Blair "Almost" Ordered RAF to Shoot Down a Civilian Airliner

[Warmtoast]

According to comments in today's press about Blair's memoirs he almost had a civilian passenger plane shot down post 9/11.


A passenger plane flying over London was almost shot down in the panic after the 9/11 attacks.
RAF fighters were in the air ready to destroy the airliner which had failed to respond to radio messages. "I had the senior RAF commander authorised to get my decision," Blair wrote. "The fighter jet was airborne. For several anxious minutes we talked, trying to desperately to get an instinct as to whether this was a threat or mishap.
"The deadline came. I decided we should hold back. Moments later the plane regained contact. It had been a technical error. I needed to sit down and thank God after that one."


Anyone know anymore about this incident, which would I expect have been the major topic in crew-room conversations for some time afterwards?

[BEagle]

Surely even the oleaginous Trust-me-Tone had been briefed about standard intercept procedures.

Presumably he had to wait for Dubya to tell him what to do.....

What a shower of ****e nuLabor truly were......:(

[Dengue_Dude]

Oh no . . . It can't be true . . . I have to agree with HIM again.

Evenin' gov

DD

ps. Great word - spot on.

[teeteringhead]

Smells of political "Waltism"...

..... isn't tis the man who cliamed to have run a way from school to watch a footie match which occurred efore he was born or something equally obviously false.

Don't trust anything the man says.

[NutLoose]

Shame the fighter never got a "Lock On Tone", then took the "Tone" out..

The bloke lives in a dream world........ watching him tonight how he and Labour, brought the welfare state and the country into the 21st century (missing out the "we have financially crippled the country in doing so, for years to come") amazed me, he actually believes the sh*t he is shovelling.....

[soddim]

After the next round of defence cuts it might be difficult to find a fighter pilot who would shoot down a civilian aircraft that looked intent on attacking Whitehall.

[Legalapproach]

It was the 18.30 Edinburgh - Heathrow shuttle. Passenger list read in alphabetical order:
ANDREWS, C
BROWN, G
D.......:E

[Navy_Adversary]

At the rate that 9 homes Tone is collecting real estate he will soon have more homes than the RAF have aircraft.:rolleyes:

[Two's in]

Some better headlines that suggest the fearless nature of the man:

Blair "almost" ran the country for 10 years
Blair "almost" commanded the respect of the Armed Forces
Blair "almost" had the balls to say no to invading Iraq
Balir "almost" told the truth to the Chilcott Inquiry
Blair "almost" kept his word to Gordon Brown
Balir "almost" stopped acting like a poodle

You get the idea I'm sure...

[A and C]

Getting back to the thread I would think that all the leaders of democratic western states found themselfs in the "almost" position because the situation was so unclear.

Unfortunatly the only peope who grasped with both situation with both hands was the "security" industry, they saw the chance to charge big money for putting lots of low paid numptys at airport security gates!

What we need now is for someone in government to turn on these people who ramp up the paranoia for personal proffit and get airport security back to a resonable level.

[oldbaldeagle]

Soddim said

"After the next round of defence cuts it might be difficult to find a fighter pilot who would shoot down a civilian aircraft that looked intent on attacking Whitehall."

Frankly, I fear it might be hard to find a fighter pilot - fullstop.

[rogerk]

Never mind finding a Fighter Pilot, anyone know where you can borrow a B52 ??
I'm not busy next week so would be happy to help load and crew !!
:D:D

[forget]

A passenger plane flying over London was almost shot down in the panic after the 9/11 attacks. "The deadline came. I decided we should hold back. Moments later the plane regained contact. It had been a technical error. I needed to sit down and thank God after that one."

Dear oh dear. Does he really expect anyone to believe him? The man's deranged - but very very rich.

[Double Zero]

In a hopefully more staid discussion, I wouldn't be surprised if this happens more often than let on.

I was at a firm with aircraft flying around Windsor when 9/11 happened, and naturally ATC were a bit nervous... at one stage, just after we were allowed to fly again, a 'rogue' non-squawking target was spotted heading into Windsor airspace, obviously a big no-no .

One of our aircraft was vectored to identify it, so much for F-3's - it had to be our worst, heaviest most clapped out C 172 whose only weapon was a 400mm lens !

It proved to be an innocent berk in a PA28, whose transponder was probably the same make we used, often got calls from ATC about it.

Remember that in the early days of the Falklands a civilian Boieng 707 was very nearly taken out by Sea Dart, and there are quite a few passengers of a Korean 747 ( which may or may not have been up to something ) who would like their fare and their lives back...

[forget]

In a hopefully more staid discussion, I wouldn't be surprised if this happens more often than let on.

