View Full Version : A '109' returns to Biggin.
Batchy
27th Jun 2010, 22:17
A quick post before I go through all my Biggin photos.
The stunning Aircraft Restoration Company Hispano Buchon which is now resplendent in the colours and markings that it carried some 42 years earlier whilst being flown for the Battle of Britain film. The Buchon was flown over the weekend by John Romain.
Batchy.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/woodlands/Bigginweb4jpg.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/woodlands/Bigginweb3jpg.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/woodlands/Bigginweb2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/woodlands/Bigginweb1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/woodlands/Bigginweb5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/woodlands/Bigginweb6.jpg
dakkg651
28th Jun 2010, 09:34
Looks awesome but couldn't they turn that merlin upside down?
gruntie
28th Jun 2010, 09:49
A 'proper' one, same place, about 10 years ago. Spent some time there due problems with pitch-change mechanism or similar.
http://i48.tinypic.com/149ozrd.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/k0qddz.jpg
Agaricus bisporus
28th Jun 2010, 23:36
By no stretch of the imagination is that thing a "109", and I agree its stunning, but rather in the way of a race-horse with a cow's head grafted onto it's neck!
Super Cecil
29th Jun 2010, 00:24
By no stretch of the imagination is that thing a "109" :8
Yoo mob of rivet counters are a bit much. Bloody snobs, it's a 109.:*
JEM60
29th Jun 2010, 05:12
Of course it's a 109. It was built by Messchershmitt [bit early for accurate spelling] for goodness sake. Just because it was supplied to the Spanish as a kit of parts is irrelevant. If I bought a kit plane in the States, and built it here, it would still be named by it's manufacturer, even if I changed the engine in it. It's a 109, built in Germany, assembled in Spain. Simples.:)[Fingers crossed for good weather at Legends, Gary]
RedhillPhil
29th Jun 2010, 06:10
Just as a matter of thickness...why can't the Merlin be mounted upside down, Don't shout at me, I'm only a railwayman.
I gather they were showing the footy at Biggin on Sunday.
I wonder if they got this '109' to do a flypast afterwards...:)
Great photos, look forward to seeing more!
SomeGuyOnTheDeck
29th Jun 2010, 14:46
why can't the Merlin be mounted upside down
Because it would probably seize up after a few minutes? The oil circulation path assumes the engine is the right way up. Most (all?) piston engines are at best only rated for very limited inverted operation.
You'd probably have to take a few inches off the prop diameter too, unless you were planning on cutting the grass rather than flying.
Ridge Runner
29th Jun 2010, 15:04
By no stretch of the imagination is that thing a "109"
So what was the German-engined spitfire, then? A Spiterschmitt? Of course not.... This Buchon is a '109!
Batchy
29th Jun 2010, 19:49
The Buchon almost completes the circle with its RR Merlin engine as the very first 109 flew with a RR Kestrel.
Batchy.
GeeRam
29th Jun 2010, 20:41
Of course it's a 109. It was built by Messchershmitt [bit early for accurate spelling] for goodness sake. Just because it was supplied to the Spanish as a kit of parts is irrelevant. If I bought a kit plane in the States, and built it here, it would still be named by it's manufacturer, even if I changed the engine in it. It's a 109, built in Germany, assembled in Spain.
I'm afraid it's not a 109 and no part of any HA-1112-M1L ever originated in Germany, as the first one wasn't made until 1954 and no parts of any of them were made by Messerschmitt...... :rolleyes:
Ridge Runner
29th Jun 2010, 20:46
I stand corrected!!!
spook
29th Jun 2010, 20:53
Well, whatever it is...or isn't - it looks fabulous!!:D
JEM60
29th Jun 2010, 21:03
Thanks GEERAM. Mis-information from a trusted friend!!!:uhoh::uhoh: Just looked it up for myself, and it was the HA-1109-J1l which had some Messerschmitt built airframes. Cheers.
RedhillPhil
30th Jun 2010, 06:02
So if most(all) piston engines are only able to be inverted for a short time how did Herrs Daimler und Benz manage to get their 601 to be mounted inverted in Herr Messerschmitt's little aeroplane? Presumably then the oil thingies were different.
Agaricus bisporus
30th Jun 2010, 11:58
Clearly part of an engine's is design is related to which way up it is mounted.
