Why do pilots Join EK??

[RjAgCR]

Hi there... I have been reading quite a lot on the EK thread and there is a little of everything there in regards to Pro's and Con's @ EK ... so I was just wondering...if life there for some is not that great, or maybe quite expensive... the lines are not that nice either... etc, etc..

Then why do pilots choose to Join EK ... ?? There has to be something good about it.. :sad: or not??

[kiwi]

I believe it's a disease called "Bright shiny new jetitus".

[saywhat]

99% of pilots that join EK, go to work, do their job, go home, live a life and get on with it. 1% of pilots that join EK Go to work, cant wait to get home to post their miserable life stories on Pprune.....Unfortunately for you, the 98% of the 99% could not be bothered to post here. I have no doubt that I shall be well and truly flogged for not berating the job at EK, but truth be told, it's not that bad...

[fractional]

Why do pilots Join EK??
Because it is a job and it is progress for many more than what we think it is.

[Iver]

Might I venture a few guesses:

Photos: Airbus A380-861 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Emirates/Airbus-A380-861/1741762/L/&sid=f6b459bc5ba10ce5da4db6eacc1a2eb3)

and

Photos: Airbus A380-861 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Emirates/Airbus-A380-861/1765549/L/&sid=779ca190aa6bdf3587ddfc39e516a3f9)

and

Photos: Boeing 777-36N/ER Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Emirates/Boeing-777-36N-ER/1767853/L/&sid=de0e7269f5b3f9c3050d32ff227e0a15)

It's all RELATIVE - you need to keep that in mind. EK understands this concept - it's called LABOR ARBITRAGE. A lot of pilots worldwide fly less-capable aircraft for far less money than what you would get at EK. The EK "package" with housing is considered great by some standards - regardless of what you think. Their situations are great for their home countries but not good when compared to other flying opportunities. Plus, many of those pilots might be bored with limited flying. It's a big deal for some people, for example, flying an A319 in Latin America for squat money which can qualify you to eventually fly an A380 someday for EK in the ME - some people would consider that a big improvement - regardless of the terrible rosters and haphazzard decision making by management. It's still a better situation for them relative to their original situation. How many Indian pilots would kill for an EK job? Right or wrong, everything is relative compared to their personal situations. What you might think is unacceptable could be perfectly acceptable (and maybe preferrable) to someone else from a worse situation.

I do think shiney-jet syndrome is alive and well. Everyone wants to fly the latest and greatest - those who don't are simply lying or delusional. If you want a desk job, go get one. If you really want to fly DC3s, quit EK and go to Africa and stop whining. Clearly, the rosters and the pay need to improve big-time at EK in order to keep pilot attrition levels lower - but who knows if that will ever happen with EK's management... It might not be what we want it to be, but it is reality...

[EK Snorkel]

and it is progress for many more than what we think it is.


haha ..best joke ever on PPruNe....:}

[InnocentBystander]

For what it's worth, the vast majority of the people recently hired were either furloughed/unemployed or were about to be laid off.

An EK paycheck beats no paycheck no matter how you look at it.

[Iver]

And by the way, Mexicana unfortunately declared bankruptcy a few days ago (perhaps on the way to liquidation) - plenty of Airbus A318/19/20 pilots there who would prefer EK to much lower-paying Mexican alternatives...

[kinteafrokunta]

The whole world has too many pilots and too many airlines. Very wasteful industry sucking in people with promise of glamour and money.

[RjAgCR]

Well... just what I thought :E !! It's not as bad as some people here like to put it.

It's just like everywhere else ... I haven't been flying for a long time but long enough to know that regardless of your job, paycheck, a/c type, people will always complain and will always want something different ....

I currently fly the A320 :cool:, and I know there is a lot of people out there that would give anything to be in my seat ... regardless of the paycheck or perhaps not, but one thing is for sure .. people will always have something to complain about .. even if flying for the best and biggest airline in the world!! :ugh:

Fly safe..!!

Iver: those pics are killing me!!

[Iver]

RjAgCr,

No doubt shiney-jet syndrome is alive and well. Who wouldn't want a crack at a 777 or A380? Especially if you were flying less-capable aircraft. With your A320 background, you probably would get placed on the Airbus fleet and could fly the A380 as an FO within 3-4 years of starting. That A380 seat in the picture could be yours.

That said, my mates at EK agree that pay and rostering need to be improved if attrition rates are to be reduced. Just read the other EK posts - long-haul flying can be absolutely exhausting and EK rostering is not good. Seems like many pilots are leaving as home-country airlines start to initiate more hiring. If EK were to positively address some key QOL issues, attrition levels might decline and more pilots would consider EK a career airline. Based on what I have read, not sure that will ever happen... Again, it's all relative - one person's heaven could be another person's hell.

[Jet II]

and

Photos: Boeing 777-36N/ER Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Emirates/Boeing-777-36N-ER/1767853/L/&sid=de0e7269f5b3f9c3050d32ff227e0a15)


Ah! - that well known view over the Charlie stands at 3 am as you wait 45 minutes for a highlift to take the wheelchair passengers off...... :E

[CIAS]

Pilots when offered a job at EK

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE6PNps5N9I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE6PNps5N9I)

Same pilots after a year, access to pprune, pissed off wife and an axe to grind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCxT_zarEMI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCxT_zarEMI)

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE6PNps5N9I)

Do the shiny new jets have a place to hang the tiara or is a dummy sterilizer the other option? Be glad you have a good paying job in a growing airline.

