Changing from straight in to circling approach

[Steve888]

I recently finished my MECIR and so have been thinking a lot about IFR procedures and ways to stay safe, particular for when I fly my first solo IFR flight, with the possibility of IMC.

Say you are conducting the runway 16 NDB approach into Kingary, QLD (YKRY) in a Cat B aircraft like a light twin (a baron or seneca etc). Link: https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/publications/pending/dap/KRYNB01-121.pdf

The wind direction and other circuit traffic indicated a straight in, runway, approach is best and so you plan to descend to the straight in MDA of 2440 feet (assume no QNH available, though it doesn't impact on the question).

At 2440 feet and 5km from the airport, you become visual but for some reason (be it you're too high, another aircraft on final or on the runway) you can no longer land straight in and instead elect to circle around and fly a right hand pattern for runway 16 (due to the no circling area).

My question is: should you then climb to the circling MDA of 2570 feet?

My thinking is, if this was during the day, you could remain at 2440 feet as long as you maintain visual contact with the runway etc. However, if it was at night, you cannot descend below MDA until at the normal point in the circuit for that height, and since you're now circling, you need to use the circling MDA.

Also, from a commercial point of view, if the cloud base was 2500 feet, so at the circling MDA you are not visual, a missed approach would be required wasting significant time in setting up for the approach again.

Hope all of that makes sense, and that someone can answer.

Cheers

[Erin Brockovich]

Just do what I presume you have been taught to do and go-round enter the hold and try again. Change to the NDB RWY 34 (if it exists).

The MDA of 2440’ can only be used for the runway aligned approach. If you can’t land for whatever reason (as in the AIP) conduct a missed approach.

You could change your mind and circle at any time before 2570’ but not recommended in bad weather. Brief yourself prior and stick with the plan. I know commercial pressures are real, especially when you’re starting out. But they slowly fade away as you wise up over the years. Waste as much time as you need to land safely. It’s still quicker than filling out an ATSB report – if you’re still alive to do it that is.

Enjoy the IR as it means you are now a professional pilot.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

At 2440 feet and 5km from the airport, you become visual but for some reason (be it you're too high, another aircraft on final or on the runway) you can no longer land straight in and instead elect to circle around and fly a right hand pattern (due to the no circling area).

From 5 km out - slow down, tell the fcker to get out of your way, and continue your approach. If the runway is not clear when you get to XXX' (insert whatever figure you are happy with) fly the full missed approach and have another go!

Dr :8

PS: If you are flying an appr to minima, the only other aircraft likely to be on final appr or on the rwy will be a croppie - they are pros and will quickly get out of your way!

[SM227]

By day it would be fine so long as you stay your 300ft or 400ft above obstacles. But by night, since you would be now doing a circling procedure, you must be at 2570ft, and that means loosing visual conditions and having to commence a MAP.
You should not be high on the approach in the first place (especialy in this case when you only need to loose 800ft in 2/3min!) so i think you would just need to bite the bullet and go try again and get it right.

[Steve888]

FTDK
I should of specified, circle around to runway 16, basically joining a mid field crosswind, which would be right hand.

SM227
That was my thinking. And perhaps a more reasonable scenario is traffic on base or final, rather than being too high.

[43Inches]

If you had the required 5k vis your in VMC, SI minima is over 1000agl, do a visual circuit. By day if vis was less than 5k but above 2.4k maintain track and the MDA to the circling area and circle. By night below 5k vis would require a missed approach unless the circling MDA is maintained. Thats the law side.

A reason larger aircraft operators will not visually circle off a straight in approach is usually the aircraft is in the final configuration prior to the MDA. Having landing flap and gear selected is far from ideal to manuevre at low altitude. In most cases the minimum risk solution is to do the missed approach and reconfigure for circling on the next try.

A few questions that need to be answered prior to this event are;

-Are you familiar with obstacles in the circling area
-Will the weather permit safe visual circling
-Will the aircraft require configuration changes and how will this affect your ability to concentrate on flight path and obstacles.
-Are you mentally prepared to circle in the conditions

If any of these are hazy or un-answered than do the missed approach and re-assess your plan of action.

[Flopt]

If an aircraft descends below the circling minima to the runway minima prior to becoming visual, either a landing straight ahead or a missed approach must be conducted.

The option of circling to another or even the same runway is not available.

The reason is that the runway minima is always lower than the circling minima because the obstacle clearance area is smaller if visual circling is not required to join final for the selected runway !!!!!!!!

[ With thanks to Chris Henry who I did my CPL training with many years ago and who used to produce an excellent CIR book ].

Flopt

PS in ignorance contemplated something similar at YKRY ten years ago in a Baron and worked out very quickly that it was a very unwise thing to try.:=

[Flopt]

Say you have flown the 16NDB approach at YKRY, become visual at the circling minima, decided to commence circling to land on R/W 34 [say due wind], and then lost visual reference.....eg. while on left downwind

How would you then manouvre to correctly carry out a missed approach?

