Teaching people to land a PA28 [Archive]

sherig

27th Jul 2010, 12:28

Hello folks - I have flown with a couple of different yet very experienced instructors recently and they both have different methods of teaching students to land in a PA28.

Both involve coming over the threshold at 63kt... Trickling the power off from the threshold to the flare (whilst maintaining the 63kt) being sure to leave a small amount of power on which is removed in a coordinated fashion at the beginning of the flare.

Then the style changes:

1. Progressively ease back on the control column to maintain level flight in the hold off until the aircraft runs out of energy and lands

2. Ease back on the control column and select the landing attitude for the aircraft and wait for it to slow down/run out of energy and land.

What are your thoughts?!

D SQDRN 97th IOTC

27th Jul 2010, 12:52

If you don't completely close the power.....you will find that a PA28 goes a long way in ground effect with some power on!
so get if off !

Ideally the airplane should contact the runway in the attitude that the stall occurs. I gradually reach achieve this attitude this by going through 1.

There are plenty of pprune threads on landing a PA28..........you might find some of them helpful.

FlyingStone

27th Jul 2010, 13:23

Sounds like another FTO teaching to fly SEP aircraft as 300t heavy airliners... Power should be off (idle) when above threshold (although approach should be done with power), reducing power during the flare - especially in ground-effect aircraft such as PA28 or for e. DA20 - is too late and will result in wasted runway...

I agree, PA28 requires slow but constant "pulling" of the yoke during flare - pretty similar to C172. The "attitude landing" where you set the attitude and "see what happens" is for T-tail aircraft, such as PA38 or DA20, which have super-effective pitch control even at low speeds and even the slightly too much pitch-up control results in balooning (and in PA38's case almost always f* landing since it looses so much speed in horizontal flight when you try to do another flare).

But as said, I think there is topic somewhere about landing PA28, which I found out to have VERY interesting and accurate information during my PA28 conversion course.

mad_jock

27th Jul 2010, 14:16

As posted by myself on another thread. Never fails to work.

First of all get the instructor to show you the landing picture.

As you fly down the approach make sure your trimmed.

As the runway appears to starts moving towards you pitch the nose up to the straight and level attitude.

As the runway sides start coming up towards you pitch to the previously demonstrated picture while putting the power to idle. Waggle the rudder pedals so the instructor thinks your actually doing something with them.

Hold the attitude. Now this is the important bit.

In a loud clear voice say "get down you whore"

Once the aircraft has done as its told hold the same picture by increasing back pressure then lower the nose gently to the runway while continuing to pretend you know what your doing with the rudder.

Jobs a goodun.

PS ladys can substitue bastard instead of whore

PPS this method works up to 10 tons in my experence.

cjm_2010

27th Jul 2010, 15:04

I can't comment on a PA28, but I'm learning in a tomahawk (9.5 hrs in) and my last couple of hours have been with a different instructor.

they both appear to have different styles and I've taken bits of both on board. the main differences are in the hold off and flare:

instructor 1 - 70kts all the way, at approx 50 ft (above the fence at the training field) close the throttle over a count of three, then manage the landing by 'coasting' down to flare.

instructor 2 - 70kts all the way, keep the power on until just (within 10 ft?) above the threshold line, gently close throttle and maintain back pressure until the main wheels touch down.

I prefer the approach of 'instructor 2' and I had my first 'greaser' last week. coming off the throttle earlier made me feel a little more vunerable to sink or a sudden gust.

this might seem odd but I've found that landing is way easier than I expected - even easier than on the sim (fs2004). the key - for me - has been picking a spot at or around the threshold and keeping that spot in view.

I do like the sound of the get down you W%ore method. I'll give that a go next lesson. :}

mad_jock

27th Jul 2010, 15:23

Stop thinking about pressure on the controls!!!

Start thinking attitude and picture.

The point you close the power level is really dependent on a few factors wind being the biggest one. Use Q's in you visual reference for when to shut it.

Instructor 1 in your example is one with ideas of grandure flying an airliner.

Instructor 2 is more realistic for a tommy and a GA airfield.

