Etihad incident in JFK 17 June

[Bredrin]

What happened to EY101 in JFK on 17Jun? Heard they landed short and hit the runway end lights.

[King on a Wing]

Yep....took some rwy edge lights too...

[CanadaRocks]

The A Team crew on flight information shows a DHD back to AUH. Ouch!

[neilb767]

little while back there was a circular from airbus of pilots losing there "piloting skills".... no wonder, now we depend on Papi/Vasi/ILS ...

can't even remember the last time I used an ADF for an approach... let alone judge the touchdown point without the "ball"

guess if you have never flow without this high tech stuff then it just makes it a bit more difficult.

good luck guys..must have been a long flight back to AUH.

[Sqwak7700]

little while back there was a circular from airbus of pilots losing there "piloting skills".... no wonder, now we depend on Papi/Vasi/ILS ...


Well, while I agree with you that the profession is changing, pilots have been landing short ever since the airplane has been around. In fact, the first 747 landed short in seattle during one of its test flights with quite extensive damage. Nobody ever doubted the skill of those pilots.

AUH to JKF is a very long flight, no matter how much in-flight rest you get. And today's airliners are very long (773, A346), it is not as simple and straightforward as making sure things look right.

Considering all the effects that can mess with a pilot's perception during approach, it could happen to anyone.

[411A]

Nobody ever doubted the skill of those pilots.
Boeing did....they fired one, and he went to Lockheed, for more $.:ok:
Some win...some lose.
Limited hand flying skills in any type can leave many pilots out of the loop, with sometimes expensive results.

[Chandler Bing]

And EY 017/19JUN lost contact over LAM in LHr for 15 minutes on both 123.9 and 121.5......

[amberman]

Here is another version, same same but different

Incident: Etihad A345 at New York on Jun 17th 2010, took out runway edge lights on landing (http://avherald.com/h?article=42d3805e&opt=0)

[Instant Hooligan]

Sounds like they didn't land short but instead took out some edge lights dealing with a 20kt crosswind.

[ManaAdaSystem]

I believe they installed VASI/PAPI/ILS, in order to improve safety, so yes, we rely on these excellent pieces of equipment to guide us down. I don't think removing them, installing NDB's and turning off the runway/approach lights will improve safety, but obviously some posters will disagree.
In Chennai some years ago they had a temp displaced threshold with no approach lights, no temp PAPI, and just a LOC/DME. Night landings in hazy/misty/foggy conditions.
I'm a chicken, so I always opted for the VOR RWY 25.
Two 747's (that I know of) landed short of the displaced threshold. I watched a Blue Dart 737 nearly doing the same, and this was their home base.
Night landings without anything to guide you down is a risky business. For most of us. No worries for the heros of aviation, apparently.
Not really related to this incident, I know.

Good luck in AUH guys! Hopefully EY will use this incident to see if they can improve their operation, but I doubt it. A ticket home, more likely, if the pilot was not a UAE citizen.

[frieghtdog]

EY will never learn from there mistakes, but they will blame it on the pilots, and they will forget there bad hiring practice and some bad command upgrades as well.

[Nightfire]

EY will never learn from there mistakes

Disagree. They usually do. After interviewing the pilots, they will decide about what is going to happen next.

Obviously, the crew will deadhead back after such an incident, and remain grounded until the investigation is completed. That's normal. But before knowing all the details, there's also the possibility that it was not their fault.

Personally, my sympathy is with the pilots, so until the opposite is proven, I believe they are not to blame. Thinking of fatigue, wind gusts, short/narrow runway, there are several factors that can lead to "close shaves".

[NG_Kaptain]

Recently American Airlines declined the same runway due excessive crosswind and declared an emergency. JFK insists on using the 22's/04's when it would be more appropriate to use 31R. I recently landed a 345 on 4R with a gusty crosswind from the NW and in retrospect I should of insisted on 31R.



http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/414573-aa-crew-fed-up-jfk-atc-declares-emergency.html

[auh_to_auh]

Ditto NG Kaptain,

I feel four the guys, when will the powers that be realise that crosswind limits are just that. It doesn't mean every landing below the crosswind limit is safe. Agree with the AA boys and NG's last comment. More of us should refuse landings under those conditions. SYD sometimes can be as guilty as JFK at times, using 16R/34L because politics say so.

See you soon guys. :ok::ok::ok:

[BITE System]

New York is a mess! They need to spend some of the landing fees on upgrading and maintaining the navigation aids. All RWY have ILS approaches but none seem to work! So much for safety! 13L needs some PAPI's, doing a carnasie approach at night or during the day with no PAPI's or VASI's when you are tired is asking for trouble.

[shortfuel]

It appears it was 04L with an 18 kt crosswind landing. Not unfeasible I guess even for a 'regular' line pilot...
Let's hope they will not suffer from any unfair treatment.

On the other side, as it has been suggested before, yes, basic flying skills are at risk in Etihad! Management and training department are just ignoring this issue and hiding behind 'make a full use of automation' moto.

When you just wanna fly raw data and the guy (instructors incl.) sitting next to you is asking 'what do you wanna prove?' or 'if you have an OPC coming up?'...then you realize that there is a systemic problem...

[puppet-master]

Etihad Pilots. Does your Company FORCE you to do auto land all the time:mad: Pilot Skill:D:D:D:ok:

[Jetjock330]

They do not force you to autoland, on the contrary, but an autoland should be practiced during the first landing after an OPC. Shortfuel is possibly referring to the use of autothrust.
Making one landing before an OPC without autothrust is not going to improve anything during your OPC.

[shortfuel]

As said, I was referring to raw data...means AP/FD OFF (A/THR at your discretion)...at least in my documentation.