[RjAgCR]

Flying shiney-jets :cool: yeah!! who wouldn't like that... I guess I can put out with that syndrome..no problem :ok:, but... can someone explain what you mean by "pay and rostering need to be improved"?

:ugh:

[SOPS]

In response to the last post...Give me strength...does not anyone read this site:ugh:

[skyvan]

If I may reply to the desire for pay and rostering to improve:-

Pay: there was no payrise in 2009 (understandable) and the overtime threshold was increased to a level that ensured that it would very rarely be paid. There was a payrise in 2010, well below inflation rate (real, not the govenment published one) as well as there being no "notch increase", so basically everyone's salaries have stood still for two years, and in real terms we are worse off. Combine that with the Education Support Allowance not being increased last year, and the very real possiblity of that happening again this year as well as the implementation of a cap on the previously (contractually) free utilities, and it is fairly obvious that the management have used the economic crisis to trim back the flight crew package to what many now believe to be below the level required for a Middle East ex-pat level.

Rostering: Along with the increase in the point at which overtime kicks in, there has been insufficient recruitment over the last year to cope with the number of planes arriving and new routes opening up. Just about everyone you fly with states in the briefing that they are tired, and we have to watch each other. Captains seem to be rostered 94-98 hours per month, F/Os a bit easier at 82-88 hours. Combine that with "factoring" which does not count time in the bunk as flight time and you can fairly easily log well over your 100 hour limit that your home country licence (the basis for your UAE validation) requires. Add to this little mix a rostering system that is incapable of "understanding" that eastbound flights (+5 hours to local time) followed by a ULR westbound to LAX or SFO are not only tiring, but that combined with as much back of the clock flying that is done is fatiguing. The company has a Fatigue Management programme, I will leave others to share their opinions of it's effectiveness.

I hope clears up some of the issues around pay and rostering.

See you on the line :)

[fredsmith]

Thanks to skyvan and others for taking the time to post. There are those of us on the fence on this 'opportunity', and recruiting is not where you find the answers. Very little is put into print as far as 'company policy'. Thanks, Fred

[Gulf News]

Very little is put into print as far as 'company policy'

If it is concrete policy you want then you will have more success catching Osama Bin Laden . Your contract will state the bare bones and refer you to the conditions stated in the Company Employees Regulations Manual. This is where everything important that relates to your terms, conditions and indeed your future career with EK resides. There is also a plethora of other sub manuals that govern how everything works. Flight Operations Policy Manual, Training Policy Manual, Staff Travel Manual to name a few.

All of these documents are are designed to be fluid and the company uses them to full advantage with multiple changes and amendments every year. They are also not always easily assessable unless you know where to find them and as such contain a minefield for average Joe as it is normally an obscure reference buried in one of these documents that will be used to beat you over the head with should you transgress.

Fredsmith and RJAgCR hats off to you for doing some in depth research and not swallowing the recruitment blurb wholesale. One of secrets to Emirates' sauces is PR and marketing and the roadshows are a product of that. They will sell you a wonderfully gift-wrapped package just make sure you look in all corners of the box before accepting it. Pprune should not be your only source of research but reading the EK threads does give some perspective.

Like many here I am not saying don't come to EK. Just do so with yours eyes wide open.

[slimy]

I noticed in the 777 picture (link above) that there is a tissue box on the FOs side window, is this to wipe the tears away when they see the 380 and wish they had gone for Airbus!! :) sorry boeing guys!

Just to prevoke more comments!! :)

Of course many of you are right about the thread question, Most want to get onto wide body sooner than later!
:8

[Fellowship of the drink]

Oh please, enough of the "mine is the bigger than yours" nonsense.

A380 pilots: Your license is no better than mine, you're on the A380 because of timing and nothing else, so stop telling the cabin crew how your max landing weight is higher than the B777's max take off weight ...etc. Its getting a tad petty.

[Chewthecrude]

Ouch! Touchy!:{

[Uncle Wiggily]

Who cares what you fly. I would fly a paper airplane if I got paid more and didn't have to live in the 3rd world ****hole that is known as Dubai.

[Uncle Wiggily]

Why do pilots Join EK??

because RyanAir sucks a tad bit more than EK?

[harry the cod]

Gulfstreamleft

That statement applies to all Airlines nowdays,not just EK!



Slimy

Regarding tissues, yes, always plenty on the B777 / A330/340 flightdecks. Used to mop up the hot canapes from First and to carry the garlic bread that's provided with your soup. More may be needed to wipe the mouth after a hot pudding and creme anglaise. A380 guys need not worry about carrying tissues. Plastic cheese from economy doesn't crumble like ours!

Biggest, fastest, heaviest.........you're welcome to it. Just keep the caviar rolling on main fleet. ;)

Harry

[slimy]

And I thought we alll got the same meals, right I am handing in resignation! :* :confused:
:8

[saywhat]

By the way. Did you know that the 380 landing weight is.......

[troff]

What good is flying the 380 at EK anyway? If you were to leave where else could you fly it? At least with a 777 endorsement you can market yourself elsewhere and with a five day course you can get a 787 endorsement!
Just a thought.
Why do we come here? No one forced our hand, that's why I'm surprised to hear all the whining that goes on about EK and DXB.
Can't stand the heat? Get outta the desert.
T

[Fellowship of the drink]

Any endorsement is a good endorsement, particularly if you dont have to pay for it.

A380 endorsement? Yep bring it on. Proud to be a superjumbo pilot? Sure why not? but please do not rub your colleagues noses in the mine is bigger than yours nonsense. It divides the pilot group and perhaps that what management and dudes like A380-800 Driver wants.

