VFR Operations At Tamworth

[Dick Smith]

Flew into Tamworth VFR in the heli last Saturday. The place was virtually dead. Even the flying club has a notice that clearly says “Closed”. Someone told me they don’t have any aeroplanes!

Magnificent cavok day – on departure the Air Traffic Controller wanted to know why I did not give a departure report. Being VFR I told him I understood it was the rules. He promptly told me that the Enroute Supplement makes it clear that departure reports are required for VFR in certain circumstances.

I have spent about thirty minutes looking at the mighty-complex (!) pages and hundreds and hundreds of words in relation to Tamworth and can’t work out why the procedures are different – if they are – than other Class D towers.

At the same time, a helicopter was held for twelve minutes at the control zone boundary in cavok conditions waiting for parachutists to drop. I regularly operate to Goulburn airfield and we can get in and out with the parachute operations by using visual techniques and good airmanship.

I wonder just what the procedures are at Tamworth and other Class D towers and why this would keep a helicopter – which was low on fuel – holding for such a long period.

Any suggestions and comments would be appreciated.

[Ando1Bar]

I don't have a chart in front of me, nor am I familiar with Tamworth these days, but did your climb take you out of the TW CTR and into their CTA? If so, they require a departure report. If you remain below the D CTA steps no report is required.

Caught us out a few times early on at another aerodrome when the June 3 changes were implemented. It was good of CASA to highlight this requirement during their roadshows :rolleyes:.

Doesn't really affect the former GAAPs as their surrounding airspace is usually different (in my neck of the woods anyway).

[Ixixly]

To put it simply Mr Smith, Military. Becomes a bit troublesome in Darwin as well, slightly different procedures and such. With the parachuting stuff up here the pilots usually call when their chutes are on the ground which can help expedite the sorts of problems like what you described.

Major issue as I see it is not knowing exactly where the parachutists are, so they give them a 3-5nm operating circle from the drop zone and generally get people to steer clear. Also it can depend on the controllers, at one particular parachuting operation I flew for they were pretty good with getting traffic around us and we helped them as much as possible by letting them know when it was all clear for traffic to get through, so cooperation plays a big part in my opinion, some of the dodgier drop pilots aren't always aware of these sorts of things.

And as far as i'm aware, all class D airspace requires a departure report does it not? Certainly Maroochydore did when I was around there about a year and a half back and Alice Springs does, was there only a month ago now. But usually they'll request you go ahead with departure report as opposed to asking why you didn't?

[Jabawocky]

.........here ya go!

Departure Reports
VFR aircraft departing a Class D CTR are not required to provide departure reports when exiting the CTR into Class G airspace. All other flights require a departure report as per AIP. This procedure will apply at ALL Class D aerodromes.

[rioncentu]

Yes I too got caught out after the 3 June changes where you DO need a departure report unless departing Class D CTR (which I now know is 1000 foot or 6nm in most cases)


So no report if departing the control zone at or below 1000. Report for anything else.


As said above, this was NOT explained at the CASA roadshows.

[Dick Smith]

I departed at low level into the class G airspace so why was I forced to give a departure report?

[Orion Delta]

Dick, I departed Tamworth into Class G 3 weeks ago and was told it was not necessary to give a report. So I wonder why they got up you ??? Interesting.

[Wally Mk2]

Dick I think "jaba' is right there (despite him flying a SE plane:}) with his ref but I have heard a few VFR lighties going out of AY mentioning that they are clear of their zone or past a particular local town & an Alt report given as well. Most likely a 'helpful' call only due local knowledge but when next I pass thru AY I'll ask the fat controller but the way I read it a dep report is not req into G air:)
See Dick it pays to be a nobody that way ya get left alone:ok:


Wmk2
p.s.....when next do we see a toy plane show at yr property Dick?

[Fly-by-Desire]

ATC need to have clear airspace 1Nm around the drop zone for a drop height less than 10,000ft and then it increases above that (i think its 1.5NM for FL drop heights) Not 100% on the figures quoted but regardless this means planes can get quite close to the DZ, dont know why them guys are getting held outside the control zone! :bored:

[Dick Smith]

The ATC on duty about noon on Saturday insisted that I give a VFR departure call even when I said I believed it was not required.

Was he correct?

Surely Scurvy would know?

[Lodown]

And what happens to you if you don't give a call? Do you get a visit from the AsA no-necks in the middle of the night?

In my limited understanding, the departure call is for TAAAAATS. Departing VFR into Class G...who cares?

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Flew into Tamworth VFR


That was your big mistake Dick!

Never fly VFR - even on these beautiful CAVOK days.

Its just too hard! :E

Dr :8

PS: Your helicopter/meat bomb story is interesting. I fly in, around and through the meat bombing areas at Innisfail and Mission Beach all the time - never a problem. A quick chat on the radio keeps us separated!