Mind you at 70knts going across the fence it really doesn't matter what you do you have that much energy!!!!

Have a look at your POH and see what speed it tells you to do. 65knts is more normal and personally I do 60 knts over the fence.

I instruct on tommy's and have 750 hours on them.

Sodastream

27th Jul 2010, 15:26

Although all SEP aircraft are different, the technique you apply to land one is the generally the same. They were designed by boffins who know more about aerodynamics than most mortal pilots and are generally benign to when landing.

Know your landing speeds. This will prevent you from ballooning. If you're not sure, it's all written in black and white in the POH.
Fly the approach at this speed. Use power to control the rate of descent and use pitch to control the airspeed. This will help keep the aircraft in the correct attitude for the landing.
Judge the flare by whatever method suits you. I look straight down the runway, and use the aspect of the runway edge. When it appears to be as high as my shoulders in my periphary vision, that's the time to flare.

Smoothly remove any power left and apply a small amount of back pressure. Now the important bit. Imagine the yoke is on a ratchet, it only goes one way and that way is backwards.
If you pull to much and the aircraft slowly rises, hold the yoke steady, speed will slowly reduce and the aircraft will begin to settle down again. If you don't apply enough back pressure you'll thump it in and probably bounce (followed by a go-around).
Once in the flare, keep applying more and more back pressure to hold the aircraft off the runway till it is good and ready to settle down. If done properly, should touch down just as the stall warning starts to chirp.

IMHO, It's all about getting the speed right.

Gulfstreamaviator

27th Jul 2010, 16:45

I have not flown SE for many years, but did not see any reference to flap settings.

Most of my SE training landing, certainly the early ones were all power off, basically glides, is this still taught at all.?

In the Glf, I remove all power at 50ft, and await the ground, in a 2.53 degree attitude, and at 10ft, ease the nose 0.65 degrees higher.

Tried shouting, but hostess kept answering......

Glf

mad_jock

27th Jul 2010, 17:00

It is taught but is seen as some what of a special manover.

B52 bomber circuits are the norm with zero chance of gliding it in if the donk goes.

To be fair alot of airfields its a noise issue which causes this fact.

cjm_2010

27th Jul 2010, 19:55

70 knots does feel quite quick at times. I'm sure it's a stall margin thing perhaps?

I'll try a slower approach speed on the sim to see how it feels. it does make more sense - although I've not yet had a donk landing, there can be a secondary balooning type thing going on which might not be a good thing on shorter runways.

mad_jock

27th Jul 2010, 20:18

Nope the clean stall speed for a PA38 is something like 47 knots clean from memory. If you were going for a standard 1.3Vs approach speed makes it 61knts which is why I use that speed and 55knts for short field.

The reason why your having ballooning issues is because you have way to much energy in the flare to get rid of.

The real guide is the POH read the one for your aircraft and have the discussion with the instructor why your not using those speeds.

I know already they will tell you to continue to use 70knts just be aware its bad practise.

DFC

27th Jul 2010, 21:55

Both involve coming over the threshold at 63kt... Trickling the power off from the threshold to the flare (whilst maintaining the 63kt) being sure to leave a small amount of power on which is removed in a coordinated fashion at the beginning of the flare.

I have highlighted where you are going wrong.

You need to fly a stable trimmed approach at the appropriate speed and in the appropriate configuration towards the aiming point at the correct approach angle.

If you are looking at the airspeed indicator at any time after crossing the threshold then you need to stop asap. Look out the window. Provided you have flown a stable approach with an appropriate speed down to the threshold (about 50ft) then unless you do something drastic the speed will not change.

After crossing the threshold what you have to do is continue the flight towards the aiming point while ensuring that at the appropriate time you start reducing the rate of descent - don't look at the instrument look outside so that you hit the ground at a rate which will not break the aircraft. Ideally the descent will not stop but the rate will reduce which will cause two totehr things to happen;

1. The nose will rise protecting the nosewheel; and

2. The speed will reduce

These are good things and the principle will work from 115Kg Microlight to B747 provided you look out the window, assess what is actually happening and make appropriate control movements.