[boocs]

No 320 time in Dragonair??? Doubt it!! At some stage your 'mates' would have flown the 320 in KA. We all have!

b.

[Fellowship of the drink]

A380-800 Driver,

I am just a little edgy at the end of a 95+ hour month......

[pool]

FotD

I guess you are just jellous of something that can drink a lot more without getting any further ......

[Iver]

If you have A330/A340 time at EK and then get to fly big bertha A380, I am sure your collective Airbus experience would be welcome elsewhere. Plus, you'd have some good stories to tell at the bar.

[RjAgCR]

now that we talking Airbus... does EK has any plans to buy the A350? :confused::confused:

and by the way, what is MTOW and max landing on the A380 and B777? :E

RjAgCR

[pool]

380 777

DOW 298 177
MZF 373 237
MTO 510 251
MLW 395 251
Payload 75 61

380 = 1.45 times weight of 777
380 = 1.25 times payload of 777
___________________________________________

DXB - LHR approx values, last 2 days:

Trip 380 = 82.7 777 = 54.5

spec burn on this trip (kg ker. used per kg trsp)

380 = 1.1 777 = 0.9

[GormanInkarnati]

777 MTO = 351:ok:

[Dropp the Pilot]

And if you then take out your calculator to show how much money is thrown away on any flight which is done by a 380 you will see why there are only two types of airlines flying the hideous piece of junk: those whose national governments held a gun to their head and those who ended up with them for free.

In both cases they will be gone as soon as humanly possible.

[pool]

Even the 340-500 has a higher Max T/O weight than a 777

maybe, but a very much lower payload (if i'm not mistaken around 48t, to vrfy).
Anyway, both AB have a lower MTOW to max payload ratio.
And for the 340 it may be explained through age, but not with the so called most modern, most fuel efficient airliner.
It's simply not true unless your calculator is a AB product ....

Nothing against the big bertha, but the numbers are not impressive.

[Instant Hooligan]

not impressive.........yet!!

[kiwi]

Who gives a toss? The only important statistic is how much you get paid for flying the thing!
I'd happily do a type rating on a wheelie bin if it paid more money.

[donpizmeov]

This is as about as interesting as hearing a mac owner justify why they wasted their money.

Luckily the whole pilot group is treated the same regardless of the BMI of what you fly. Good news is PILOT sickness rules are now being adjusted to better fit with those applied to cabin crew. A new HR group is being set up to manage it. Oh the joy!:ugh:

Oh sorry, didn't mean to interrupt...think it was all about how the 772lr is the only airplane in the fleet to underpreform the 345... discuss.

the don

[MrMachfivepointfive]

There is also something called the payload/range diagram. Both the 345 and 388 can take their maximum payload farther than the 773ER. The shorter the design range for maximum payload, the higher the percentage of payload as part of MTOW. Examples to the extreme:

Pt.103 microlight: Payload >50% of MTOW.
Saturn V: Payload <1% of MTOW

[Alconguin Crusader]

For all the talk of how heavy the A-380 is the bottom line is that those pilots get paid the same as the A-310 and every other airplane at EK. So the "heavy" pilots are doing it all for the same pay as the rest of us not including all the problems and delays they have.

[max AB]

Mine's about an 11 when cold at the gate, gets to about, oh I don't know, maybe a 16 or 17 warmed up at the hold point. Could stay airborne for 45 mins or so when it's hours were low but these days alot less than that. Doesn't fly much actually but gets out now and then for re-certification. As it's an Airbus, its of course metric.. Love to have one of those Super Jumbos you guys talk about.....

[Alconguin Crusader]

Remuneration? Middle of the road at best. After all we don't see many LH, DL, AF, AA or CP pilots at EK. We do see a lot of UK charter, Canadians, and 50 seat jet pilots living the dream in the sand.

Wide body jets? Yes EK has a lot of them. But as I alluded to earlier it is not the size of your airplane but the size of your paycheck and EK is a middle of the road airline for pay at best.

Route structure? Emirates goes to a lot of places, some good some really bad. I have seen the world as has all of the pilots here and the world sucks. Except for wester Europe, OZ, and the US you can have the 3rd world ****e holes.

Time to command? Depends where you come from. Some airlines have better time to command some have worse. With EK going on 5-6 years and possibly longer if they hire the dreaded DECs your mileage may be longer than you think or hope.

EK better than 99% of other airlines? You got to be kidding us! Maybe better than 50% of the ****e airlines out there but like I said not better than truly world class airlines that actually honor contracts and treat their employees with respect and not like a commodity.

If you want to join Ek I guess it come down to two things. Where your passport is from and what airline you are flying for. But buyer beware at Ek and Dubai. It is not the shinny glitsy city or airline that they make it out to be. You will be disapointed if you do join.

[kingpost]

They join because they do not want to believe what they read on these posts is true. It's only after 6 months do they realize that it is true, but it's too late!!

[si jet]

Guys,

I've been reading with interest the criticism that EK receives from a few people on here. What really baffles me [and it doesn't take alot] is how EK is considered bad in the eyes of many, but which other airlines in the world today offers a better over all package?

Let's take a quick look at the UK! Ryanair, Easy jet, BA,Virgin,Jet2,Flybe etc.............No!

Europe! Air france, KLM,LH, Iberia or how about Wizzair, Malev, Air Europa etc etc...............No!

USA.......................No
South/central America......Mexicana...oh no they ve just gone bust!
Asia...................... Maybe Cathay ??
Australia.................Maybe Quantas??

We talk about EK changing contracts without consultation with its employees. We have Balpa here in the UK and if the airline want to lay pilots off, they will whether you are being represented by Balpa, IPA or Rumpole of the Bailey. They may give you 30 or 90 days to get out but the end reult is still the same..........you are out!

