I think they call it 'scare in the community' ?!

[Puritan]

This is what a nutter (imho) did to a CityFlyer hostie: Terror on flight BA8106 (http://www.thisisbrightonandhove.co.uk/brighton__hove/news/NEWS8.html)

[This message has been edited by Puritan (edited 14 October 2000).]

[Dr. Red]

The guy obviously was a nutter, a total loser. No doubt he'll get off with a light sentence from the bleeding heart judicial system.

Lock him away forever, I say.

[Tartan Gannet]

This is why I had a smile when I read about the teenaged pax who went off his rocker on an aircraft over the USA and was given his just deserts by the other PAX, that is he was terminated.

Now Im sure all the liberal lawyers and the likes will wet themselves over this, and all the do-gooders will be on the side of this animal. Well, tough! If he had been likewise killed by other PAX or an Air Marshall or other crew member defending the stewardess, I for one would happily live knowing that one of this type of scum had been eliminated. We do not need this kind of dangerous person in society.

My rules are quite simple. The rights of decent, law-abiding citizens, be they PAX on aircraft, cabin or flight-deck crew, shoppers, people driving the roads, etc, etc, etc, come first. Murderers, homicidal lunatics, terrorists, hijackers, muggers, are to me outlaws and whatever nastiness happens to them as a consequence of their actions is of no concern to me whatsoever.

My total sympathies to this poor stewardess and I hope her physical scars heal, the emotional and mental ones are likely to last far longer unfortunately.

Now Im sure that the resident liberal intellectuals will condemn what I have written and even indulge in their debating society tricks. To them I repeat the words of Rhett Butler in Gone With The Wind. "Frankly, I dont give a damn!"

[Ironguts]

I have just one question - where were the scissors from? - Don't they screen both passengers and their cabin bags before boarding their flights in the Northern Hemisphere/EU - or is this now such a flagrant abuse of their human rights/privacy?

TG, I'd be interested to hear more about the incident in the 'States - sounds like "Natural Justice" in action - got any further details?

[AYLGR]

Your url didn't work, it showed a story about a guy in the floods. I searched the site and found the page here. (http://www.thisisbrightonandhove.co.uk/brighton__hove/news/NEWS11.html)

And what about this .. "Chichester Crown Court heard the 91 passengers were placed in even more danger when the co-pilot had to land the plane alone after the captain sat next to Mason to try and keep him calm."

Dangerous things, those co-pilots!

Bob

[This message has been edited by AYLGR (edited 15 October 2000).]

[Puritan]

AYLGR, I'm not sure what's happened to the link refered to at the top of this page, it did work ?

Ok, instead try this: http://www.thisisbrightonandhove.co.uk/brighton__hove/news/NEWS11.html

Now if you don't see the picture of somebodies neck with cuts on it, then use the search facility (top right corner) on the site it takes you to and look for phrase 'city flyer' (don't forget the space between each word) - I did just that, and it worked fine.

[piloteddy]

Lock the idiot up, stupid T**t!!!
Oh and whats wrong with the co-pilot landing? Damm press!!

[This message has been edited by piloteddy (edited 15 October 2000).]

[Tartan Gannet]

Look for the thread about teenaged PAX not killed by heart attack. Its a long thread, ceased about 7 days ago, lots of heated exchanges between me and various sad liberal bast***s who felt sorry for the dead idiot. I got fed up with their do-gooder bull**** and stopped posting there having stated my case.

[flapsforty]

T Gannet,
Your credibility would improve if you'd stop using abusive terminology for people who do not share your views.
Or maybe you don't care, and just enjoy preaching to the converted? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif
rgrds
f40

[Tartan Gannet]

Flaps Forty. You got it! I dont give an anthropoidal intercourse for do gooders etc. You just ain't my folk!

To others, the silent majority, greetings and best wishes.

TG

[Humesagod]

Well this is my first post on PPrune and I get the feeling I'm not going to be too popular on this thread. I am going to upset some of you here and admit that I am a 'do-gooder'.

If, by making the suggestion that the man appears to have been lacking all of his mental faculties and was therefore less than entirely responsible for his actions I am seen as a 'do-gooder' then so be it.

If you went out tomorrow morning, crashed your car or aircraft, sustained head injuries, and as a result later behaved in an irrational manner and commited a crime, would one suggest that it was reasonable that one should be punished? How can you punish someone that does not know he is doing or has done something wrong?

