The Volcano thread - (Merged)

[shogan1977]

I have flight to LHR with United leaving from IAD on Sunday evening 6pm - due in to London after 0600. What are the chances I will actually take off?

[Jarvy]

Very good, BA have a full schedule planed for Sunday out of LHR, and as you are flying with united there should be no problems with aircraft being in the wrong place. Some of tonights flights from NY going into Scotland as their air space should be open by tomorrow morning.

[Rusland 17]

BA have a full schedule planed for Sunday out of LHR...They may have a full schedule planned, but the plans are liable to change at any time. Forecasts suggest that the wind direction may change on Sunday, blowing the ash back over parts of the UK again. Ryanair certainly seems to think that it will be Monday afternoon before it is possible to fly again.

...and as you are flying with united there should be no problems with aircraft being in the wrong place.Why not? United is just as likely to have aircraft stuck right across Europe as any other airline.

Basically, shogan1977, it's impossible to say with any certainty, especially as the volcano is still erupting. We can only watch and hope.

[Big Harvey]

Apologies if this is covered elsewhere, but here goes:

I've been trawling the internet looking for information on whether I have the right to expect the airline to put me up in a hotel while I'm stranded due to a flight cancelled due to the volcanic ash cloud. The only conditions I can find relate to flights departing from EU countries.

Unfortunately I'm currently stuck in a non-EU country (Egypt) waiting for a KLM flight home. The airline has automatically booked me onto a flight in a week's time, and obviously there are heavy financial implications if I have to wait that long.

My travel insurance doesn't appear to cover me because of the reason for the cancellation.

At the moment I can't get hold of KLM by phone in any case, and their Egypt offices are closed until tomorrow. I'm trying to decide whether to sit tight or whether to make a dash for Southern Europe by any means I can, and try to get home by train/bus and ferry from there.

Any sensible advice would be welcome.

[aeroDellboy]

I don't know whether you can expect KLM to pay for a hotel or not. I suspect that because it is not anyones fault, that they probably don't. I sympathise with your plight, and think if I was in your position, I would be looking at trying to get into Europe and driving/train back. Still might have delays at the Channel Tunnel, it seems to be booked solid as do the Calais ferries. Might be better trying one of the ferries from Spain/Southern France something like Santander to Portsmouth? Depends where you can get to.

Good luck...

[aeroDellboy]

Just been on BBC News, Simon Calder says if you are on a return journey with an EU Airline, EU Regulations say that the airline has a duty of care, therefore has to provide accommodation. Think it might have been Regulation 261.

[TSR2]

Well Big Harvey this is how I see your predicament.

KLM cannot operate any flights through no fault of their own therefore I think it highly unlikely that they would stand the cost of 7 nights in a hotel.

You therefore have 2 choices:

1. Take the financial hit on the chin and enjoy as best you can your enforced vacation.

2. Make a dash overland by bus, train and ferry. However, although the cost of doing this maybe offset by a refund on your unused return air ticket, it may not be as easy as it sounds as many hundreds of thousands of other passengers across Europe will be in a similar situation and if you set off right now, it is quite possible that it may take you longer than waiting for the next available flight.

I know which option I would choose.

[Mr A Tis]

My understanding was that the airlines duty of care only starts once you have checked in. Hence airlines reluctance to check people in. However, I would bow to Simon Calders greater knowledge.
To be realistic, the scale of this problem is so great, that I doubt its very practicle for airlines to pick up the tab for so many people. The margins on so many flights are wafer thin to start with. If they were to start shelling out millions of Euros on top of costs of not flying, then they will probably cease to exist.
I think I would hold tight if I could, and await a window of opportunity for a flight. It depends on yr priority of getting back, certainly overland ain't gonna be cheap, comfortable or quick.

[CornishFlyer]

To be honest it doesn't look very good. BA have cancelled all shorthaul until Monday already and the fact that it sounds like the volcano situation is worsening, I wouldn't hold out much hope to be perfectly honest. Even if things got back to normal, there are many crew stuck all over the world who are not able to do their next rostered trips so there may be aircraft and crew shortages even when the ash stops

I hope it does go ahead for you but I wouldn't start making plans or pack your bag just yet :ok:

[MPN11]

On a slightly different angle, Radio 4 "Money Box" has just been discussing rights in respect of Travel Insurance etc. including lost deposits. I guess it will be available to 'Listen Again' on BBC iPlayer later today.

Interestingly, some insurers are NOT invoking exception clauses ["Act of God"], and claims may also be possible under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act if you have paid by credit card.

We're [probably not] flying to the USA this week, and have pre-paid car rental and a non-refundable cattery. It would appear from MoneyBox that our insurer [AXA through LTSB] is one of the ones that will pay up. The phrase used was "... not normally covered but on this occasion will cover ..."

I'll see what next week brings :hmm:

[Rusland 17]

We're [probably not] flying to the USA this week, and have pre-paid car rental and a non-refundable cattery...There's no reason why Tiddles should lose out on her holiday because you can't go on yours... :)

[PAXboy]

BBC: The threat posed by volcanic ash will restrict UK flights until at least 0100 BST on Sunday, air traffic controllers say

If that is the time, then you may well be fine some 29 hours later, but just keep watching the web news of BBC as that will updated very quickly with this crucial situation. BBC NEWS | News Front Page (http://news.bbc.co.uk/)

[Jarvy]

I was going on the info available at that time. BA are changing by the hour as are all the rest.
I still believe that your flight will go as planned, but this is only my opinion!

[PAXboy]

Here is a 'war story' it's rather fun ... BBC News - Man forced to cycle on to ferry (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8627026.stm)

An extract: One man, a British Airways gold card member, was riding a children's bicycle.

If we're not careful, this thread will in Jet Blast in faster than ...

[TightSlot]

Good Morning Folks

For the record I'm trapped in LAX just now, and rescheduled to operate back to the UK on Sunday 17th, landing Monday 18th. I'm going in to the airport daily to help the customer service staff deal with the various passenger issues that are arising - It's not a pretty situation, although people are by and large, dealing with it in a mature and sensible manner.

The real issue when dealing with people (this is where it links in to the thread) is CNN and the Internet. This is now the primary information source for our customers, and the problem is that the information given is not always accurate: Unfortunately, accuracy doesn't matter, the customer perception does. It is becoming difficult to update and brief large numbers of people, when there is always some bright spark who will jump up and tell you that Irish airspace is presently open, or that BA are flying transatlantic into Scotland. Both of those statements may have been true at some stage, but in a fluid situation, they are variables, not constants.

