Low Vis Ops DXB

[Short Approach?]

Low Vis in DXB is a medieval disgrace. After vectors from BUB to DES for a 35 MIN hold, it was 130 NM's from DES to 30R this morning.

For sure the most ridiculous low vis ops I have ever encountered in a airport that strives to accommodate more than 800 ops a day.

How emirates can live with this is way beyond me.

Off my chest, thx! :ok:

[BlueSkye]

Your boss is also the boss of Dubai DCA. So speak to him about it.

[donpizmeov]

Too right, he may be able to fix those chairs in the terminal, get the taxiway widened, but we would need to talk to the head cheese of the GCAA (and he aint it) to get the procedures changed.

the Don

[A300Man]

Aha. That perhaps explains why I saw a cluster of EK tails at AUH this morning when I was attending a meeting nearby. I thought it strange at the time, having left my home adjacent to DXB airport two hours previously in lovely clear conditions, and found it slightly "misty" around AUH airport which had - I assume - handled these diversions from DXB. IIRC, they were all 773's. (Unless EK and EY are now sharing fleets?)

[gbax]

This not intended as a flippant comment, how many days a year does Dubai have that are considered low vis?

[BlueSkye]

Between ten and fifteen days a year, maybe. And The Boss is on the board of the GCAA.

[puff m'call]

In their defence I have to say...........

Passing 10,000ft they said it's now 30R LVO's in force. Radar hdg upwind, a 180 deg turn downwind and a turn onto finals, a few mins later a bump and we were home, well when I say home, back in this dump. :yuk:

So all in all not too bad. from my point of view that is.:D

[Guy D'ageradar]

Similar discussion held in the radar room yesterday - it's not because WE don't want to do it any tighter but rather we are not allowed to - regs say the gap must be 15nm (in some instances 20nm) with 2nd at 180knots by 20nm final and 160knots by 15nm to allow a dep in between!

Only so much you can do with that.

[harry the cod]

Puff

Knowing how you used to grease them on in the VC-10, i'm sure the 'bump' was benign. ;)

Harry

[GlueBall]

Guy D'ageradar . . . thanks for clarifying the LOV procedures.

[Big Buddha]

Thanks Guy, but I think the problem is not the spacing, rather the fact that we are given an approach time and then not given a standard approach distance.

The normal distance from Bubin to 30R being approx. 40nm. Vectors on this morning were giving approx 100 track miles from the hold. We landed about 30mins after leaving the hold.

What we would prefer, me anyway, is to be left in the hold, given a realistic approach time which is followed by a sensible/regular approach.

Leave us in the hold for another turn but give us something that we, and the FMCs. recognize as a track to land.

Cheers

[Capt Groper]

Stay in the hold, descent at an economical VS clean, and be taken off one at a time (allowing for the seperation 15 - 20nm) for a normal int of the ILS. Save a lot of chatter on freq, hdgs, alt, spd etc, unless this is used as practice training for the new ATC controllers.:ok:

[Fart Master]

Good points; why on earth are we vectored everywhere when we can just be stacked and fed into the approach sequence:confused:

[Guy D'ageradar]

Big Buddha, Jimal Fixit, Capt Groper, Fart Master etc.

Please believe me when I say that we all agree with you!! It would be a hell of a lot simpler for us, too.

Each and every approach controller here will tell you that the biggest single improvement in flow control into this place would be to give us the bottom few levels in the holds and let us pull the traffic out as necessary. Unfortunately, we can't because the guys down the road won't have it! (Not, I hasten to add, the operational ones).

Unless and until the lunatics give up control of the asylum, don't hold your breath. :ugh:

[ATCO1969]

In response to Fart (&) Captain above, your comments clearly show that you have very little idea of what ATC is (...descent at an economical VS clean...), and even less of an idea of what ATC is in this part of the world!

Your approach plates will show you what the Holding Levels are. These levels (A100 - F250 for BUBIN and DESDI) are religiously enforced. Do the math. When 20nm is required on final app, and 40 nm's is the "normal distance" (according to Buddha), Dubai APP can take 2 on frequency, from the east for RWY 30. Assuming you pilots want to "descent at an economical VS clean", VERY quickly the stacks are full.

Enter other stacks - RASKO (A090 - A130) for eg. That's only 5 airplanes. That's even less if (again) one wants to "descent at an economical VS clean".

The picture I'm trying to draw for you drivers is that the UAE airspace is TINY with zero room for bending procedures (as ATC's do all over the world). I work my arse off at maintaining safety and I WILL get done in for bending the smallest procedure, even after the required coordination, that's just the way it is.

Dubai APP has no choice but to accept and vector traffic all over their CTA (they are not allowed to hold). All possible available space is required.

I urge you to call the centre and arrange for a visit. Every pilot I've ever shown around has left with a different understanding.

'69

[pool]

Guy and ATCO

You have our sympathy and rest assured we have similarly qualified lunatics running our luney bin ....

It is not to criticise your work, it is to improve ours and yours that we speak up.

We know about the restrictions and the missing space. But its us up there having to deal with evaporating booze and we need to be able to CALCULATE. What has been demanded, the 40 -50NM approach out of the hold maximum, is a necessity to any skipper. If we have to integrate the recently experienced 100NM+, then we have to divert earlier and will be in for tea and biscuits, because our office seat cushion warmers will be able to tell us off about going BEFORE minimum fuel. They will not listen to our experience.
We need accurate EATs and a somewhat calculable and reliable approach, otherwise we will all end up with more PANs, which screw up things even more, because taking in chaps ahead of others leads to additional PANs a.s.o.

I know holdings would fill up and the inbound and en route traffic would be infringed. For local ATC however, and for the approach traffic, life would become more predictable and thus safer. The traffic affected earlier en route would have an earlier heads up and could make better arrangements. More ATC would be involved and would start complaining, you would have better amunition to have your w@nker$ finally addressing the problem, and THAT'S what we all need.

Make life simpler for us and yourself in our backyard first, please, strictly according to RARs. The ensuing consequences will only speed things up.
At the moment your airborne collegues are the lowest in the food chain and that's why we are whinging.

Nothing personal, we know you do a great job.

[No Further Requirements]

So when's that Dubai GCC flow management centre opening up?

[Fart Master]

ATCO, thanks for the tactful first line....

Actually, you might use the levels but we are still getting vectored about. Rarely can I get half way round the hold at Desdi before I get vectored around the rest of it.... anyway, what do I know:E

Remember we are on the same side, well, certainly in Dxb, AUH is another matter:ugh:

[ATCO1969]

Sorry FM. I do lack tact lately. Possibly been doing this too long:\

Re: ..."vectored around the rest of it"

Simple explanation. When Dubai APP calls for 10/15/20 etc. NM spacing, vectoring you out of the hold (behind traffic ahead of you) is the only way to ensure that no further space is lost.

Question: ATC styles vary and some prefer to give you 3/4 large vectors (I've seen 2 or 3 180' turns given) to create the space. Others prefer to send you to the hold at your own speed only vectoring you out as described above. Which do you prefer?

'69

[Wizofoz]

ATCO,

Achieve it how you will, but what we NEED is an accurate idea of when we will be landing.

Aircraft being vectored still use fuel, so if the Expected Approach Time is in fact the Expect To Be Hal Way To Doha time, it is of precious little use to us!

[Trader]

Pool and Wiz--agree with you totally. It would make our lives better without a doubt. But to be truthful we only really need it if we commit! If all crews simply left at min diversion for their alternate there would be no fuel issue (just the issue of sitting somewhere else :) ).

The issue for us arises when we commit and then cannot afford to have the 'unknown' factor of how long our app. will be.

After enough diversion I would guess there might be changes in ATC procedures. Then again, I don't think AUH and DXB are likely on the best of terms so we will likely be dealing with this for a long time!

[Pitch Up Authority]

I understand EK uses JAR-OPS fuel policy. Then simply apply it.

Trip fuel according to known or expected operating conditions.

[BlueSkye]

EATs mean sweet f.ck all at DESDI and BUBIN. I posted about this a while back.

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/378499-expected-approach-times-explained.html

There is a Sheikh Ahmed on the board of GCAA who I am led to believe has a position at EK.

[Guy D'ageradar]

Blueskye There is a Sheikh Ahmed on the board of GCAA who I am led to believe has a position at EK. .

We all know that.

He also runs the airport and the DCA.

And the company who's 'planes all turn up at the same time (and, of course, with almost identical callsigns) , thus causing said problem.:ugh:

Of course if we banished all those pesky foreign airlines off to the most incovenient times, things would go a lot smoother for everyone ( at least, those who count). :yuk:

Watch this space. :E

[Big Buddha]

Guy, what is it with the departures on 12R, holding on the taxiway miles from the CAT1 holding point? Surely a CAT1 holding point allows us closer to the runway than that?

Departures seem incredibly slow, especially during daylight, good vis. reduced separation trial?

Also does a departure from K4 help, if so it may be good to advise us as we are still sitting on the stand waiting our turn for push, plenty of time then rather than when we start to taxi.

Cheers

[Guy D'ageradar]

BB

Sorry, not a tower flower, so can't answer 1 & 3 -will try to elicit a response from someone more knowledgeable. Does seem a bit unusual to use the cat II/III holds when it's not necessary, though. (By the way, that's also a large part of the reason for the huge spacing in LVPs - it's a long way from the hold to line up, especially from the northern side of 12L/30R)

As for the departures, the main problems are :-
1. departure splits CANNOT be used as the initial turns are not IMMEDIATELY after takeoff. (under review)

2. successive departures MUST be separated on handover to radar - otherwise the radar controller has a sep loss as soon as he receives the traffic.

3. UAE radar currently requires a minimum of 10nm in trail for successive departures through RANBI / DARAX (INCLUDING OMSJ/OMDM/OMRK/OMJA traffic!) so not much point launching them 3 miles apart - although some of our colleagues upstairs have trouble understanding this! This is now significantly more important if the new para zone at Mina Seyahi is active, as the options for the departures guy to gain spacing are severely restricted.

Keep 'em coming. :ok:

Guy.

[Tower Ranger]

Basically it`s all to do with the Glidepath sensitive areas on all runways when we go down to single rwy ops. 12R is the worst as you can`t hold at M4, K1 or K2 and you can`t taxi on L3 or L4 with inbounds so we immediately try to change it to 30L even with a small tailwind component. K4 definitely helps for departures in the case of 12R ops.
30R we can`t use M19 and K16, jetblast from here effects the Royal Hangar.(Close the door Hello!!)
30L can`t use N9 and N10 traffic from the north side has to be lined up before an inbound gets to 7 miles so we need 10 mile gaps. There`s more but I won`t bore you, suffice it to say that when it single rwy ops we have to push things to the limits that we are permitted to use.

Oh, if you ever meet a Dubai Atco who tells you that he enjoys the challenges of either 12L or LVo`s immediately punch him in the mouth as he is lying!! This also applies if you meet a Radar bad who tells you he actually knows the required spacings!!

[Guy D'ageradar]

I do ! (know the spacings, that is. I'm not that much of a glutton for punishment) :ok:

[Tower Ranger]

OOPS! In the last para above I meant 12R, Guy the punch is on its way lol!!

[pool]

Gents, don't hit each other. We all know about the crap rules set up by the ignorants in their pyjamas.
Work according to the silly stuff and let the diversions flow! I don't really know why you would take that extra stress and risk to stuff in one more per hour, it makes no difference and they take it for granted and pack some more into the air.
The system has to get into a grid-lock, and it has to happen regularly. Only then their greed will take over their stupidity and questions will be asked. Then we can hope for some change. It serves safety as well, and that's my agenda.

It's just like the other thread ("Don't help EK"). As long as we go the extra mile with their crap, we play their game but only WE bear the risks. Quite unfair.

Follow the rules and see what happens.