Maybe and just maybe, they guys who hate life in Dubai and EK should do the decent thing and leave and head back to the wonderful seasonal contracts at Ryanair, or Easyjet and consider going to VS where it takes about 15 years to command with a few redundancies thrown in for good measure. I get the f*&king feeling with some people that no matter what they were getting paid, or no matter how good the aircraft are etc etc, they would still complain and moan about life there. Well fine...just leave then! End of!! Hand your notice in and head off to better T & C's else where and let the guys who are looking at making a life/career for themselves and their familes in the UAE go there without all this boll*&%ks all the time.

The next thing you'll be moaning about is its hot and got lots of sand there too....oh hang, on you do already!! Like I've said aviation is far from perfect and EK is no exception, but take a very hard look around and come back to me and tell everyone here which other airlines are offering a packakge that competes with Emirates? Genuine answers please based on facts and not because you are fed up with the sun and sand.

[nolimitholdem]

??? what the???

Are you a bean counter or something? Of course you have figures to back your claims.

Likewise I'm breathless waiting to hear how something burning 60 odd tons of fuel to carry a hundred more pax can make shedloads of money! lol Emirates makes money most likely because AB gave them the first bunch for free out of desperation. 90 orders is impressive, 12 deliveries, less so.

None of which changes the fact that the thing is pretty repulsive to observe from the outside. I mean whether women or airplanes, having the biggest girth and weight is not usually considered desirable! lol

Best 380 joke circulating: it's kind of like a va-J-J...ugly to look at, but pretty comfortable once you're inside!

:}

[si jet]

Im no expert on anything except porn, but by your tone, you are!! I've been through the selection and passed it and just wainting for a start date. I know an awful lot of pilots there who are loving it. So I hope that answers your question. I am not defending EK or claiming I am an expert.

I just simply dont get all these moaning t*ats that slag off the company and yet years later they are still there, or claiming it's crap, as if the other airlines elsewhere are so much better; or maybe there and I can't find them!

Maybe you can go go back to my original thread and give me your opinion on what I asked earlier?

[donpizmeov]

Too bloody right Si jet.

And of course all those other airlines you mentioned are making $1billion profit during the wolds worse ever financial crisis. Oh wait there, no they aren't!!! Good to see EK now compared to easyjet and ryanair. Oh how things have changed.

Should we sit back and watch our conditions erode without saying anything just because they may be better than the conditions you enjoy? Hmmmmm, that seems like pilot logic. Shouldn't we support each other, we fight for our conditions, and hopefully maintain a good remuneration package for you to join, wouldn't that eventually filter down to other airlines as well? Supply and demand and all. As long as pilots are willing to work for less and less the spiral will continue and the bean counters will smile as they bank their extra bonuses. What other profession would make a statement like yours? "Oi you lot...work for the same miserly amount as we do and stop your bitching!" Where will this stop? Will we all end up on a brand new flight instructor pay forever? If you have a lower limit of what you think we should all be reduced to please tell us your facts? If you can't find something wrong with this you need to take a cup of tea and a little lie down.

I know there is no intelligence test when deciding who can hold an ATPL, but sometimes the way pilots are ready to roll over and work for less than someone else to get ahead disappoints me.

As a wise man once said, pilot unions are there to protect pilots from pilots.

The Don

And if anyone really gives a sh@t what kind of metal they are locked into for hour after hour, you need to get a hobby!!!:E

Nolimit...you see these hundred extra seats that you say the 180 has are in the 1st and bussiness class cabins....you see they pay more for there tickets in these cabins than all those economy pax that the cripple 7 carries. That's how it makes more money. Cant draw the pictures here, but hope you understand all the same. And no i do not get locked in a 380 and could not care less what out preforms what.:}

[donpizmeov]

get to work!!!:E

[Jet II]

Also, (and it ain't rocket science) - If you have 517 people to cart to London. Which is it going to be cheaper to do. - use 1 x A380, or 2 x clapped out 777s?
:E

Surely in that equation you need to add to the A380 scenario a 777 freighter for all the freight you cant get on the 380? :p

[RjAgCR]

Very interesting numbers here... both A380 and B777!! A320 ...well different story :{

Anyways ... can anyone comment on the A330 and A340 routes, like destinations and layovers... stuff like that! :ok: Also, how is life arround the appartment buldings for no kids guys like me...!!??? Shopping malls..anything for the wife to do while husband is "working" ...lol

[Wizofoz]

Also, (and it ain't rocket science) - If you have 517 people to cart to London. Which is it going to be cheaper to do. - use 1 x A380, or 2 x clapped out 777s?




It's cheapest to see which 365 of them are willing to pay more to go on the 777, and leave the rest to fly on Ryanair.

[rodney rude]

Hey A380-800

I reckon a Caribou type rating would be more useful than A380 !!!!

Same goes for you The Don - more valuable than a "clapped out 777" endorsement.

Rod!!

[donpizmeov]

Too right Rodney....ahhhh the mighty CC08.....

[troff]

Use 1 380, carry all the pax and maybe all their bags, and no cargo.
OR
Use 2 777's, carry all the pax, all the bags, AND a $hitload of freight:E.
Would you still use a "Maybe"?
The yield is simply so much better on the Boeing.
How can AB market that thing as eco-friendly?