If you knew he was a pilot who had seen action in say, Vietnam or the Falklands and was suffering from PTSD I doubt there would be quite the 'hang 'em high' attitude amongst you. Thats always the problem though isn't it ? It's okay to be gung ho with justice so long as you aren't the individual involved, don't know him or are in possession of little or no fact regarding the individual in question.

[SID555]

First I am not a 'do gooder'.

Humesagod - could not agree more.

Tartan Gannet - you, believe it or not are just as likely to suffer from mental illness as anyone else. In fact just under 50% of all people will suffer from a diagnosable mental illness at some time in their lives. I am not usually vindictive - but I hope you are one of them because then, and only then, you will understand that attitudes like yours have no place in modern society.

[Devils Advocate]

Now just suppose that I just happened to come around to your place and slit your wifes/kids/dogs throat - whilst the balance of my mind was not quite what it should be. Following your bleeding-heart liberal logic through, this would be ok then ?!

Eg. There's that bloke who bludgeoned the mother and her daughter to death (the other daughter only just survived), then there was that black fella who went in to the school in London with a Machette, then there was the bloke with the gun in Hungerford, and the other one at that school in Dunblaine.
Never mind, they were just mad, so that's alright then !

Just how many of these dangerous bastards are out roaming the community ?

Get a life, nutters should be in the nut house - and they would be too except that MaggieT closed them with cut-backs.

[Unwell_Raptor]

Me too, I'n a do-gooder and proud of it. What do you want - a do-badder?

However, I can't disagree with Dr. Johnson, who said "if a madman with a stick came into the room, I should knock him down first and pity him afterwards".

[This message has been edited by Unwell_Raptor (edited 16 October 2000).]

[flapsforty]

TGannet,
You jump to conclusions. However much you'd like to think that I "ain't your folk", I am in fact! :)
At least when it comes to air rage. I am currently involved in the first civil legal procedures my comp has ever started against an air rager. Because like you, I believe people should be held accountable for their actions. And not let off scott free because there was some wishy-washy reason for them to become upset.

I just don't hold with calling people bad names on pprune when they choose to exercise their right to disagree with you or me.
rgds
f40

[enginefailure]

Tartan Gannet!

We need more peolpe like you!
People with easy solutions for the problems
of our society.

so, come and join us ! You are welcome!

sincerely yours
Gary Lauck

[Humesagod]

None of you has actually answered my question. How can you punish a mind that isn't guilty? If the guy involved has some mental problem then okay, he should perhaps be sent for treatment, but it would be ridiculous to suggest that punishment would have any positive result. By the way, some of you really need to take a look at the definition and theories of liberalism.

[SID555]

enginefailure -

Join who? The Neo-Nazi party? Well I think TG would be welcome with you if that is your organisation. That's the only place where his views would be welcome today.

For the rest of you who are not mad, the fact is that mental illness is a very serious problem in our society and affects far more people than you would be led to believe - including many pilots. Since the subject has been raised, those of you who are interested please read my thread on the subject:

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum52/HTML/000042.html

If TG and enginefailure had their way then we would see vigilante beatings and murders of people with mental health problems. Fortunately their sort are a dying breed. And I state again - I hope that they suffer from mental illness because then they would realise it can happen to anyone. Furthermore I think their views would change on the subject when they were the ones receiving the mob beatings. I take it they would have done the same to Winston Churchill when he was suffering from depression? And many other famous personalites who have suffered as well?

Finally - I am not for one minute suggesting that people with serious mental health problems should be allowed to roam freely in society - of course they should be kept in secure accommodation under lock and key where they are not a threat to society - but as already been said on this thread Mrs T did away with all that.

I say again I am not a do gooder - I am a liberal and proud of it. TG and enginefailure - you are wrong, get over it.

[enginefailure]

Hey sid555, cool down!

next time i will write:

"CAUTION ! The following lines are a joke !"

I'm not a little bit with Tartan,
i just thaught that his contributions
qualify him as a new member for all
those no-brainers like NSDAP/AO or KKK.

I hope, that was clear enough now !!!

cheers
ef

[flapsforty]

Does it really need discusissing that people with a mental illness have a right to protection in civilized society? Most if us would not disagree with that, not even hardliners like TG, I think.

