Aerobatics!

[757_wannabe]

Hi, i am nearing the end of the ATPL exams and will be looking to go hours building either at the end of this year or the start of next. I am contemplating the idea of doing an aerobatics course for some enjoyment after the hard slog of the written exams. Basically i was wondering what the general consensus of an aerobatics rating is in the airline industry? Ie. do they look favourably on it as an extra qualification?

Also, if anyone has any previous experience of this course could they gave me a heads-up as to what it entails and suggets a possible school for it?

Many Thanks in advance!

[Aerouk]

I may be completely off the mark here, but I'm pretty sure I read something a couple of years ago that said private jet firms send a lot of their pilots off to do aerobatic training.

I'm pretty sure Leading Edge (at Cumbernauld and Perth) done an aerobatic course, I would also check with Prestwick Flight Centre/Flying club because a number of their members are part of display teams flying aircraft like Chipmunks, Yaks etc.

[JLMF]

I´m very interested in this post also.If someone have any information, would be really useful.
Thanks.

[AshThompson]

Stapleford Flight Centre run the AOPA Aerobatics Course in a Slingsby Firefly. Might be worth a look. :)

[Bullethead]

G'day 757_wannabe,

I live on the other side of the planet to you and so don't really know what the employment scene is where you are but I can make a few general comments.

Aeros are fun though also hard work, any sort of advanced manouvre training will give you confidence in your ability to fly an aeroplane in all aspects of flight including recovery from unusual situations and so is valuable experience.

Make sure that when you do your aerobatics course that some sort of advanced manouvre training is included. I've just done a quick google search and there appear to be plenty of schools which can give you this sort of training.

I've been in an airline for over 20 years and we have to do unusual attitude recovery (UA) in the simulator, as a regulatory requirement, every so often. Aeros and UAs are something that simulators don't simulate very well at all and to my mind it's a bit farsical teaching and training this stuff in the sim. I have the advantage of having previously been in the RAAF for many years where UA recovery in a real aeroplane was a significant part of the training so anything like this you can do in an aeroplane will have a career long advantage.

Enjoy the ride,
BH.

[757_wannabe]

thanks for your responses guys, very much appreciated!

[redsnail]

Do the airlines in the UK desire aerobatics?
Not really.
However, what'll it do for your confidence and skills is incredible. Also, it may give you something to talk about in the interview. Especially if you continue to do aerobatic flying once you're flying professionally.

I don't do aerobatics, my husband used to do them in Australia. To be honest, the only flying I would entertain in the UK is something like aerobatics or floats. Doing xcountry flying would feel like work but a lot slower. ;)

NetJets Europe sent their cadets on an aerobatic course.

[Bro]

Definitely. Your confidence and handling skills will be greatly improved. Also it is great fun. Enjoy!

[Pizza Express]

As an airline pilot with a aerobatic instructors rating and 10 years of aerobatic flying under my belt I can tell you first of all UK airlines don't give a dam, in fact they probably would not know what an aerobatic rating is if it came through their letter box as most airline recruitment is now done by cabin crew on maternity leave or HR people who are more interested in your ability to be shafted by very poor working conditions roster/pay paying for training bla bla bla.

If I were chief pilot of Pizza Express Airlines I would send all my pilots on an aerobatic course! Its fantastic fun and great for flying confidence and general flying skills.

The most important thing is your instructor, chose a guy with a good reputation and proven track record in aerobatics. I would suggest you stay away from cesena aerobats and beagle pups they are just too under powered to be effective IMHO. look for something with at least 180HP as a min or you will spend all your time climbing. In order my ideal trainers would be Pitts S2A/Cap 10/firefly 180/200/260. You will get more done and have more fun 3 25 min pitts flights than 10 flights in something under powered with a crap roll rate. Just my thoughts others may have their own views.

Happy flying

[nickyjsmith]

Recently had an areo's taster at Kemble,in a bulldog, it was great!
I will be doing their advanced ppl, you can customise the course to suit what you want, although it will still cover their core skills. Basically it covers some aero's, upset training, low level work and emergencies, matz crossing if you want, all with the aim of tidying up your flying and getting you organised.
You can also add the aero's course to it.The instructors are mostly ex-mil, all are very experienced and do it because they enjoy it. The guy that took me up was Dave Jones, ex cfi at Bristol flying school, current IRE, etc, corperate jet pilot and aerbatics competion flyer. He was great.
They are a bit dearer than some but after trying them thats where i'm going. You get what you pay for.

Happy flying.

[NYhelipilot]

If you're in/around Yorkshire, try Sherburn Aero club as they have a Robin 2160 and teach basic aeros. I did a conversion onto the 2160 many (many) years ago and did a few hours of aeros (missed them from my UAS days).

According to their website you can train for the AOPA Aerobatic Certificate.

All those years ago club members did go to aerobatic competitions.