[VH-XXX]

ATC need to have clear airspace 1Nm around the drop zone for a drop height less than 10,000ft and then it increases above that (i think its 1.5NM for FL drop heights)

We operate in and around chutes all the time. Chutes on one side of the strip and aircraft on the other. It would not be uncommon for drop clearance to be given with an aircraft flying at less than 1 mile so if they are being pedantic about giving clearances that is a little average / poor form as it works well / safely elsewhere.

[LeadSled]

And what happens to you if you don't give a call? Do you get a visit from the AsA no-necks in the middle of the night?Lowdown,
No, not AsA, just a snail mail missive from CASA Compliance and Enforcement,( or whatever they are called now) inviting you to pay an Administrative Fine ( usually quite steep compared to an automotive "bluey"), plus any demerit points "as appropriate", or informing you of your alternative right to prosecution.
Tootle pip!!

[Captain Sand Dune]

To put it simply Mr Smith, Military

Che? :confused: Ain't no military controllers at Tamworth.

[Jabawocky]

Gents

Meat Bombing in CTA is different to meat bombing in Class G ;)

I have been "Required" to be OCTA on descent while IFR but visual.......and it was all so the YCAB meat bomber could drop his load.

Next time I will take a while to become visual and see what happens :E.

Dick,

Scurvy is not here any more, but I know how to find him and get a reply. I suspect you are right and the guy in TW is wrong. Maybe they need some additional time to adjust and training just like the pilot folk do!

J:ok:

[peuce]

as Jaba said ...

Departure Reports
VFR aircraft departing a Class D CTR are not required to provide departure reports when exiting the CTR into Class G airspace. All other flights require a departure report as per AIP. This procedure will apply at ALL Class D aerodromes.

I haven't got a chart here, but just a thought ....

Did you actually depart the CTR(Zone) or did you cut into their CTA?
If so, you would be required to provide a departure report by the letter of the law.

[Clearedtoreenter]

Tamworth is a bit of a joke when its quiet... I went in IFR on a public holiday recently, had to wait an hour or so for my pax - there was just me and the controller, not one other plane arrived or departed - he was most helpful and friendly and we had quite a chat. The terminal was absolutely deserted - just a lady looking after the equally deserted cafeteria. I think she was glad to see someone too! When I departed, still completely alone, I wasn't sure if the controller needed a departure report so I asked and was told not to bother. I then went on to Williamtown Class E/CTAF with no controller or anyone else on the ground to be heard anywhere .. what a contrast! I was mixing it with 3 jets on the way in and two on the way out... we worked it all out - somehow. Makes you wonder about our ATC system - when places like Tamworth can be so deserted and but need a controller who is obviously desperate for a C150 or two to keep him busy - when we have jets with hundreds of people on board at other places and no controllers of any type at all.

[peuce]

I'd suggests that you re-visit on a week day when the Defence Flight Screening mob are in fulll flight ... you might get a prickle up the back of your neck, or two.

[Dangly Bits]

Take a look at YBSU. (Maroochydore)
The VTC says D CTR SFC to 4500. That is wrong! It only goes to 1500. How the hell is a pilot supposed to know that you have flown into CTA if the map says nothing? No NOTAM, nothing. What does Ht does the TW CTR stop at?
Now if AsA produces an incorrect map, you would have to assume they are responsible for issuing a NOTAM wouldn't you?
Fix it!

[Jazzy78910]

I visited Tamworth around a month back (VFR) and the controllers where nothing but helpful. I entered the CTR in poor vis and received terrific assistance both in the air and on the ground after landing.
Incidentally, on departure I did not make a call and they never seemed bothered by it.

[Chief galah]

To me this is the conflict between the old and the new.

What is the purpose of a departure report?

In the days when things were simpler, the departure report was ostensibly to establish a separation standard. It's a throw back from the two airline agreement where most of our non-radar departure standards evolved.

It was the norm for non-radar CTRs. These standards were applicable to other users as well but there was a lot less of them then.

We have not moved forward in this respect since then. The reasons for reports are far less valid. There is little to be gained from departure reports for VFR because separation need not be applied.

Even for single IFR movements, the report is for internal ATC coordination only.

So, as in many aspects of our modern yen for change, many things stay the same.

[Jabawocky]

Here are a few interesting points.

CTR at TW is to 3500 so if below this, no report required.

If you were given a clearance not above 4000 you would possibly be in CTA then you must give a report.

Depends on what your clearance actually was.

Its a stupid situation either way.

On the YBSU case, it seems CTR is up to A045........so no report required! What a cockup ...... more standards have to be better! :ugh:

So what exactly happened Dick?


Ohh and the TWR has no reliable surveillance below 5500' ;)

[pill]

Special treatment maybe Dick, long memories. I havn't flown a VH rego for 15 years and still associate your name with tipping the system on it's ear. Maybe for better, maybe for worse. LHR opens ones eyes to what can be done.