This forum isn't, of course, that group of stranded customers, but Jarvy is the bloke that stands up to tell you that he's just seen on CNN that flight from Russia are now flying to Paris via Helsinki - and it isn't helpful.

The truth is that the OP's question is unanswerable: Anybody that tells you that your flight may or may not operate is simply guessing - Nobody knows!

No offence intended Jarvy - I can appreciate that your comments were made with the best of intentions.

I may be here for some time, so I'll try and feed back anything of interest that occurs. At least I'm in LAX and not Lagos.

[ExXB]

OK, I tried this idea on the Rumour and News forum but it got deleted. (I shouldn't have mentioned that I'm not crew)

Although not all SLF are politicals, many are top-notch pseudo-industry experts and your opinions would be welcome.

No doubt the airline associations in Brussels are all sharpening their pencils trying to figure out what to ask the EC (and through them the individual Member States) to help the airlines get back to business once the ash clears (if ever, but I am the eternal optimist*) So what should AEA, IACA, ELFAA be looking for as 'temporary measures'? Some ideas:


Waive all curfews at EU airports (allowing continuous operations) for a limited period. (Sorry if you live near one of these but Nimby's rights are suspended)
Allow flexibility in crew time (perhaps 10% or even more)
Waive Passenger rights (at least for tickets bought after 14 April)
Impose obligation on any EU hotel, surface transport, whatever to give 100% refunds if pax can't travel. Just like the airlines.
????

What have I missed?

*Except where BA's return to glory is concerned

[10bob]

Its a shame BA hadn't voted to strike this weekend...
:}

[Rusland 17]

Waive Passenger rights (at least for tickets bought after 14 April)
Impose obligation on any EU hotel, surface transport, whatever to give 100% refunds if pax can't travel.You're joking, right..? :hmm:

[PAXboy]

In my personal opinion, the ONLY useful change is to waive curfews for, say, 72 hours. Start at a given point that all can quickly agree on and run it until the Midnight after three full days.

[Haven't a clue]

I was due to fly IoM-LGW Thu 15 when the shutters came down on flights in the northern england airspace. OK, I was then due to fly LHR-HKG the same evening, but a quick review of the situation convinced me my flight would not be going that day. At 1030 I got a text from BA confirming this. Ever the optomist I took a boat from IOM to Liverpool and the train south to Lndon where I now am. After a few "Manage My Booking" changes it became apparent that I was unlikely to fly to HKG before I was due to return. My thanks, incidently, to several posters on this form to links to eg Volanic Ash Advisory pages, and NATS, which helped me keep abreast of the situation.

So now I have cancelled the whole trip, and board the train again tomorrow morning to connect with the ship to take me home.

But I have, while sitting around London, been reviewing my booked flights for the next three months, in the light of a failure of the volcano to cease its eruption, and the speculation that it will continue for a while.

My conclusions are: cancel all longhaul (two trips in addition to the trip I was about to take); book flexible (and refundable) boat/train tickets to back up the trips I and the family are due to make over the next three months (including half term); put my plan to buy a holiday home outside the UK on hold (easy this one, not sure I can really afford it), and lastly book all this years summer holidays in the UK and not abroad.

I hope my approach is not replicated by the average Brit - I live on an island, so we don't have a lot in common,; hey but maybe we do?

But if we do, then the airlines are in for a hard time.

[ExXB]

You're joking, right..?

Actually not. Waiving passenger rights for those that have recently bought tickets - that idea came from an article quoting an insurance company, saying you can't insure against something you know is going to happen. Tell me, what stops me from booking a ticket (if I could) for a BA flight tomorrow. Show up at the airport, be cancelled and insist I be accommodated and wined and dined till the skies cleared? If I timed it right I could even cancel and get all my money back.

Why shouldn't hotels and surface operators be told to make full refunds? That's what the airlines have been told?

Appreciate your comments, anyway:ugh:

[ToweringCu]

Don't think you will be going anywhere by air Shogan. Winds are forecast to be northerly tomorrow and the ash cloud is expected to cover the whole of the UK. (It's going to be worse).

[kgbbristol]

At least I'm in LAX and not Lagos.

Ha ha, I'm not in Lagos either - but I AM stranded in Abuja, with 8 of colleagues. We were all due to fly home this weekend on BA and KLM.

Our aircraft are sitting on the tarmac at ABV.

What's to stop the airlines flying these planes to Spain or Portugal or Italy - or somewhere else in mainland Europe, or even in north Africa - from where we could continue our journey by surface transport?

It's not a flippant question - the airlines have a legal duty (though a very taxing and questionable ethical duty) to repatriate us. Wouldn't this be a good way of clearing the backlog so that normal operations can continue as soon as possible when a full service resumes?

[wiggy]

What's to stop the airlines flying these planes to Spain or Portugal or Italy

One reason might be slots and traffic rights - you can't just pitch up from ABV at Madrid or Lisbon with a Speedbird or KLM callsign and dump a 777/747 load of passengers in their laps...though I'd admit current circumstances are so exceptional it would be nice to think politics and trade restrictions could be ignored for a while.

[Rusland 17]

Just heard from a friend who is on holiday in the States with his family. They were supposed to be flying back from Chicago to Birmingham (BHX) today with KLM, via Amsterdam, but they've been told that there is no chance whatsoever of getting a flight before next weekend...

[PAXboy]

I agree that it is not a flippant question.

If they made all the arrangements to get you in to, say, the Iberian peninsula, then they have to make arrangements to get you out - or dump you where they have no infrastructure and then plan to get the empty a/c back to the UK whenever that might be possible. Can you imagine the amount of manpower and money needed to schedule all those changes for every flight - as opposed to waiting for the cloud to move and then slowly getting an existing schedule back on track? Given that the time of when that will be changes every six hours?

What if they tipped you out in the Schengen region and said 'make your own way to the UK' and some of the pax did not have Schengen Visas?

BBC News - More flight chaos after Iceland volcano eruption (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8627545.stm)
This is timed BST 23:17 Saturday 17th April
Travel delays continue after flight restrictions are extended until 1300 BST on Sunday due to volcanic ash danger.