[DB6]

Bear in mind that it's not actually an aerobatics rating you'll be getting - there is no such thing in the UK. Most schools offer the AOPA aeros syllabus as their aerobatic training schedule - do a search for AOPA Basic Aerobatics and you should be able to dig up a copy. If not send a pm and I will send you one.
Not a concern for most airlines I would say, but probably the best way to improve your handling skills bar none. Closest to you will probably be Prestwick but not sure about instructor availability. Ask at Carlisle as well, problem is you need reasonable weather so continuity can be difficult if you want to do it intensively. Further afield Tayside do the AOPA aeros course at Dundee as well, 5 fully aerobatic Grobs so aircraft availability good. Good luck - you won't regret it.

['India-Mike]

Further to DB6's comments although we're closest to you, instructor availability will be an issue. Also we've only got Chipmunks available for aero hire and hence there's concern with tailwheels as well and it's not to everyone's taste.

If I were you I'd go to Dundee. The Grob is a lovely aeroplane for this kind of thing and will build your confidence in all aspects of unusual attitude recovery, spinning and aerobatics in general. Excellent value for money.

[Pizza Express]

DB6

For your information there is a UK aerobatic rating for your licence, it's for instructors to teach aerobatics, there is a course for it and it removes the restriction not to teach aerobatics from your licence, if that makes sense.

[DB6]

Aha, well since you mention it Pizza.....as you say yourself it's not a rating, it's a removal of a restriction from one (instructor's) however it won't be appropriate to 757-wannabe as he hasn't finished his ATPLs so probably won't be an instructor. For a PPL there is no aerobatics rating nor any restrictions on flying aeros - apart from self-preservation of course. As you say it's not that easy to make sense of, or as I prefer to say it's a load of JAR/EASA European crap! N.B. Not having a go, but if you check my profile and insert 'aerobatics' between 'Tayside' and 'FI' you'll get my drift :ok:.

[Pizza Express]

DB6

I did my PPL at Tayside Aviation Dundee in about 1995 after RAF FS. Small world

[Nine_Inch__Wings]

From aus here as well.

Currently completing airline cadetship.

We do unusual attitude recovery, and also aerobatics endos for a few manouevres (forgive me if spelt incorrectly, never get this word right).

DOES help with aircraft handling ability.

CAN save your life one day.

A lot of incidents these days involve the pilot either:


Being unaware of the aircraft energy state/attitude
Being aware of this, but failing to regain control
Using the wrong techniques to regain aircraft controlAll you have to do is look at the relatively recent Egyptian 737 i think it was, that hit the water shortly after take-off due to a number of factors - including the inability to recover from the aircraft upset.

NIN

edit: oh, and it was in a Citabria - ripper little aircraft!! about 700kgs with 180hp i think.

[DB6]

Pizza, Marjan's still there (and Lovat)!

[Pizza Express]

DB6

Marjan did my test ad I had Fiona for the rest of it, I wonder what she is doing these days?

[JLMF]

Any advise to get an oportunity in this wonderful world, and how participate in championships and get sponsored?
The best way? Buy an extra 200?
Any schools near florida with a good reputation in respect aerobatics?
JL

[Pizza Express]

JLMF

For the UK everything you need to know and a list of expert contacts can be found at www.aerobatics.org.uk

[SpreadEagle]

I was lucky enough this week to get a jolly in a firefly with Bob Poole at Sleap aerodrome. I thought I'd probably lose my lunch, but I was fine. I loved every minute. If I lived up that way, I'd definitely do some lessons with him. As he said to me when we lined up "Aerobatics is the second best thing a man can do". After that, I'm inclined to agree with him. Just Awesome! Thanks Bob. :ok:

[DX Wombat]

Pizza, here's the link to the BAeA website (http://www.aerobatics.org.uk), yours doesn't work.
For anyone thinking seriously about doing aerobatics, whether or not you eventually decide to compete, may I suggest you look at the list of events and competitions and take yourself off to at least one of them to help. You will be made most welcome, find the experience invaluable and no previous experience is required.
Spread Eagle, if you are able to spare the time, take yourself back to Sleap on Friday and Saturday for the BAeA competition. I had planned to be there but unfortunately I'm grounded as I have just had cataract surgery and won't be able to drive before late Monday afternoon at the earliest.

[flymum]

Pizza Express
I've retired from flying instruction for the mo. Married with three kids who all have the flying bug - poor hubby! Aged 5,4 and 3 they've all been flying in the last couple of weeks from Dundee.

DB6 is as always correct. The aeros course allows a removal of the restriction on an instructors rating. An instructors rating allows you teach anything as long as the appropriate restriction has been removed.

[bbrunton]

Here in the USA at a local flight school we had two groups of 10 ab intro students from a China airline. The airline requested that 5 hours of aerobatics be included in their training. I was hired on contract to perform that training. We used a Cessna Aerobat, which they could relate to and it is fine for the very basic maneuvers. Spending a little time climbing after a series of maneuvers lets you get your bearings and relax anyway.

Obviously some of the students loved it, and some would rather have been somewhere else. Not one of them became ill but a few of them did turn a little green around the edges. They all left with the ability to recover from some very unusual attitudes.

I would highly recommend aerobatics, just the 3 fundamental aerobatic maneuvers of loop, roll and spin.

Here in the US there is no aerobatic restriction on an instructor certificate and I have been teaching aerobatics for 35 years.


Bill