Of course you do have to close the throttle - at an appropriate stage. I recomend that you get a demonstration from your instructor but in simple terms abide by the following principle - if you are high on energy then you will close it earlier, if you are a bit low then later. Very few occasions will cause you to cross the threshold at exactly the desired speed.

How do you assess the energy? - On the ideal approach where you will cross the threshold at 50ft the just before crossing the threshold have a last look at the airspeed. If for example you are 10Kt fast in a heavy twin (plenty of momentum) then perhaps it is time to close the throttles now. If you are a few knots slow then delay closing the throttle(s). (If you are very slow then go arround.)

So look outside, assess the energy and use all the controls to reduce the rate of descent to an acceptable amount.

1.3 times the stall is the minimum approach speed to 50ft that can be used in the certification process. Unless you are involved in this then this is simply a theoretical figure and the figures published in the POH/AFM are the ones to be aware of.

So use the speed specified by the POH - discuss with FTO/RTF if different. If they are using a higher speed then they must have applied a factor to the published field performance figures.

In sumary - look outside and use the controls to reduce (not stop) the rate of descent to a reasonable amount and accept that it is a good thing to loose some energy between the end of the approach (50ft) and touchdown.

Halfbaked_Boy

28th Jul 2010, 00:17

The technique I use on 90% of aeroplanes is very simple...

Ensure I am at Vat (or 1.3 Vs if this isn't available) and at a suitable height at the point I cross the threshold (or perhaps meginally earlier), at which point, I kill the power completely, and plan not to touch it again. All you need to do then is look at the picture develop and make suitable control inputs to ensure a mainwheel landing.

This works very well in smooth air - in practice (and 99% of the time), you'll have a few gusts and therms to deal with, which will/may require a squeeze of power and adjustment of pitch during the flare to fine it off.

My personal opinion is that a 'hold off' should be made as short as possible if the performance figures are to be achieved, and that the problem a lot of people have is they think if they don't have any power on during the flare the aeroplane will simply drop out of the sky. Generally not true, but of course be ready to push a little in if required! I also believe a lot of people forget about the last 5-10 knots above the stall in which the aeroplane will still be flying and quite controllable, and that it is within this area that you can make or break a good landing.

All the best and happy landings. :)

Cows getting bigger

28th Jul 2010, 06:36

My tuppence worth:

Where on earth is this "over the fence" place? :) Where I fly from there is a displaced threshold and if I cut the power when crossing the 'fence' I would most definitely land short.

So -

How about a nice stable trimmed approach at the POH speed.
Power to maintain glidepath, attitude for speed.
From about 100ft, don't look in, ever. Remember, you should be nicely configured and the speed shouldn't be changing significantly.
As you pass 50ft (about the same height as surrounding buildings, trees, lamposts etc) raise the nose to your normal level attitude (you know, the one you normally use for S&L at about 2300rpm)
Coincidentally, reduce power to idle - don't cut the throttle, just gently reduce it.
Keep the aircraft straight (rudder)
Wait.
The aircraft will start to slow down (you shouldn't notice this as you're not looking in) and descend towards the runway. You will feel this 'sink'
Try to stop this sink by smoothly applying increased back pressure. You don't want the aircraft to land.
Don't use any brisk control inputs.
As the mainwheels touchdown, maintain or even increase the back pressure to try and stop the nosewheel touching down.
When learning, never, ever allow the yoke to go forward once you commence the flare. If you over-flare (balloon), just stop the progressive application of back pressure for a moment or intitiate a go-around. After a while, you will develop techniques to resolve this scenario.

Oh, and relax.

mad_jock

28th Jul 2010, 08:56

Your quite correct cows aboutr using the fence term.

Its a gash Instrument approach term which has no place in light aircraft operations.

The same goes for the number of complete idiots who seem to think you have to cross the start of the runway at 50ft as per commercial operations performance.

DFC

28th Jul 2010, 17:22

The same goes for the number of complete idiots who seem to think you have to cross the start of the runway at 50ft as per commercial operations performance.

Who said anything about commercial operations.