The problem seems to me to be the fact that sometimes a possible mental illness is being used as an excuse for unacceptable behaviour. In these cases, behaviour that potentially or in fact harms others present on the same aircraft. And that in many of these cases, those that caused real danger and physical harm to other people, are let off lightly due their mental problems. Without recieving either treatment or punishment.

And as a footnote: if I have to choose between the well being of one mentally disturbed patient on "my" ac, or the safety of the ac and it's pax and crew, I will choose the latter. Even if that means physically or mentally damaging the air rager in question.
No doubt about it!


------------------
Singularly Simple Person........

[newswatcher]

The original article has been archived:
http://www.thisisbrightonandhove.co.uk/archive/2000/10/14/NEWS80ZM.html

[Tartan Gannet]

A reply to SID 555

SID555

Gut amüsiert es mich nicht nie, wie Liberale bei ihrem illiberalsten sind, wenn jemand ihre gemütlichen Meinungen herausfordert.

Jetzt rufen Sie mir einen Neo Nazi und einen Wunsch geistige Krankheit auf mir. Um den zweiten Punkt zuerst zu nehmen, habe ich Depression in der Vergangenheit gehabt und habe die " dunkle Nacht der Seele " gewußt, aber hat über ihm bekommen. Es war höllisch, aber es brachte mich nicht dazu, Leute zu verprügeln, töten Sie jemanden, zerstören Sie Eigenschaft oder benehmen Sie sich in einer unsozialen Art.

Auf dem ersten Punkt, den ich nicht wünsche, den Staat ein ganzes Rennen und eine Religion in einer methodischsten Art als Hitler und die Nazis vernichten zu sehen, machte zu den Juden. Noch ich will die britische Regierung fremde Länder eindringen sehen, unterjochen Sie ihre Leute, beschlagnahmen Sie ihre Eigenschaft und so weiter Noch wieder habe ich keinen Wunsch, das Staatliche Institut eine Geheime Polizei zu haben, Konzentration zeltet, Folter und solche ähnliche Instrumente von Unterdrückung. Deshalb würde ich scheinen, irgendeine Prüfung zu scheitern, der ein Neo Nazi betrachtet werden sollte.

Ich flehe zum Unterstützen der Rechte, Eigenschaft, Sicherheit und gesunden Seins von anständig schuldig, Gesetz dauernde, ehrliche Bürger. Von starker Bestrafung für gewaltsame Verbrecher, Vergewaltiger, Mörder, Terroristen, sogar die Todesstrafe für absichtlichen Mord. Haft für ihren eigenen Namen sowie das von Gesellschaft gewaltsamer Wahnsinniger wie das man berichtete heute wer, befreite in die Gemeinde, traf sein Auto noch einen Autofahrer bei hoher Geschwindigkeit und tötete so einen unschuldigen Bürger. Ich stimme überein, daß Minderheiten geschützt werden sollten, aber erlaubt nicht, um zur Mehrheit zu diktieren noch setzt bei Vorteil über sie. Meine Idee einer Demokratie ist eine, wo die Regel der Mehrheit vorherrscht.

Deshalb lehne ich Ihren Liberalismus vollständig SID 555 ab. Ich könnte mich wirklich weniger über Sie nicht sorgen oder das, an dem Sie mich denken.

Schließlich, weil Sie mich als einen Neo Nazi betrachten, befestige ich dieses auf Deutsch statt Englisches.


Read, Mark and Inwardly digest!

[flapsforty]

Ich könnte mich wirklich weniger über Sie nicht sorgen oder das, an dem Sie mich denken.
Why the long post if u dont care TG?

Agree with the rest though................

[JP Justice]

There is a Times Law Report on an Air Rage case today, following an appeal.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,21835,00.html

[flapsforty]

Very encouraging to read this JP!
Thanks for the link http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/kiss.gif

[Tartan Gannet]

Three cheers for the Judges, both the original and the appeal court Justices!

I only wish other Judges took so robust a line against malefactors.

As a matter of interest, who paid for this lout's appeal? Probably Legal Aid, that is the poor suffering taxpayer.

[SKYDRIFTER]

Tartan Gannet -

As I've said before, I'm an airline captain with a terrific prejudice against sky-rage.

I'm well aware that passengers such as the deceased CAN be restrained in a civilized manner, with minimal threat or harm to anyone.

My constant question - "Why won't the industry move in that direction?"

However, toward your "rules" I respectfully submit that your group of "decent, law abiding citizens" should not be allowed contain those who constitute a murderous mob.