[FUSE PLUG]

People are NOT where the money is 380-800. In FY 2009 the Airlines with the highest operating profit in the world were 1. FedEx and 2. UPS, both of whom do not carry people. Boxes require 0 cabin crew, 0 in flight meals, 0 Lav's and make an all around lighter aircraft and much lower operating cost. Not to mention the highest paid pilots in the world are 1. FedEx and 2. UPS.

Cargo is king

A380-800 you are starting to sound like a noob, lay off before you give yourself a bad rep.

Sources WSJ and Airlinepilotscentral.com:ok:

[max AB]

Apology to make, I re-checked and its a 10 at best. Will turn the temp up on the a/c I think. Still jealous of guys with their Super Jumbo. I used to think they were only in porn flicks.....

[nolimitholdem]

A380-800,

holy crap..."cripple 7"...wow...that's about as funny as the "A-180"....*yawn* I'm thinking of changing my name to the a/c I fly...so I can be as cool...let me guess, big Airbus stickers on the flight bag, but won't admit your last job was the RJ out of Armpit, Wisconsin? My CC friends on the 380 have met a few of those types, I think it's a fair bet they've crossed paths with ya. Do say hello and don't forget to remind them about the takeoff and landing weights. They might act disinterested but deep down they're really just dying to hear more!

:ok:

lol and don't worry....from my admittedly unscientific informal polling of fellow Crippled drivers, not a single one is exactly making a stampede over to join you. So you are safe to revel in your Super glory!

Sorry, but I'm hardly convinced that the A380 makes more than the thinnest of margins, if any, and THAT only due to massive discounts by a desperate manufacturer. Time will tell I suppose. It's not like economics (or anything else) about Emirates or the ME is transparent or honest.

[donpizmeov]

Max I know your metric but is it mm or cm as the unit?

the Don

[5star]

Actually nolimitholdem's post is well said.
However have to admit that the whale is great as pax...

[LHR Rain]

380 poster sounds like the typical small C%$£ case.

[Wizofoz]

380,

Problem is you've missed the essential truth about what the Mid East forum has become.

It doesn't matter what you post, as long as it is negative and whinging, it must not be challenged or corrected.

Post anything else- be it positive, neutral or even not sufficiently hysterically negative (i.e balanced and factual) and you are a small c0ck, pro-company, management spy with a hidden agenda.

Pity, proon used to be a useful source of information.

[LHR Rain]

And being dellusional or suffering from Stockholm syndrome is quite okay?

[LHR Rain]

Pilots need to know what EK is all about BEFORE they join. As we all know after we join it is too late.
The pay is middle of the road as has been said before. What one needs to look into is how expensive Dubai is. £50 for very slow internet a month, food that is 30% more than in the UK and petrol that is getting to be on par with England.
What has not been stressed is how bad EK mangement treats everyone. It lies constantly and does not give a damm. It does not honour its contracts and has no intention of doing so if it does not suit them. It sacks pilots for little or no reason, (Let's not bring up YMML.) from everything for taking a picture in front of a broken airplane to bringing a pillow to your girlfriend in economy. They have seemed to back off a little because they know they are having trouble getting pilots and word gets out. Yes, thank God for pprune.
If you do come to the sand understand it is very tough to get out of Dubai with all of the bonds they put on you not to mention the money it costs you to move you and your family to the middle east. Don't come for a lark. You will have to be here for about 5-6 years to make it worth your while. Then it will be time to upgrade (if you're lucky) and you will want to stick around longer all the time probably mssing home.
The pilots that come from the bottom feeders have a different story.

[GMC1500]

and petrol that is getting to be on par with England.

Get serious!!
my rough calculation puts it at about 25p per litre. Is that what they pay in the UK now?? Maybe 30 years ago!

[Wizofoz]

And being dellusional or suffering from Stockholm syndrome is quite okay?

quod erat demonstrandum

[new tomcat]

I am sure glad that I did not join Emirates a couple of years back. I was hired but did not sign up and it was the best decision of my life seeing all of what Emirates has done to its pilots. The pilots at Emirates must be incredibly frustrated at what has transpired to them.
Good luck to you and for those of you considering EK, buyer beware. I don't what to see you complain in 6-8 months on pprune.

[cerbus]

Take it from a guy who left the UK to join Emirates. Don't do it.
Emirates changes the goal posts all the time and never in your benefit. They shaft you 6-7 times a year in various capacities.

[White Knight]

petrol that is getting to be on par with England.

hahahahahahaha - the jokers are out in force:\:\:\:\:\

It sacks pilots for little or no reason, (Let's not bring up YMML.)

On YMML you're wrong matey boy! Not following SOP and nearly trashing the aeroplane WILL get you sacked from most airlines... Would you disagree with EK if YOUR family had been on 'RG? Suggest you find out in your own time the bit they missed:ugh:

[si jet]

LR,

thanks for your points and all the other guys who currently fly for EK. I completely understand your points about management changing the conditions and the Pilots flying 92 hours a month etc etc. All this was explained to us by the Pilots in an open Q & A session during the Selection process. EK and Dubai are far from perfect and I am not saying they are. Aviation has changed so much in the last decade, that it has become unrecognisable.

I work for a company were there is no job security, no expansion plans, no career progression, and no pay rise for 4 years, and no tea or coffee etc etc. The aircraft have got tens of thousands of hours on them and are rarely serviceable. Morale is rock bottom and people are leaving in their droves.

So as I have said, make the comparison with my company! The pay after tax...I'll say that again 'After Tax' is £2800 per month for a SFO flying a jet, and I've got all my bills to pay and mortgage etc to pay out of that. My roster is nearly always changed whether I like it or not. I can't plan anything and therefore my family suffers. My T & C's have been changed without my say so, and we are represented by a union.