It is well known by anyone flying commercially that commercial operations can often use the threshold height of 35ft (subject to certain requirements) and at other places the minimum threshold crossing height can be in excess of 50ft.

It is simply an industry standard that firstly the performance figures are based upon and that the safe clearance between the wheels and the obstacles under the flight path are based upon.

What a pity that no one has learned from the tragic fatal accident where two experienced pilots were killed and almost killed an innocent bystander under the approach throught hitting moving farm machinery in a field short of the threshold well below what would be considered the normal approach path.

It is imperative the instructors instill in students the simple basics i.e. that it is important to cross the threshold at a safe height and that since the performance figures are based on crossing the threshold at 50ft, then in the absence of any other safety issues that is a good figure to aim for.

Finally, the reason why most things are done in commercial operations is to ensure safety. So if doing X ensures safety and there is noting to gain from doing something different why unnecessarily endanger the flight?

DFC

28th Jul 2010, 17:35

Where on earth is this "over the fence" place? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif Where I fly from there is a displaced threshold and if I cut the power when crossing the 'fence' I would most definitely land short.

For those that have learned to fly in the last 20 to 30 or so years, I will explain - I think everyone else knows the term all too well and where it referrs to!! :)

For performance purposes an imaginary fence was placed at both ends of the runway that had to be cleared. For landing it was 50ft high and placed at the threshold.

I shudder to think what a pilot who thinks like that would do when given the CAA poster advice of "Think Hedgerow not Heathrow"!!! :D

Ryan5252

29th Jul 2010, 00:01

I can't understand this concept that prevails in GA in the UK of making everything more complicated than it actually is. Granted there are some decent points made here but IMHO most is nonsense, or at least to me. It is a good idea when flying at night to judge the flare based on your peripheral vision but to be honest I can't see the need when flying daytime VFR in VMC. There is no need to watch the ROD or the ASI after crossing the threshold, or cut the power at 50' or pitch up 0.65 degrees. OAT, airport elevation and prevailing winds will vary and as such each profile would be flown slightly different.

When landing, I set up a decent approach, sit back and feel the aircraft. I let the aircraft tell me what it needs and adjust accordingly. The event should be an exercise of the senses not of arithmetic or physics (We assume we all have a decent knowledge of anyway, don't we :ok:). I'm not saying my landings are perfect but they are far from terrible. Landing a plane, which lets face it is not rocket science, should be in every pilot's blood. One should develop, over time, a gut feeling of when things are going well and when we should try again. At the end of the day all we are doing is returning the aircraft to the ground with the primary objective of not destroying it, property or those contained within.

Ryan
KISS

Big Pistons Forever

29th Jul 2010, 01:03

RYan5252

Wow.... a PPL with less than one years experience comes on the instructor form to tell tell us instructors how to fly airplanes:rolleyes:. What other pearls of wisdom do you have for us guys who have been doing it for 20 + yrs :ugh:

DFC

29th Jul 2010, 07:11

It is a good idea when flying at night to judge the flare based on your peripheral vision but to be honest I can't see the need when flying daytime VFR in VMC

Peripheral vision is one of the most critical elements in the landing. Especially with respect to judging height above the surface and sink rate.

That is why it is so hard to judge landing in a basic simulator which only has a single flat screen visual. get the same simulator with the visuals extended into the peripheral area and one gets a totally different perspective. This is an important aspect of modern simulator design and operation.

Whopity

29th Jul 2010, 07:27

Trickling the power off from the threshold to the flare (whilst maintaining the 63kt).
1. Progressively ease back on the control column to maintain level flight Impossible to maintain level flight and 63 kts.2. Ease back on the control column and select the landing attitude for the aircraft and wait for it to slow down/run out of energy and land.Sounds like a better description.

Flyingmac

29th Jul 2010, 08:28

Conversion to type. Instructor-"70 knts on final". Me-"55 would be better". Instructor-"No, 70 knts, 65 over the numbers". Resulting float with help from ground effect eats up the runway to the point where a go-around is prudent. Aircraft in landing configuration stalls at 34 knots.