Hypocrisy at it's finest! Do you claim to be a Christian, also???

Not only did the mob kill the kid, but they were still standing on him when the police came through the door at the gate. They had to be told by the police to get off him.

If that's your definition of "decent, law abiding citizens," you've got a real problem.

I join the rest on these threads as to being fed-up with the nut cases. They ARE dangerous.

However, my common response when a flight attendant tells me we have a distrubed passenger on board is, "Did you serve him [alcohol]?" To date, the answer is a consistent, "Yes."

In a majority of my questionings, the passenger was suspected to be a potential problem prior to boarding.

I've headed off many a disturbed passenger incident by ordering that he/she not be served - it works. My constant plea to flight attendants is, "Just give me an early warning." When they comply with that request, there is no ensuing significant problem. No guarantees, of course.

When a problem appears to be continuing after the alcohol cut-off, I go back and give them a speech about, "We're just concerned for your welfare." The idea that somebody cares seems to be powerful - even when it's a manipulative lie. Results needed; that's all.

The occurence of flipped-out passengers with no background or other plausible explanation is common enough to warrant a NASA study.

There is one case in the U.S. where a former airline employee slipped by security with a .44 and took out a whole plane over California.

Another case where a pilot came close to doing the same on a freighter.

In both cases, the individuals were known to be unstable, but boarded anyway.

In the second case, the nut nearly killed the copilot, who will never fly again. With all that, the flight crew subdued him. No doubt you'll call them stupid for not killing him.

A U.S. Government report illustrates that the FAA is knowingly and miserably failing in their security mission - yet nothing changes.

Further, while it is not advertised, the cockpit doors are designed for pressure relief in a way that they got discovered by accident by the nut cases and have now become a magnet for terrorists.

Where's the FAA with their infamous "emergency authority" now???? They are still getting off grounding pilots and carriers with it. Here's a perfect case for the application of emergency authority.

You want a finger to point - go for it. They are all yours. Not enough courage to do it? I'm not surprised.

I'm all for agressive attention to the sky-rage problem. But just as in accidents themselves, sky rage investigations tell us that the necessary ingredients are present prior to approaching the aircraft - with rare exception.

I'm deeply involved in thre aviation safety issues. What are YOU doing besides prostituting sites such as this for some cheap-shot self-agrandizement?

The expression you were looking for was, "Quite frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn." Or, at least cite it in terms of paraphrase.


Get a psychiatrist; get a life!

[fishtail]

Help is at hand with regard to Air Ragers, a system is currently in production to purge these individuals and to stop them from using this form of transport.

This will save the Airlines time and money whilst ensuring the good citizens get the peace and relaxation they deserve, some help is needed and maybe you can help (Post to: [email protected])

What we are looking for is information on the LAN/WAN structure of Airline/Airport systems, who they are owned by Airline/Airport or Third Party as these LAN/WAN - Intranets need to be accesible to our servers, alternatively the contact details for your IT guy will do..

Failing this it will be down to snail mail technology with the speed of a slug/CAA

All incoming mail will be greatfully received

Do nothing and nothing happens

Cheers !



------------------

[flapsforty]

Fishtail,
Any chance of being a bit less expansive on what & how? Sounds interesting and a worthwhile initiative, but more details would be welcome!
Thanks.

[SKYDRIFTER]

FOR THE LYNCH MOB -


Both sides agree encephalitis led to Alaska Airlines attack

By Kim Curtis
The Associated Press

By Kim Curtis

The Associated Press

SAN FRANCISCO - A hulking passenger who broke into the cockpit of an Alaska Airlines plane and lunged for the controls in March was suffering a rare reaction to encephalitis, lawyers on both sides agreed.

Prosecutors and the attorney for Peter Bradley, 39, were working yesterday on a plea bargain.

Bradley has no memory of the attack, and experts needed weeks to unravel the mystery, according to his attorney, Jerrold Ladar. They concluded that encephalitis - an inflammation of the brain - had made him delirious.

The plane was traveling from Mexico to San Francisco on March 16 when Bradley, returning from a family reunion, began babbling, stripping off his clothes and wandering from seat to seat. He then broke into the cockpit yelling, "I'm going to kill you!" and grabbed for the controls.

The pilot momentarily lost control of the jet as the co-pilot used an ax to fend off Bradley. Passengers tackled him and held him down.

