More GR4 to Afghanistan

[ian176]

BBC News - More RAF jets set for Afghanistan (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10944465)

[barnstormer1968]

Looking at the rather pathetic amount of GR4's we have there, I do wonder just how many Tornado's the general public would think we had out there, bearing in mind I would imagine they have a fairly accurate picture of the number of ground troops.

When there was talk of extra helicopters (or ellicopters at the time), I felt that the government hid behind 'operational security' when only mentioning percentages, rather than actual numbers of aircraft. With this new 'surge' in GR4's it really does sound better if we announce a 25% increase in numbers, rather than a measly 2 more!

Just my two penneth

[UKForcesAfghanistan]

The UK is to send two additional Royal Air Force Tornado jets to Afghanistan, the Defence Secretary has announced on a visit to British forces serving there.

Dr Liam Fox, on his second visit to Afghanistan since being appointed Secretary of State, confirmed that the two Tornado GR4 aircraft have been sent from RAF Lossiemouth in Moray, arriving at Kandahar Airfield tomorrow (Thursday 12 August).

To read the full story click Here (http://ukforcesafghanistan.wordpress.com/2010/08/11/tornados/)

[collbar]

Out of interest, how many extra Tornados and Attack Helicopters would we need to give the British guys on the ground 100% of the air cover required from British aircraft?

[Wrathmonk]

how many extra Tornados and Attack Helicopters would we need

Bit of a 'how long is a piece of string' type of question or 'one more than in the inventory'. How ever many assets you had out there the Land Forces would always want/need more. Not knocking the Land Forces - its always been so and always will be. As soon as you put an upper limit on something it becomes the level from which the government / MOD / PJHQ starting counting backwards from in order to assess / work out the 'operational need / requirement' (or inother words 'take risk').:}

[Trim Stab]

Will extra groundcrew and aircrew also be deployed to increase net capability?

Or are the extra aircraft just required to cover unreliability of the existing aircraft?

[Squirrel 41]

Is it me, or does the fact that we have a SoS announcement trumpeting the deployment of err, um, TWO GR4s underline the current emptiness of the cabinet? :hmm:

No disrespect to the crews (ground & air), but a Ministerial Statement for 2 jets? For 2 Sqns, maybe? But 2 jets?

Be safe out there!

S41

[BEagle]

2 whole aircraft, eh.

Random....:uhoh:

[tarantonight]

TWO??

This is an insult to all concerned. It is what comes form putting a former Doctor in charge of Defence. Along with the rest of them.

TN:ugh:

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

S41,

Couldn't agree more - when two of our most numerous combat type count as an important boost, it's time to worry! Oh well, at least it will be easier to deliver the jets from there to Bangladesh, or whichever other tinpot Asian country buys them for $500, once they are sold off after the SDSR...

[Wrathmonk]

Come on Trim Stab you're starting to get really boring with your 'anti-FJ' digs in every post you make. How about you back your random accusation up with some facts (and not those that your TA mate told you down the pub .... or your bitter and twisted failed FJ co-pilot told you when you were last in your little biz jet).:mad:

S41 - it used to be that any increase in deployed forces, over and above those declared to parliament, required a formal SofS announcement to the House (particularly if it went over the agreed maximum 'head count'). Given the House is on its summer break I guess this was the next best method. Honesty, and following parliamentary protocol, was something lost on the previous administration and hence you didn't see it often. It is, after all, a 20-25% "surge" - if we surged a similar percentage of ground troops there would probably be quite a stir amongst the armchair fraternity.

[Trim Stab]

Come on Trim Stab you're starting to get really boring with your 'anti-FJ' digs in every post you make. How about you back your random accusation up with some facts (and not those that your TA mate told you down the pub .... or your bitter and twisted failed FJ co-pilot told you when you were last in your little biz jet).http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif



Blimey! I see where the "wrath" bit comes from!

It was a genuine question. There was no "random accusation", nor am I anti FJ. I just asked whether the extra aircraft will increase net capability, or whether they are maybe just to cover poor dispatch rates of GR4? If extra crew are being deployed then the former, if no extra crew, then one has to presume the latter.