So whats the alternative? Stay here in the UK and wait for another recession and another phone call at 10 pm to tell me I've escaped the latest round of job cuts. When was the last time EK laid off their Pilots? What kind of bonus are you expecting this year...16 weeks pay I've heard? on top of your £5k per month take home plus your utility bills paid for, or near as damn it, 90% of the school fees, 4 Bedroom villa, and living costs comparable with the UK. 92 hours a month is bloody hard work. I can't disagree with you. But what kind of hotels do you stay in when on a night stop? At least EK give a you a good hotel not like my place where you are fighting to have a free tea bag. You wake up in the morning with job security. That for me is King! Not the shiny 777/340 or whatever. Security!!

If you don't follow the SOP's what do you expect the airline to do? They have a set of rules for your safety and everyones else's. We all make mistakes and EK knows that; but if guys are persistant offenders or trouble causers why keep hold of them? Do you think O'leary is any different. Go and fly for Ryanair then if you think it's so great there. How about Virgin? Just look forward to 15 years in the right hand with a few rounds of redundancies thrown in for good measure. Take you pick...

I don't work there yet! But wake up for christ sakes! Take a very hard look around any where else in the world and see how wonderful it is elsewhere. It isn't...simple! I am firm believer it's what you make of it or anything for that matter. It's like anything though! We all become complacent and take things for granted, but if BA or Easy jet where so much better why are those guys applying aswell. I've choosen BA and Easy because they are the big hitters in their relevent fields.

My original point was this; if it is so bad at EK, then leave. Thats it! They don't want unhappy pilots and you don't want to work for an airline that mistreats its pilots. Everyone happy!

One question though...why is the attrition rate at EK only 2%.:confused:

[Iver]

As I mentioned earlier, your situation is always "relative." You may currently live in India with very low pay and no advancement - EK then looks like a goldmine no matter what the crusty old EK pilots say... It all depends on your current situation and perspective.

Also keep in mind that getting a 777 or A330/340 type rating and operating experience certainly don't hurt because those are marketable assets worldwide.

[RjAgCR]

I agree with si_jet and Iver 100% .... it all depends on your situation before joining EK ...

We don't know what made everyone here wanting to join EK but it for sure was something good, or why you did it at all?... what you think or how you feel now about EK is a different story ... but overall I belive it is a good package...of course, depending on your situation..is all RELATIVE :D

Research has to be done, specially before making such an important decision ... this is why I posted this thread and I thank you all for your inputs on the subject...its really helpfull!:ok:

[pool]

It sort of comes down to a difficult choice.

Do you want to marry and live with the ugly but extremely rich bitch who guarantees you a nice income and easy life. It will however be her choice eternally as to if, how and when you have to sleep with her and she can throw you out any time she wants with absolutely no recourse for you.

On the other hand you can marry the pretty and decent girl with no money, you might struggle to pay your bills, but she enables you a more or less happy life, AND you retain your freedom of choice.

The metaphor applies not to the companies, but to the environement, the culture, the civilisation.

Take a deep breath and make an informed choice. What we want to get through to you, is that once you are here, it is very expensive and difficult to get out again. Especially with a family.

[RjAgCR]

Pool -

When you say " it is very expensive and difficult to get out again. Especially with a family." you mean "get out) as to living there (restaurants, malls, movies, bars/pubs, etc)? or get out as to getting out of EK and back home? are there any bonds with EK?

Can anyone here that flies the A330 or A340 give me an example of a given month flight line? like...how many days off (are the days consecutives? think not..) how many hours a month? ... you know, that little paper in which you actually plan you life for the next month...:confused:

[Laker]

Mexicana pilots were used to a pretty sweet deal. Pre-bankrupcy Mexicana pilots were making more than 20KUSD/month with national carrier work rules and rosters. They were doing better than most of their peers in the USA. I'm sure many will be happy to continue working with EK but they will probably come with their eyes open.

[EFC 3 DAYS]

si_jet your post #89 above stated the following:

I completely understand your points about management changing the conditions and the Pilots flying 92 hours a month etc etc. All this was explained to us by the Pilots in an open Q & A session during the Selection process.

Seeing as you were lucky enough to have been given, what must be, a satisfactory explanation by management during your interview process, as to why hours are being increased and conditions changed on EK pilots, maybe you could share those same said reasons to the PPRUNE group. I'm assuming that it was a satisfactory explanation because you are planning on leaving your current position to go to Emirates in spite of teh fact that others are briefing you and others on a daily basis as to the poor way management treat their staff.
From what I am reading on these posts, Emirates management are not sharing these same said reasons as to why they increase flying without compensation etc etc with its pilot group so the fact that you were told is certainly exciting for all.

[kiwi]

Si Jet, it really is a shame you didn't ask about the first officer, who was under training, getting the sack for an honest and genuine mistake while under training (not a deliberate breach of SOP!) that went unnoticed by his training Captain, who was supposed to check what he was doing.
I wonder if you will be so high and mighty if the axe falls on your neck in similar fashion.
You sound like an arrogant t*at! I'm sure you're going to be great fun to be with on the flight deck

[145qrh]

Come on give Si Jet a break, he is pontificating on a subject we obviously know very little about..no wait..that's him t@#t:ugh:

[si jet]

Well thanks guys for tellling me what you think! Some of you are so unhappy with life in Dubai and Emirates that you are heading elsewhere for a better life style, T & C's etc etc. Good for you! I don't remember saying that I know how great EK or Dubai is?