[Dangly Bits]

Jabawocky,

Just found that the SU CTA starts at 1500' in the Designated Airspace Handbook! How many fly with one of those in the cockpit?

Why are the CTR altitudes all different by the way? I can understand ex-GAAP's but why at somewhere like Rockhampton would it be as low as 1'000?

DB

[Jabawocky]

Dangly

My Jepps show YBSU at CTA45 ...note however unlike some other places like Launie where it shows the CTR clearly, there is no CTR depicted for YBSU.....(I am tired and Bundy Red is helping!)

That being said why is TW at 3500'....when its meant to be CTR to 1500AGL that should mean 3000' at TW so there is no standard standard.:rolleyes:

Problem here is this, ATC want a departure report as you are out of sight and close to steps if you are cleared out at higher levels, or maybe even departing when in the CTA not CTR, but with varying standards pilots will be unsure. Just like the YMAV setup compared to over in the west. :ugh:

So while I think who really needs departure reports....it should be all or nothing. Saves everyone the confussion.

It may just be that the ATC has stuffed up here, but it may also be Dick was given a clearance that allowed him a lot of lattitude, and by default that meant CTA as well therefore a report required. Even if Dick only intended on buzzing out at A025.

The good old US NAS and FAA D :ok::}:D

[Chief galah]

Is there anywhere in the all powerful US NAS procedures that a departure report is required?

[rmcdonal]

That being said why is TW at 3500'....when its meant to be CTR to 1500AGL that should mean 3000' at TW so there is no standard standard.


Jaba I would suggest it has something to do with making the controllers lives easier with the VFR departure lanes out of Tamworth into the training area. If the level was lower then a departure would be required from each of the CT4s heading out for a sorti. That extra 500ft would give them a buffer.

[rattly_spats]

Magnificent cavok day – on departure the Air Traffic Controller wanted to know why I did not give a departure report. Being VFR I told him I understood it was the rules. He promptly told me that the Enroute Supplement makes it clear that departure reports are required for VFR in certain circumstances.

I had a very similar experience at YMAY back in mid-June. I asked the controller (it was quiet day) and he explained:

No departure call required when departing the zone (CTR) directly into class G -- in other words, below 2000ft.
Departure call is required when departing the zone into the overlying class-D CTA, even though I was only in it for a few miles before popping out into class-G and departing to the west at 2500.I apologised, and I think I probably wasn't the first to have failed to understood this subtlety. I subsequently wrote to the CASA E-Learning people to suggest they update their teaching material to make it clearer -- but I don't think they have yet.

[uncle8]

The ATCs watch you take off and set course, why can't they make up a departure time, the same as they, most likely, do if you will be exiting into G?

[peuce]

A couple of reasons I guess, including.


They may be busy and not see you depart overhead
You may not be in radar coverage, so your Search And Rescue watch is based on your flight planned estimate for the next reporting point. That estimate is worked out by adding YOUR departure time to YOUR estimated time interval. Everyone's working off the same estimate then.( you don't want them chasing you for a position report because they had a different dep time than you)

[VH-XXX]

I had a very similar experience at YMAY back in mid-June.


Albury is in a class of it's own. I recently tracked over Albury in CTA. They asked if I had a VOR. I said "I have VOR but haven't used it before as I have never flown this aircraft before, thus would prefer GPS" They responded that I HAD to choose my outbound VOR radial to obtain a clearance and that I HAD to use the VOR. I stated again that I was fitted with GPS, to which they replied that I wasn't allowed to use it.

WTF???? @#%$@$

[Jabawocky]

That's not unique to Albury.

ASA have been waiting on CASA to approve the use of GPS for navigation such as that. But don't hold your breath :ugh:.

J:ok:

[Dick Smith]

What altitude were you flying at? Were you VFR?

This may start to expose some of the lies we are told.

[VH-XXX]

If that's directed at me, 6,500ft VFR in an IFR aircraft.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Well, well,.......

Something like
"......some of the lies we are told." =

'Your Safety will be enhanced and it will cost you less'...... :=:=:yuk::yuk::oh:

Cheers

(dash, followed by 23 dits suitably spaced, dash.!!!)

[Jabawocky]

So Dick, what was the story with the clearance you were given out of TW, do you recall if it was a "Not Above A###"?

Just curious to get that one answered before we get onto the XXX incident.:ok:

[QSK?]

VH-XXX:Albury is in a class of it's own. I recently tracked over Albury in CTA. They asked if I had a VOR. I said "I have VOR but haven't used it before as I have never flown this aircraft before, thus would prefer GPS" They responded that I HAD to choose my outbound VOR radial to obtain a clearance and that I HAD to use the VOR. I stated again that I was fitted with GPS, to which they replied that I wasn't allowed to use it. andIf that's directed at me, 6,500ft VFR in an IFR aircraftThat's because GPS can only be used by VFR flights as a supplementary aid to visual navigation and not as the sole source of navigation, so AY tower is technically correct.

