Changing from straight in to circling approach
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Changing from straight in to circling approach
I recently finished my MECIR and so have been thinking a lot about IFR procedures and ways to stay safe, particular for when I fly my first solo IFR flight, with the possibility of IMC.
Say you are conducting the runway 16 NDB approach into Kingary, QLD (YKRY) in a Cat B aircraft like a light twin (a baron or seneca etc). Link: https://www.airservicesaustralia.com...RYNB01-121.pdf
The wind direction and other circuit traffic indicated a straight in, runway, approach is best and so you plan to descend to the straight in MDA of 2440 feet (assume no QNH available, though it doesn't impact on the question).
At 2440 feet and 5km from the airport, you become visual but for some reason (be it you're too high, another aircraft on final or on the runway) you can no longer land straight in and instead elect to circle around and fly a right hand pattern for runway 16 (due to the no circling area).
My question is: should you then climb to the circling MDA of 2570 feet?
My thinking is, if this was during the day, you could remain at 2440 feet as long as you maintain visual contact with the runway etc. However, if it was at night, you cannot descend below MDA until at the normal point in the circuit for that height, and since you're now circling, you need to use the circling MDA.
Also, from a commercial point of view, if the cloud base was 2500 feet, so at the circling MDA you are not visual, a missed approach would be required wasting significant time in setting up for the approach again.
Hope all of that makes sense, and that someone can answer.
Cheers
Say you are conducting the runway 16 NDB approach into Kingary, QLD (YKRY) in a Cat B aircraft like a light twin (a baron or seneca etc). Link: https://www.airservicesaustralia.com...RYNB01-121.pdf
The wind direction and other circuit traffic indicated a straight in, runway, approach is best and so you plan to descend to the straight in MDA of 2440 feet (assume no QNH available, though it doesn't impact on the question).
At 2440 feet and 5km from the airport, you become visual but for some reason (be it you're too high, another aircraft on final or on the runway) you can no longer land straight in and instead elect to circle around and fly a right hand pattern for runway 16 (due to the no circling area).
My question is: should you then climb to the circling MDA of 2570 feet?
My thinking is, if this was during the day, you could remain at 2440 feet as long as you maintain visual contact with the runway etc. However, if it was at night, you cannot descend below MDA until at the normal point in the circuit for that height, and since you're now circling, you need to use the circling MDA.
Also, from a commercial point of view, if the cloud base was 2500 feet, so at the circling MDA you are not visual, a missed approach would be required wasting significant time in setting up for the approach again.
Hope all of that makes sense, and that someone can answer.
Cheers
Last edited by Steve888; 8th Mar 2010 at 10:13.
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Just do what I presume you have been taught to do and go-round enter the hold and try again. Change to the NDB RWY 34 (if it exists).
The MDA of 2440’ can only be used for the runway aligned approach. If you can’t land for whatever reason (as in the AIP) conduct a missed approach.
You could change your mind and circle at any time before 2570’ but not recommended in bad weather. Brief yourself prior and stick with the plan. I know commercial pressures are real, especially when you’re starting out. But they slowly fade away as you wise up over the years. Waste as much time as you need to land safely. It’s still quicker than filling out an ATSB report – if you’re still alive to do it that is.
Enjoy the IR as it means you are now a professional pilot.
The MDA of 2440’ can only be used for the runway aligned approach. If you can’t land for whatever reason (as in the AIP) conduct a missed approach.
You could change your mind and circle at any time before 2570’ but not recommended in bad weather. Brief yourself prior and stick with the plan. I know commercial pressures are real, especially when you’re starting out. But they slowly fade away as you wise up over the years. Waste as much time as you need to land safely. It’s still quicker than filling out an ATSB report – if you’re still alive to do it that is.
Enjoy the IR as it means you are now a professional pilot.
At 2440 feet and 5km from the airport, you become visual but for some reason (be it you're too high, another aircraft on final or on the runway) you can no longer land straight in and instead elect to circle around and fly a right hand pattern (due to the no circling area).
Dr
PS: If you are flying an appr to minima, the only other aircraft likely to be on final appr or on the rwy will be a croppie - they are pros and will quickly get out of your way!
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 8th Mar 2010 at 10:19.
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By day it would be fine so long as you stay your 300ft or 400ft above obstacles. But by night, since you would be now doing a circling procedure, you must be at 2570ft, and that means loosing visual conditions and having to commence a MAP.