Interceptions of course; but mulling over whether or not to shoot down a probably innocent airliner from over-head London? Think about it.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I was still working at the time, although maybe not at the exact time, and I recall nothing about this "incident". I know my aged brain is knackered but I can't help thinking that West Drayton, which was infested with civil and military ATC types, would have been humming like mad if such a thing had occurred. If an aircraft radio-failed in the approach sector it would not be wholly unknown and I don't think ATC would have pushed red buttons. And just how quickly could a fighter get to the scene?

Maybe there is someone out there who was on watch at the time and can answer one way or another.......?

[Double Zero]

'Mulling over to shoot down a probably innocent airliner over London' -

This must be the toughest one ever, but to be brutally frank if it looks like being steered at a target - and one has the means to shoot it down - a lot of fluttering pieces will of course be horrendous, but not as much of an impact, physical or tactical, as a high velocity airliner ?

[melmothtw]

With regards the "civilian 707" that Double Zero refers to nearly being shot down during the Falklands, was this actually the case?

I could be wrong but I seem to remember something about it being an Argentine Air Force 707 that was shadowing the Task Force and that the UK warned Argentina that if it didn't back off it would be shot down.

Does anyone know what the story was here?

[forget]

Argentinian 707s. There were several Harrier intercepts of 707s shadowing the fleet, and opportunities to shoot - 'but the option of firing on a 707 over international waters was unacceptable to the British Government'. (Falklands. The Air War.)

On the 24th April 82 Swiss diplomats advised Argentina that the next UK intercept would produce an attack; following which the 707s backed off.

[Double Zero]

The Task Force was being followed daily by an Argentinian military 707 in it's progress South, which became a little bothersome.

When they picked up the same radar signature at nearly the routine time ( first law of stress / navigation, you see what you expect to see ) - a Sea Dart missile was within moments of going, which would have been poor PR and probably a stopper on the whole escapade, but one officer had the brains to spot the course and civilian airliner timetable...

Source - " 100 Days ", by Admiral Sandy Woodward ( not a word for word quote but you get the gist, if not buy the ------ book )!

[Whippersnapper]

'Mulling over to shoot down a probably innocent airliner over London' -

This must be the toughest one ever, but to be brutally frank if it looks like being steered at a target - and one has the means to shoot it down - a lot of fluttering pieces will of course be horrendous, but not as much of an impact, physical or tactical, as a high velocity airliner ?

Shooting one down over the sea or open countryside is an option if you are pretty certain the aircraft is about to be used for a kamikaze style attack, but not over a major city - the damage and loss of life would be greater than allowing the aircraft to hit its target.

However, as said, if the aircraft only became a suspect while already over London, there is no way it could be intercepted in time. Blair always was a compulsive bull****ter and egomaniac, and this is just another example of it.

[forget]

This isn't the sort of thing that can be kept under wraps. Is there any way that accessible records can prove he's telling porkies?

PS. I don't believe this either. Constant heading, 35K feet plus. Threat = No. Yes, I know all about the Vincennes. See previous line.

When they picked up the same radar signature at nearly the routine time ( first law of stress / navigation, you see what you expect to see ) - a Sea Dart missile was within moments of going, which would have been poor PR and probably a stopper on the whole escapade, but one officer had the brains to spot the course and civilian airliner timetable...

[George Zipper]

Does anyoen remember the ridicolous spectacle of tanks surrounding the perimeter fence at Heathrow?
I'd love to ask him face to face what that parody was all about.

[Roadster280]

I do believe the Heathrow incident was a bit of dull thinking. IIRC, there was a heightened threat level in 2003 or 4, and the Met Police deployed mob-handed to LHR. They realised that they were still insufficient in number, so asked for military support, which was granted.

The Household Cavalry in Combermere Bks, Windsor were the obvious choice. HCav (being light recce) are equipped with Scimitar. That's what they deployed with. I would imagine the CO was asked for his support for the security situation at LHR, and saw no problem in taking his vehicles, which were well suited to guarding an airfield. Apparently no-one in the Police higher-ups or government had thought through that the Army were very likely to do a comprehensive job of what was asked of them. Equally, the blue-blooded CO of HCav would have no issue dismissing the rozzers' view of life.

Red faces all round on the part of the fawning civvies, AQ attack on LHR deterred, or was bollox G2 in the first place.

[Double Zero]

Whippersnapper.

Thanks for the clues to all terrorists reading !

I hope you are aware of other systems employed since then.

If an airliner is going for a prime target ( assuming both old intel' and old countermeasures ), I'm afraid Joe Public comes second, and it would probably have been called an onboard bomb; hopefully not that, just other worries now, of which I am happy to know only a smidgin...