[wiggy]

What if they tipped you out in the Schengen region and said 'make your own way to the UK' and some of the pax did not have Schengen Visas

Greetings.

I believe exactly this problem has happened at, I think Amsterdam, with pax from India who were meant to be connecting to UK bound Flights getting trapped airside at Schipol........I guess they are still there.

[bhxfan]

Hi SLF with quick question here. Hope this is a suitable place for it.

The current Stansted METAR (2350Z) says VA which I understand indicates Volcanic Ash. I've checked a few other METARs online and I don't see this for any other airports in the UK. Is there anything interesting to be read from this? Perhaps a higher amount of ash settling at Stansted compared to other places? Or is it just a random/cautionary/optional thing?

[SassyPilotsWife]

The world congregates to raise assistance in the form of money, supplies etc. to help those affected by mother nature all the time. Are there any organizations or groups helping any of these stranded pax all over EU ? I know supplies can't arrive by air, but there is ground. But money can be raised to at least feed them and get medical supplies such as medicines to these pax. I would imagine the hospitals are experiencing more traffic. As a person who flies standby and has been " bumped" only overnight at ORD, I can't fathom being in an airport for this long especially for those stuck in small airports with very limited resources.

[Rusland 17]

The world congregates to raise assistance in the form of money, supplies etc. to help those affected by mother nature all the time. Are there any organizations or groups helping any of these stranded pax all over EU? ... money can be raised to at least feed them and get medical supplies such as medicines to these pax.You're equating the inconvenience of being stuck in an airport waiting for a delayed flight with that of losing your home, posessions and loved ones in an earthquake or tsunami?

[SassyPilotsWife]

Not at all. i never equated it, I merely asked a question if there were any organizations assisting these pax. On that same note, I wouldn't simplify this situation as a mere " delayed flight" Neither would those stuck. Yes we can argue that all pax should travel with the unexpected in mind but alot don't for the simple reason of extra baggage charges. However, not everyone has the financial means to not only travel with extra cash but the extra credit for a hotel room, meals and/or possibly a hospital or dr visit to get medicines that they didn't bring extra of i.e. insulin, dilantin, cardiac meds, BP meds. The pax include crew members from all over the world who are going thru all of this and will be expected to fly as soon as this ban is lifted. I for one would want to make sure they are more rested and taken care of than the pax themselves. Trust me, this was in no way an attempt at comparing this with a disaster, but its not over yet either is it.

[Final 3 Greens]

Sassy Pilotswife

Ignore Rusland's negative comments, please.

You make a good point.

I have just helped a young Canadian guy who is stranded, with the wrong type of money.

In this case, my assistance was only to lend him my cellphone to make a call to friends and send a text to others to ask them to collect him.

He is fortunate that he has friends in the North of Cyprus, who can collect him from Larnaca, but nonethless as an inexperienced traveller he was phased and the locals had not assisted hime, unfortunately.

The relief on his face, as he reaslied that he would have assistance soon, was clear to see.

Thise stranded airside are vulnerable and do need assistance.

[Rusland 17]

Not at all. i never equated it, I merely asked a question if there were any organizations assisting these pax...The "organisations" helping these passengers are (or are supposed to be) the airlines themselves. Their legal obligations have not changed simply because the circumstances are extraordinary and unprecedented, although reports do suggest that many airlines are currently ignoring their obligations to their customers. (Though I'm aware that the sheer numbers of people involved make it a logistical impossibility to assist everyone).

I have just helped a young Canadian guy who is stranded, with the wrong type of money.I'm sure we'd all offer help to someone who was stranded or in need of any kind of assistance, F3G. The question posed by the sassy pilot's wife was whether there are any organisations raising money for food and medical supplies, which is an entirely different level of assistance altogether.

[lowcostdolly]

F3G and Rusland please play nicely together guys ;)

sassypilotswife you do raise some valid points here.

Uk airlines (I don't know about the rest) have a duty of care to their pax and crew. They have to provide accomodation/food allowances for delays downroute....for however long they are!!

We all know that some are better than others at this but by now they should all be grasping the nettle on this.

In normal circumstances most airlines will do this outbound as well for unexpected delays. However the airlines are now bending over backwards to keep UK departing pax informed. If you then turn up at the airport despite being told not to I suspect if you can find an airline rep they may not be that sympathetic :oh:

With regard to the crew the CAA lay down minimum standards of accomodation for operating crew and they are pretty good.....even the loco's can't skimp on these. We are also paid flight allowances for being stuck down route although again airlines vary on these but we would get by. It's family/childcare commitments that would become an issue for prolonged unplanned periods away from base especially for crews on short haul.

Rest assured that although some companies would like us to fly the minute we touched down in the UK we cannot do this either. The CAA have strict rules on adequate rest, aclimatisation etc.

[SassyPilotsWife]

Final 3,

Advice taken.

I won't even begin to respond to his latest rubbish. Thanks for helping the guy out. Unfortunately not " all" will respond to help others. They will condemn them for not being " better prepared". How many unaccompanied minors are stuck ? A friend of mine who is also a Paramedic working in UK said there have been pax with medical problems that range from being out of meds to seizures to stroke level hypertension. So easy for those to assume these folks are being taken care of while sitting at home comfortably in front of their PC. My hubby is in the US and scheduled to fly back to UAE Monday night CST. Should be interesting to see how things progress or digress in the next 24 hours.

[SassyPilotsWife]

Lowcostdolly,

Thanks for the information. I too was told this is the rule for EU airliners but I know they have got to be spread extremely thin by now with the amount of pax who are there. Do they still have the same obligation to their pax if the a/c is on US soil ? US based airlines don't have to provide accomodations or food allowances for pax that are stuck in the US. Being in the medical field, I am just curious to know how these airlines are getting meds to people both prescribed and over the counter. Especially meds that they take that are controlled substance. The airline my hubby flies for would cover accomodation but the rest is paid per diem the following month and has a daily limit. It could put a dent in our wallets quick if buying airport/area food for days, possibly longer. One thing I do know about the airline family is that they will help out their fellow crew. I am sure alot of EU based crews at home have taken in other crew members into their homes. Perhaps I should start a thread for those with PPRune access that are stuck to discuss any help they need.

You brought up a very valid point. What about those with childcare issues both as a parent who needs to get home or a child flying. I did bring up the minors traveling ( I would be nuts by now if one of my children were young and flying UM and stranded) I dont care how many airline or security agents were helping them. I would not be there. My children as well as myself have flown standby for years and know what its like to be bumped, but not stranded for days.