Bradley was charged with committing a violent act likely to endanger an airplane and assaulting a flight crew, offenses that carry up to 20 years in prison each. A trial was scheduled for Oct. 30.

He was freed on bail and returned to his job as a carpenter in Blue Springs, Mo. He has suffered no subsequent outbursts.

Bradley had no alcohol or illegal drugs in his system and no history of psychiatric problems.

He had been suffering from headaches for almost a month, however, and his condition worsened with a lack of sleep and the changing air pressure in the plane, his lawyer said.

Doctors on both sides agreed on the diagnosis, Ladar wrote in court papers.

Assistant U.S. Attorney David Hall said yesterday that the court should find Bradley committed a crime while temporarily insane and not dismiss charges on the grounds of a medical condition.

The judge said he would rule next month on that point. Bradley is expected in court Thursday to give permission in response to the prosecution's request for a psychiatric evaluation.

[Tartan Gannet]

Im sorry for the bloke with encephalitis... BUT! He presented a danger to the other pax and crew and had an armed air marshal been present, in my opinion he would have been in order to restrain him by whatever means necessary especially given that he was yelling "Im going to kill you" and made for the cockpit door . The text says that the pilot lost control of the jet temporarily. Had a crash occurred killing all aboard then Im sure that the relatives would have been conforted to know "oh the perp was temporarily out of control owing to a brain disease, he didnt mean to harm anyone" as their folks would still be every bit as dead! Surprise as it may be to you Skydrifter, Im glad this man was restrained with no real damage to himself or any others on that plane and would feel the case ought to be thrown out of Court as a provable medical condition was the cause.

However, let me give you a couple of analogies. I am walking down the road when an aggressive teenager carrying what I take to be a knife tries to mug me. I consider that I am justified in using whatever force is required and available to me to prevent him and to protect myself and if this results in my having to bang his head off the wall resulting in his demise, so be it. If his corpse is subsequently found to have a toy plastic dagger in its hand, that's tough! A second example. I am in a country where rabies is endemic (or enzootic if you prefer). A dog aproaches with what appears to be foaming spittle in its mouth, I shoot it. Now if it DID have rabies it wasnt its fault, it didn't wish to harm me, but to protect myself and others I had to shoot it. Again, lets say it had only eaten sherbert that some kids had left on the ground, and was free of all infections,I would still consider I was right to shoot it, given the evidence available to me. You have to call it as it happens and your pax with the Brain Disorder would have appeared at first view to be a real and present danger to the aircraft, its crew and passengers. The report says that the F/O had to use an axe to ward him off. Let's say the F/O had actually had to use the axe on the deranged pax and had killed him as a result. To me he would be blameless, having done his duty and protected his passengers, fellow crew and anyone on the ground that the plane could have hit had it crashed. Subsequent autopsy would have revealed the illness of the pax in question but I still say that the F/O would have been in the right given the knowledge available to him in that split second- "Justifiable Homicide"

In the end ,Skydrifter, we have a totally different value system, I believe in "the greatest good for the greatest number" or if your prefer, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one". I think you may be coming from somwhere else. Now no doubt you or others will throw the old debating society cliche' at me "What if it was you with the temporary derangement?" Well, I hope it never happens , but I accept the fact that I could be the victim of a mistaken killing, to me its one of the risks of life, an insignificant one when weighed against the many others we all face during our span.

What is really needed is some form of incap agent, a spray for example to render harmless any pax behaving in such a dangerous manner, or for that matter air ragers who assualt cabin crew and other pax, without causing them any lasting injury. I realise that aerosols used in aircraft can be problematical and other innocent pax could be affected by the spray, but surely science and technology can come up with some solution to this matter, such as the Police pepper spray shot into the perp's eyes as now being used instead of CS gas by UK Police Forces.

BTW Skydrifter, I see from your profile that your are a pilot in Seattle, and as I am not likely to visit the USA I doubt we will ever meet, so be happy that I will not be part of your SLF and I will be equally pleased that you are not in the left hand seat of the airplane I am on. Id rather Capt Ed Toner came out of retirement to fly me if the need arose.

[This message has been edited by Tartan Gannet (edited 23 October 2000).]

[stevel]

Sky Drifter, have you considered your position vis a vis your total incapacitation following an attack when your softly softly approach is met with physical violence.

You might better be advised to encourage the cabin staff to offload at boarding, instead of bringing the problem into the air so that you can demonstrate your counseling skills.

