Two Hand Rotation in Boeings. Is this technique essential?

[A37575]

Listen here. I know it is a trivial question, but I am bored while waiting for my ever loving spouse to serve roast beef and Yorkshire pudding this evening. So I thought it time to shuffle the cards and come up with yet another trivial aviation question which has always had me wondering.

Early training in the Air Force of my country accented one hand on the throttle (s) during take off and at most other times - including the landing. Rotation was done with one hand only. Friction nuts in those days were often unreliable - the Dakota being a classic example. A fatal accident occured several decades ago when a drunken ground staff airman "borrowed" a RAAF Dakota for a wager and actually got it airborne one night but when he tried to retract the landing gear with his right hand he took hand off the throttles to do so, but he forgot to tighten the friction nut first. Both throttles slipped back to idle and that was the end of the unfortunate airman. He won the bet but lost his life.

Pilots using side-sticks as in the Airbus use one hand on the throttles and the other on the side-stick during lift off and climb out. Yet, traditionally, Boeing pilots transfer the hand off the throttles at V1 and use both hands to rotate and initial climb until autopilot engagement. When hand flying a 737 (for example) the manufacturer recommends one hand on the throttles and the other hand on the control wheel.

With regards therefore to the last paragraph, why are two hands needed for rotation in Boeings? Does that include the B777 too?

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi A37575,

Interesting question. Having flown both types, the loads on the side stick of the Airbus are tiny compared to those required on Boeings. I sometimes wondered if I was actually physically lifting the aircraft off the ground myself when the stab trim didn't exactly match the loaded distribution of the passengers.

As for hands on thrust levers - I remove my hand from the TLs at V1, and (on the Airbus) place it on my knee (because I can't think of anything else to do with it until I have to select a different thrust gate). I've seen other Airbus pilots put their hands back on the TLs and I still wonder "Why?"

[kenparry]

why are two hands needed for rotation in Boeings?

They are not needed, but some people prefer it that way. The stick loads are not high at rotate, though they do vary between types. For example, the 757 needs more pull then the 767 because of different philosophies between the Renton team (757) and the Everett (or Seattle?) team (767). The former wanted to avoid any push force at V2 + 15, so had a slightly more nose-down trim setting; the latter wanted to be in trim at the same speed, so the rotate force was light. 777 I can't comment.

[Bullethead]

G'day Gents,

I first flew a Boeing, B707, back in 1982 and the reason stated for removing your hand from the thrust levers at V1 and placing it on the control column was to help prevent an inadvertent RTO when past V1. With both hands occupied on the control column it is highly unlikely that you would remove one hand and close the thrust levers after V1.

Dunno about the Tripler but I suspect it's the same technique.

Regards,
BH.

[zlin77]

777 same technique.....

[TyroPicard]

Two hands means a roll input on rotation is less likely if not needed, and easier in either direction if it is needed.

[PantLoad]

What does your SOP say? If your SOP doesn't specify, then this issue falls into the 'technique' bucket....not the SOP bucket.

Airbus pilots do not have their hands on the thrust levers after V1.
(At least this was my company's SOP....I believe it is Airbus SOP, as well.)

Of course, for the Boeing, you can wear your outdated headset over your hat. Then, during rotation, you can grunt, make faces, etc., as you use both hands to rotate. At some point, you can get on the radio and say,
"Calling Rangoon...Calling Rangoon....Come in Rangoon."

Fly safe,

PantLoad

[oz in dxb]

My thoughts are that you take your hand off the thrust lever (Capt) at V1 and place it on the control column as a sign that you are not stopping. I guess that you could place your hand on your knee (or anywhere else!), but more convenient to place it on the control column.

Oz

[GlueBall]

" . . .one hand on the throttle (s) during take off"

On the runway: Not ever at or after V1. It's not just SOP and common sense, but practical sanity. :ooh:

[bellcrank88]

In my 10 years on the 744/747 I never saw anyone fly an engine failure (in the simulator) with one hand on the yolk. Two hands on the yoke indicates you are ready to to and ready to handle an engine failure or handling problem if they occur. Doing a takeoff with one hand on your lap would concern me on this aircraft type.

[bflyer]

Hi everybody

Throughout several aircraft types of both eastern and western manufacture and last on the 320, my company's SOP was always, after V1, both hands on the yoke if it is a yoke, or in your lap if it is a sidestick
bflyer

[IRRenewal]

bflyer wrote:

Throughout several aircraft types of both eastern and western manufacture and last on the 320, my company's SOP was always, after V1, both hands on the yoke if it is a yoke, or in your lap if it is a sidestick

Both hands in your lap if it is a sidestick? How do you rotate?

[Tmbstory]

In my time it was always SOP, I think the original reason was to say that we were going!

Tmb

[alexban]

IRRenewall : you just say : 'Rotate'.... :))

[Marant]

Nice catch IRRenewal..:D

[NSEU]

Friction nuts in those days were often unreliable - the Dakota being a classic example.

Perhaps the friction nuts are more reliable on a Boeing :}

Looking a diagrams, the thrust levers on a 747-400, for example, appear to be weighted more in the forward direction (excluding all the mechanisms below). i.e. more downhill than uphill. There are no steel cables-to-engines involved which might tug the levers backwards. When it comes to thrust, it's "fly-by-wire".

Also, power is automatically removed from the autothrottle servo at 65 knots, so there is less chance of an uncommanded thrust reduction during takeoff.

Regards.
NSEU
(Yorkshire born... but it's quite a while since I had Yorkshire pudding)

[Slasher]

With both hands occupied on the control column it is highly
unlikely that you would remove one hand and close the
thrust levers after V1.

Yeh Bullethead same reason I was taught that technique.

On the Frogmobile (A320) I stick my arm on the RH armrest
and hold it for the same instinctive reason.

[ImbracableCrunk]

On the runway: Not ever at or after V1. It's not just SOP and common sense, but practical sanity. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/icon25.gif

I'm guessing it's been a while since you've flown a Part 23 twin. . .

[BGQ]

Considering that at least 12 Boeing 777 pilots have encountered extremely high rotation forces in the last few years and in 11 of those cases the crew has aborted from speeds well above V2 (yes V2).

An extra tug on the wheel would have disconnected the autopilot that was engaged on the ground.

I would say "two hands are better but one is OK"

:eek::eek::eek:

[mustafagander]

Being the simple soul that I am, having both hands on the yoke after V1 positively reminds me that V1 is past and there should be no stopping.

I wonder whether the instinctive "OH ****" when there is a big bang around V1 + 5 or so may lead to any near involuntary movement of the T/Ls were you to still have hands on?

[misd-agin]

Essential? Absolutely not. Almost every guy/gal I fly with (dozens every year) rotate with one hand. The 'two handed' monster is very rare.

100 lbs (45 kg) women rotate 757's with one hand so strength is not an issue.

757 is always nose heavy. Trim feel is almost perfect if you use max power. Nose up thrust line is the difference.

[Spooky 2]

I believe that if you posed this question to a Boeing Flight Controls engineer they would tell you that the force required to rotate all of the current Boeings is the same. Or least thats what they told us a few weeks ago.:}