[rojakof]

According press Brussels airlines aks EU for rules, which passengers will be on the first flights . (suppose this will ever happen ....)

According rules, refusing the booked passengers for the specific flight and taking the passengers who are already waiting for a few days, then you have to compensate the booked passenger for that day......

Will be a big mess whenever there will be a start up.
Any one an idea which is the fairest way to start-up?

[PENKO]

Booked pax. Always. Why delay today's people to fly last week's? That would just multiply the agony.

[CaptSeeAreEmm]

Well I would expect passengers already booked on a specific flight to be given the seat.

[MathFox]

Sassy, what I know about Schiphol Airport is that they started their emergency plans and brought temporary beds; airport staff is available 24 hours a day (I expect that includes the medical staff), restaurants remain open, showers are available...
Recently immigration started issuing "emergency visa", stuck travellers can get access to their luggage and leave the airport if they so desire. There has been a call for accomodation for stuck travellers, Hoofddorp municipality is coordinating to get people accomodated off-airport.

[FEHERTO]

People booked on the flight are first ones. All others left over from cancelled flights are booked in as the airline has ruled in a Passenger Handling Manual, e.g. gold frequent flyers first and so on.

I hope that airlines, till the backlog is over, will stop with keeping in the C-Class empty seats in the C-Class. I am 1000% sure all C-Class pax will have full understanding.

[PAXboy]

It is the pax booked on that day. I had this when stranded at JFK in August 2003 by a power blackout that affected most of the North East of USA. I was due out on Friday morning and some flights resumed Saturday but I could not get out until the Monday from EWR (same carrier BA).

However, when this is over, flights will not necessarily start at the sched time but simply just when the heck they can get crew and a full load to coincide with a slot!

[SassyPilotsWife]

Math Fox,

Thank you for the update. Its nice to see the wheels spinning in that direction. I am from the US where I worked at a firestation for 10 years and I know if MEM was closed, our doors would be open as well as delivering supplies and even setting up decon tents at the airport just so travelers could get a good shower ( wouldn't offer the scrub down lol ). There are companies in the US that respond with FEMA just to take care of the responders. When I worked Hurricane Katrina this company was there and it was amazing to see how well they took care of us. 3500 responders +1200 truck drivers ( stuck there with nowhere to store refrigerated goods) and we put our laundry in a bag, dropped it off and less than 24 hours later, we had OUR laundry back, even folded ! We had 3 good meals and wonderful portable showers and awesome air con tents with comfortable cots. These pax could sure use that right now!

[PAXboy]

We are in uncharted territory. Not many carriers and airports will have contingency plans to look after pax for the best part of a week. The supplies of water and food will be constrained by the local country and their ability to supply - without advance warning, without formal purchase orders to guarantee payment (local and nattional govts may have to step in to assure suppliers that they will be paid) and many more issues.

As to receiving help, I recall being trapped in JFK by: Northeast Blackout of 2003 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Blackout_of_2003) "The blackout affected an estimated 10 million people in Ontario and 45 million people in eight U.S. states."

Fortunately, I was airside - in fact I was in the coach en route Manhattan / JFK when the power failed on Thursday afternoon - so I could get in an hotel for the first night. The airport had no power (of course) and there was no mobile phone service (of course) so, as soon as I got to the room (still daylight) I had a shower as I knew the water would soon be gone. I rearranged my gear to be ready for nightfall. The hotel were taking physical imprints of credit cards and hoping no one was going to cheat! I saw people using the light of their cell phone displays as torches, so they would have been in more trouble when they wanted to make a call. The hotel payphones were working (powered from the exchange) and long queues but everyone patient.

I could not get a flight out until Monday from EWR (BA did good) and I managed to get back into Manhattan on Friday very late afternoon. As the coach stop is right by Grand Central station, I went in looking for a working cash dispenser and to try and buy food.

Imagine my surprise at being met by Red Cross people who gave me a sandwich pack and a pint bottle of mineral water!! I did not see myself as being in a disaster zone but that was because I had not seen TV to know that 45 million were affected! I could not find a working cash dispenser but found a power point in the station that was on and recharged my cell and laptop. Then found a hotel that had power and they could swipe my AmEx card! I then made phone calls to the UK to rearrange business I had for the Saturday and called the friends I had been staying with.

The next day dispensers were working and I got to New Jersey and friends for two nights, they dropped me at EWR on Monday morning. (I even got the Sunday afternoon on Gunnison beach in great sunshine!) If you want to talk about being prepared for the emergency, I was almost fully prepared. When I was stranded I had the following in my back pack:
Sandwich and chocolate
bottle of water
torch with good battery
cell phone fully charged and spare battery fully chargedAlso, as mentioned, I had my suitcase so had all my stuff. BUT, in anticipation of a smooth trip out I had used almost all of my dollars. Since I did not expect to return to the USA in the immediate future I had deliberately run them down. When their is no electricity - Cash is King!!! The coach to Manhattan only ever takes cash anyway so I was lucky to be able to scrape the $15 together but had to tramp the Manhattan streets to find a dispenser that was both working and would accept my UK plastic. Now, I always have a good amount of cash in my pocket - along with the other things.

The folks this week are lucky that they can use plastic to pay for everything, although airport cash dispenser will have run out quickly. If I had been trapped, I would like to think that I would have been at the top of the cash queue to get at least 100 of the local currency. Then you can get a taxi and (in some countries) bribe locals.

My AmEx Platinum insurance paid out the maximum that the policy stated without quibble (hence, with the hotel that said 'That will do nicely' my continuing support for AmEx) I was still out of pocket but I was safe and that is all that matters. I was VERY lucky but still not prepared enough

[Big Harvey]

A big thank you to all who replied to my post and offered help and advice.

We've decided to sit tight for the time being, but might bite the bullet and head to Southern Europe for the long haul home if there's no forecast of an improvement in time for the flight KLM has booked us on for Saturday.

As I'm a bit of cheapskate we were already staying in a budget hostel that costs next to nothing, and food prices here in downtown Cairo are hardly going to break the bank. One way or another we'll be OK.

[lowcostdolly]

sassy, I don't know what rights you have if you are travelling on a US carrier in terms of reimbursement etc.