Well as I ve mentioned already...leave! Go and get a job at Air New Zealand 'Kiwi' Im sure with the way you eloquently put yourself across, they will be offering you a position in no time. I never said in any my posts that Emirates is the utopia of aviation! It's not...we all know that! But look at my situation and thousands like me. It must be nice to wake up and have a bit of job security. Have you ever been made redundant?

The F/O who lost his job during his training; I don't know what happened to the poor lad. He may have been really badly treated or he may have struggled all the way through his training...maybe you could expand. But I know guys who have been chopped during their line training with a British companies. These companies are here to make money and there is very little slack in the system, we all know that.

I am not arrogant, even if some of you think I am. I am NOT saying it's a wonderful company, but there are so many guys here who are not happy with their currrent career at EK, then move on. Some of you are clearly so pi%*ed off with life, that you must have handed your notice in and are counting down the days until you move on to pastures new. Good for you! But there are some people on here [Pprune] that if you gave them a million pound a week, and asked them to fly one day a week to their destination of choice they would still be moaning.

Well maybe I shouldn't have expressed my opinion on the matter considering I'm an arrogant tw*t. I've got several mates and a family member at EK, so I guess I must have been misinformed on life there. What I would like to know is, of all the guys who hate life in Dubai so much, how many of you are leaving and when?

I used to enjoy Pprune, as a lot of the guys here used to have sensible informed views both positive and negative, but now, if anyone disagrees or have a different opinion they are slated. Fine! Well good luck to the guys who are ready to move on. I do apologise for expressing my limited opinion especially on a subject i know very little about.

[EFC 3 DAYS]

si jet
Why dont you explain the statement you posted pertaining to you being given a reasonable explanation as to why EK treats its pilots like they do?You seem to have been given some great justification. I am awaiting for you to enlighten me as to the "Magna Carta" of EK management....



I completely understand your points about management changing the conditions and the Pilots flying 92 hours a month etc etc. All this was explained to us by the Pilots in an open Q & A session during the Selection process.

[145qrh]

Well Si Jet ask yourself this question.

I am considering leaving a command at EK to join a UK lowcost on a 70% contract.

I have no expectations at this company, apart from not being here.

Am I wrong? mis-guided ? or heaven forbid just experienced enough to know that EK is a sh*t job. NO rights. NO recourse, a worthless contract, working for the lowest form of management.

A company who shafts it employees when it is making record profits in one of the worst ever periods in commercial aviation.


But hey you are satisfied by some (non-binding) words of wisdom from recruitment. Well I pity you. You have enough available information to make a reasoned decision. When I joined it was all good news "streets are paved with gold". I know better now from bitter experience, but if you are willing to ignore the collective wisdom of many burned people then so be it. You have been warned.

Dont't come running to me with broken legs after you fall out if the tree.

D.Trotter "There are none so blind as them that won't listen"

[5star]

btw si jet now that we're talking. Next time you go to one of the blinky EK road shows, ask them about the fellow EK aviators who received personal threats/intimidation coz of calling fatigued or raising concerns about fatigue levels on the T7 and 330 fleet?

The underlining thing is that for most people this used to be a great job, if not the greatest. Honestly it really was a few years back. Since 2 years however it has turned into a small nightmare for most of us. And yes indeed, most guys I know are looking elsewhere....

You really sound like one of our managers btw: don't like it f^k off.... DXB and EK will be the perfect place for people with an attitude like yours....Hurry up....

[si jet]

EFC, The Pilots were saying they were flying 92 hours a month without the overtime payment. They were not happy about it! Thats the point they made. Other things that are not good about the company were also discussed. They told us ask any questions that were of concern to us and they answered it honestly. That's all i was saying...they didn't deny anything that was true and cleared up things that were not true.

I am not defending F*cking Emirates. I am just telling what they said. End of! Thanks for all the warnings gents...I really appreciate it! But please stop with all this "you'll regret it" and "I warned you" Bollocks. Good luck with your futures and I take heed of your advice. Thanks! I wish I'd never mentioned anything! If I don't like I'll leave and you can all tell me what a arrogant Tw*t I am!

Everything on the forum becomes so personal. Anyway again, I wish you every success with you careers whether turning down a command at EK or working a 70 % contract with a UK lo-co...Good Luck! You roll the dice and take your chances!

[harry the cod]

Get over it. There were little complaints when guys were earning 15 hours of overtime. Quite happy to do the hours then for some strange reason. Funny how fatigue vanishes when the dirhams hit the bank.

5 star

What utter crap. The only people who get bollocked for fatigue issues are those that take the piss with sickness. Just look at the same names crop up month after month, day here, 2 days there. Locals are the worst. Those that commute and can't get their swops after 6 repeated attempts on yahoo groups are next. Yes, if you don't like it, piss off. :ok:

Harry

[kiwi]

Harry, this is the crap that Alan S is stating however there is a massive difference doing a little overtime occassionaly and being rostered 92 + hours month after month after month, while conducting operations that take you over massive time zone changes (which we didn't use to do as much).
Add to this factorisation on ULR flights then yes fatigue is a huge issue in this company.
I can count the number of times I did overtime each year, before their new policy, on the fingers of one hand.
Add to this, that when you have leave that is less than a total month, the company schedules you for almost a full month in what remains, contrary to what they promised when the nominal credit for leave was removed.

[Femme Fatale]

We also have seen what happens to families moved half a world away from home and find they don't like Dubai, the stress when the guys think EK is great but the wives hate being away from family and friends, living in the company compound with all the gossip and being treated like a second class citizen ie no bank account.