Creating a potential single pilot situation may not be the end of the world (Most FOs can land the aeroplane and cross out a name above them on the seniorty list at the same time)but is it wise.

[SKYDRIFTER]

VIOLENT PAX -

Rest assured that I am not in favor of pampering an obviously dangerous passenger. However, there are less than deadly methods available.

A standard procedure for flight attendants is to identify "able-bodied passengers" to assist with an evacuation. A sky-rage situation is no different.

Consider the possibility that the report of the off-duty policeman on the Southwest is accurate. They are as expert as they come at subduing violent perps.

I've been on the backs of many to screen such potential problems at the gate and found that prevention has been effective. There's nothing new or secret about that.

In too many cases airlines who have wanted to prosecute a sky-rage problem have been stopped at the argument, "You are known to have boarded the questionable passenger. You are also known to have served him/her alcohol." A lot of cases have walked because of that.

If clearly and absolutely necessary, I wouldn't blame anyone for 'dusting' someone such as a terrorist.

However, once a passenger is clearly subdued, there is no excuse for moving onward to the conscious choice of killing.

My crusade is for education, procedures and implements such as straps, ties and cuffs to restore passenger safety. Such have been around for years and proven to work.

A low pressure pepper spray can be made available.

There can be no doubt that there are extremes in which a killing might be inadvertently effected, such as in a case of a passenger 'dusted' with PCP. In cases such as that, I'm quite willing to comment, "Too bad, but it was unavoidable under the circumstances."

However, until it is patently clear that death is necessary, even if inadvertent, I cannot condone the mob mentality, particularly it's encouragement.

As a co-pilot I used to prompt the captain that regardless of what company policy was, who did he want left in charge if something happened in a confrontation. Hence, I've had my share of passenger confrontations as a copilot as well, including a few which nearly got violent. I'm no stranger to the potential of a pilot getting creamed.

The Alaska 259 incident is a prime example. If ever there was an excuse to use a crash-axe, they had it with not even myself questioning it's fatal use. Notice that the guy is still alive. It was as close as any who've survived. A civilized mentality appropriately was employed.

I fail to understand this "Hey, let's kill somebody!" attitude.

If you want to take the Salt Lake issue one step further, imagine the crew or company being held responsible for the excessive force. There are laws are out there which could have sent a few people on the crew to prison.

If you don't want to preserve life for any other reason, how about considering the crews liability under the laws. Only the political winds prevent that from happening. Ask the cops in the Rodney King beating.

With rare exception, restraint is appropriate and enough.

With no other choice available, I promise you, I'll be the first to swing a crash axe. I fully agree that the lives of all on board are the first priority with no exceptions.

Until it is reasonably clear that no other choice is available, I respectfully that civilized standards should prevail.

In an actual circumstance, I'll give the welfare of the passengers the benefit of the doubt over the life of a violent passenger - but not until it's clear that the unenviable choice MUST be made.

[Jackonicko]

TG,

You are a complete clot. An absolute shower.

The pax concerned murdered the 'perp' when he'd already been adequately restrained (bet you feel good using that word, just like Clint in Dirty Barry IV. He's no wet liberal, he'd show these Pruners who take the mick out of you.....).

Yet to question that criminal over-reaction makes one a liberal do-gooder. Well if we were liberal do-gooders, we wouldn't laugh at some-one as pathetically under-endowed in the common sense and humanity departments, would we?

Your tough talk, shooting sherbert-eating dogs and banging teenagers heads against walls gives me a clear mental image of you, and I'm sorry to say that what I picture is an inadequate, sad, pathetic loser.

You yourself said: "We do not need this kind of dangerous person in society. I for one would happily live knowing that one of this type of scum had been eliminated."

Many might think that your own far-right wing views and intemperance might mark you out as dangerous. I certainly think that Society would be better off without your like, but prefer to hope that you could be rehabilitated through education and brotherly love!

[SID555]

Not surprisingly, I agree with everything that Skydrifter has said on this subject.

Mr Gannet - I am sure we are all very impressed with your German but it's been a long time since my GCSE so if you want me to read your reply I suggest you translate it. Also I think you must have cared just a little to have stayed up all night with the German dictionary drafting your post.

Clearly there are situations where force has to be used, but it was what you said first which I and others objected to:

This is why I had a smile when I read about the teenaged pax who went off his rocker on an aircraft over the USA and was given his just deserts by the other PAX, that is he was terminated.