AIP indicates that when flying VFR, a pilot has the choice of either navigating by visual reference to the surface or through having access to a full time licensed flight navigator, an approved self contained navigation system or a ground based radio navigation system. GPS is not considered to be an approved self-contained navigation system as it relies on externally generated radio signals to determine the position of the aircraft.

So the only options available to you were to accept a geographic tracking clearance (cloud permitting) from the controller or a clearance based on a radio navigation aid (if you are rated to use the aid)

Not realistic or practical in today's navigation environment but, unfortunately, them's the rules!

[Dick Smith]

VH XXX Did you get the clearance you requested?

[peuce]

Whoo up there boy ... we haven't got the answer from you yet, Dick.

You wanted an answer to why you were quizzed at Tamworth ...we are trying to help.

What was your cleared level at Tamworth? We all need to know, so it's cleared up.

You can start another thread with the VH-XXX issue if you want ....

[VH-XXX]

Sounds feasible QSK....

(if you are rated to use the aid)

No I wasn't certified to use the aid.... (irrelevant in the end as they would never know anyway)

In the end I should have never said that I had one and they would have not been in a position to "force" me to use it. Therefore with no GPS, I would have just had to depart on a heading.




and Dick, yes, I got the clearance I was after once I gave them the required outbound radial that I had to stick to.

The joys of not having radar I guess (assumption of mine).


What was annoying was that they did not permit me to use an airport as the destination, eg. Depart CBR, Overfly Albury to YMEL - I had to transit on a VOR radial.

[Jabawocky]

Thats because you are to track from aid to aid. For example when you program your GNS430 to fly from say YBUD to YHBA you enter your plan as follows;

YBUD > BUD (being the NDB) >HBA (being the NDB)>YHBA This puts you on the track. Of course if its a place with no aid....you just use the Aerodrome reference point.

So Dick....what is the answer to your clearance?

[youidiots]

XXX, You transited Albury class C airspace, the controller by law has to be able to prove he/she has a separation standard with any IFR aircraft that is in C airspace as well. When using VFR tracks the separation standards are greater than when tracking via VOR radials or NDB bearings.

The controller was probably trying to separate using radials to reduce the separation standard between yourself and whoever you were conflicting with and minimize inconvenience to both aircraft.

Just interested to know...were you given an amended clearance? and if so, how different was it from your planned track?

[VH-XXX]

It was amended yes, from YMEL to YTYA when overhead YMAY.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Albury is in a class of it's own. I recently tracked over Albury in CTA. They asked if I had a VOR. I said "I have VOR but haven't used it before as I have never flown this aircraft before, thus would prefer GPS" They responded that I HAD to choose my outbound VOR radial to obtain a clearance and that I HAD to use the VOR. I stated again that I was fitted with GPS, to which they replied that I wasn't allowed to use it.

WTF???? @#%$@$


Dear dear, girls! You are making things way too complicated.

Put a flightplan into the GPS from the VOR at your departure aerodrome to your destination, read off the required track - and tell that guy in the tower that is your outbound radial - "reference the omni"!

T'ant no way they can tell that you are using the GPS not the VOR.

Dr :8

[peuce]

Dick might be just out having a latte ... in which case I'll happily amend this statement when he returns and responds ...

... but, I think he's just been caught out by a clearance that takes him through CTA (as opposed to just CTR) ... ergo ... DEP call required.:O

... a lesson for us all .... them charts can be tricky!

[Angle of Attack]

Put a flightplan into the GPS from the VOR at your departure aerodrome to your destination, read off the required track - and tell that guy in the tower that is your outbound radial - "reference the omni"!

T'ant no way they can tell that you are using the GPS not the VOR.


Yes practically correct, but technically illegal. I have been caught out by these damn GPS systems and always still monitor primary navaids, it is still a requirement in many jets as well.

[Chief galah]

At this point, no-one has explained the purpose of a departure report from a VFR flight.

Just what does it achieve apart from some vague outdated means for ATC to complete the paperwork.

[VH-XXX]

Why?

It's a carry over from not having radar. (no idea if they have it or not these days at these locations)

Means that some ATC guy can sit in a room anywhere in the country plotting out aircraft and their respective tracks on his A3 map with monopoly game pieces for aircraft. When you give your departure call he moves your piece off the board.

http://www.moderngent.com/media/monopoly500x300.jpg

[peuce]

Was this not clear enough?




