Airspace issues descending into Perth?

[Balthazar_777]

Hi Guys,

I have been based overseas for well over a decade and have only really operated into Sydney and Melbourne in the last 15 years. Always in the flight levels under radar/ADSB contact.

Soon I will be regularly flying to Perth from Asia, (as well as Adelaide and Brisbane) and i wondering if during my descent i will be flying through any Class E airspace. Assuming a descent profile of about 1000' for every 4nm. ie descending from FL400 at about 160DME.

I have assumed that i would always be in Class A/B in Australia, but am not sure about in the west or Adelaide.

I dont have any Jeppesens with me at the moment, hence my question. I also couldn't find the charts on the Airservices site, only numerical Lat/Longs.

My purpose for asking the question is purely to help my situational awareness, as i understand that i may be sharing airspace with non radar identified or radio transmitting VFR aircraft and need to operate accordingly.

Thanks in Advance.:ok:

[Frank Arouet]

Out of curiosity, and assuming you fly out of Singapore, as per your public profile, where else do you fly except Sydney and Melbourne?

Thanks in advance, I'm just interested in your question and how your assumptions may impact upon your future regular flights to Perth.

[Balthazar_777]

Basically I have only really operated SY and ML.

My curiosity was piqued when reading the "NAS" thread and remembered some company info from years ago about descending in Australia and using LDG lights etc below FL180 due to possible flight through Class E airspace.

I was wondering how valid this still is as i understand that there have been a few changes recently.

If i am mistaken, than I apologise for wasting everyones time.

Thanks.

[Bullethead]

PM for ya Balthazar_777.

Regards,
BH.

[slice]

AFAIK, ATC keep you in class A/C around all the capital city airports.

[Awol57]

Disregard.

[LeadSled]

Balthazar 777,

Frank's is a good question. Assuming you are based in Singapore, or somewhere in the area, there's lots of G and E to your northwest, what does your company do there ---- or is it only E in Australia, about which they get twitchy.

What about diverting that takes you into G, which a big Singapore company that flies B777 has done, from Perth, on many an occasion. Or all the G in Africa, etc., etc.

Watch out for that E in Germany and France, scary stuff, E. I hope you never have to fly to India or Pakistan --- have a look at your charts for airspace classifications.

Tootle pip!!

[Capn Bloggs]

What about diverting that takes you into G, which a big Singapore company that flies B777 has done, from Perth, on many an occasion.
Rubbish. Call it what you like, Led, it's ICAO F plus, with FULL DTI, FS, AND mandatory radio AND Transponders above 10k, with mandated Radio for all aircraft at the diversion airfield AND radio freq confirmation. "Class G" my foot. :=

Fortunately Balthazar, a few NMACs after Dick Smith introduced terminal Class E in Oz got it changed back to C. The only hassle now is the limiting steps, which do not suit modern big jets. You will often get "held up" on the 9000ft step, from what I can gather from listening to the R/T. The 5k and 4k steps are also a nuisance.

[Atlas Shrugged]

The 5k and 4k steps are also a nuisance.

The whole fecking idea is a nuisance! :ugh:

[Keg]

For my own interest, what are the steps like out to the NW? It's been a while since I've been into PER from SIN but if the steps are similar to what they are coming in from the east then I'd be surprised if 9000' to 36 miles, 5000' to 22 and 4000' to 18 miles was going to be a drama at 'normal' descent speeds. Speeds above 300 knots may start to cause some dramas- particularly if your company SOPs allow that below 5000' AGL- but again, 'normal' descent speeds (250 below 10'000) shouldn't cause too many dramas?

What a/c type are you talking about Bloggs?

[Capn Bloggs]

What a/c type are you talking about Bloggs?
Big twins Keg (not your type). I occasionally hear Asian carriers being told, after they call "approaching", "further descent in XXX miles".