No doubt we'd have landed ok with 1500mtrs of tarmac but not the 500mtrs of wet grass that we had to play with. No mention in this thread of hard/grass/short/long.

FlyingStone

29th Jul 2010, 09:20

Flyingmac, I don't know if you're talking about PA28, which has (at lest -161 II and III) full dirty stall speed at 44 KIAS, but you should be aware that many aircraft (especially C172) have enormous CAS/IAS deviation near stall speed.

For example, C172P has a full flap (30°) stall speed 33 KIAS/46 KCAS and at 40 KIAS, CAS is 47 kts and at 50 KIAS, CAS is 53 kts. That means that if you fly the approach at 50 kts IAS, you are actually only 7 knots above stall speed and not 17 as you may think, since your approach CAS is 53 knots and stall speed (CAS) is 46 kts.

I'm not saying you should fly 70-75 knots into short strips, possibly with terrain that prevents you from going around, but you have to take any possible wind, downdraughts on final (which could force you to land on a road, railroad or river before the threshold) in consideration and 55 knots seems quite slow.

Tigger_Too

29th Jul 2010, 09:31

Conversion to type. Instructor-"70 knts on final". Me-"55 would be better". Instructor-"No, 70 knts, 65 over the numbers". Resulting float with help from ground effect eats up the runway to the point where a go-around is prudent. Aircraft in landing configuration stalls at 34 knots.

From the PA-28-181 POH:

"The airplane should be trimmed to an initial approach speed of about 75 KIAS with a final approach speed of 66 KIAS with flaps extended."

Unless you are absolutely sure you know what you are doing, stick to the POH numbers.

DFC

29th Jul 2010, 11:08

No mention in this thread of hard/grass/short/long.

What difference does that make to the standard procedure of flying a stable approach at the appropriate approach speed to cross the threshold at a safe height on the way to the aiming point?

More to the point, what difference does it make to the correct technique for landing i.e. 50ft to touchdown?

If the performance figures say the runway is long enough then that is OK. If having applied the appropriate factor(s) for grass or wet or tailwind or downslope and the runway length is still sufficient then that is also OK.

However, Tigger_Too quite correctly points out - if the POH gives you a speed to fly then that is the speed to fly and it follows that if the same POH provides figures that show the grass strip you want to fly into is too short then trying to fly in there by shaving 10Kt off the certified approach speed and praying that dragging it in across the road does not cause a collision with a tractor is making a bad situation worse.

Flyingmac

29th Jul 2010, 11:31

The aircraft in question was not a PA28 and the approach speed in the POH is quoted as 55kias. Not 70 as the instructor was insisting upon. As for the C172, the speeds quoted in my own POH are INDICATED airspeeds and nothing else.
Part of my initial training (many moons ago) consisted of approaches and landings with ALL of the instruments covered. Those were the days.
Back to painting the shed.
Airplane pilot prank goes wrong, yet right (http://www.blameitonthevoices.com/2010/07/airplane-pilot-prank-goes-wrong-yet.html)

Say again s l o w l y

29th Jul 2010, 13:01

My landing technique is to point the aircraft at the runway. It seems to work.

The PA28 has to be about the easiest aircraft known to mankind to land. It wasn't nicknamed the "landomatic" for no reason.

Get the speed/energy management right, close the damn throttle and don't land on the nosewheel. Job done.

Ryan5252

29th Jul 2010, 15:10

Wow.... a PPL with less than one years experience comes on the instructor form to tell tell us instructors how to fly airplanes:rolleyes:. What other pearls of wisdom do you have for us guys who have been doing it for 20 + yrs

BPF,
Apologies if I caused you some confusion. It has been known (at least to me) that Students and PPL holders alike post their own views on these boards in addition to the well informed instructors. My post was only my take on the subject so far - which I thought was a fair point. You may be so kind as to go back and re-read my post again and you will note that the views expressed where far from telling "instructors how to fly airplanes" and the views contained were indeed IMHO (In my humble opinion). Nor did I present them as pearls of wisdom. Though since you asked what other pearls of wisdom I have for you, I would suggest reading a post and taking it for what it is. When you have done that, if you disagree with the content of the post I (as a lowly PPL Holder with less than one year's experience) have made you might be so kind to highlight the mistake and what you feel would be a better approach.