They may be busy and not see you depart overhead
You may not be in radar coverage, so your Search And Rescue watch is based on your flight planned estimate for the next reporting point. That estimate is worked out by adding YOUR departure time to YOUR estimated time interval. Everyone's working off the same estimate then.( you don't want them chasing you for a position report because they had a different dep time than you)

[Pera]

T'ant no way they can tell that you are using the GPS not the VOR.

And they don't care.

Yes practically correct, but technically illegal.

I think the practically covers it. If a VFR aircraft is told to track via a VOR and can comply (however they do it) then it's fine by me.

[Chief galah]

VFR flights are either NOSAR or SARTIME.
There is no SARWATCH for next reporting point.
The only reason for the next report would be leaving C or D for G or E.
There should always be an airborne time recorded.
Departure may not be from overhead, but some position on track within 5 miles.

[peuce]

I don't want to be picky, however, if a VFR is in procedural C (or D) and doesn't answer, report or arrive at the next point ... is he not chased? If you don't hear from him, do you just assume 'he's gone somewhere else' ?

[willadvise]

VH-XXX

The correct response to the question "do you have a VOR" when you are equipped but not certified is "Negative" When we ask if you have a particular navaid it is implied that you are certified to use it.

The departure report is required for separation. The controller will use the information to caculate procedural separation requirements. Eg Est time of passing and lateral separation entry and exit times. You may only be in C for a short while but the controller may have to use this infomation to separate other inbound or outbound aircraft.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Not wanting to open a can of worms but I was wondering about VH-XXX's statements about having a VOR but not knowing how to use it. As willadvise says - either you have one and are rated to use it or you tell ATC you don't. Likewise, people who tick S on the FPL are saying that they have ratings to use VOR & NDB - for navigation if VFR and for approaches for IFR.

Someone else mentioned that VFR can't use VOR - they can, if certified in their logbook as having been trained and competent to use them (or NDB) - and it's compulsary for NVFR.

My can of worms though is doing GPS training so as to be allowed to use it to navigate (VFR or IFR) requires you to input GPSRNAV under NAV on the FPL - which then implies that you can use it for GPSRNAV approaches. Been caught out on that before....

UTR

[89 steps to heaven]

At this point, no-one has explained the purpose of a departure report from a VFR flight.

Just what does it achieve apart from some vague outdated means for ATC to complete the paperwork.

Quite a few times, I have had a VFR provide departure details, cleared them out as requested, but when they gave their departure report, the tracking was completely different. Some times they had changed their mind airbourne or they had made a mistake. In any case, the traffic information I was providing to them and other aircraft would have been misleading.

The departure report allowed me to provide correct traffic info.

In other words, it can be part of the safety net that prevents an incident. How many safety nets should we remove? :confused:

[Jabawocky]

Jolly good point.........and without SSR or ADSB.....who would know!:ok:

We are all here to cover each others backside as I see it.

[Dick Smith]

Peuce

I haven’t been answering you because I’m just sitting in sheer dismay. I have worked for over a decade to bring in the simpler US Class D procedures. User friendly, don’t frighten VFR pilots away from non-radar towers.

A departure report for a Class D is not required in the USA and other leading aviation countries for both IFR and VFR. Surely the controller can see you depart? He or she has given you a clearance and you are heading off in that direction.

I once flew into Tamworth with a friend and the person said, “I wouldn’t be game to come here by myself” even though the person had a private licence with reasonable experience. The reason was the Tamworth controller made the whole process extraordinarily complicated for no real reason – clearance limits here and there, asking for clearance readbacks, all for simple VFR traffic.

Peuce, you just don’t get it. You don’t realise that you frighten people away from flying. I wish we could get a few professional American air traffic controllers here to run our D towers. They would make it so fantastic – we would increase the number of people flying immediately.

Yes, I mean that. The amateurish rubbish which goes on here is embarrassing. When I flew into Tamworth it was almost dead, and when I mentioned to the controller how little traffic there was, he said that he had seven flight strips in front of him. In the next ten minutes he made the system so complicated – all VFR – it was almost unbelievable.

There is no need for a VFR departure report whether I am flying at 10 feet or going into space. If other countries don’t need it, why do we?

Yes, amateurish amateurs running our air traffic control system. One day we will get some professionals from overseas to show our people how to do it.

Hopefully this will happen soon.

[peuce]

Dick,

Dismayed you may be ... but that doesn't change reality!

If you re-read some of the posts above, you will see a number of valid reasons why a Departure call is required ... in some circumstances ... in Australia.


Fact: The Controller may not see your departure. As you said, the Controller had 7 strips in front of him, on a quiet day. Imagine the workload on a busy day. I don't think it's possible to accurately observe every departure, always. I welcome opinions from current Controllers.
Fact: Without surveillance, procedural seperation is required. To provide safe procedural seperation, accurate times are required.
Fact: Pilots occassionally stuff up ... sometimes they think they are going somewhere, the Controller thinks they're going somewhere else. It's a back up.
Fact: The rule books say you have to. Get it changed if you are that concerned.
Fact: Most VFR pilots are not 'scared 'to go to Tamworth ... other than those with a fear of country music!
Fact: The U.S. have different air traffic management, coordination and surveillance environments


Geez, in the ole days, everyone gave a departure call, all the time ... and no one seemed to die from it.