Mmm.... not quite true...
Just imagine if some of the wives actually contribute to the household and not sit around having their nails done while the maid looks after the chilrden and cleans the house.....
Maybe if they work and earn their share, there will be no time for the gossip in the compound and they can have their own bank accounts;)

[dustyprops]

145qrh, you jammy git, I would absolutely jump at that opportunity your looking at. Part-time, that is the way forward. Good luck with it and enjoy the time off.

[harry the cod]

Kiwi & Brokenenglish

Fair comment and I do actually agree with both your points.

I acknowledge that the Company has moved the goalposts and many VP's and above have benefiited off the backs of the front line staff. Pilots, as well as many other departments including cabin crew and engineering have faced large increases in productivity. This hasn't been to ensure the survival of Emirates, it was to ensure our bosses got the big bonus.

I spent 20 minutes recently, listening to a neighbour whinging about life in EK and all the crap flights he gets. It was depressing. However,3 years ago he couldn't wait to tell us all how much o/time he was making. He never once referred to the work load. It was literally an extra 8-10,000 dhs in overtime alone some months. As an F/O.

I guess that was the catalyst for my rant last night......and half(ish) bottle of wine. :oh:

Harry

[145qrh]

Don't have the job yet, don't think I can afford it,

but would like 70% flying on 100% money..:p

[Easy Ryder]

Well a few days ago I was having a convo would a good friend of mine whos EK 777 Capt.

He's worked well over 100hrs in Aug, and to quote him "I was going to call sick for a couple of days, then I realised how much overtime money I would get! So i was like, yeah use me as much as you want!"

So just to add fuel to the fire there's definitely an element of remuneration making 'problems' go away.

[RjAgCR]

What's the overtime pay per hour... F/O and Capt's?

[Cloud Bunny]

NO rights. NO recourse, a worthless contract, working for the lowest form of management.

A company who shafts it employees when it is making record profits in one of the worst ever periods in commercial aviation.

Hmmmm....better off avoiding the UK Loco's then! That sounds par for the course over here as well. I'll happily swap you though! :{:p

[nolimitholdem]

Post anything else- be it positive, neutral or even not sufficiently hysterically negative (i.e balanced and factual) and you are a small c0ck, pro-company, management spy with a hidden agenda.

Wiz,

I'd just like to say that I find your personal admission to be very brave. Such honesty is refreshing.

Now if only A380-800 could similarly escape his closet of denial, he'd probably sleep better than he has in years!

[cerbus]

Jet Si is ready for management in the middle east with his attitude. If you dont like it leave. Great management style and a perfect fit for Emirates.

[Saturn]

Is this the Cathay Pacific forum??? cause man it sounds like a lot of the same sh**t.

Do not forget your corporate code of conduct people! (see my post in fragrant harbor).:}

[Mr Good Cat]

If you don't follow the SOP's what do you expect the airline to do? They have a set of rules for your safety and everyones else's. We all make mistakes and EK knows that; but if guys are persistant offenders or trouble causers why keep hold of them? Do you think O'leary is any different. Go and fly for Ryanair then if you think it's so great there. How about Virgin? Just look forward to 15 years in the right hand with a few rounds of redundancies thrown in for good measure. Take you pick...

Si Jet,

I try to hold a balanced view on here and I will gladly point out to prospective joiners and new joiners both the good and the bad points (there are many of both).

However, don't be so NAIVE with regards to job security. My one gripe out here (once you've dimissed the frustrating but inevitable T&C changes) is the lack of support for pilots.

You say we all make mistakes and EK knows that? Yes they do, but they don't care for it. It's easier to sack you - that way for Management there is someone to blame other than themselves. This is a brand new civilisation only 30 or so years old that still has a middle-ages mentality regarding justice, science and indeed flight safety... this is NOT a dig at the UAE it's just a fact of life.

When an incident happens someone important wants a response, someone to punish. So he goes to the person below him and slaps him round a bit; that person then goes looking for the lowest common denominator to slap around a bit - and that my friend is you and I.

Forget fair investigations, forget independent analysis - it's a case of "that guy could have made me look silly, off with his head"... I'm sorry if that doesn't fit in with your comfy UK sensibilty but you should learn VERY quickly that this is how it works out here. And not just in your job either.

I can't speak for the Melbourne crew, yes they broke SOP's. Maybe there's more to it than that - why did they nreak them. Was it negligence? Was it the Captain, was it the First Officer, was it Fatigue?

I can however speak for the guys in Manchester, Accra et al who simply made a human error... as you said:

We all make mistakes

Well the crews in these incidents did and were fired. The poor FO in the Manchester incident was still under training...! Go figure! How do you be 'negligent of duty' when you're still being trained how to accomplish your duty?

I'm still waiting for some clear information from the Company regarding exactly what happened and how we're all supposed to avoid making the same mistakes in the future. That is traditionally how flight safety progresses - unfortunately we have an open-minded, excellent and supportive flight safety team at EK who are not given any freedom to do their jobs in any capacity whatsoever. I sometimes wonder if they are just there to satisfy the CAA requirements just to employ someone with said title. Ask the the former top guy in the Safety Dept why he left...:ouch:

=====

I am very sorry that your current employment has been such a miserable one but please please please don't be naive and try to come here with an open mind. This is NOT the UK. It has it's good and it's bad points but don't be taken in by the EK sales schpiel as you'll be so disappointed if you do... marketing is what they're good at - it's the reason all our planes are full even though we are neither the best nor the cheapest airline!

Good luck with your move and we look forward to working with you. Dubai can be a fascinating place to spend a few years, especially if you have young kids, and the weather here is a dream for those migrating from Northern Europe.

See you soon.:)