Final F-111 dump & burn over Brisbane 0900z 100904

[SteveJWR]

With the final 'dump and burn' as a part of Brisbane's Riverfire by the now defunct Amberly AFB [YAMB] F-111's tomorrow night, I would like to know if I should tune to BN Radar 125.7 or BN Approach 125.6 to listen in to their requests for clearance to execute the Dump and Burn?

[Air Tourer]

I'll be glad when it's over. Madness to fly low level over the city, and silly to waste all that fuel just to entertain the masses. A few more fireworks would do them. How safe is it? A few F-111's have crashed, one on the edge of a small town (Tenterfield) came within about 2 km of wiping the place out. :=

[PyroTek]

Is this the "Final Final" dump and burn? or just another "Final" dump and burn like the previous two years? :E

[Taildragger67]

Air Tourer,

You raise two main points, one about the cost of the flight in terms of simple entertainment, the other, safety:

I'd suggest that the masses don't generally have a problem with expenditure of a reasonable amount of public funds, on public entertainment from time to time. This is clearly a one-off, the celebration of 37 years' faithful service by a major defence asset which has become a common sight over parts of SEQ. Maybe it's the RAAF's way of telling us all that they're still on watch.

It's also the RAAF's tribute to those who maintained and operated them (and some who sadly died); the public's tribute will be in the applause and cheers which will doubtless be heard as the F111 goes overhead. I'd suggest that if numbers at the next similar event are smaller than this year's, the lack of the F111 will be a factor.

It could be argued that any public celebration / entertainment 'wastes' something, be it fuel, money, or some other resource. Indeed there are some which arguably waste at least as much - motor racing comes to mind, for example. Society may well one day choose to cap these 'wastes' by banning them. In any case, I'm sure we could all contribute by leaving the car at home now & then.

On the safety / crash point, these are military aircraft which I think we'd agree are sometimes pushed harder than civilian aircraft; that is, they often engage in activities which are inherently riskier, and that is where most incidents occur.

However, a straight-and-level, 1g overflight would, I'd suggest, generate limited risk for a properly maintained and operated aircraft. That is, a sortie such as this should present no greater risk to a built-up area under the flightpath, than a RPT aircraft approach over a built-up area. I'd suggest most airports serving major centres around the world, these days, are subject to pressures from the surrounding population such that it would be difficult to think of many which are competely free from built-up areas under one of their approaches; hence this is a risk which is difficult to eliminate.

Personally, I'm in favour of the upcoming show and I'm disappointed I won't be able to be there. I hope it's a lovely clear dark night and the flame coming out of that F111 lights up Brisbane.

[VH-XXX]

They don't burn normal usable fuel, it's "b" grade slops so not really a waste as far as what is being dumped although the primary fuel is a waste. Military are of course exempt from civil rules so height and proximity to built up areas / innocent civillians are not of concern to them. After all they just eject if things go wrong don't they???...... I've been harping on about this for years, particularly how even the Roulettes can exit a loop towards he crowd at airshows in full close proximity formation... It's only a matter of time.


Maybe "the masses" realise that properly maintained aircraft, with properly trained and experienced crews

Nobody is perfect and nobody is exempt from crashing.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Air Tourer...maybe you could care to explain the danger involved in an F111 flying low over a built up area?

[Air Tourer]

VH-xxx. I'm sure your right, but just for my edification, where can you buy "slop" fuel. Even the heater oil I buy is the price of unleaded petrol.

To the busdriver, you have me speachless mate. I'm sure I couldn't tell you anything.

That other joker? well I don't fly over populated areas for the fun of it and having flown in a few air shows, the first rule was, "Don't point it at the public". The rest of your post is just crap, and no I don't go to motor races, drive on toures or to shows or have any fun at all. :=

[1a sound asleep]

I worked out the cost of the fuel and its 7 cents :{per person watching.

As for the safety, it's the air force, they can do whatever they want so it seems. Imagine a civil operator getting CASA approval for this:ugh:

[Arnold E]

Wish I had the final dump and burn in my log book. ( mind you, wish it never happened )

[gobbledock]

As for the safety, it's the air force, they can do whatever they want so it seems. Imagine a civil operator getting CASA approval for this:ugh:
Hell of a lot safer having the Air Force oversight the flyover rather than having Fort Fumble organise it. Most of The RAAF pilots could fly the pig between two hay bales, CASA wouldnt be able to fly the pig safely between two continents.....
Whether you like the planes or not, they have become part of the Aussie culture and will be surely missed. As for the lads flying them on saturday night - Give it heaps !!