If it so painful, depart straight into G.

[Atlas Shrugged]

I have worked for over a decade to bring in the simpler US Class D procedures.

Yeah, now look what you've done :ok::D:D:D:D:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::mad:

[Pera]

clearance limits here and there, asking for clearance readbacks

What an imposition!

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Before.....

'And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the 'airways'.

And God said, Let there be 'E', and 'G' and... 'A & B & C' ......and there was
'E' & 'G' and 'A' & 'C'.

And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light VFR from the darkness IFR.

And God called the light 'E' and 'G' and the darkness He called 'A' and 'C'.

And God said, Behold.....

" I have worked for over a decade to bring in the simpler US Class D procedures"

And the Angels said -

Now look at wot you've gone and done......We'll just never get this mess sorted out again!!"

:{:{ :}

[Jabawocky]

ahhhh Griffo......you missed your calling in life! :ok:

:D:D:D

[peuce]

Griffo .... I bet you could even make Area 22 forecast sound inspiring :E

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Yeah.....all of those SY VOLMET broadcasts.....ah!!... the 'days before the firmament'.....

:p:p

[Dick Smith]

Coral

What I don’t understand is that groups like Civil Air don’t really get with this and do everything they can to encourage simplicity and lack of complication. You would think that would be better for controllers, and of course it would encourage more people to fly which means more money for aviation and – dare I say it – more money for controllers.

I know there is an old school of controllers who never wanted to link their job with actual people flying. However, they are closely interlinked.

By the way, I don’t quite understand re. the RAAF. I did not know they had any Class D airspace to apply Class D rules to – which airports are you referring to?

Thanks for the comments re. the population program. It’s amazing we don’t have a plan.

But wouldn’t it be great if we could get more people flying in this country? I’m delighted to see that the Coalition has a policy to make Australia a world-leader in flying training. It’s about time! We could get many tens of millions of dollars of export income by becoming the world leader. There would be lots more traffic at places like Tamworth, and no doubt that would facilitate modern, simple procedures.

[Dick Smith]

Peuce! Unbelievable!

How can tower controllers in the rest of the world operate without departure reports?

Set in concrete your mind is!

[OZBUSDRIVER]

I have a problem....

Dick, you said-
He promptly told me that the Enroute Supplement makes it clear that departure reports are required for VFR in certain circumstances.


I have read and re-read said ERSA entries for YSTW...Could you PLEASE tell me where it says a departure report is required.

Section f in Para4 says that departure calls using Gate South and West are not required...no where else in ERSA does it say Departure Call is required

AIP, on the other hand says-Departure reports...IFR only....

GAAP change over says....VFR departure call, not required.
VFR departure into controlled airspace, not required because take off clearance and departure clearance incorporates it

Sooooo, either the controller has got this wrong or Mr Smith has left out pertinent information. Did you VFR depart on an IFR plan, Mr Smith?

[judge.oversteer]

I'm with you Dick.

What is wrong with all you morons? Why lamblast a guy who at the end of the day is trying to make your GA lives a little easier?

I have not lived in Australia for over 30 years, however I travel back there usually a couple of times a year (associated with aviation I might add). Each time I do I find it unbelievable the amount of burocracy and pure unadulterated bulls**t that goes on there. For such a laid back easy place to be, with about 1% of the air traffic in the US, why have such archaic rules. It is sad, just sad to say the least.

Get into the real world guys.

Rant over.

JO.

[Capn Bloggs]

Dick,
You would think that would be better for controllers, and of course it would encourage more people to fly which means more money for aviation and – dare I say it – more money for controllers.

I doubt it. If there were more aircraft, there'd be more ocntrollers. They wouldn't get a pay rise. Did you ever give your staff a pay rise as the company grew?

Why does my stomach churn every time I read you talking about "simple procedures"?

[peuce]

OZBUSDRIVER,

I can't put my hands on it now, but I'm sure we found, in the docs, that a VFR must make a departure call, departing a Class D Zone, when entering other than Class G. I'll try and find it again.

J.O.

Having been away for 30 years has protected you from most of the 'detail'. You probably only see the big headlines. The devil is in the detail.

We don't attack Dick. We just don't always agree with him. That's our right. It's very difficult to side with him when he says things like:

What I don’t understand is that groups like Civil Air don’t really get with this and do everything they can to encourage simplicity and lack of complication

Before this all started, you were either IN or you were OUT. You can't get much simpler than that.

Dick,

How can tower controllers in the rest of the world operate without departure reports? Set in concrete your mind is!