I fail to see what is amusing about a mob beating a mentally ill pax to death (reasonable force?), clearly your sense of humour differs from mine - I am glad that is not the only place where we differ.

[Tartan Gannet]

Jackonicko, I wondered how long it would take you to crawl back out of your lavatory pan? You have confirmed for me why I have such a detestation for the yellow gutter press. I would compare you to the Biblical Onan, but that suggests a sense of purpose!

Contrast your purile playground level of name calling, with the measured and reasoned response of Skydrifter, he has put his case quite sensibly and while I have to say that I have no time for those who endanger the lives of others by their conduct, his suggestions, if the sutuation permits, such as straps, quick action handcuffs, pepper spray would certainly reassure and protect both crew and the other pax. I also endorse his view of airlines being far stricter in allowing already drunk or disturbed pax onto an aircraft. In the end it is the lives and safety of the other pax, the crew and of course the people on the ground (remember Lockerbie) which are paramount.

Jackonicko, I treat your other insults with contempt. I will correct you on a few factual points. I am neither sad nor a loser having an enjoyable job, various hobbies, good friends. Neither am I "right-wing!" indeed in economics I stand to the left of centre, and I am pro abortion and euthanasia, secularist as regards education, against censorship and the imposing of Judeo-Christian sexual morality on consenting adults in private . Only on Law and Order do I take a hard line pro capital and corporal punishment stance. Sorry to confound your stereotype of an ill-educated trailer trash red-neck, I went to Grammar (not spelt "Grammer"), School and got 4 A levels,History, English, Chemistry and Physics, and have qualifications in Electronics. I dont know what paper you write for and I assume it is under a name other than Jackonicko. I dont suppose I read it as I only read the local newspapers in my home town or use Teletex, BBC Radio Four or the Internet for other news. Still, if you care to mention your paper I will gladly avoid purchasing same in error.

Regards to Skydrifter, though I will still entrust my flying to the hands of the "Nigels" of BA. Jackonicko, try a camping holiday on Gruiniard Island!

[Jackonicko]

Tartan,

So angry, so hostile, and after I called you .... a clot. A complete shower. How could I have stooped so low?

So sorry to have confirmed (more of) your infantile prejudices. I don't have Skydrifter's patience or humanity, I'm afraid, and the previous thread taught me that reason is not a tool to use with you. While your banter is getting a good deal better, and while you may have a handful of A-levels (no S-levels? Degree? Post-graduate?) I'm afraid that you've missed the point.

Which is that whatever your academic distinctions, your knee-jerk, inhumane reactions and approval for violent vigilante action marks you out as an emotionally under-developed, insensitive fool. (And I bet your headmaster would be proud of you today, if you went where I think you went.)

Perhaps a loving relationship (with some-one else) would help? (And after your Onan quip, I'd point out that your own hand doesn't really qualify as a proper sexual partner). Were you abandoned as a baby? Help me empathise, because I don't hate you, I just feel genuinely sad for you.

You'd best avoid the Telegraph, Times, Express, Mail, and most UK/US aviation magazines, BTW. Also Radio 4, 5, and World Service. Best stop watching TV, too. And of your local papers, you'd best avoid (well, most of them, I'm afraid, as we're near neighbours). But Teletext is safe, and I believe that there are some ultra-right wing rags which masquerade as papers, published by the BNP and similar organisations. You can be assured that they haven't been sullied by contact with JN!

PS: How about an anger management course? Or you could take up knitting? Perhaps its your diet - if you were to become a vegetarian, perhaps? Just trying to help.

Yours, In brotherly love,

Jacko.

[CrashDive]

FFS guys !

This a forum in which your are meant to 'discuss' medical matters.

Now if you're unable to do that in grown-up manner than please use personal/private emails to indulge your purile point-scoring, off one another - i.e. do not indulge yourselves in here with such tripe ! comprende ?

[Jackonicko]

Couldn't agree more, that's the whole point. Let's deal with it on the basis of it being a medical/psychological/alcohol problem, not one of pure criminality. And let's avoid knee-jerk vigilante responses, too.

TG very wisely doesn't show an E-Mail address, otherwise I'm sure m,any would happily tell him what they thought in terms far less restrained than are uttered here.

[This message has been edited by Jackonicko (edited 29 October 2000).]

[2day-tsingma]

what an awful standard of German!