As for being on US soil I can only speak from experience on this. A few years ago me and my daughter were delayed for nearly 24 hours in Orlando as the VS flight to LGW had a technical issue.

We were put up in that nice atrium hotel at MCO airport and very well looked after by Virgin. I don't know if this was because I was travelling on a G reg aircraft, had an ABTA booking etc but we seemed to have the same rights even though we were the other side of the pond.

With regard to medication I understand your concerns being a registered nurse. All I know on this is that most major airports have some sort of medical facility with access to a Doctor who can prescribe medication. If you are in the resort the company rep/hotel management will be able to recomend a Doctor/pharmacist.

In the EU the cost of these I think would be covered by the E111 regs. Outside of here I'm not sure what insurance would cover for a pre-existing condition.

For those travelling without insurance......:eek:! I guess you would probably have to bear the cost yourself.

[Torchwood]

Firstly as a newbie SLF, many thanks to this forum for providing a darned sight more information and intelligent comment on this crisis than anywhere on the MSM. Especially to the pilots on Rumours and News.

Like many others I am stranded, in this case in India. I am a lot better off than most, on business, in a decent hotel. Rebooking after a cancelled Saturday flight: Thursday, and that was the last seat - in First ( I will wing it with company management somehow). If Mt Unpronounceable is still blowing, and the winds still perverse, then the next available is the week after - and that is at the front of the plane. One is already hearing horror stories of those at the back not being able to get rebookings until into May.

The current system - honour existing reservations, for legal as well as computer/communication reasons, and fit in the victims of cancellations in any spare seats, might work for a 1-2 day max local delay because of snow, fog etc. Not however on this unprecedented scale. In addition because of the financial situation of the airlines, many have cut back flights to maintain their loadings, and there is little spare margin.

Humanitarian as well as economic considerations dictate that the backlog should be cleared first, in date order, and existing bookings told that they are subject to a delay of a few days - and a way round the legal issues found. Otherwise we have a major problem which could take a month to clear. Unless those mothballed planes are recalled to clear the backlog on special flights? cannot see it somehow.

[MPN11]

Hi, Torchwood - and welcome to the 3rd Division ... the SLF Threads! :ok:

Yup, R&M is awash with people with big egos and salaries slagging each other off, and not actually contributing a great deal to the sum of human knowledge

Good luck on getting home ... an infinitely worse situation than ours, where we're at home and NOT going on a long holiday.

[Anansis]

Ryanair are now reporting on their website that they will not resume flights until at least Wednesday at 13.00.

News : Flight Cancelations Extended to 1300hrs Wed 21 Apr (http://www.ryanair.com/en/news/flight-cancelations-extended-to-1300hrs-wed-21-apr)

I find it odd that while the likes of KLM, Lufthansa et all are spitting their dummies out over the continued restrictions, the man who usually shouts the loudest (MOL) seems to be gritting his teeth and bearing it. Why I wonder? Are they maybe hoping to ride things out while one or two other airlines go bust?

[davidjohnson6]

Anansis - if MOL right now was making a lot of noise about getting aircraft back in the air, he would be much more vulnerable to the perception of putting profits before safety, compared to airlines with a more "caring" image, at least in the eyes of Joe Public.

[PAXboy]

AnansisI find it odd that while the likes of KLM, Lufthansa et all are spitting their dummies out over the continued restrictions, the man who usually shouts the loudest (MOL) seems to be gritting his teeth and bearing it. Why I wonder? Are they maybe hoping to ride things out while one or two other airlines go bust?Am I correct in recalling that FR pay for their a/c by the operational hour? If so, then it is not costing him as much as folks who are paying for their a/c 24x365. I sit to be corrected.

Torchwood Welcome aboard our (mostly) friendly cabin where we easily embrace everyone from First to stowaways ... you used the word of the event unprecedented. As we can see, the accountants are now getting very fidgety and the whole world is beginning to see what it will be like when the oil runs out. :E

[Anansis]

Paxboy:

If this thread is anything to go by then yes; http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/412427-ryanair-mass-layoff-2.html. Furthermore, as many as half of FR pilots are Brookfield subcontractors, meaning that when they are paid nothing whatsoever when they are not flying. It seems that it might be cheaper for FR to keep the planes on the ground for a while than it is to fly them.

I think Captainplaystation raises a very interesting point in the above thread;

Okay all you cynics :oh: what is your take on MOL cancelling everything except Southern European domestic and Southern European originating Southbound flights till 1300 on Wed 21st ,even as Eurocontrol are making half promises that they expect 50% of flights to operate tomorrow , with airspace being opened all the time.

Official line "to give our passengers as much opportunity to apply for refunds http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif Yeah right ! and make rebookings" Ah he does have a heart after all.

It seems they mean it too, of 18 parked airframes at GRO, where normally one would find 10, more than half of them had engines wrapped in big polythene bags (the lo-cost version of these nice red Boeing engine covers) with static/pitots also securely put to bed, with some cobbled together masking tape/polythene condom, by 16L.
Seems a bit little bit OTT (since I haven't seen a whiff of falling ash this far South) , if one was truly proposing to start flying all again as soon as Wed ? ? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif Guess parking is cheap (read free) in GRO.

Hmnn, "I have a cunning plan melord"
"Yes MOL/Baldrick pray tell me http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif "



Plus, I suppose they will have plenty of empty airframes to wet lease to other airlines help clear the backlog (yes I am a cynic!).

If any of the above is true (time will tell) then FR are pushing the 'beyond the control of the airlines' exemptions under Art 261 and the EU Air Passenger Charter to their very limits. Can an airline justify cancelling a flight on the grounds of 'act of God' when it could have technically operated it? I'm sure we will see a legal challenge or two over tne next few months.

I await the backlash...

[PAXboy]

An Icelandic friend of mine sent me a link to local English language news and, on the web site is a company advertising:
Helicopter Volcano Tours
Enjoy the Eruption in Full View
A Once In A Lifetime Experience


Let us hope it is once in a lifetime, now I only have to get to Iceland ...

[Machers1]

My Son and his new wife having just got married in the US are now stranded. Opodo say there is nothing they or BA can do given the unusual nature of the problem. Opodo did rebook them on the same flight 9 days later, 26th April.

They have no money to speak of and I have had to pay for their hotel and food etc. If I weren't well into my overdraft i wouldn't mind so much. Who if anyone is liable to give them assistance? Opodo, BA.

