A Different Concorde Question

[Biggles78]

Watched The Rise and Fall of Concorde on TV last night and was surprised by the seemingly violent way the thrust levers were operated. This appeared to be actual footage of the operation so my question is.
Were the thrust levers actually slammed from idle to full power or were they operated in a normal smooth action?

[test7875]

Personally I thought that was "acted", I assumed the actors where just sitting in the concorde "exibits" roleplaying, hence no tension on the throttles?

[F/O]

That's how they did it. The sequence of the burners to get the afterburner going was automatic. No mocking around. Get the throttles forward.

[breadrollaviation]

The Concorde had throttles that were not mechanically linked, but electrically operated. This from the site concordesst.com:

The Aircraft has an electrically controlled throttle system that is used to control the power delivered from the engines. Moving the throttle leavers asks the computer to apply the power to the engines in a correct and controlled manner. Through throttle master controls on the overhead panel, each engine can be either connected to the throttle lever (main) to an alternate controller or not controlled at all.

[M2dude]

Agreed, the electronic control system carefully controlled the acceleration rate of the engines, and the idea was to get take-off thrust as quickly as possible. I agree that at first sight it may look dramatic or even violent, but this was pefectly normal routine. (3, 2, 1, NOW!!....CLICK).
The 'off' position was of course NEVER used with the engine running; you had no control of the engine at all in this case, and the fuel and nozzle actuators were locked by a brake.
:)

[Biggles78]

Many thanks for the replies though the action really does look 'weird'.

[EW73]

I too watched that same show...

I agree that the afterburner operation governed the manner in which the throttles were operated.

My question is why the countdown, why the "3,...2,...1...Clang" with the throttles?

What were they timing down?

Great show, very impressive indeed.

EW73

[M2dude]

I guess that the 'countdown' was just a way of focusing the 3 crew members attention for the commencement of a fairly intense few minutes, that required extreme concentration and discipline. (I suppose in hindsight, the event must seem a little melodramatic, for us it was the only way to do it). :)
In actual fact the 'spool up' thing had not so much to do with afterburner operation, more to do with maximising the runway length available by obtaining as much power from the whole engine in as short a period of time as possible. (Being a pure jet, the handling of the engine did not need to be anywhere as delicate as for a fan engine. However, the N1 & N2 acceleration rates were carefully controlled by the control system, in order to stay within their respective surge margins).
The afterburner in actual fact, itself only contributed about a 17% increase in take-off thrust, and was triggered automatically at 81% N1. (Engine #4 was initially a little 'dimmer' on the take- off roll than the other 3 engines, due to it's N1 being limited to 88% below 60 KTS. This limitation was due to low speed airflow stability issues).
There are a few good Concorde shows doing the rounds at the moment, I've been extremely priviliged to have been involved in one or two. I'm Really glad that you enjoyed the show guys. :)

Dude :O

[breadrollaviation]

The 3-2-1-Go countdown was so that they knew when to start the timer, as they needed to adhere to certain procedures on departure. Out of London they would cut the AB to reduce the noise level at a certain time from power on.

A very good DVD set to view all of this and more is the ITVV Concorde Doco. 5 Hours worth of Concorde action!

[Capn Bloggs]

Just watched a show (dunno which one); what a fantastic machine! http://www.smilies.our-local.co.uk/index_files/worship.gif

[M2dude]

Breadrollaviation
You are of course quite correct here, at the NOW part of the countdown, you started the noise abatement timer. Apologies for me missing the obvious :ugh:
(As a matter of interest, the 'classic' noise abatement manoevr was not so much out of LHR, but out of JFK, RWY 31L. This was really an awsome piece of flying; if you have the chance to see this one on TV, you'll see what I mean :)).
Capn Bloggs
So glad you enjoyed the show. I personally think that all aircraft are amazing in their own individual way, but Concorde really WAS something else.

Dude :O

[breadrollaviation]

M2Dude - I have only seen it in the ITVV film but it is indeed great flying. It is indeed a great shame that the Concorde was retired a few years ago.

I only ever saw her once, an AF example at YSSY. The thing I remember most about it was the noise, and that most of the airport stopped to watch her depart!

[R2112]

(As a matter of interest, the 'classic' noise abatement manoevr was not so much out of LHR, but out of JFK, RWY 31L. This was really an awsome piece of flying; if you have the chance to see this one on TV, you'll see what I mean
Haven't had a chance to see it, what did it involve!?

[ChristiaanJ]

Haven't had a chance to see it, what did it involve!?In brief, it involved a very impressive left-hand bank over Jamaica Bay almost as soon as the wheels were up. This allowed to avoid most of the noise-sensitive areas, and incidentally, most of the noise monitors!