Despite most aero engines being dry sump an upright engine will have some sort of oil scavenge system from the sump where any surplus oil will collect by gravity. Turn it upside down and that oil will fall into the bores and pistons when operating and collect there when not running which has to be addressed and minimised in the design as neither pistons nor spark plugs like operating whilst filled with oil. An inverted engine must also scavenge oil from below the valve gear wheras an upright one will drain the rockers by gravity. The inverted time limitation on an engine will partly be due to these oil issues, but may also include hydraulic and fuel considerations (fluid pickup from tanks, cavitation of pumps, flow from tank breathers etc). Highly likely the Benz engine had an inverted limitation too. Perhaps someone here knows?
Because it would probably seize up after a few minutes? The oil circulation path assumes the engine is the right way up. Most (all?) piston engines are at best only rated for very limited inverted operation.
I wonder how a radial manages then. Half of it is always inverted no matter what your bank angle :)
Agaricus bisporus
30th Jun 2010, 12:35
Because it is designed to work that way.
No doubt if you wanted your radial to work horizontally (say in a helicopter) you'd have to modify it extensively inside.
SomeGuyOnTheDeck
30th Jun 2010, 12:44
So if most(all) piston engines are only able to be inverted for a short time how did Herrs Daimler und Benz manage to get their 601 to be mounted inverted in Herr Messerschmitt's little aeroplane? Presumably then the oil thingies were different.
The DB 601 was designed from the outset as an inverted V12.
As for radial engines, perhaps they likewise were designed to operate at a given orientation, though given the reluctance of some to start, I wonder whether they ever really cracked the problem.
MichaelJP59
30th Jun 2010, 15:07
I love WW2 warbirds as much as anyone, but isn't this one stretching things a bit? After all it doesn't date from WW2, it's not a BF109, it doesn't even have the correct engine, and to cap things off, it's displaying nostalgia for the 1970's film of a famous battle, not the actual conflict itself!
Bet it sounds nice though:)
FAStoat
30th Jun 2010, 16:22
Not a Bf109 or a Buchon,but I have just been sent photos of one of the New Build Replica FW190,participating at the Airshow at Hyeres Aeronavale Airfield,which ended up in the sea and was recovered by Salvage Team from Toulon.I have no idea what went wrong,but Pilot was recovered unhurt,with the Aircraft a trifle mauled!!This may be the Airframe that was at Duxford for some time,but never flew .It arrived from the States and was sold earlier this year or end of last year.I am unable to put the photos on Prune,but have the link as follows:http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=113494 (http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=113494).A tragic shame!!
JEM60
30th Jun 2010, 17:55
I have been led to believe that it is the one that displayed at Duxford, owned by M. Christophe Jacquard. Glad driver is o.k. I was hoping it was coming over again for Flying Legends in 10 days time. I may, however, be wrong, but I have seen no evidence that the 'static' Duxford one has yet flow in France.
JW411
30th Jun 2010, 18:15
It is my understanding that the pilot of the Replica FW190 was practising for an air display off Hyeres in S. France when the (Russian built) engine failed.
The aircraft was successfully ditched just off shore and the pilot swam ashore.
GeeRam
30th Jun 2010, 19:28
I have been led to believe that it is the one that displayed at Duxford, owned by M. Christophe Jacquard. Glad driver is o.k. I was hoping it was coming over again for Flying Legends in 10 days time. I may, however, be wrong, but I have seen no evidence that the 'static' Duxford one has yet flow in France.
Correct - it was the a/c that flew at Legends last year, and also correct that the ex-Tom Blair example hasn't flown yet.
Batchy
30th Jun 2010, 20:15
The Jacquard example that recently ditched.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/woodlands/FLsunphoto10.jpg
The former Tom Blair 190 at DX in July 07.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/woodlands/FLsun0714-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/woodlands/FW190DXFL07.jpg
Batchy
SomeGuyOnTheDeck
30th Jun 2010, 21:29
Going back to the discussion about mounting a Merlin inverted on the 'not-really-a-109', I've checked in the (Merlin engined) 'P-51 Mustang Pilot's Flight Manual', and in the section marked 'Acrobatics' (sic), it says:
...you must limit inverted flying to 10 seconds because of loss of oil pressure and failure of the scavenger pump to operate in inverted position.
I understand the 'not-really-a-Fw-190' is being salvaged, though whether it will fly again will probably depend on the extent of damage.
Continuing with thread creep. Photo in today's 'Aeroplane' shows the ditched 190 being recoverd, seemingly with little or no airframe damage, although the nose section was still underwater in the picture. Nasty stuff tho, salt water.