While the 5000ft and 4000ft steps are not actually limiting (although sometimes by only a couple of hundred feet) it's the plethora of radio calls from Approach clearing aircraft down past each step that is the most annoying, and with occasional holds ups (and missed approaches) due to the radio workload.

[Balthazar_777]

Thanks for the replies and PM's guys.

I had no agenda when asking the question, other than clearing up some confusion I had about Australian airspace. Indeed I operate worldwide and am aware of the airspace that I fly through and fly appropriately.

Hence my question.

My problem with Australian Airspace stems from my OLD memories and the many changes over the years. Just trying to clear that up. I do remember being held up a little longer than I expected previously on descent into Perth. I didn't think about it much at the time, i just followed the ATC instructions. But since I will now be regularly flying there I just wanted to make sure I understood what was going on.

Once again guys, thanks for all the replies. This is definitely the positive side of PPRUNE. :ok:

edited for fat finger typos

[Nautilus Blue]

Balthazar_777 there is Class E north of Perth, and international a/c profiles usually take them through it. I don't have a chart in front of me either but below F245 prior to 90 miles PH for example will put you in E.

But you will be kept in C all the way down.
ATC keep you in class A/C around all the capital city airports.

Not true. You will be kept 500' above G. Around Perth there are class C steps over class E. Domestic a/c profiles either by design or happy accident keep them in C, but we do assign levels in E (e.g. we assign A100 at 90 miles which could take them into E). International a/c seem to have much shallower descent profiles, which does take them into E.

(Keg, internationals regularly want lower than A090 prior to 36 miles seemingly regardless of speed, domestics never)

[Icarus2001]

No E anywhere near Perth.

Do you fly Awol57? If so this is a little scary. Perhaps open your charts?

[Awol57]

Nope I will confess its been many a year since I had to deal with anything further than 3nm YPJT or 5nm YPPH but a number of years ago when I did fly I do not recall there being E. If it's changed, my bad. I'll worry about that if I ever go to APP or Centre.

Indeed a quick look in DAH

YMMM/PERTH CTA E
LATERAL LIMITS: 33 03 37S 114 46 13E, 32 45 14S 115 06 24E
32 34 11S 115 18 26E,
then along the major arc of a circle of 50.00NM radius centred on
31 56 42S 115 57 34E (PH/DME) to 32 32 16S 116 39 06E
32 40 42S 116 54 07E, 32 54 36S 117 19 06E
then along the major arc of a circle of 90.00NM radius centred on
31 56 42S 115 57 34E (PH/DME) to 33 03 37S 114 46 13E
VERTICAL LIMITS: 8500 − FL180
HOURS OF ACTIVITY: H24
ADMINISTERING AUTHORITY: Airservices Australia

Apologies

[Balthazar_777]

Thanks Nautilus Blue,

That's the sort of info I was after. It seems that I may not be the only one who's a little confused.

The B777 and A330 seem to have shallower descent profiles than aircraft of old. In previous aircraft I flew, 3 X height (+10-15 nm for extra speed) was good, but now I find 4 x height is more appropriate., They are slippery beasts. Also our descents are now normally flown at slower indicated speeds due to cost index usage (ie. money saving).

From the info you have given it seems I will be passing through Class E on descent and probably held up a little higher than I would like due to CTR steps.

Thanks heaps,
I will plan accordingly.:)

[4Greens]

Put your landing lights on regardless at night.

[Nautilus Blue]

No problems Balthazar_777. To clarify my post, there are two separate issues, entering E, and being held up on descent to remain above G.

From memory, outside 90 DME PH, is A down to F245 then E down to F180 then G. Between 90 and 36 DME it's A down to F180, G A085 and below. In between there are descending C steps, and under the steps down to A085 is E.

Assuming no traffic, the lowest you can be assigned is F190 until 90 DME, and then A090 until 36 DME, to stay in controlled airspace (class A,C and E in this case). As the RWY21 STAR from the north is almost straight in this will probably hold you up above profile (RW03 STAR has many more track miles inside 36 DME). Given descent clearance, whether you enter E or remain in A+C is up to you.

