

VFE.

[flapsin]

I believe Jesus passed on in AD 0 and Ghandi in the 20th century, so I guess it's just Bose-X left!

[VFE]

Oh you spoilt the fun 'flapsin'! I was waiting for him to type that! LOL

VFE.

[james1013]

bose-x, yes I am only interested in what's in it for me, doesn't that make me perfect for aviation? and in order to take something out of FI-ing it starts with a satisfied customer, without that I can't achieve my evil plan to earn a living and move on in the world. And anyway I've already said sorry for my original post being a bit over the top and have stood corrected on a few points as to why it's a good idea to have real pilots in the club house, I'm afraid you arrived a little too late for any real sport based on my b*llsh*t. your turn.

[S-Works]

I could still smell blood...... :p:p

[b2d]

I couldnt help but notice that FI's was viewed by most Instructos as a time building job to move on. Do you tell that to your students? If you do I wonder why you arnt flying much...

Why dont you take a minute and view it from the students prespective.
Wanting the best man or women for the job, the most experince, to bring to a learnng enviroment.

Look the fact is most Flight Instructors are struggling, but it doesnt make it right to say that you arent welcome becuse there isnt hours to go around for everyone, you should embrace the idea, and the potential for a different learning prespective.

Stay strong, and dont let the down cycle of the industry get the best of you.

I myself have instructed for over 8 years, from Flying clubs, to colloges, I recall my first 2 years instructing I flew 300 hours.
Then a little more time came after few years, then moved on to being the Chief for another 3 years. Belive me I thought I was stuck and was never going to move on. after 8 years in trainng I got out doing some operational flying on moslty light twins. That lasted for few years after that. Now I am unemployed with 3000 hours and 1000 hours multi, and 12 years in the industry. I manage to not let myself fall for the depression trap and belive me its hard.

As for the Airline dude that wants to instruct part time, I say do it, Flight trainig now a days could use industry experince on the top level to change the trend a little.
Maybe inspire the guys that are working with you and help them even if its just by motivation.

I think it could be a good thing, for everyone, co-workers, students and Schools. I am sure he isnt going to take flying hours away from the guys that are scraping by to pay rent.

Stay strong, Fly safe, and remember nothing ever stays the same. Tough times cant last forever, and good times always go un-noticed or too fast.

Find the balance in life. Start by looking in your back yard

[Capt Pit Bull]

Capt Pit Bull,

To use you analogy then we should never pick up friends and family from the airport as we are doing the poor, hard working taxi drivers out of a job as well.


Well, at the risk of stretching an already over stretched analogy; if you dropped Auntie Doris off at terminal 5 and then drove down to the taxi rank and yelled out "if anyone needs a lift into town I'll take you for a fiver" then you'd be out of order.


Working ad-hoc for a local flying club can hardly be seen as an attack on the full time Flying Instructors position.

You need to broaden your experience. Or open your eyes. There are plenty of unscrupulous folks in GA who will happily use 'divide and conquer' when there are extra hands about.


As long as the position is approached with common sense and sensitivity as to the concerns of the full time employees and an acceptance that the part time role is one of support it shouldn't be a problem.

Thats exactly what I said....

I made it clear to the company I worked for that I would only offer 'cover' when one of the full time pilots required it.

Certainly, as an airline pilot, I could not be relied upon to be able to step in short notice at any time during the month thus my role was seen more as 'if and when available'. As long as an accomodation is reached as to the specific role of part time instructors and their position within the heirarchy of the club then I don't see why it has to be such an onerous thing.

...and what I would expect.


I remember when I was an AFI, earning a tiny hourly rate, and someone turned up and offered to instruct for nothing. The guy wasn't an airline pilot, but was in a well paid profession.
Well, that's pretty much how it works in France, where the vast majority of instructors are unpaid volunteers, and they are respected precisely because of that.

Well, maybe I'm too materialistic, but nothing says 'respect' like a living wage. And nothing says 'sucker' like providing professional services for free.

It'll be a different story if someone applied for a job, and was given ½ of someone else's full time job thus making 2 part time instructors. Can you see this happening?

Yes, seen it happen, in various forms.

I couldnt help but notice that FI's was viewed by most Instructos as a time building job to move on.

Well of course it is; that's because at most places the T&Cs suck! I enjoyed my time instructing and at the time tried to make a career of it, but the pay was so awful I used to have to kip in a sleeping bag on the office floor. The only way I survived that period was by jacking in flying and working as a professional groundschool instructor for a few years until the next airline recruiting phase.

Its really simple, the problem with this industry is that a significant number of pilots simply can not focus on whether they are enthusiastic amateurs or serious professionals. Accordingly they are very vulnerable to unscrupulous employers.

And... To repeat another poster's post... It is an open market... More competition can only increase the quality of the instruction given. None of us have the right to moan about others wanting to get into instructing.

That doesn't follow. More competition tends to drive down prices and reduce quality of service. You end up with plenty of choice, but no quality. This applies in all markets.

In aviation, an influx of inexperienced instructors drives down pay and conditions then experienced professional instructors may move on.

pb

[Wirbelsturm]

You need to broaden your experience. Or open your eyes. There are plenty of unscrupulous folks in GA who will happily use 'divide and conquer' when there are extra hands about.


Oh, I think my experience base is broad enough and my eyes have been wide open for the past 26 years in the business ;). I have been an instructor on both fixed wing and rotary in the past and have worked in many varied aspects of aviation before choosing the airlines as my 'retirement' option.

The unscrupulous element in this equation, as you put it, would be the employers who utilise the experience of part time instructors to the detriment of the full time employees. Whilst not too prevelant within the GA environment the current legislative pressures don't help the employer either.

There seems to be broadly two 'camps' within the instructor community, those who wish to use instruction as a route into flying 'heavys' and those who have flown 'heavys' or commercial and want a rest/change. Granted there are also many who do GA instruction full time as they enjoy the challenge and don't want to fly the boring ATPL flights.

The simple answer is that utilising part time instructors can be of great advantage to any club. They bring different views on aviation from the professionals point of view to the enthusiasts point of view and all aspects between. The difficulty lies with the employer in how the integrate/utilise such opportunities without denigrating the responsibilities of the full time employees.

A fine line to tread and one that can be too time consuming and difficult for many small business employers.