Making one landing before an OPC without autothrust is not going to improve anything during your OPC.
It stands to reason...:ugh:...as for GCAA OPC we can't make it easier, can we?

My point is that if (lack of) basic flying skills is found to be a contributing factor of this incident then it should be a good opportunity for the training dpt to tackle this automation culture...:suspect:

[puppet-master]

So how does AP and Athrust off help flying skills on landing. On the APP that I will accept, BUT landing? If you want to practise I believe the SIM was created for that otherwise there will be many variant on how to improve pilot skills on line. This could be dangerous. Ciao

[Jetjock330]

Shortfuel
My point is that if (lack of) basic flying skills is found to be a contributing factor of this incident then it should be a good opportunity for the training dpt to tackle this automation culture.This is not about automation and flight directors when you land on edge lighting. This is the ability to fly a big jet, which for the past 4 years we fly to JFK, we have not had anyone land on the edge lighting. As for your experience, A320/A330, your time will come to fly a longer jet on a longer route, and automation is helpful at the end of a ULR flight. Other things help even more like PAPI/VASI/ILS etc...

Not every ILS is capable of an autoland. If I remember correctly, JFK22R has a runway course of 225 and localizer of 222 degrees compared to 22L which has 225 runway and LOC 225. Autolanding on an off set course will shorten your career quickly. It is about understanding automation and handling a big jet. The runways seem narrower, the bigger the jet and holding center-line is of utmost importance. Removing the flight director and autothrust ain't going to help in this case.
If you think that removing the automation will improve your sense of direction of center-line, then you are mistaken. If anything, autothrust helped them get that far, but as for the direction of flight, that was up to the flying pilot. According to the AIMS, this was an A340-500 and I would suspect things could be worse had it been a A340-600.

[shortfuel]

Jetjock, I am sure you're a sensible person and that you got my point. I took this incident opportunity to open on another related issue as some posters talked about basic flying skills.
As regards your last post, your assumptions are yours.

[PositiveRate876]

Maybe more ammunition to feed to get JFK ATC to sort their act out....

What's wrong with JFK ATC? The runway configuration at all three main international airports has to be coordinated. When you change runways at JFK, you have to change at LGA and at EWR. Having one runway closed for 4 months doesn't help either. The airlines were asked to reduce and re-time their flight during the closure, and chose not to comply. So you can't blame the JFK ATC for pushing tin any way they can with the resources they're given.

EY101 at 27:00min
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kjfk/KJFK-Twr-Jun-17-2010-1930Z.mp3

[puppet-master]

Nice guy never gets the prom queen. := And nice pilot does NOT mean good pilot. We all make mistakes but very few of US will admit to it. :confused: There are always contributing factors to an incidence. Ciao breakfast at M&B.:)

[Captain Oryx]

The Qatar flight was normal, albeit with a crosswind. No abnormal "sideways movements" reported.

[Bredrin]

When you are not allowed to do autolands at home base because of alleged interference between the localizers 31R/13L you end up maybe doing them away from home in less than ideal conditions. Yes, the Capt has to make his decision as to where and when to do his autolands.
There is NO problem with the localizers in AUH interfering with each other.......but, that's another potential disaster waiting to happen.

[Fubaar]

A discussion on the same topic on the main R&N page - with strong opinions.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Is the EY AUH-JFK double crewed? :\

[Sir Osis of the river]

Puppet Master,

In his case, he got better than the prom queen:D and he IS a darn good pilot:ok:

Personally,I would listen to him.

Sir O

( But we are entitled to our own opinions)

[shortfuel]

... but it was probably needed due 30 days requirement after their OPC.

Needed?! What do you think will happen if you don't manage to do an autoland after your OPC? Nothing. (unless you're doing LFUS).
So no need to put yourself in troubles because you think that autoland is a requirement, it's not: if following your OPC you only end up in busy/congested airports where signal integrity is not assured, forget about your autoland!

That practice autoland after OPC was requested to provide data for the autoland monitoring program, nothing more. By the way, in the OM-D, it's only a recommendation.

Mr Angry,
AUH-JFK is a double crew ULR flight.

Bredrin,
I think the new CTL tower is interfering with the LLZ radiation...not the other RWY.

[Bredrin]

Mr Angry
Yes it is 'double crewed, the crew doing the landing generally rests for about 6 hours prior to landing and returns to the 'deck' one hour before landing.

AND
Puppet Master
............The PIC involved in the incident is a very good pilot in all respects

[CanadaRocks]

In the Ey ops specs the max crosswind for autoland into the US is 15 knots. That's more limiting. I have the crosswind compent at 19. I hope it was not an autoland, or someone is going to be in trouble.

It's a good training question for our flights to ORD and JFK.

Be careful boys and girls!

CR

[power ke?]

Ditto the PIC is a good pilot. Unfortunately the rumour is the team B Captain wrote a nasty report against the PIC after the incident. What a :mad:

[BusyB]

Canada Rocks,
Is that not the LWMO crosswind limit?:confused:

[Kalistan]

Wow, so many attesting to how good a pilot the PIC was. Good on him.

I guess he is an ivory sky god. Had he been a coloured or Asian one, the insinuations and put downs on how lousy his flying skills were would have been deafening.

[Fubaar]

Kalistan, I can't comment on Etihad, but at EK, some of the most highly regarded pilots - by damn near every pilot in the company when it was still small enough for everyone to know each other - were and are anything but white.

The same would one have been said about the Admin bosses. I think I can safely drop a name here - Leroy was about as black as black men get, and highly respected - I'd go so far as to say damn near idolised by the pilots he worked night and day for.

[4HolerPoler]

No more reference to skin color on this thread - there's no place & no call for it.