On a practical note, the E in question is well under radar cover and I've only ever seen one VFR a/c i it. One of our regulars departs PH northbound sometimes VFR at A095. In this case I wouldn't bother passing traffic, just assign F110 until passed.

[Capn Bloggs]

Leadsled,
On a practical note, the E in question is well under radar cover and I've only ever seen one VFR a/c i it. One of our regulars departs PH northbound sometimes VFR at A095. In this case I wouldn't bother passing traffic, just assign F110 until passed.
Did anybody get messed about here? Has your fabled E airspace saved your VFR driver squillions of dollars because he's "free in E"? As opposed to some poor international crew, if the airspace was implemented being strictly to the letter of the law, being given traffic on a VFR opposite direction? What a ridiculous situation. 300+ pax doing self-segregation on a bugsmasher. Wake up to yourself, whoever you are.

[LeadSled]

Rubbish. Call it what you like, Led, it's ICAO F plus, with FULL DTI, FS, AND mandatory radio AND Transponders above 10k, with mandated Radio for all aircraft at the diversion airfield AND radio freq confirmation. "Class G" my foot.

Well ,Well, Well!! My Dear Capn Bloggs,

Things have certainly changed since last time I was in Learmonth, please to hear it's "F+" (whatever that is), must be the first in Australia.

What I think you really meant was directing your comment to what I had to say some way WNW of Singapore.

Silly old me, next time I read G (or D/E) on the Jepp, I'll know that's just Jepp. getting it wrong, and know it's really something else.

Seriously, on a number of occasions over the years, I have found myself up close and personal with military aircraft. Indeed, the primary reason why certain un-named countries in the area referred to refuse to institute A or C in their PDR system is that the military will not accept any restrictions on their operations.

Likewise, you find out what is really going on after a near hit, when (despite all the blather you have described on the airwaves) the, "authority" disclaims all responsibility because it is G or F (or the military aircraft was VFR in E).

Three cheers for TCAS/ACAS ---- I have a lot more faith in it than the various "services" provided around most of the Indian Ocean.

Tootle pip!!

[Capn Bloggs]

Leddie, could you run that past me again? It didn't make sense the first time.

PS: I'll ring up the mil ATCOs in Learmonth tower and ask them what airpsace they are surrounded by. :rolleyes:

[ozineurope]

You wont get an answer unless there is an exercise on. YPLM TWR is umanned almost all the time......

[Capn Bloggs]

Sorry Oz, I was pulling Leadie's leg. :ok:

[ozineurope]

Copied. SOme history on the TMA bits....

My understanding of the airspace (I helped design the changes) was that we had to consider CDAs as the most appropriate criteria and work back from there. We tried to utilise 3° descent profile where possible but were not allowed to increase the amount of Class C airspace. Becomes quite difficult when we required more C to fit the 03ILS (another dog's breakfast of design).

The catalyst for change was the airspace owners to the north of Perth who insisted on being able to use all the red bits they had before. Hence the 21 STAR via BIU does a dog leg at about 120nm to go around the RAAF and then joins the 8nm final (which does not meet PANS/OPS).

Similarly the 03 deal goes way west to avoid the RAAF, then bumps into the Navy then ricochets back towards the coast. When we obtained the C to the south it required the resumption/release of RAAF areas. ASA CB in thier wisdom got the smallest piece of C they could so not to upset the JT people and then got us to design the procedures/STAR/ILS around that.

It is not the prettiest STAR in the world but most of the time the 03ILS works for crews and ATC, it is a nightmare to sequence to in anything but a zephyr however and the opposite bases means that sometimes aircraft are held high until quite late.

Remember that if you opt for the ILS to 03 be prepared to fly it as there is not too much ATC can do to shorten the procedure once the STAR is given, descent is predicated on the extra track miles and the sequence is pretty unchangeable once you are inside about 25nm (35 track miles).

If anyone wants I can do more detail via PM.

:-)