CJ

[M2dude]

It was a testament to the manoeuvrability of the aircraft and it's power/weight ratio, but still required PRECISE co-ordination between the three crew members. The only beings that hated it of course were the fish in Jamaica bay; it was amazing, taking off in one of the world's noisiest commercial aircraft and yet causing really minimal noise nuisance to the populated areas around JFK.

Dude :O

[bingofuel]

If I recall correctly, after Concorde had demonstrated the noise abatement left hand turn for the local noise protestors, their next plea was ' why can all the other airliners not do that?'
It turned out only Concorde could mange it safely!

Instant converts to Concorde!

[Pugilistic Animus]

Descansese En Paz

:{:{:{

[Nick Thomas]

The ITVV concorde shows a noise abatment takeoff on 31L at JFK. On that occasion not all of 31L was available so the turn had to be made at 100ft agl. A very impressive sight,
Nick

[ChristiaanJ]

M2dude, bingofuel,

There's a very good and detailed write-up about that occasion in "Flying Concorde" by Brian Calvert (p.184-185 in my copy).V1 - rotate - gear up - 100 ft - roll 25 degrees of bank on - and there it is.

And yes, it was one more illustration of the handling qualities of the aircraft... Many of the pilots liked to hand-fly it on occasions where that wasn't really necessary.
And it could be barrel-rolled just dandy.....

CJ

PS
Nick,
100ft AGL was standard for that procedure.

[Bellerophon]

R2112

I wonder if a piece I wrote some while ago may possibly be of interest?

JFK, 31L, Kennedy 9 SID, Canarsie transition, Concorde climb

Speedbird 2, cleared take-off 31L.

Call 3-2-1 Now, start your stopwatch, pre-set to countdown from 58 seconds, and push the throttles fully forward until they hit the stops. Four RR Olympus engines spool up and four reheats kick in, together producing 156,000 lbs of thrust, but at a total fuel flow of 83,000 kgs per hour. A touch of left rudder initially to keep straight, as the #4 engine limiter is restricting that engine to 88% until 60 kts, when it will release it to full power.

The F/O calls Airspeed building, V1, and then, at 195 kts, Rotate. Gently rotate the aircraft, and lift-off occurs at around 10° and 215 kts, but keep rotating to 13.5° and then hold that attitude, and let the aircraft accelerate.

Positive Climb is called, you cross-check and ask for the Gear Up.

Passing 50 ft RA, the F/O, having first checked the aircraft attitude, airspeed and rate of climb, calls Turn. Slowly roll on 25° left bank to turn out over Jamaica bay, and as the speed accelerates through 240 kts, pitch up to 19° to maintain 250 kts and keep the left turn going to pass East of CRI. 54 seconds after the start of the take off roll, the F/O starts the noise abatement countdown with 3-2-1 Noise. At the call of Noise the E/O simultaneously cancels the re-heats and rapidly throttles back to noise abatement power, whilst you quickly pitch down again to 12° to maintain 250 kts. It is now a minute from the start of roll and already 1,000 kgs of fuel have been used.

Speedbird 2, contact departure, so long.

Turning through heading 235°M, rapidly re-apply full dry power and pitch up to 17° to maintain 250 kts, but also reduce the left bank to 7.5°, until passing 2,500 ft, when bank angle may be increased to 25°.

Approaching the 253° radial JFK, you again hear 3-2-1 Noise, and the E/O throttles back to noise-abatement power for a second time. Pitch down to 12°, and tip-toe quietly over the Rockaway Beaches, aiming to pass right over the car park by the Marine Parkway bridge, to minimise the noise impact on the residents. Keep the left turn going and intercept the 176° radial outbound from CRI, and when 5 miles DME from CRI, slowly re-apply full climb power. Call for the After Take Off Checklist and raise the aircraft attitude to maintain 250 kts, you are in the USA, within 12 miles of the coast and still below 10,000 ft.

Speedbird 2, present position direct to SHIPP, climb FL230, no speed control.

Select INS and use it to track towards SHIPP, check the gear lever is at neutral, and call for the Nose Up, and then the Visor Up. Flight deck noise level drops dramatically as the visor locks up. 12 miles away from the US coast, lower the attitude to 9°, and accelerate to Vmo, currently 400 kts.

Speedbird 2, present position direct to LINND, climb in the block FL550-600, accelerate Mach 2.0.

Call for the Climb Checklist at M0.7, which will get the E/O pumping fuel rearwards to move the CG aft, and then go straight into the Transonic checklist. Maintain 400 kts IAS, and around 24,500 ft, at M0.93, select the re-heats back on, in pairs, and raise the nose by 3° to maintain 400 kts as they kick in. Precise flying is required in the high drag transonic region, and as the Mach meter reaches M1.0, a quick flicker on both the VSI and Altimeter confirms that the shock wave has just passed over the static ports, and the aircraft is now supersonic.

A quick glance at the elapsed time indicator shows that you’ve been hand flying for just over 9 minutes since the start of the take off roll.