Flopt

[ConfigFull]

Flopt, you fly as best as you can towards the centre of the runway of the missed approach you are going to do. I know the AIP reference but it's too late for a link!

[Flopt]

Don't rely on answers you get here....they may only be rumours!!!!!!!

Ask your MCIR training instructor/ATO and then get him to show it to you in print in the AIP.

Flopt :ok:

[Flopt]

Thanks CF yeh,as in ENR1.5-8 1.10.3.....

Think that means in my example a climbing u-turn to the right and continuing to track to the ndb to intercept 168 outbound..

Flopt

PS sorry for the thread drift but the question got me thinking...which can only be a good thing [ rare event, some might say]...and I've spent half my 3600hrs operating in and out of KRY...

[aussie027]

A lot of very good advice given here Steve,

To reiterate some earlier responses, if you already at the straight in MDA and NOT visual (with reqd Viz and clear of cloud) you must carry out the MA Proc at the MAP or before.

IF on the other hand you are visual at the straight in MDA with the reqd CIRCLING viz , IF you decide to now circle, say to land the opposite direction you must climb back to the circling MDA for your Category and have the reqd CIRCLING Viz, maintain clear of cloud and visual contact with the landing runway and stay within the circling area.
ONLY the circling MDA will give the reqd obstacle clnce for each category as specified in the AIP.
As others have rightly mentioned a straight in appch is much safer than a circling one ESPECIALLY if conditions are at or close to minimums and even more so at night or in mountainous terrain areas when there are high obstacles/terrain in or close to the circling area.
Many airlines and other commercial operators around the world have restrictions and extra conditions on circling approaches if they are allowed at all at certain locations even when they are published.

[Howard Hughes]

with the resulting angles of bank required? i.e. a thumping big wing blocking your view.

Use rudder to bring the aircraft around rather than a high angle of bank!:eek:

Not a good feeling for the pax down the back, but sometimes it's the difference between getting runway aligned and a missed approach!;)

[j3pipercub]

aussie027 wrote

IF on the other hand you are visual at the straight in MDA with the reqd CIRCLING viz , IF you decide to now circle, say to land the opposite direction you must climb back to the circling MDA for your Category and have the reqd CIRCLING Viz, maintain clear of cloud and visual contact with the landing runway and stay within the circling area.

I will stand corrected, however, I think you are wrong...

ALL THE BELOW IS PREDICATED ON DAYLIGHT ONLY AND BEING WITHIN THE CIRCLING AREA (2.66NM)

Jepp Terminal 3.13.3 para 'e'

in daylight only, while complying with a., b. and c., maintains visual contact with obstacles along the intended flight path and obstacle clearance not less than the minimum for the aircraft performance category until the aircraft is aligned with the landing runway

For a Cat B aircraft, the obstacle clearance is 300ft.

AND, before you got quoting 3.10.1 para 'd', it says

[sic] A missed approach must be executed if:

d. a landing cannot be effected from a runway approach, unless a circling approach can be conducted in weather conditions equal to or better than those specified for circling

This does not mean that in order to conduct a circling approach the aircraft must be flown at the circling minima. It can be descended down to 300ft above terrain in order to conduct a circling approach... until a position on downwind base or final...etc...

In addition, Flopt I think you are incorrect in your assertion that

The option of circling to another or even the same runway is not available.

I would like to see the reference for that one...

j3

[Chimbu chuckles]

Woah there HH - rudder turning doesn't increase angle of bank?

It most assuredly DOES and to maintain angle of bank you will need opposite aileron - why on earth would you be wanting to have 'pro spin' control inputs while 'circling' at low altitude/relatively low speed and/or in restricted visibility/at night?

This is really bad advice that you have received/are passing on.

If you have to circle under circumstances that dictate right turns you'll likely be at fairly low altitude - get your downwind spacing right (you'll be pretty close to the runway anyway) nail the drift and then do a co-ordinated level turn initially until you see 'something associated with the threshold' before descending and landing.

Someone else suggested 'big aeroplanes' don't circle fully configured for landing - utter crap. Its far easier/smarter to do that than to be reconfiguring on downwind and running checklists when you SHOULD just be flying the aircraft. I just recently had to circle in B767 sim recurrent and I did it gear down/flap 30.

That is NOT to suggest you should fly a Baron etc the way we fly Boeings - but circling with gear down and approach flap set is perfectly reasonable in a baron etc and you CAN land in that config.

Actually having to circle is a rare event anyway with runway aligned GPS NPA being the norm - don't make it harder than it needs to be.

[sru]

Someone else suggested 'big aeroplanes' don't circle fully configured for landing - utter crap. Its far easier/smarter to do that than to be reconfiguring on downwind and running checklists when you SHOULD just be flying the aircraft. I just recently had to circle in B767 sim recurrent and I did it gear down/flap 30.