Their insurance policy seems to prelude them from compensation

I know sounds a bit like a consumer question but I would appreciate any advice.

[ExXB]

I know sounds a bit like a consumer question but I would appreciate any advice.Regulation 261/2004 requires BA to provide 'care' in the event of a cancellation, regardless of the reason. So I would suggest your son keep all receipts for any expense for food and lodging and once he returns submit them for reimbursement. Save yourself some time, mention the Regulation from the get-go. You can find a copy of it by googling.

However, if fails to make any sense to me why the airline should be responsible for your son's costs in these circumstances. It would make as much sense for you to sue the Iceland government, (for sending ash) or the European Parliament (for writing stupid rules).

[PAXboy]

Machers1 Welcome aboard. I suggest that all bets are off. Keep all the paperwork and expect a long wait. The sums are so extreme and the circumstances so uncharted that everyone will claim from everyone else and no one will want (or be able) to pay. The claims will run on for a year, at least. Expect carriers, insurance companies and others to go bankrupt.

This may sound harsh but, may I invite you and yours to be glad that you are alive and safe and in a country with electricity and running water. Yes, you may lose money and be hideously inconvenienced (a member of my extended family is trapped in Italy and is due to be married this Saturday in Cape Town) but you have your health.

[FiveSevenAlpha]

Our experience.....

My wife, son and I are stranded in the USA - when I called the BA helpline yesterday, I got a recorded message saying that waiting time was 299 minutes (needless to say, I hung up). I finally got through last night (the holding time was a far more reasonable 76 minutes....)

I was initially offered a rebooking on the 29th, despite the fact that ba.com was offering availability on the 25th. When I mentioned this, I was told "oh, sorry, I hadn't noticed. I'm not that familiar with flights from (that particular airport) and I've mainly been booking flights from LAX and New York." We were then booked onto the flight on the 25th. I wasn't asked if we needed any help, but that would have been irrelevant in any case - happily we're staying with relatives.

Okay, there were a few hiccups, but I'm pretty happy with the way I was treated.

57A

[pj67coll]

My wife and I are booked BA PHX to LHR June 18th returning July 04th. Flights 288 and 289 for a combined, vacation, delayed honeymoon and family reunion. We are not able to change this booking for various reasons as too many things had to fall into place for us to visit England at this time.

I'm really worried about losing out on our trip and not even being re-imbursed as we have already bought our tickets. But I have to say as nervous as I am about that it can't be nearly as bad as the situation of so many stranded around the globe at present. I really hope those affected are able to get a resolution to their predicament before that becomes a real crisis as it might in some instances.

We've only been flying airilners with turbofans for what forty years? That's nothing on a geological time scale.

- Peter.

[lowcostdolly]

Machers1 Just out of interest has your son contacted British Airways directly re his predicament? You mention he has gone through Opodo and is relying on them it seems to communicate with BA.

BA do have a duty of care to all of their customers stranded in terms of accomodation and food. To my knowledge they have not shirked this in any way. However if they do not know they cannot help and I wonder what Opodo has actually done to communicate other than rebooking the flight :hmm:

Contact BA directly. If they have no joy (which I would be surprised at) then the British Consulate is always available to help brits abroad in financial/humanitarian need.

Paxboy is right in his post but you do have to be able to afford the amenities the first world provides at the time. Your son may be at his limit on his credit cards......

[MPN11]

We have just had to cnx our USA holiday [due to start travelling with BA today at 1315].

So ... we started cancelling all the peripherals, including our pre-paid car rental through Virgin Holidays. Called their call centre, where they had a long pre-recorded message - and then the line was answered almost immediately. :eek:

Their normal cancellation charges are:
Day of Departure - 100% cancellation fee.
1-14 days before - 90% cancellation fee.
etc etc.

The helpful lady went and checked with someone else, and then advised us that we would get a 100% refund in a couple of weeks 'due to the exceptional circumstances" :ok:

It would seem that some organisations are taking a very customer-oriented position at the moment.

[shogan1977]

How likely is it that continued volcanic activity in Iceland will disrupt air travel throughout the summer?

[Hartington]

If I knew the answer to that I could make my fortune.

[fincastle84]

Phew, at long last the CAA have been forced to get off their civil service a£ses & make a decision based on commercial common sense.

Hopefully there will be a sorting out of their hierarchy sooner rather than later. Maybe we'll also get a change of government.

[pj67coll]

It is practically impossible to predict the futrure behaviour of a volcano such as this in detail. Once an eruption starts we simply have to wait it out. Some possible guesses about the futrure can be gleaned from past behavior and in the case of this volcano, and the neighboring Katla, that past history is cause for concern.

- Peter.

[PAXboy]

Friends of mine got out from LAX to LHR on BA on Tuesday, so some stuff is moving. Gonna be a long, long time to sort this out.

I see that, now that there is good news to announce, the politicians are climbing on the band wagon. There was an announcement by the Transport Secretary and others. Blah. Blah. Blah.

[rsuggitt]

As long as the volcano is still erupting, there will be ash somewhere in the atmosphere.

[ToweringCu]

So when did you get back from IAD?

[Machers1]

Thanks for all you help guys, it was very much appreciated. My son has not contacted BA directly but I am sure he will on his return. I was able to increase my over draft so he and his new wife should be OK now.

I am grateful that they are OK and in the US. I feel really sorry for those people with kids or special needs that are stranded. Just one quick rant. these people have been abandoned by the British Government, the EU and the Airlines. Those stranded do not generally have the ability to rescue themselves and rely on those who take their money or votes in the good times to come to their aid.

Learn you lesson well folks, remember who did what when you needed their help. As for Mr O'leary from Ryanair who said of those who were stranded that it was tough, I wonder if he would have stood at Calais and made those comments. I look forward to bumping into him some day in Dublin Airport. Thanks Again

[DJFish]

Well I'm still stranded and hoping to get home tomorrow and have to comment on a few of those points.

Why people with children?
I was at SFO earlier today and the staff there were excellent!
They were operating a fair and equitable standby system that got as many people as possible in the air, some people with kids got to leave, some got to stay, There have been so many people using any excuse to jump the queue, be it kids, medical conditions, special circumstances, bribes.....
I met several families with (extremely well behaved and polite kids) and they had the same rights to repatriation as the rest of us, no more, no less.