More like quick sand Dick. Throw me a lifeline!
If you, or anyone else for that matter, can show me how the issues I described above can be overcome without requiring departure reports ... then I'm with you.

By the way, the answer isn't ... "They do it in America". I want to know how we do it ... in our particular environment.

P.S. OZBUSDRIVER might be right and all this discussion is wasted anyway.

Later On:

I found this in the CASA Class D Airspace Booklet:

As a VFR flight, you do not need to make a departure call when
departing the control zone directly into Class G airspace.

As usual, CASA is confusing by omission ... what is required when a VFR departs into other than Class G ?

I'll keep looking.

[Dick Smith]

Oz, I reckon in this case the controller got it wrong. He did state something about not being required to give a departure call if going out via one of the gates- otherwise he reckoned a departure call was required for VFR.

Wouldn't you think the Tamworth ATC manager would come on under his or her own name and explain the correct procedure!

They are probably stopped by the AsA bosses from doing this!

There never should be secrecy in relation to safety issues I reckon.

[peuce]

Well, well ... from the Visual Flight Guide:

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e115/sosvideo/VFG.jpg

Looks like this also confirms that a Departure Report is required ... unless going straight to G.

I'm sure the Controller will graciously accept your apologies, Dick.

[Starts with P]

This whole thread is another example of Dick Smith becoming so frustrated at the rules, he switches from slagging Airservices, to the actual controllers, back to Airservices again.

The controller appears to have done nothing wrong, and so you jump up and down about the rules that exist. Mr Smith continually argues with frontline controllers about the application of the rules.

The simple fact is that a departure report (according to the rules) was required and not given, and the controller chased it up (just like all those silly "read backs").

Thems the rules. Fly by them.

As for the Tamworth ATC manager coming onto a rumour network to explain the rules to you Dick? That is ridiculous! I'm sure you can find the number and give him/her a ring if you REALLY want to find the answers.

[Jabawocky]

Just to go back a few pages.........if the departure is from the CTR into G at low level, remember CTR is typically SFC to 1500AGL then no report. If you climb in the D zone into CTA...say 2500AGL.....Report is required.

Now if Dick was cleared at whatever was only 1000AGL, into G, then NO REPORT.

If the clearance was track to woop woop not above XXXX which happens to be 2500AGL and is in CTA.....even if he stayed at 500AGL the clearance was up to 2500AGL so the report is required.

So far Mr Smith has failed to tell us what exactly the ATC in the tower actually said....the devil is in the detail.

Ohhh and one more thing, from first hand experience and seeing it for real at YMLT the dawg is your best friend.....he is the king of "track via XXX not above YYY and NO DEPARTURE REPORT REQ'D " ......and you thought he was a hard case!:=

J:ok:

[Dick Smith]

I was cleared to depart directly from class D into class G.

I think I requested to depart at not above 1000 agl but cannot remember exactly.

What lunatic came up with a system that links VFR class D departure reports with the altitude?

The CASA Office Of Airspace Regulation made sure they asked no advice from people with expertise in NAS class D when introducing these new procedures

So they have got them wrong and it is a complete stuff up!

It will be fixed second or third time around.

[Jabawocky]

Well if that is what you requested you most likely got it, and as best I can see you were correct. Of course I could be wrong, and often are!

As for the lunatic who came up with that idea.....no idea at all. If you ask me its too confusing. I can only assume its the old GAAP being blended with old D.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Lotsa lunatics in da world............

Thankfully - not ALL of then in aviation........although sometimes......:{

'E' over 'D' comes to mind...............VFR and altitudes....or maybe that shud read attitudes - mixing it with IFR....and being UNNANNOUNCED!!!:ugh::ugh:

[peuce]

Dick,

Just because you don't understand it, doesn't make it 'lunacy'.

Of course communication and coordination requirements are linked to altitude ... that's what deems you to be either in or out of a particular volume of airspace ... when it's divided horizontally ... like our upside down wedding cake system.

And, in turn, which airspace volume you are in dictates what communications, separation and coordination requirements exist.

Surely you can see that ?

If you're not happy with the Tamworth setup, I'm sure that OAR would be happy to consider your alternate proposal.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Well, well, well. Thanks Peuce. Tell you what? This would make the best gotcha question in air leg exam!

[Stationair8]

Airspace used to be so simple, many years ago you were either OCTA or CTA.