P.S I hear the STIG may be flying one....

[havick]

VH-XXX how about we just wrap ourselves up in cotton wool entirely, and never go outside.. I mean come on, really? Are you really that concerned about a 111, or a PC9 for that matter spearing into the general public?

[nitpicker330]

Who appointed Airtourer the "Fun Police" anyway?

The crash in Tenterfield was during a very low level TFR exercise with a pitch up roll maneuver on a very dark night. I hardly think a straight and level flypast at 500' would be a problem and for you to compare the two means you know jack about flying. So stick to your bug smasher and let the pros handle the kero burners.

[nitpicker330]

VH-XXX..... as far as I'm aware the Pig dumps it's normal fuel load into the afterburner stream which ignites. It is regular Jet A1 and not crap fuel.

[clinty83]

My personal opinion would be, if a screaming F111 was the last thing I saw coming at me just before the lights went out, AT LEAST I'D DIE HAPPY!!

Any idea on just how many pigs may possibly be seen??
I have heard rumours of more than 2??

[VH-XXX]

I saw an interview with a RAAF liaison once on TV where he stated that the fuel was not usable for flight. Happy to be told otherwise if this is not true.

[Lodown]

I'm starting a petition to ban all low level, wasteful "publicity stunts" by the RAAF, to include fuel dump and burns and aerobatics. After that, then I'm gunning for public parks, highway rest areas, GA aerodromes, television stations, voting, lifesaver beach carnivals, church picnics (people can get food poisoning) and politicians. They all seem like a waste to me. Then I'm going to find a cave and live out the rest of my days in isolation. So there!

[max AB]

The fuel the Pig dumps is from its usable fuel load, that is the whole point of a jettison system, to reduce weight. Do you really think the GD designers thought, "hey lets put a slop fuel dump system on the 111 so it can look cool at air shows..." As for the safety concerns raised by Airtourer, yes there is a risk when an aircraft flys over a city, or flys at all for that matter and yes F111s have crashed. But so have 320's 74's 73's 340's etc and even airtourers, but most of those fly over the city every day. Can I suggest Airtourer. for your own safety, you stay indoors and wear a tin hat.

[Victor India]

VH-XXX,

It has already been said and I almost thought "ah - let it go" - but:

Military are of course exempt from civil rules so height and proximity to built up areas / innocent civillians are not of concern to them.

You have proven yourself to be ill informed.

The rules which ADF aircraft follow are derived from a multitude of publications, which (where applicable) embrace (or even copy verbatim) the rules contained in AIP. Of course, the AIP would only cover a tiny fraction of the overall operational profile of many military types (particularly a strike aircraft like an F-111), therefore if we were to ask the F-111 (or similar) to conform to the AIP (and other civil regs) we'd be chopping off its nuts.

Risk management is performed at every level of flying safety management in the ADF, right down to the individual flight. No - it isn't always done perfectly - but as others have stated, we're talking about an essentially straight and level pass dumping a small amount of fuel. Without doubt only a fraction of the risk of your average first solo at Archerfield or similar...

I think you'd find that "height and proximity to built up areas/innocent civilians" is one of the frequently addressed issues in a military flight authorisation brief, and of great concern to ADF airworthiness authorities at all levels.

Is this sounding like cantonese to you? I suspect so...

VI

[VH-XXX]

You have proven yourself to be ill informed.

Not so VI, all you have done is proven that they are in fact not following civil guidelines but rather a derivitave thereof.

Next time you are at an airshow and the Roulettes exit their loop towards the crowd of 50,000 people like at Avalon at around 500 ft over your naive little heads, rest assured that the RAAF have followed their extensive risk management processes that you speak of and that the 25 year old pilot with 500 hours in his log book who is lucky to clock 100 hours a year had plenty of sleep the night before and that the apprentice RAAF engineer that signed off on the aircraft after a big night on the turps did his job properly.

Nobody is perfect, accidents do happen and the roulettes / pc9's / military are not exempt as hey have proven before on multiple occasions during practice. If you'd ever woken up to a smashed PC9 with associated fatality in your back paddock like I have, you would understand... (granted that this aircraft was not flying as part of the roulettes but goes to show the level of risk management as the weather was atrocious)

[VH-XXX]

For the record I will be there at the River Fire tonight complete with camera and my Tin Hat !

[peuce]

VH-XXX,

In one way you are correct ... there is definitely a chance that a nasty even might happen during an F-111 exhibition.

However, and it's a big however .... we, the public have accepted that risk, knowing that it's quite small and that the most probable outcome ... a spectacular sight ... is worth taking that risk.

We take these risks every day, walking out the door. There's a possibility that I might get hit by a truck as I try and cross this busy road. But, I'll accept that small risk, if it means I'll most probably get to the bus stop and get to work.

It's called life.

[SteveJWR]

geez ... all i wanted was 125.7 or 125.6 :-|

btw i thought i overheard a member of the flying ADF saying kero in the center tanks was used for the D&B's for greater effect ...

[Trojan1981]

25 year old pilot with 500 hours in his log book who is lucky to clock 100 hours a year had plenty of sleep the night before and that the apprentice RAAF engineer that signed off on the aircraft after a big night on the turps did his job properly.


VH-XXX

VIs post is accurate, if a little arrogant in that last line. Risk management is conducted broardly throughout the organisation and specifically for each sortie. Every person and every machine can stuff up as you have stated, the RAAF is not immune. I must say the RAAF is much better at this sort of thing than the air arms of the other two services.

The Roulettes are picked from the CFS and average 4000 hours (a lot for an RAAF Pilot). Maintenence of RAAF aircraft is conducted by both civil and RAAF personel and is very thorough, although RAAF aircraft rarely meet civil airworthyness standards.
For riverfire they would have developed a standard set of "actions on" SOPs for various possible emergencies and practiced them ad nauseum both in the sim and in the air (probably hundreds of hours). They do this so that if there is a terminal emergency of some kind they can take such action so as to ensure nil/min loss of life or damage to property. Tey also adjust the flight profile to ensure that such options will exist. Natrually there are not many options when operating 200AGL, supersonic on TFR at night, hence the high loss rate.

So yes, it is still a risk, but in my opinion it is a well managed one. Personally I am glad they can still do this sort of thing. I wish I could be there:ok:

[das Uber Soldat]

This thread is depressing.

Go live in a cave or something, I find it entirely unbelievable that people would genuinely argue against the incredible peril presented by a 1 g s&l flight manoeuvre. Airshow aerobatics pointed at the crowd, sure, I see the point, but a dump and burn?

[fencehopper]

Always seems to be one wooze who complains. Paranoid about a dump and burn!? Glad you weren't in Sydney the other week when the Blackhawks with their new pilots where barrelling up and down Elizabeth St at lunch time. You would have been running for the shelters.
Better our taxes being spent on this than piss ups for the fat pollies.

[Cactusjack]

Fencehopper, Go you good thing !
VH XXX obviously doesn't live in Townsville, if he/she did then he/she would run screaming for the fallout shelters every time the Blackhawks barelled around the city at rooftop level. As far as I am concerned if people up north around Townsville such as The Townsville Refueller and Bob Katter aint trying to ban RAAF shennannigans then neither should anyone else.
A pig flown by a young buck above the Brisbane river is still a hell of a lot less risky than a lot of the other dodgy crap that goes on within aviation..
'Safe Pigs For All'......

[Hailstop3]

Don't forget to wrap yourself in cotton wool balls and pillows so you don't get hurt when the F111s crash.

Can't believe the thoughts here. One of the coolest shows that people get to witness, and the 2nd post is all about safety. Live a little people. I'm sure it wouldn't be done if it wasn't remotely safe. Like they said get a tin hat Airtourer.

Did the original poster get his radio freq question answered? I can't help, been overseas too long, playing with scary thunderstorms. Oops, been flying within 2 nm of them, wrap me in cotton wool and feed me to the gods for I have sinned yet had fun doing it...