Another hard day in the office!


ChristiaanJ and Nick Thomas

I haven't got a copy of Brian Calvert's book, and I can't comment on what the procedure was when he helped introduce the aircraft into passenger service.

However, purely for the sake of accuracy, in the later years of passenger service, the initial turn on the Concorde noise abatement procedure from 31L at JFK (full length or intersection) was not triggered by passing 100 ft, but rather by the following three conditions, all of which had to be met, and confirmed by the F/O, before the turn commenced.


Stable at the (pre-calculated) target rotation attitude.
A Rate of Climb of 500 fpm or more.
At or above 50 ft RA.


Once the F/O was happy, she would call "TURN", and that call was the trigger for the turn.

100 ft may well have been a typical or average height at which the turn did in fact commence, but the limit was 50 ft RA (raised from an earlier limit of 20ft RA !) and the trigger was the TURN call.

The only reference to 100 ft on this departure was in the engine failure procedure (for an engine failure after V1) when the initial turn was delayed until passing 100 ft RA, and limited to 15° bank. Happily, I never had to delay the turn until 100 ft RA!


With very fond memories

Bellerophon

[Biggles78]

M2, do you know (hypothetically of course) if she was ever rolled?

[EW73]

Does that mean she would have been heading for the Rockaway Beach area, must have been noticed going over the top there, quiet little place that it is!

EW73

[ChristiaanJ]

Bellerophon,
Many thanks, that goes straight into the archive!
The quote from Brian Calvert's book is from his description of the very first take-off at JFK (20 Oct. 1977, F-WTSB) with Brian Walpole and Jean Franchi at the controls.
I expect the procedure before "Turn" was pretty well the same, after all it had been practised many times already!

M2, do you know (hypothetically of course) if she was ever rolled?Nothing hypothetical about it, even if history doesn't relate on how many occasions - at least five or six, and probably several more...
Brian Walpole confirmed it in a TV documentary (extract is on YouTube), and André Turcat confirmed it during a lecture at LBG a few years ago, and again during a lecture last year (40th anniversary). He mentioned that the one thing that really annoyed him about it was that he never had an opportunity to do it himself!

CJ

[M2dude]

Biggles78
Yes, she was rolled. One of the Aérospatiale test pilots (not sure who) had the technique down, and barrel-rolled one of the French test aircraft on a few occasions. The former BA GM Concorde, Capt Brian Walpole was able to join him on one of those occasions; the French guy rolled one way and then invited Brian to roll other way. These were perfectly co-ordinated barrel rolls of course; pulling a more or less constant +1G; not bad for an airliner :ok:. Brian would have to confirm who the French pilot was.
EW73
The whole idea of this manoeuvre was to avoid overflying the populated areas at high power. The left turn was really quite extreme (to say the least :}), and the aircraft would pass just to the north of the main Rockaway Beach area, carry out a very brief noise abatement (reduced power, no afterburner with the primary nozzle wide open to reduce the noise signature) manoeuvre, and then accelerate on dry power only, ready to intercept the east-bound track home. (I'd been over at the Rockaways on many occasions, people used to line the beach area to watch the aircraft departing, particularly the afternoon BA004 departure). The only real high power contact with the human species, was a fairly low pass over Cross Bay BVD, but I guess the drivers just got used to it. The guys 'up front 'always made the manoeuvre look simple, but it did require an extreme amount of concentration, professionalism and practice. Concorde actually became one of the best behaved neighbours that JFK ever had, in spite of the initial hype.

Dude :O

[M2dude]

Bellerophon
I have to re-itterate what ChristiaanJ says, thank you from all of us for putting your post out here. As you rightly say, 'what fond memories':ok:

Dude :O

[ChristiaanJ]

M2dude, Biggles78,

Re the barrel roll : the French test pilot was Jean Franchi (now no longer with us).

He already had done it several times over the Pyrnees, until one day he was spotted doing it by a journalist, who had trouble believing what he saw, and phoned Arospatiale before phoning his newspaper.

As it happened, he was put through to André Turcat himself (then Director of Flight Test), who more or less said: "Mais non, Monsieur... A Concorde doing a roll? Not possible.... you must have confused another aircraft with Concorde". The journalist must have believed him, and the story wasn't published.

Afterwards, Turcat told Franchi that, from then on, he'd better do it out of sight of curious onlookers, like over the sea...

Story confirmed by Alain Franchi, his son, and also by Turcat himself during recent lectures.

Jean went on doing his barrel rolls, such as the one with Brian Walpole (who confirms in the documentary it was indeed Jean Franchi during his flight)..

Jean also did all the low-level flying with Sierra Charlie in the "Airport 79 - Concorde" movie. Ghastly film, story-wise, but since it was made before the days of CGI, most of the air-to-air is real, filmed from a specially equipped Lear Jet.

CJ

[Pugilistic Animus]

CJ It's a good thing that D.P Davies did not hear of that roll :\

-at least at the time:}

[flyburg]

Hello,

A question here, many excuses if asked and answered before, however, too lazy to use the search function.

I was told the concorde autopilot had a emergency decsent mode in case of decompression. Is this true?

Thanks

[Bellerophon]

flyburg

...I was told the concorde autopilot had a emergency decsent mode in case of decompression. Is this true?...

No.

Not only is it not true, but the emergency descent procedure was flown manually, and not on autopilot.

Regards

Bellerophon

[flyburg]

Ok, thanks for clearing that up.

Greetings

[M2dude]

flyburg
The Concorde autopilot had more modes than you could shake a stick at, but as Bellerophon quite rightly states, there was none for emergency descent. There were none less than SEVENTEEN autopilot modes (although only sixteen could be directly selected. I remember at entry into service, Flight International did a Concorde 'test drive', and the reviewer stated the only mode missing from the AFCS was 'Home James'. But of course now, in this FMS age, a lot of the modes would be replaced by VNav/LNav. (VOR/LOC mode was even designed to capture a radial at Mach 2, where VOR course set error was modulated as a function of Mach number. What the designer was thinking of here is anyone's guess :}).
As far decompression goes, the only event that I can ever recall is when on it's first pre-delivery test flight out of Fairford, aircraft G-BOAC lost cabin pressure when the nose was lowered to 5 deg's. Some wally at British Aerospace had omitted to fit a fwd pressure panel, and during the high altitude/high speed portion of the test flight, the droop nose seal was able to hold the pressure. (Max diff was 10.7 PSI !!).Fortunately this event happened fairly 'low down', but even so the flight deck was said to be awash with maps, sid/stars, Playboys etc, as the air rushed out through the rudder pedal area. (For some reason this panel was never fitted with a warning microswitch; a duplicate check was carried out after any 'heavy' maintenance, to make sure that the panel was safely fitted).

Dude :O

[galaxy flyer]

M@dude

On pressurization, did a pilot wear a O2 mask when above FL 410? In the FAA, this is a requirement, but I understood, either the CAA rules didn't require this or testing proved that depressurization was so unlikely that the requirement was removed.

GF

[ChristiaanJ]

VOR/LOC mode was even designed to capture a radial at Mach 2, where VOR course set error was modulated as a function of Mach number. What the designer was thinking of here is anyone's guess :}I've wondered about that too....
I was part of flight test support at Fairford ('69 to '74) for the AFCS.
A LOT of time was spent (dare I say wasted) on exploring the full range of speed and capture angles for the VOR mode, and 'tweaking' the control loop parameters. With time constants in the tens of seconds, and each capture test taking minutes, I hate to think how many hours of test flying that took up in the end.
It was only later that I discovered almost nobody ever used VOR mode (not only not on Concorde, but elsewhere too) because of its inherent lack of precision!
Pilots would use TRK/HDG mode, display VOR on the HSI, and then made slight adjustments to the track or heading setting to stay on the desired VOR radial.
LOC of course was a different story.

And a small 'joke' on the same subject... because of all those big time constants in the lateral autopilot computer, it took about eight HOURS to test ONE computer on the ATEC (automatic test). Turned out the automatic test program slavishly followed the manual test specification, with each function tested separately and sequentially. I was given the job of doing something about it.... by doing a lot of the tests in parallel, I managed to bring the testing time down to one hour.

CJ

PS We (Elliott/SFENA) designed the electronics, but the original functional design spec was of course Sud/BAC, not us. And yes, me too, I never quite understood what they were thinking about...

[Bellerophon]

galaxy flyer

...On pressurization, did a pilot wear a O2 mask when above FL 410?...

No.


...the CAA rules didn't require this...

Correct, and neither, so I understand, did the French authorities.

For those British registered aircraft currently certificated to operate above FL410, the CAA still doesn't.


Regards

Bellerophon

[ChristiaanJ]

galaxy flyer,
If you can ever get your hands on a copy of "The Concorde Story" by Christopher Orlebar, there is a nice photo of a Concorde pilot with an oxygen mask (page 111 in my copy).

I quote:
"The flight deck crew are equipped with 'quick don' oxygen masks capable of supplying 100% oxygen under pressure. The donning of oxygen masks and the emergency descent is practised regularly in the flight simulator".

They look quite impressive too, nothing like the little cups on a plastic tube they show you during the safety briefing in a typical airliner....

Sorry, I don't have a flatbed scanner to show the photo (I'm sure Christopher wouldn't mind).

CJ

[M2dude]

These masks were great; they really were 'quick don' masks and could be very easily put on one handed. (But of course the passenger masks WERE pretty much the same litttle cups on a plastic tube, that Christiaan describes.

Dude :O