UK PLC have been superb locally in San Fran. with net access, phone calls, tea and biccies, support, advice and emergency repatriations, just because the idiots at the top are using this to their own advantage, don't for a second forget the guys locally who are working their butts off to help us all get home.

My airline have been less helpful than they could but my travel agent (Trailfinders) have been excellent in supporting us while were here.

I do agree with the last point, I will be remembering who were exeptional and will be writing some letters when I (eventually) get home.

Happy Landings
Dave

[bar none]

The difference in attitudes to stranded people is becoming evident.
Go onto the Orlando Airport website and click on the section offering help to stranded Europeans. There you will find many offers of cheap accomodation, food, attractions etc all designed to make the enforced stay as bearable as possible.
Contrast that with the European attitude of seizing the opportunity to rip off everybody with sky high prices for everything.
Ten out of ten to the Americans !

[PAXboy]

Also, trying to help a friend stuck in Northern Italy at the start of the week, I was checking the websites of all the airports in her area, down to Rome and then to other intermediate points in Europe that might assist with a dog-leg journey home ...

NONE of the web sites had ANY information about the ash, or closures or advice. They just had the 'canx' notices on the display board relay. The UK airport websites - had special first pages with information and numbers. Not saying all continental European airports but all the ones in Italy, Spain and Portugal that I looked at.

[Winch-control]

Courtesy of todays Telegraph...

I see that America has declared war on Iceland. Apparently they are accusing them of harbouring a “weapon of ash eruption”.

It was the last wish of the Icelandic economy that its ashes be spread over Europe.

Iceland goes bankrupt, then it manages to set itself on fire. This has insurance scam written all over it.

Iceland, we wanted your cash, not your ash.

Waiter, there's volcanic ash in my soup. I know, it's a no-fly zone.

Richard Curtis is working on a new rom-com about people stuck in an airport who fall in love. The working title is "Lava Actually".

I came out my house yesterday and was hit on the head by a bag of frozen sausages, a chocolate gateau and some fish fingers. I realised it must be the fallout from Iceland.

Volcano in Iceland. What next Earthquake in Asda?

Woke this morning to find every surface in the house covered in a layer of dust and a foul stench of sulphur in the air. No change, I’ve been married to that bone-idle slob for 20 years.

laugh in the face of adversity:ok:

[jackieofalltrades]

Contrast that with the European attitude of seizing the opportunity to rip off everybody with sky high prices for everything.


So very true. It's disgusting how so many firms, be they hotels, car rentals, airlines, are profiteering to squeeze as much money as possible out of Joe Public's wallet. I need to get across the pond to visit relatives, but for a seat which is typically £400-550, I'm now being quoted anywhere from £1800-£3500 for the same seat.
I'm not prepared to pay such exorbitant prices. It's very frustrating to think that the airlines in their greed are more inclined to fly with empty seats, than sell them at a fair fare and ensure the planes are all full for each trip.

[Basil]

Winch-control,

My favourite from a reader comment was:

What comes from Iceland and causes chaos at UK airports?

Bjork

and:

As Eyjafjallajokull erupts over Fimmvörduháls, spare a thought for dyslexics everywhere wishing it had been Etna.


Some, from Iceland were less droll:

Want to ask the British people an apology for any inconvenience we have caused, first we take your savings and now we mud all over you with ash! I know for sure that there is a rag collection in progress and every Icelander is making contribution! You will get them soon, wet in your face.

and:

This tells more about the Brits then Icelanders in my opinion. Only thing they are good for is to bully and cry about them selfs. self-centered.
Don't forget there are farmers that have lost there hope ,dreams and hole livelihood in this.


Clearly not aware of all the scrapped British trawlers then :*

[MathFox]

Contrast that with the European attitude of seizing the opportunity to rip off everybody with sky high prices for everything.
KLM publicly stated that it is their goal to have all stranded passengers back home before the end of the month... asking people to contact their "coordination team" if they are not booked on flights leaving this weekend.

[jackieofalltrades]

KLM publicly stated that it is their goal to have all stranded passengers back home before the end of the month

Does this statement by KLM also mention that they intend to fleece stranded passengers for every Euro they have left?

[traymat]

Stranded in Orlando with Virgin, was due to depart on the 21st, first available flight, 14th of May!!! Managed to get a flight from New York on the 4th of May. Travel insurance with AA is a joke, read through the small print and will not be able to claim anything.

On this side of the pond, we are being offered free entrance to Disney, Sea World etc. Just show our boarding cards and in we go. We are being labeled as the Stranded. Also large discounts at hotels and restaurants, opposite what i understand is happening in Euroland.

Back to reimbursed meals, fried everything and gallons of soda.

[MathFox]

Does this statement by KLM also mention that they intend to fleece stranded passengers for every Euro they have left?
What I have heard is that KLM is intending to fulfil their part of the transportation contract without additional payment. They refused to say that all hotel and meal costs would be reimbursed and pressure the government/EU for compensation.

[Sultan Ismail]

I was on the last flight from Singapore to Europe on Friday 16th April for a long weekend in Zurich. At Changi the flights to London, Copenhagen Amsterdam, Moscow and Houston were all cancelled, only Athens and Zurich flew that night.

Didn't give it much thought until Monday evening when I realised my return flight on Tuesday was not going to happen as the inbound flight was cancelled out of Singapore. Next morning down to the SQ city office in Zurich, being first in the queue at 9am opening.

Good news, all flights are cancelled until further notice but as an inbound traveller I was entitled to hotel accomodation and refuelling until I could be repatriated. No big deal they sent me off to the Crowne Plaza in Zurich where I was given a room and meal vouchers for breakfast lunch and dinner. I might add that I am an economy class passenger who bought a ticket 10 days earlier over the internet.

The food quality was excellent and the room, well it was the Crowne Plaza. Later that day I returned to the SQ city office for an update and was given a confirmed booking for Monday 26th April, but please stay in touch.

Wednesday morning I again pitched up at the office where I received the news that I may be on the Thursday flight back to Singapore. They had my 'phone number and email address and would confirm. About an hour later whilst riding the tram back to the hotel I picked up a call from the SQ office to confirm I would leave on Thursday.

I am pleased to report that after a 12.20pm departure from Kloten Airport we landed ahead of schedule at 5.40am in Changi. A short while later I was on the shuttle to Kuala Lumpur and back home.

Some folks have suffered, some are still suffering, but for some, well there is a god.