[maverick22]

With regard to the original question, with RWY 01 in use at YBBN I would suspect BN APP 124.7. If you have a scanner just listen out on approach and radar

[peuce]

geez ... all i wanted was 125.7 or 125.6 :-|

Welcome to PPRUNE.
The only place where we can turn a simple question into a 2 page vitriolic debate about the meaning of life.:ok:
And geez ... we're good at it :D

Now ... does the sun rise in the east or the west?

[VH-XXX]

Now ... does the sun rise in the east or the west?

Depends if you're in the northern or southern hemisphere :rolleyes:

[Fliegenmong]

This may help SteveJWR....:ok:

Airport Detail: YBBN | LiveATC.net (http://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=YBBN)

I've heard them......

[Fliegenmong]

Nice one Cnl 9 15 secs of a General Dynamics legend......1.5 mins of a coon dressed in animal pelts!!!....Thanks a lot

[Fliegenmong]

Wonder why I hate Chnl 9?????:yuk::yuk::mad::ugh::hmm:

[megle2]

xxx Where were you, I couldn't spot you tonight?

3 dump and burns, great show especially number 2.

[Cactusjack]

And what a relief for VH XXX, no crash and the night remained safe !!
Ye of little faith........

[F111]

Yep 3 burns and the 9 coverage missed the first and only showed bits of the second and last one.

[Jabawocky]

Was a good show......mind you they could have sent out half a dozen of them and played all night! :ok:

[VH-XXX]

Was there megle but with my tin hat and sunglasses I was hard to spot.

Anything to get out of Victorias weather at the moment!

PS All, I was whinging about the Roulettes from the start, not the 111's if you read back!

[Jack Ranga]

When I was there in the 80's it was all broadcast through the FM station, most took their tranni's and listened, don't they do that anymore?

[601]

Imagine a civil operator getting CASA approval for this

Well I did. Must admit that I did not do a dump and burn. Just two passes below the city skyline.

[maverick22]

Why is it that an F111 can actually do a dump and burn? Obviously it is for dumping fuel, but why burn it? Was it designed to do this, or is it more a case of it just so happens that whilst dumping fuel with reheat on you get the dump and burn effect? Do other military jets do this? Pardon my ignorance but never really thought about it till this thread popped up.:8

[Steve888]

It's because of the position of the fuel dump valve between the exhausts of the engines at the back of the aircraft.

Apparently someone with massive cohones decided to try dumping fuel while using afterburner to ignite it, generating the large flame.

http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/AWA1/201-300/walk217_F-111/images_Everett_McEwan/F-111_tail.JPG

[Falling Leaf]

Apparently someone with massive cohones decided to try dumping fuel while using afterburner to ignite it, generating the large flame.

I believe it was a heavy USAF F-111 that had an engine failure shortly after take-off, and needed afterburner in the good engine to maintain airspeed during the recovery.

While dumping fuel to reduce weight for landing, the crew got a nasty fright when the Tower informed them they were on fire - and so the dump and burn capability of the F-111 was accidentally discovered.

Incidentally, it has only been the RAAF that has used the dump and burn for displays, the USAF considered the practice to be too hazardous.;)

[SgtBundy]

Incidentally, it has only been the RAAF that has used the dump and burn for displays, the USAF considered the practice to be too hazardous

Such a pity they are going, seeing as only the RAAF flew them right :)

[RenegadeMan]

I've read every comment on here. The for and against. All I can say is that none of it matters that much now. The F111s have been doing their dump and burns for many years and given us all the thrill of thrills! Saturday night was no different. I was there and have recorded my excitement at the experience on video to remind me of the sheer exhilaration of this spectacle that we'll not see again.

Thank you F111 crews and RAAF for these unforgettable sights. I for one feel like I've been witness to something very special.

gF5CMjVeTUI

[Trojan1981]

Beautiful to watch! Such a shame it's nearly gone :(

[notmyC150v2]

It was a great night and I strongly support Jabba's call on other threads to keep a couple of 111's for public displays like this one. The goodwill produced towards the Airforce as well as the recruitment possibilities are endless.

My boys loved it, especially the rumble in their chests as it flew overhead.

BUT

most took their tranni's and listened, don't they do that anymore?

Well that was before the Fitzgeral Inquiry cleared all of those shenanigens up... :}:} We don't have trannis in Queensland anymore.:E