[Finningley Boy]

According to the C.O. of No. 13 Sqn, they can now provide 24 hour close air support!:)

If I understood him correctly that is?!?!?!:ok:

FB

[RumPunch]

Whats worse is the picture showed 3 Gr4s not 2 :/ We never made the news if we sent 3 Mr2s out to gulf, so 2 Tornados WTF does that acheive to make news on the BBC ?

[Squirrel 41]

WM,

Given the House is on its summer break I guess this was the next best method. Honesty, and following parliamentary protocol, was something lost on the previous administration and hence you didn't see it often.

Happy with this. And (much) happier that this Wasn't played as a "25% Surge" (not that any previous administration would ever have concerned themselves with such things.... :hmm:).

Nonetheless, a written statement would've been fine. And this does smack of desperation. Now, if they were sending another couple of Sqns of GR4 (North West Frontier Strike Wg, anyone?) then by all means a full Ministerial Statement.

S41

[Trim Stab]

form putting a former Doctor in charge of Defence


Nothing wrong with that - we live in a democracy luckily.

[vecvechookattack]

orm putting a former Doctor in charge of Defence
Nothing wrong with that - we live in a democracy luckily.

Correct, but it is interesting that a Doctor - who is supposed to be a caring, compassionate chap is put in charge of the Armed Forces.

[NutLoose]

Why not, the head of the Civil Aviation Authority came from the Chair of the Food Standards Agency, so at least the food may have improved at Gatwick, but she will know bugger all about Aviation.........

No doubt having a Doctor as the Minister of Defence you are now getting enough roughage in your diet, so you will be able to rough it here and rough it there :p

[Lima Juliet]

Just toanswer the question 'why send Tornado?". Believe it or not less than 50% of Joint Tactical Air Requests (JTARs) from Coalition Forces on the ground are being "serviced" recently. So ISAF have asked for more FJs. So all the wokka mates can shut the f@ck up with the "we don't need FJs anymore, what we need is more wokkas!".

And who asked for the FJs? General P - the head cheese as I understand it. He's also asked for E3s to control the CAS stacks instead of the rank amateurs from LFs that do it now.

And that Ladies and Gents is why you need an Air Force - I thank you...

LJ

[Easy Street]

Trim Stab,

Your grasp of English must be good enough to realise that writing statements such as

maybe just to cover poor dispatch rates of GR4

immediately implies to visiting readers (journos perhaps) that the GR4 goes u/s a lot in HERRICK. You are in no position to know whether that is true - so it's not your place to comment on it. Perhaps if you'd said something even subtly different like "maybe just to cover possible poor dispatch rates of GR4" then you wouldn't have provoked the reaction you did! Anyway, it's SOP anti-Tornado banter that dates from the GR1 days; the jet has moved on in serviceability and capability, the banter needs to catch up!

[Roger D'Erassoff]

Genuine question then...why do we insist on sending 2 x FJ to every TIC, rather than one, thus reducing the amount of JTARs that can be met?

[Trim Stab]

"maybe just to cover possible poor dispatch rates of GR4"

Your phrase contains two synonymous adverbs. Mine contained just one, which was sufficient.

[LateArmLive]

To provide cross-cover, another pair of eyes (or pair of pairs of eyes!), enable yo-yo refuelling etc.

More importantly, if a JTAR asks for a pair of GR4s then you can usually expect at least 1 ;)

[barnstormer1968]

"Just toanswer the question 'why send Tornado?". Believe it or not less than 50% of Joint Tactical Air Requests (JTARs) from Coalition Forces on the ground are being "serviced" recently. So ISAF have asked for more FJs. So all the wokka mates can shut the f@ck up with the "we don't need FJs anymore, what we need is more wokkas!".
And who asked for the FJs? General P - the head cheese as I understand it. He's also asked for E3s to control the CAS stacks instead of the rank amateurs from LFs that do it now.
And that Ladies and Gents is why you need an Air Force - I thank you..."

To be honest, when I read this thread, I did not feel that anyone was really questioning the choice of aircraft, or pushing for for of anything else...Chinook or otherwise. Maybe it is just me, but the thread seemed to have mostly stayed with the number of airframes, and the way in which it was announced.

IMHO the thing in a lot of folks minds is that if less than 50% of requests are being serviced (as you point out), and lets say this two more GR4's will bring it to 50%, then surely we need at least twenty out there!