Chimbu beat me to !

All types I have flown above, 5700kg and multi crewed, we are always fully configured with all checklist completed before the FAF or sooner. This complys with the Flight Safety Foundations Stable Approach requirements. :ok:

[Chimbu chuckles]

back on the dials for the downwind turn probably overstates it a bit but on the other hand when 'visual' at the end of an IAL procedure in anything approaching min required vis you will be relying on your instrument scan for performance information while also scanning outside to fine tune the circling.

Use 1% of your ground speed as a prompt for starting the 90 degree turn - @130kts 1.3nm - so for a circling area of 2.7nm start your turn at 4 DME.

Look for things 'associated with the approach threshold' - maybe a river bend, house, road, clump of trees to help you fine tune the turn onto finals IF you cannot see the runway on very late downwind.

Think about how high you are AGL and how far from the landing threshold you would be on a straight in approach at that altitude. If you're around 400AGL then that would equate to about 1.3nm to touchdown on a straight in. If you are circling at 2.7nm you can certainly afford to turn base level, and will probably HAVE to if you're not to end up dangerously low, and should have plenty of time to sight the approach threshold and line up, using your little landmarks if needed, before descending from circling altitude. If there is an obstacle that puts you up around 800AGL (400' above the highest obstacle in the circling area) then you would be something like 2.6nm out on a straight in so can't afford to dick around too much before descending but you can CERTAINLY afford to START the base turn level while picking up on your cues and then descend in the turn.

[PA39]

Fly to the minima, then "If visual reference is lost at or below the minima.....conduct a missed approach".

[Angle of Attack]

I'll concur j3pipercub!

Daylight as, long as you can maintain the required height (300'agl) and viz theres no requirement to maintain circling mda. Quite often Ive broken visual but can see few or sct cloud ahead around 500'agl, maintaining circling mda would mean I lose visual contact with runway so down to 300ft agl to continue to circle. Obviously you should be aware what height the highest obstacle or terrain is in the circling area to be aware of it.

Night however, that's a different kettle of fish!

[43Inches]

Someone else suggested 'big aeroplanes' don't circle fully configured for landing - utter crap. Its far easier/smarter to do that than to be reconfiguring on downwind and running checklists when you SHOULD just be flying the aircraft. I just recently had to circle in B767 sim recurrent and I did it gear down/flap 30


Was not refering to all larger aircraft in my statement, a 767 would very rarely be conducting a visual circling manuevre at 500ft agl (except in the sim). The aircraft most likely to be performing circling in marginal conditions have much less power available especially on one engine. Medium to large turbo-props and large piston engine aircraft will struggle at high weight in landing configuration.

[aussie027]

Guys,
As far as I have always been told, if you are circling, the circling MDA is the minimum altitude for circling until in a position in the circuit to carry out a normal descent using normal rates of descent for the aircraft type to the landing threshold.

The circling MDA is designed to give you the required Obstacle clearance of 300' Cat A & B or 400' Cat C&D anywhere within the prescribed circling area.

You cannot circle at an altitude of your choosing that you think will keep you 300 or 400' above all obstacles based on where you think the critical obstacle(s) are.
If you cannot remain clear of cloud with the required visibility as per the chart and keep the runway environment in sight whilst at the circling MDA then the weather is below the circling minimums, and you shouldn't be there, ie you should have executed the MAProc.

Also I was told, by examiners both here in Aust and in the US that if because of the aircraft's design you cannot see the runway and keep it in sight ,for eg when trying to circle to the right, because of the wing, engine nacelle, viewing angles thru cockpit windows or whatever then you should not be doing that either.

[Ted D Bear]

Aussie

What you say about not descending below the circling minima until a normal descent at normal rates can be made is right - but only at night. By day, you can descend if you maintain the required obstacle clearance depending on aircraft category - see the quotes from AIP above. But - yes - you must remain clear of cloud, with the required visibility and keep the threshold in sight.

What you say about conducting a missed approach if an engine nacelle (or something else) prevents you from keeping the threshold in site is also correct - technically. That would rule out a circling approach in just about everything I can think of though, so I guess most people are applying a little bit of "commonsense" to the rule. Legitimate question though: how much "commonsense" before you wind up in trouble.

The important point about circling approaches, though, is that they are higher risk than just about anything else we do. And controlling the aircraft by reference to instruments and [some] visual reference is gonna be challenging ...

Ted

[Gundog01]

J3piper and Ted D, have nailed it.

This is one that always seems to draw a wide variety of opinions. But the rules as J3 described and found in ENR 1.7.3 are quite clear.

Important to read note 1, the 'concept' section in ENR 1.7.3 where it describes further how the rules should be applied.

Also note that this concept section says pilots should maintain maximum practical obstacle clearance.

So, you can descend below MDA by day ifvisual with required circling visibility, but you should attempt to maintain maximum terrain clearance while doing so.