[2Planks]

Perhaps he didn't understand the significance of the words "Exercise Exercise Exercise" or just left that out for artistic licence (and to sell more books).:E

[NutLoose]

Dread to think how much RyanAir would charge in an excess surcharge for your carry on terrorist kit, would probably put them off doing it for life..

All any self respecting terrorist needs to do is add two great red crosses to the side of his plane, after all the Geneva convention prevents aircraft carrying them being fired upon, that was why on the likes of the old JP they were repainted from red to green, so as to be seen to be playing fair in all things warlike. :p

[AR1]

Is there any way that accessible records can prove he's telling porkies?
For what its worth, I have a faint recollection of this being aired in public some time ago, but can't remember where or how - Put it this way, when I read the thread I assumed it was common knowledge.

Of course I've also been told by a fish-heads wife that the RN shot down the Air India jet - but that's rubbish too.

[BEagle]

Of course I've also been told by a fish-heads wife that the RN shot down the Air India jet - but that's rubbish too.

With a Sikh-heating missile?

[forget]

Worst possible taste :=

.... but hilarious. :p

[rusty_monkey]

This isn't the sort of thing that can be kept under wraps. Is there any way that accessible records can prove he's telling porkies?


This sort of incident is handled by the Fighter Controllers and an FOI to Boulmer for records of all suspect aircraft that have entered UK airspace might well turn up some info.

The situation does happen and people very senior at whitehall do get phone calls to release aircraft for scrambles against none identified aircraft. Have a look at the boulmer web page

[AR1]

With a Sikh-heating missile?
And the next time she tells me 'in complete confidence' glass of wine in hand, then that's what I shall reply..:D

[Range Rat]

I was night shift at Shanwick. Bu**er all funny about it.:*:*

[Cows getting bigger]

There can be no disputing that, over the past few years, the RAF has launched many a fighter towards a civilian airliner that has cast doubt. Equally, it is fair to presume that any such launch starts to turn the decision making cogs such that, on occasion, the PM or a nominated deputy gets a phone call.

Speculating beyond that is rather pointless as I would offer that any FOI request would be quickly rebuffed by an OSA response.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

So, Range Rat, was there a possibility of an airliner being shot down over London?

As for fighter controllers mucking around in a busy TMA... the carnage would be immense.

[rusty_monkey]

Erm The ABMs are responsible for identifying and coordinating the response to all none identified aircraft in UK airspace and Air policing area No. 9 in liason with UK National Air Trafics authorities. It is well covered in the information given about the Branch and trade and is in many open source govt. and military documents. I think that mucking about with aircraft is pretty far from what they do.

[stagger]

Tony Blair's memoirs: Ex-PM almost had passenger plane shot down after 9/11 | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1308203/Tony-Blairs-memoirs-Ex-PM-passenger-plane-shot-9-11.html)

Mr Blair recalled in his book: 'A passenger jet had been out of contact for some time, and was heading over London.

I had the senior RAF commander authorised to get my decision. The fighter jet was airborne. For several anxious minutes we talked, trying desperately to get an instinct as to whether this was threat or mishap. The deadline came. I decided we should hold back.

Moments later the plane regained contact. It had been a technical error. I needed to sit down and thank God for that one!'

He decided to hold back based on "instinct"? :ooh:

[topper3]

Perhaps it was better than deciding to shoot based on "instinct* :ok:

[Trim Stab]

]Erm The ABMs are responsible for identifying and coordinating the response to all none identified aircraft in UK airspace and Air policing area No. 9 in liason with UK National Air Trafics authorities. It is well covered in the information given about the Branch and trade and is in many open source govt. and military documents. I think that mucking about with aircraft is pretty far from what they

I'm inclined to agree with Heathrow Director - it is difficult to imagine that military controllers would have the experience to handle such an event in London TMA.

Perhaps another responsibility to hand to suitably trained civilian control then?

[Range Rat]

I am sorry if I have caused any confusion. My second post ha
s been stopped by the moderators. I merely wished to say that as being on duty the night AIC182 blown up with with the loss of 329 lives.I found the posts of two of our members with 19113 posts between them to be of poor taste. I was told if I coudn't take a joke I shouldn't have joined.Most of the dead, I'm sure, didn't join up but I now suppose they did see the funny side eventually. I made no comment on crashing aircraft and security issues. This is my third and last post to Prune . I'm sure I will not be missed and I leave you to yourselves.

[ZeBedie]

People need to understand that Blair knows nothing about aviation. Of course the errant aircraft wasn't over London. More likely it was headed in our general direction and still far out when decisions were being made. Wasn't there one approaching from Germany with its transponder turned off which made the news?

[Deep and fast]

He had hard intelligence that it was carrying WMD!

D and f

[Range Rat]

Reread my post. I was referring to heat Sikh-ing missile. 23 June 1985. 329 deaths. My fault for not being clearer

[Teddy Robinson]

This is of course nothing whatsoever to do with pluggin his book ?
wonder how the press got hold of that lil show stopper .... via his agent perhaps ?

Business as usual. :yuk:

[PICKS135]

Should such an incident have occured. Then the aviation 'Enthusiasts' websites / e-mail lists would have been full of it being reported. Wouldnt have been surprised if a recording from a airband scanner would also have been produced.

If the enthusiasts can produce a list of what frequency goes to which TAD number. Then nothing is impossible

[Basil]

I watched his interview with Lefty Marr.
My opinion veered between 'What a nice guy' and 'This is a madman'
I'll leave you to guess my final conclusion.

[soddim]

So nobody on Pprune can recall Blair acting on instinct to save London?

In that case I doubt very much that he saved London any more than Brown saved the World's economy.

[Samuel]

Almost? It would be Bliars favourite word wouldn't it? I mean he almost told the truth once, but couldn't dreg up the courage or know-how. The more revelations he makes in excerpts from his Blair Book Of Lies, the more one realises what a complete fraud and a charlatan the man is. The trouble with him is, is that his massive conceit tells him he did nothing wrong...apart from inflicting damage on the UK which may never be repaired. The man is living proof that not everything in life has a purpose.

[stumpey]

I read this thread, and indeed just lately this whole site with incredulity! You lot crack me up, you really do.
You moan about the recently departed bunch of thieving, lying scumbags (Whoops sorry, fingers slipped I meant to type decent hard working public servants of course). Yet we have just had a general election in which WE voted into power over us ANOTHER bunch of decent.......(OK, you all know I really mean, lying thieving scumbag), politicians.
And thats the real problem. Which ever way one votes, we end up with a different bunch of (Thieving ly.........You get the description I'm sure by now).
So who are the bigger fools? Them for applying for and getting what I regard as a good, well paid job with lots of fringe benefits, or us for carrying on putting them there and moaning?



I just wish I was healthy enough to apply next vacancy!
Bring back Matrons and SWO's!

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

a lot of fluttering pieces will of course be horrendous, but not as much of an impact, physical or tactical, as a high velocity airliner ?

But can you guarantee that an airliner will disintegrate into lots of fluttering pieces if hit by a missile or two? Isn't there a good chance that the airliner will simply be crippled and will then plunge earthwards more or less intact?

[Wyler]

Great thread. :D:}:D:}:D:}:D:}

It is threads like these that wake you up to the fact that PPRUNE is nothing more than a virtual crewroom, with the usual amount of ill informed twaddle trotted out to kill the boredom (guilty as charged :E).

A funny, lively and entertaining crewroom, but a crewroom nonetheless.

[teeteringhead]

Almost? It would be Bliars favourite word wouldn't it? Reminds me of the KOS at Gutersloh way back when who claimed he got laid almost every night by schoolies one week .....:E

"Almost got laid on Monday, almost got laid on Tuesday, almost .....etc etc" :ok:

[RTR]

It seems, according to the DM, that Bliar was sitting behind the goalposts at St. James's Park (Newcastle) watching Jackie Milburn play footy. That was his claim.

Problem is that ooer Jackie retired when Bliar was FOUR and there were NO seats behind the goalposts. But ooer Tone did score an own goal!

Other examples show him as most of us know him.

The incident of this topic is flattened and thrown away as rubbish.

Therefore, every word Bliar wrote was factual crap!

[AR1]

Urban Myth - the Newcastle story. He did mention Newcastle and Milburn, but not in that context.
As for the London thing... Look no further than the following story that claims it happens almost every month. BBC News - RAF fighter jets scrambled amid terror plot fears (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8592070.stm)

Or try this one if you believe the Newcastle story and want to see what else people make up.
Political boasts | Red box | guardian.co.uk Politics (http://politics.guardian.co.uk/redbox/page/0,,862856,00.html)

Right, must dash, I'm off for a game of Swingball with Robert De Niro.

[4mastacker]

RTR,

If I may offer a small grammatical correction to your post - it was 'Wor Jackie': 'Ooer' is a phrase used by namby-pamby, soft, shandy-drinking southerners from points beyond Gatesheed.

I agree with the rest of your post though.

At the time of his alleged flight to a sunny place , I would guess the biggest thing flying out of Woolsington would have been the Ambassadors of BKS -- does that mean Bliar the Visionary can also claim that he thought of ETOPS long before anyone else?

[zkdli]

HD we could tell you but we would have to shoot you:E

[MATaxi]

The problem with Blair was , there was always too much "make-up".