[ranger703]

Anybody would think from the comments that the Tornado was the only FJ providing gound support in theatre! If all the coalition partners providing fast air provided an extra 2 aircraft to the fight and allowed them to be used as required by the ground forces without national caveats coming in to play then I'm sure the boys would be a lot happier.

As with other recent additions in theatre the extra aircraft are most welcome and will be utilised to the max.

[BrakingStop]

So the GR4s have finally admitted that they need more jets to do the same job that the Harrier Force did with less jets. Oh, and by all accounts it's now significantly less 'busy'. Good job everybody.

[Wrathmonk]

BS

Are they doing the

same job that the Harrier Force did ?

Didn't realise Harrier carried RAPTOR ;)

And according to here (http://www.armedforces-int.com/news/raf-harrier-afghanistan-deployment-to-end.html)the Harriers routinely had 8 jets in theatre. I'm also fairly certain they "increased" this number to cover particular operations once in a whilse .....

And I love Barnstormers comment

then surely we need at least twenty out there

Could these extra 2 jets be the start of a bit of light blue mission creep to ensure the future of the TGRF and the demise of FW FAA ....:E. And get returned home sometime in November!

Nothing like fighting amongst ourselves and trying to score points of each other to bring a smile to the Treasury's faces!

[Biggus]

Wrath,

Re your comments on TGRF trying to ensure their future post SDR.......

I fully admit that I have no specific knowledge of what they did, or who asked for them, but, from an outsiders perspective, the deployment of 2 E-3Ds into theatre for about 8 weeks at the beginning of the year (or was it end of 2009?) did seem to be about showing they had an operational role, and increasing their profile before talk of any cuts......

I could well be wrong, and will no doubt be put in my place (flamed?) shortly - but the most important word in the paragraph above is "seem"!

[skua]

Some of the comments above are being very unfair on the SoS. The fact that he is a doctor by background does not disqualify him from the job. He has had the defence brief for some time. Some one I know very well has met him both in the UK and in Afghan (this week), and says he "gets it".

Furthermore I don't think the guys on the ground are too fussed as to what ISAF member's flag is on the tailfin of the fast air that they request as long as it is 1) quick to the TIC, and 2) effective.

The fact that he had only 2 GR4's in his locker is a reflection on the actions of Cyclops and his tribe rather than DC's mob, surely?

[Wrathmonk]

Biggus

I suspect there is a lot of 'looking busy' going on at the moment - the single service PR teams will be in overdrive looking for any excuse to 'big up' an under threat capability. Surprised there hasn't been a bit of "Argentina vs Falkland Islands" sabre rattling of late ....;)

[barnstormer1968]

Wrathmonk.

Just to be sure you don't keep mis-understanding my comment (even though I did not suggest any other service could fill the role, or suggest any hidden agenda). I really could not care less if you or anyone suspects any hidden agenda, but I would wager, that if troops on the ground were asked if ten GR4's were enough to do all the tasking's requested of them, and with a quick response time for CAS work......They would say no!

You see I have a green background, and really don't care for silly rivalry games.
What I do know is that having ten aircraft in theatre does not mean:
There will always be ten aircraft serviceable at any time.
That ten separate missions will be able to be done at once
Our troops feel fully supported (by the government).

You can feel free to think what you like, but I stand by what I say. The Tornado's will have many different jobs to do. They like to operate in pairs, for good reason. There are tens of thousands of troops for them to support and Afghanistan is a big country if you are under fire and waiting for help!

[HEDP]

Maybe it is the realisation that if the fleet will come to an end shortly then there is no need to conserve fleet hours and we can blow them a bit faster before endex.............

HEDP

[Wrathmonk]

Barnstormer

Thank you for your kind words. Can I refer you to my post #5 in this thread and you will see that I think you and I broadly agree.

If you are unable to see the humour (and sarcasm) in my posts, as reflected by the :E and the ;), in what is rapidly becoming a board full of Armchair Admirals and Air Marshals 'willy waving' (not that it will influence any decision making whatsoever) then I perhaps need to be a bit more blunt.

PS - Edited 'cause I guess the post below is aimed at me:O. Fair cop - serves me right for trying to offer a bit of "ground truth" amongst the bollox.

PPS - and, because of my own background, I am more than aware of the many different jobs that the Tornado currently undertakes and why they like to operate in pairs!:rolleyes:

[Duplo]

beadwindow...