[The SSK]

Bit late in the day but a couple of points in relation to earlier discussions.

Regulation 261 refers to all flights out of EU airports, and flights by EU carriers into EU airports.

Re priorities for repatriation, I believe a trick was missed. As well as care and assistance, the EU rules require financial compensation (€600 for longhaul) to be paid for bumped passengers. If airlines could have received assurances from their governments that these sums would be reimbursed, they could have rung around their locally booked passengers on the resumed flights asking if they would voluntarily delay their journey by a day or two in return for the statutory compensation. I'm sure very many of them would have been very happy to take the money and give up their seat.

[ExXB]

Dear Mr. SSK

Regulation 261 does indeed provide for cash compensation for 'bumped' passengers, meaning those involuntarily denied boarding because the flight has been oversold. Passengers who voluntarily give up their seats are not entitled to this payment.

Regards

[RJ100]

A quick comment in EU261/2004.

Does the paragragh copied from the document allow the airlines to avoid paying any cost or compensation? As M. O'leary was claiming.............



(14)
As under the Montreal Convention, obligations on operating
air carriers should be limited or excluded in cases
where an event has been caused by extraordinary
circumstances which could not have been avoided even
if all reasonable measures had been taken. Such circumstances
may, in particular, occur in cases of political
instability, meteorological conditions incompatible with
the operation of the flight concerned, security risks,
unexpected flight safety shortcomings and strikes that
affect the operation of an operating air carrier.



(15) Extraordinary circumstances should be deemed to exist
where the impact of an air traffic management decision
in relation to a particular aircraft on a particular day
gives rise to a long delay, an overnight delay, or the
cancellation of one or more flights by that aircraft, even
though all reasonable measures had been taken by the
air carrier concerned to avoid the delays or cancellations.

RJ.

[candoo]

Getting a bit crazy now.

Due to fly to Glasgow on Tuesday, Dusseldorf the following week.

Am completely unable to plan anything at the minute, it amazes me how dependent on air travel I, and others, have become!

A mere 14 years ago I was bamboozled by Telex messaging - you know those crappy printed out things that almost needed an "Enigma" expert to translate.

[lazycat]

Hi i dont post very often but this just happened to me.

Just got back from BHX. Turned up at 4.30 for the Flybe flight to CDG at 17.40 only to be told it was cancelled due to the ash cloud. However the 17.25 Air France flight was due to leave as scheduled, we were asked if we wanted to rebook onto it. :confused:
Had checked the website 45mins before and it said nearly all Flybe flights were operating normally, no mention of the birmigham, Paris route. Just checked again and again no mention of problems on this route. I know the situation is fluid but this just didnt seem right, any else know anything about this?

[Alsacienne]

MIght it have been operating in a W rotation and therefore unable to get back to BHX to take you?

[Pohutu]

RJ100


A quick comment in EU261/2004.

Does the paragragh copied from the document allow the airlines to avoid paying any cost or compensation? As M. O'leary was claiming.............

Quote:

(14)
As under the Montreal Convention, obligations on operating

air carriers should be limited or excluded in cases

where an event has been caused by extraordinary
circumstances which could not have been avoided even
if all reasonable measures had been taken. Such circumstances
may, in particular, occur in cases of political
instability, meteorological conditions incompatible with
the operation of the flight concerned, security risks,
unexpected flight safety shortcomings and strikes that
affect the operation of an operating air carrier.







This is a good question, but I believe that the answer is no. My understanding is that the wording you've quoted prevents passengers from claiming compensation under the Montreal convention, but the EU reg. provides a completely new, separate right to compensation. Effectively, the Convention sets out the maximum restrictions that airlines can place on their liability. They are free to include more generous terms within their contract with passengers (Art. 25). The EU reg. simpy applies an additional set of restrictions which apply to flights which fall within its scope (flights starting and/or ending in the EU).

In any event, if there were a conflict between the two provisions, the EU reg. would prevail, since it was introduced in 2004, whilst the Convention was introduced into UK law by Statutory Instrument in 2002. Anything in the Statutory Instrument which conflicted with the Regulation would be impliedly repealed by the later legislation.

Pohutu

[lazycat]

They told us the aircraft was there. I also checked the aeroport de paris website and that was the only flight to cdg cancelled yesterday all afternoon and evening from Birmingham and Heathrow. :confused:

So did all those other flights risk flying through potentially dangerous levels of volcanic ash or are FLYBE using the ash cloud as an excuse for some other reason that the flight was cancelled?

Of course flights get cancelled for many reasons but i dont like being treated like an idiot and lied to IF that is what has happened.

[ExXB]

Does the paragragh copied from the document allow the airlines to avoid paying any cost or compensation? As M. O'leary was claiming

Actually no. These paragraphs are in the 'preamble' to the Regulation and are intended to explain why the Regulation is necessary and why certain terms and conditions have been included. The preamble is not part of the Regulation, although the courts have used their text in various analysis of how this extremely poorly written Regulation is to be interpreted.

Regretfully the text of 261/2004 is clear in respect that airlines must provide assistance in the way of food, lodging, communications in every case regardless of the reason without regard to such exceptional circumstances as we saw with the ash.

National governments are now taking the easy way out, making airlines - including non-EU airlines, responsible for taking care of their citizens. There has been some mumbling about state aid for the airlines, but I'll be long retired before we see any EU government come up with the cash - that is unless an EU carrier is about to cease operations.

[Anansis]

Ryanair have now been fined by the Italian government for their filure to help passengers.

BBC News - Italy fines Ryanair over volcano ash 'failings' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8684683.stm)

Good to see airlines being held to account for their failure to meet their legal obligation. Also interesting that Ryanair haven't commented on or challenged the ruling.

[MPN11]

My sympathy for Mr O'Leary knows no bounds - as I have none.

His initial dismissive attitude to his 'duty of care' was outrageous.

It will never affect me personally, as I would never EVER fly with his airline under any circumstances whatsoever. And I do genuinely mean that.

[al446]

I'm with you on that one although never is a largish word to use. But things would have to be very very desperate for me to put one single penny in their coffers.

[MPN11]

I take your point, but [a] I'm not in the business of doing 'desperate', and [b] he doesn't fly where I need to go ;)

I'll stick to my never! Ever!!

[Nicholas49]

Well that's a pity, because he does fly where a lot of people need to go.