That said I agree entirely with say again slowly below and this is the point I was getting at;
Get the speed/energy management right, close the damn throttle and don't land on the nosewheel. Job done.

As a final note, I would ask you BPF, in your 20+ years experience if you have possibly met two types of pilots? One who reads all he can and absorbs knowledge passed on by those with significantly more experience (and gets involved in debate rightly or wrongly) and those who take the limited experience they have and it use it tell others less experienced what they are doing wrong?

I have met both!

Ryan

DFC

29th Jul 2010, 15:24

As for the C172, the speeds quoted in my own POH are INDICATED airspeeds and nothing else.

Quite right too. If it was not that way then how would use the instrument that provides INDICATED airspeed as a reference.

Of course TAS is taken into account when measuring performance but that is done by applying pressure altitude and temperature to the appropriate tables.

The test pilot will have checked PEC and there will be a table or graph in the book.

However, the test pilot will also have tested the appropriate approach speed and used that to determine the performance and certification.

mad_jock

29th Jul 2010, 22:04

Just for the newbies on this site....

DFC has a reputation for posting compelete and utter bollocks with all things to do with instructing and flying aircraft.

Please bear this in mind when you read his posts.

I don't have a clue what he has posted but if he is true to form from a year ago when i eventually put him on ignore he will be talking bollocks but in a way that sounds correct.

You should treat this post as a NOTAM

bingofuel

30th Jul 2010, 08:55

I wish all NOTAMs were as easy to read and understand!!!

DFC

30th Jul 2010, 09:55

I don't have a clue what he has posted

Sums it up quite nicely.

boofhead

30th Jul 2010, 18:57

Kiltie

4th Aug 2010, 11:37

What......... ?

W2k

4th Aug 2010, 11:43

Too many students fly final too fast. If the speed is right, the stall warning will come on during the flare. If it comes on while still on approach, keep the power on, or add power if the IAS is too slow.
Sounds exactly like what my instructor taught me. According to him (and also the skills test examiner), if the stall warner "blips" in the flare just prior to landing, then the speed is right.

barrow

4th Aug 2010, 12:15

KISS
I can't understand this concept that prevails in GA in the UK of making everything more complicated than it actually is. Granted there are some decent points made here but IMHO most is nonsense, or at least to me. It is a good idea when flying at night to judge the flare based on your peripheral vision but to be honest I can't see the need when flying daytime VFR in VMC. There is no need to watch the ROD or the ASI after crossing the threshold, or cut the power at 50' or pitch up 0.65 degrees. OAT, airport elevation and prevailing winds will vary and as such each profile would be flown slightly different.

When landing, I set up a decent approach, sit back and feel the aircraft. I let the aircraft tell me what it needs and adjust accordingly. The event should be an exercise of the senses not of arithmetic or physics (We assume we all have a decent knowledge of anyway, don't we http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif). I'm not saying my landings are perfect but they are far from terrible. Landing a plane, which lets face it is not rocket science, should be in every pilot's blood. One should develop, over time, a gut feeling of when things are going well and when we should try again. At the end of the day all we are doing is returning the aircraft to the ground with the primary objective of not destroying it, property or those contained within.

Ryan
KISS
Best advice in the whole thread.

Johnm

7th Aug 2010, 07:21

I don't come here often, but I do own and fly a PA28 with later type wing (not the old Hershey bar which behaves differently).

Successful landing in moderate wind conditions is a simple matter of following the advice in the POH. Approach speed about 70 to 75 depending on weight with two stages of flap, over the hedge at 60 to 65 with third stage of flap close the throttle, round out, flare slowly and if you have it right it'll touch down as the stall warner starts to chirp and the control column comes full back.

Approach any faster and it'll float for miles.

In gusty conditions cross wind or otherwise it's wise to add add about half the difference between the steady speed and the gust speed and it will land in cross winds well above 20kts like that.