[max1]

Civilair is the ATCs Association.
ASA do not like Civilair. I would say that CASA do not like Civilair.
Civilair let both parties know what they think of impending rule changes as it affects ATCs ability to SAFELY deliver the 'service'
ASA have the attitude that anything Civilair says is bad for ASA.
Civilair do not make the rules. ASA do not make the rules.
The people in Civilair who have ATC experience are professional volunteers.
They try to ensure that, when new procedures are brought in, Civilair members are not left hanging in the breeze.
Dick, how much money and resources do you think Civilair has? A team of QCs and a fully fledged PR department ready to go?
Not exactly, we have hard working people in our office, but we in way no way have a budget that will allow us to take on the government, ASA (there goes the budget), CASA and vested interst groups.
ASA will have a go at Civilair everytime just to make us spend money on representation. ASA have lots of money, it's called Navcharges.
Civilair is NOT an enemy of the Aviation community. Do not expect Civilair to be THE leader for reform of Aviation in Australia, that comes from the politicians.
We have a landmass almost the size of the continental US. We do not have the infrastructure, nor the controller numbers. I would love to drive on a 6 line highway from Cairns to Melbourne/ Adelaide. Does this make us thirdworld?

[2nd choice]

What a departure report gives to the controller without radar, is a track, level on climb to, and an estimate.
You might be surprised to hear how many aircraft when given climb to an intermediate level, will give a departure report on climb to their planned level, some give the wrong track, some make a 10 min error in the departure time and estimate.
A departure report gives a controller another chance to check that the correct level has been given to the pilot (and coordinated with the next controller if necessary) The outbound track is what the non-radar controller uses to ensure procedural separation. Estimates are used to work out whether an aircraft is clear of conflict or not.
I dont see what the problem is. Surely all pilots still look at the time and can remember where they are going and how high they are climbing to?
It takes all of 20 seconds to say it, and I think it is good airmanship to know what time you departed and the track to your destination.

[Dick N. Cider]

What Max1 and 2nd Choice said.

[Jack Ranga]

Whenever I have not understood a procedure or am interested in the nuts & bolts of why, I've dug out a phone number from the ersa and rung the controller and asked why. I've found most controllers love a chat!

Makes for a better relationship than slagging a controller for something you don't understand. They remember your callsign and know you are making the effort :ok:

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

'Ere Ya Go Dick........

From the 'orses mouth........Latest CASA Newsletter.....25/8/2010

"Tamworth airspace works well
The classification and operation of airspace at Tamworth aerodrome has been given a tick of approval. CASA’s Office of Airspace Regulation commissioned a study into the levels of risk for operations at Tamworth and any deficiencies that may have existed. The study included interviews with local operators, aerodrome users and other stakeholders, questionnaires and an analysis of air traffic and accident and incident data. Tamworth has aerodrome and approach control services provided by Airservices Australia and when this is operational the controlled airspace is Class D up to 4500 feet. Class C operates from 4500 feet to 8500 feet. The study found Class D procedures appropriate to the Tamworth airspace and the dimensions of the controlled airspace to be adequate. Accident and incident data shows failures to observe air traffic control instructions and violations of controlled airspace to be the most common problems. ; These are mainly caused by human error such as misinterpreting air traffic control instructions. The report recommends CASA continues to conduct education to make sure all pilots understand procedures and develops appropriate training materials.

Read the Tamworth aeronautical study.

See. The study found the Class D procs and the controlled airspace to be 'adequate'.
And that is with (shudder) vertical separation between airspaces............
Which may or may not require DEP reports....

Cheers

[Super Cecil]

These days I make a point of flying around Tamworth zone instead of through it. They can never give you a clearance tracking through the zone unless you track directly over the tower, traffic or not.
If I have to divert I might as well just divert around it. A few years ago I was tracking inbound to Tamworth, also inbound was a Lear 45 from Moroochy and a King Air. We were all for arrival within a few minutes, we were given clearences and controlled until we were within about 8 miles from the airfield and knock off time came. Ole mate said sort yourselves out and shut down. Amazing that it was unsafe before the hour of work finishing then all OK to make our own arrangements.
I was working out of Alice Springs when the changes came through in June. The tower man keep asking for departure reports (VFR) after the date of the changes. I let it go for a while then after about four or five days I asked why they were still asked for when they weren't required for VFR departures. He replied it's at his descretion if they were required or not. He never did ask again.

[sdielectrical]

I need a little help from some more experienced pilots. I have read the whole thread and hope someone can help.....

I have a VFR training flight to Tamworth from YSBK next week. I will be departing Tamworth to the north to Manilla ALA into class D CTA.

AIP says I need to give a departure report in "summary of reports" table ENR 1.1 - 45.

Its doesn't say what is required in the report anywhere. ENR 1.1 - 15 says for an IFR departure the report is to include
a. departure time
b. tracking information
c. last assigned level
d. estimate for first en route reporting point

My questions are.

1) What should be in my departure report?
2) Where is my first en route reporting point?
3) When do I give the report? is it when I leave the CTR into the CTA? or soon after takeoff?

Thanks :-)

[Horatio Leafblower]

If I was unsure, I would ask the instructor who is sapping me $90/hour. The advice you ge here is worth what you have paid for it! :suspect: