ATPL Air Law Tabbing

[oldm8]

Did ATPL air law the other day and the old biddy supervising at the ASL centre was not going to let me sit the exams becuause I had too many tabs in my books. I had all the "CASA approved" tabs plus about 5-10 of my own. I managed to talk her around but only barely. What really got on my goat was I called CASA and ASL about 2 days before the exam to find out exactly what I could and could not have in the exam (tabs, highlighting, underlining) etc and they gave me the impression that what I had was good to go.

Anybody else had dramas with this lately?

[smiling monkey]

plus about 5-10 of my own.

More info required here, matey. :) What else did you tab that wasn't 'CASA approved?'

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

When I tagged my 727 manual for AFPL I was worried about the headings I'd put on the tabs so I made sure to take along some blank tabs for last minute replacement. I had no problem with things like Fuel Allowances, Ldg Gr Climb Correction and PNR/ETP written on them.

(With the underlining if you try hard enough you can get pretty crafty but by time you work out a snazzy and crafty system you could have just memorised the actual info.)

FRQ CB

[Phil O'Rupp]

As far as I know, there's nothing that specifies the maximum number of tabs/tags that may be used. My AIP is covered in them (maybe 100 or so) and have never had a problem. As long as they are labels and don't contain lengthy notes there shouldn't be a problem.

[oldm8]

The 5-10 of my own included for example "single pilot IFR" section of CARs. There was nothing on the tabs that included actual content.

[blueloo]

I've always wondered about the genius's who come up with these rules......Once you pass the exam - are you allowed to use an unlimited number of tabs in day to day use? Or is that considered cheating? Maybe you should memorise the entire document and not have the ability to ever refer to a hard copy.... ffs. TWITS

[Tibbsy]

CASA is completely incapable of providing timely, sensible and standardised advice with respect to the examination system. It's a joke!

[PyroTek]

I heard that it's always a good idea to document what casa tells you, and call them three times just for accuracy! :ok:

[Tibbsy]

Yes, well that is excellent advice for dealing with any bureaucracy however it doesn't save you from the ignominy of having to debate the issue with the autocratic, clueless :mad: retired school teacher/housewife/policeman who invigilates the exam on the day.

[oldm8]

haha this old lady was into me about using pubs I had borrowed. She assumed that everyone owned a copy. I realised arguing was futile at this point.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

haha this old lady was into me about using pubs I had borrowed. She assumed that everyone owned a copy. I realised arguing was futile at this point.
Well as you are a Commercial Pilot she probably assumed that you had about $800 plus $300 annually for amendments just lying around under the couch.

FRQ CB

[el_capitano]

Just out of curiosity which exams centres are people having problems with facilitators.

[Socket]

Stop complaining, at least you can bring the publications into the exam. Engineers have to memorize EVERYTHING. Pretty stupid really when you consider that spanner must not touch aircraft till relevant and up to date reference material has been accessed. CASA logic.:ugh:

[Aeroo]

I'm not sure where people are having trouble with their exam supervisors, but I've sat exams at both Archerfield and Launceston, and never had a problem with those ones - they were always very nice and friendly!

As to tabbing, when I sat ATPL Airlaw all my folders looked like Post-it note echidnas, but there was no problem.

[strim]

It's ridiculous that electronic copies of all regs aren't provided on the examination computers. 2010?

[The Green Goblin]

For referencing I believe the paper version is still better than viewing it online!

[oldm8]

This was in the Perth centre where I had issues. There were a few of us in the same situation. I was going to ring up an complain today but didn't quite get around to it and besides it was my last exam so I don't really give a rats!:ok:

[57GoldTop]

I actually have tags for my tags.. never had a problem.

[Nadsy]

Yup,

The letter that comes with the Approved AFT tabs has always been good enough for the invigilators of my exams. The only advice I've had with regards to tabs, is that you can't cross reference.

When I did my IREX, I was worried about the AIP SUPs, because they are online now, and not distributed in loose leaf form. The exam info explicitly says that you need to take into account AIP SUPs. Got the following response from CASA:

On AIP SUPP, just use them (those online) to (by manuscript amendments) update your air publications such as AIP Book, DAPs etc. There's no need to bring the hardcopies of AIP SUPP into the exam, though CASA allows that. Don't take self-printed copies into the exams as the supervisors may get excited.

Quite frankly CASA doesn't deliberately test an AIP SUPP because of its transitory nature. So long as you transfer the really important amendments onto your principal documents, you should be okay for the IREX exam

[Diversion90]

A mate of mine said that the ASL supervisor told him that CASA are restricting the number of tabs to 6 to 10 and that they were going to allow him to use 10. He wasnt sitting an exam that required anything that day but just letting him know for his next exam.

Is this the case because I plan on sitting ATPL airlaw soon and still have CAR's CAOs etc all tabbed from CPL Airlaw and dont really want to take them out, and will obviously need to add more to them.

Has anybody else heard of this. Because I can't find any info about this on the net.

[TLAW]

Sat ATPL flight planning on Tuesday - the invigilator insisted I rub out all of the annotations in my B727 manual.

You have notes written in here, she says.

Yes, I says, just like everyone else.

You have to rub them all out, she says.

You're kidding me, I says.

Yes, she says.

Oh, you ARE kidding me, I says.

Err, no I'm not kidding you, she says, you're not allowed to have anything written in there.

But, I says, there's nothing written in there by me that isn't written elsewhere in the book, in a less convenient place.

Doesn't matter, she says.

So I make a very half hearted attempt to rub some notes out like "YD+9000kg" and "GD see 5-4!" with a furious scowl on my face to discourage further discussion on the topic.

I, personally, don't care either way. Allow annotations, do not allow annotations, but let EVERYONE know before the test and make EVERYONE follow the same rules.

[Diversion90]

TLAW you can't have stuff written into your book though. Tags are fine like headings etc...

[TLAW]

Diversion90, as I said, allow it or don't allow it, but the same rules should apply to everyone. Ask any of the loads of people who have sat that exam if they had any notes pencilled in the margins and most answers will be the same.

The CASA website states;

Markings in permitted documents

Underlining and highlighting are permissible provided these do NOT include any form of notations. Page flaggings and page dividers may be used in permitted publications but must NOT carry more than just labelling, i.e. the topic headings of the page or section. The following notes or markings are not permitted, namely formulae, explanatory notes, cross-referencing with other pages of same publications or other publications, sketches, diagrams, paste-on materials and training aide memoires.

Certain theory providers should not be encouraging their students to do this.

[oldm8]

Diversion 90,

I can assure you, like I have stated, I sat the ATPL Air Law exam in Perth last friday and the lady told me the rules had just changed and I was asked to remove a **** load of tags from my books.

The CASA website does not state this and I called a few days before and the ASL and CASA people told me exactly what the website said.

Just giving you a heads up mate, take it or leave it.

[Capt Peabody]

There's absolutely nothing against underlining and certainly there's nothing against not underlining so what then of this:

Refer to B727 Manual p. 1 - 23
Critical Point

1. Critical Point (CP) calculations may be required to ensure that the conditions laid down in the Company Fuel Policy are met. The most fuel critical operation in the B727 is the 3 Engine Depressurised cruise.

2. Critical Point calculations - position, time, fuel requirements - may be done using average data unless particular conditions of aeroplane gross weight, route distances, flight levels available, temperature and wind components require more detailed calculations using the Zonal method.

3. In-flight revision of CP calculations may be done using average data.which yields: TOTDISTIMESGSRETDIVGSSUM or

TOT DIS TIMES GS RET DIV GS SUM or

Total Distance X Ground Speed Return / Ground Speed Return + Ground Speed On
There's plenty more where that came from too such as PNR: FLYMNUSCLIMDISGRSUM or
FLY MNUS CLIM DI SGR SUM or
Fly Fuel Minus (-) Climb / Specific Ground Range SUM
and p. 5 - 1 One Engine Inop Performance:

four20TAS
and p. 5 - 19 Low Alt Cruise:

FL130 310 3 7 2 (i.e. at FL130 and IAS 310 TAS will be 372)

and p. 5 - 25 Yaw Damper Inop:

FL290 and FL 280 with the given IAS the TAS will be 4 32 a d 4 3 9 respectively.

Anybody want to critique that? Maybe explain if it is against the law? I am confident.:ok:

Capt Peabody

[Hailstop3]

which yields:
TOTDISTIMESGSRETDIVGSSUM or

TOT DIS TIMES GS RET DIV GS SUM or

Total Distance X Ground Speed Return / Ground Speed Return + Ground Speed On
There's plenty more where that came from too such as PNR:
FLYMNUSCLIMDISGRSUM or
FLY MNUS CLIM DI SGR SUM or
Fly Fuel Minus (-) Climb / Specific Ground Range SUM
and
p. 5 - 1 One Engine Inop Performance:

four20TAS
and
p. 5 - 19 Low Alt Cruise:

FL130 310 3 7 2 (i.e. at FL310 and IAS 310 TAS will be 372)

and
p. 5 - 25 Yaw Damper Inop:

FL290 and FL 280 with the given IAS the TAS will be 4 32 a d 4 3 9 respectively.

Anybody want to critique that? Maybe explain if it is against the law? I am confident.

Capt Peabody

I'm sure that is ok but certainly pushing the envelope. If you spend that much time memorising those acronyms, why not just memorise the formulas. My process is write all the formulas on one piece of paper, memorise the crap out of them taking note how many formulas there are, then as soon as time starts, write them all out on your scrap paper. Worked every time through my theory exams. I don't see the big deal about the flight planning exam. I am of average intellect, certainly no brainiac, and by making sure i had the process down pat and of good time, booking the exam, start with the big questions working backwards, I had a good 15 minutes spare to go back and check my answers. And I also did the prep self study. It's just a matter of making sure you're prepared. No need to complicate it too much. In the end I guess it is whatever works for you to be comfortable with having the tools to pass.

As for the tabbing, I had all the AFT ones on my books plus a few more with no problems done at YBAF. And as for notes in the 727 manual, a few very small ones, nothing you would call cheating though.

[knox]

Wow, you guys are lucky. Being able to take reference material into you atp law exam.
in NZ you can only take writing equipment into the exam.

marcuste747 "My process is write all the formulas on one piece of paper, memorise the crap out of them taking note how many formulas there are, then as soon as time starts, write them all out on your scrap paper."

Totally agree marcuste747 not that hard to memorise formula.

Knox.

[romeocharlie]

Cairns chick = NAZI.

Also anyone that thinks they can memorise all the CAO's, CAR's etc. must be a lot smarter than I am.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

I think that the old "data dump" is a tried and true method. You've got 15 minutes to kill while the practice exam ticks away so write away.

However nothing wrong with the underlining IMHO so long as it's legal, besides coming up with the method is actually another way of studying and on top of that we've all had brain farts and I reckon it'd be nice to have a backup.

FRQ CB

[bogdantheturnipboy]

el capitano,

Archerfield,Coffs Harbour, Alice Springs and Darwin have all been fine, but there is a woman at Maroochydore - I think she's a Nazi!

[Sierra-Kilo]

Yep its true, the woman at the Perth examination centre has been told by her supervisor not more than 10-12 tags for ATPL Airlaw. They have alot of students from China Southern and Singapore Airlines tagging with hundreds of tags writing translations on them. My friend was furious because had to detag all her books just before the exam. She rang ASL the following day and they told her that there were NO restrictions on the number of tags you could use.

[OZvandriver]

For my ATPLs I just about had more tabs than pages! Didnt even know there was an issue there, never had a problem!

[Diversion90]

Yep its true, the woman at the Perth examination centre has been told by her supervisor not more than 10-12 tags for ATPL Airlaw. They have alot of students from China Southern and Singapore Airlines tagging with hundreds of tags writing translations on them. My friend was furious because had to detag all her books just before the exam. She rang ASL the following day and they told her that there were NO restrictions on the number of tags you could use.

Hmm that's interesting surely the invigilator could just remove the books from them if that's the case because writing translations would be breaching the rules (how big are their tags??) rather than all of us having to remove our tags. Also if this is just happening at the Perth centre then it's not fair at all. I wan't to see this written on paper from CASA before she tries to take books/tags off us.

I have also now heard that this ruling will certainly be coming into effect early April sadly I was planning on sitting airlaw towards the end of it. I'm just going to have to wait and see how my mate that is currently sitting CPL exams goes when he sits navigation with his AIP in a couple of weeks.

[palmdeira]

can someone guide me as to the best self-study atpl air law assistance publication, like the one from aviation theory centre for example?
thanks
pd

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

It's ridiculous that electronic copies of all regs aren't provided on the examination computers. 2010?and

For referencing I believe the paper version is still better than viewing it online!I reckon that paper is better only if you are used to it but if I started studying now (and I include in that pre-GFPT air law studies) I reckon I'd definately prefer the PDF style. You simply cannot beat the search function and it is easier to stay focused on the matter at hand rather than being distracted by something interesting your thumb accidentally found.

Why not allow reference to the current documents via PDFs on the ASL computer? I don't think that it should be mandatory (some pilots are **** with computers) but for those who chose that option (one or the other much like AIP vs Jepps) there'd certainly be no chance for dodgy notes.

my two cents. Now where to post the question I came looking for an answer to??? Aha, please see if you can answer the question posted here (http://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=5642021#post5642021).

FRQ CB

[TinKicker]

Folks,

for those wanting the official word from CASA on the subject, here is the link to the CASA website with the updated 'policy' WEF 03 May 2010.

CASA Exam Tagging Policy (http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_100080)

I note from reading it that the phrase "no tag permitted" appears quite frequently.

Tinkicker

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Some ideas to beat CASA at their own game here (http://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=5647383&posted=1#post5647383).

FRQ CB

[K3nnyboy]

Hi All,

Sorry for bumping this topic up again, but I was going through the CASA requirement about tagging and part of it says:

"Airservices produced section dividers are NOT considered as page tags"

Does that mean I could just buy the dividers from Airservices and put a topic (eg: Duty time limit) under each divider? :ouch:

just bought some books for ATPL Air Law, planning to do my Exams in about 2-3 weeks time.:ugh:

any tips would be appreciated!! :ok:

Cheers~

KB

[Mike Litoris]

Just wondering how candidates have faired since the rules on tagging have changed?

If you sat the any of the ATPL test(s) under the new rules, was is harder than you expected? did you have much time left at the end of the exams?

Just curious.... (as well as crapping myself in preparation for the tests)

[AerocatS2A]

Does that mean I could just buy the dividers from Airservices and put a topic (eg: Duty time limit) under each divider?
What do you think? What do you think the intent of that particular "exemption" is?

[over_centre]

"Airservices produced section dividers are NOT considered as page tags.
Does that mean I could just buy the dividers from Airservices and put a topic (eg: Duty time limit) under each divider?"

The interpretation I was given is that the 'Airservices produced section dividers' refer to the labelled dividers that come with the CAO's, AIP etc so are permitted in your binders.

For ATPL Air Law no other dividers are allowed for the CAO's and 10 of your own tags are allowed in the AIP.

For the CAR's you can use your own divider for the various parts but can only be labelled as 'Part 1', 'Part 2' etc.



Does that mean I could just buy the dividers from Airservices and put a topic (eg: Duty time limit) under each divider?

The CAO binder package already has labelled dividers, e.g. 'CAO 48: Flight and Duty Time limits' (or similar wording).



any tips would be appreciated!!

Do plenty of practice exams and get to know which documents cover the various subjects; e.g, know where to find recency requirements, where to find survival equipment requirements etc etc.. This worked for me .... 93% on my first attempt. :)

Good luck!