You should not be high on the approach in the first place (especialy in this case when you only need to loose 800ft in 2/3min!) so i think you would just need to bite the bullet and go try again and get it right.
You should not be high on the approach in the first place (especialy in this case when you only need to loose 800ft in 2/3min!) so i think you would just need to bite the bullet and go try again and get it right.
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FTDK
I should of specified, circle around to runway 16, basically joining a mid field crosswind, which would be right hand.
SM227
That was my thinking. And perhaps a more reasonable scenario is traffic on base or final, rather than being too high.
I should of specified, circle around to runway 16, basically joining a mid field crosswind, which would be right hand.
SM227
That was my thinking. And perhaps a more reasonable scenario is traffic on base or final, rather than being too high.
If you had the required 5k vis your in VMC, SI minima is over 1000agl, do a visual circuit. By day if vis was less than 5k but above 2.4k maintain track and the MDA to the circling area and circle. By night below 5k vis would require a missed approach unless the circling MDA is maintained. Thats the law side.
A reason larger aircraft operators will not visually circle off a straight in approach is usually the aircraft is in the final configuration prior to the MDA. Having landing flap and gear selected is far from ideal to manuevre at low altitude. In most cases the minimum risk solution is to do the missed approach and reconfigure for circling on the next try.
A few questions that need to be answered prior to this event are;
-Are you familiar with obstacles in the circling area
-Will the weather permit safe visual circling
-Will the aircraft require configuration changes and how will this affect your ability to concentrate on flight path and obstacles.
-Are you mentally prepared to circle in the conditions
If any of these are hazy or un-answered than do the missed approach and re-assess your plan of action.
A reason larger aircraft operators will not visually circle off a straight in approach is usually the aircraft is in the final configuration prior to the MDA. Having landing flap and gear selected is far from ideal to manuevre at low altitude. In most cases the minimum risk solution is to do the missed approach and reconfigure for circling on the next try.
A few questions that need to be answered prior to this event are;
-Are you familiar with obstacles in the circling area
-Will the weather permit safe visual circling
-Will the aircraft require configuration changes and how will this affect your ability to concentrate on flight path and obstacles.
-Are you mentally prepared to circle in the conditions
If any of these are hazy or un-answered than do the missed approach and re-assess your plan of action.
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Changing from R/w approach to circling approach....
If an aircraft descends below the circling minima to the runway minima prior to becoming visual, either a landing straight ahead or a missed approach must be conducted.
The option of circling to another or even the same runway is not available.
The reason is that the runway minima is always lower than the circling minima because the obstacle clearance area is smaller if visual circling is not required to join final for the selected runway !!!!!!!!
[ With thanks to Chris Henry who I did my CPL training with many years ago and who used to produce an excellent CIR book ].
Flopt
PS in ignorance contemplated something similar at YKRY ten years ago in a Baron and worked out very quickly that it was a very unwise thing to try.
The option of circling to another or even the same runway is not available.
The reason is that the runway minima is always lower than the circling minima because the obstacle clearance area is smaller if visual circling is not required to join final for the selected runway !!!!!!!!
[ With thanks to Chris Henry who I did my CPL training with many years ago and who used to produce an excellent CIR book ].
Flopt
PS in ignorance contemplated something similar at YKRY ten years ago in a Baron and worked out very quickly that it was a very unwise thing to try.
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Follow up question....
Say you have flown the 16NDB approach at YKRY, become visual at the circling minima, decided to commence circling to land on R/W 34 [say due wind], and then lost visual reference.....eg. while on left downwind
How would you then manouvre to correctly carry out a missed approach?
Flopt
How would you then manouvre to correctly carry out a missed approach?
Flopt
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Further advice.....
Don't rely on answers you get here....they may only be rumours!!!!!!!
Ask your MCIR training instructor/ATO and then get him to show it to you in print in the AIP.
Flopt
Ask your MCIR training instructor/ATO and then get him to show it to you in print in the AIP.
Flopt
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Missed approach..
Thanks CF yeh,as in ENR1.5-8 1.10.3.....
Think that means in my example a climbing u-turn to the right and continuing to track to the ndb to intercept 168 outbound..
Flopt
PS sorry for the thread drift but the question got me thinking...which can only be a good thing [ rare event, some might say]...and I've spent half my 3600hrs operating in and out of KRY...
Think that means in my example a climbing u-turn to the right and continuing to track to the ndb to intercept 168 outbound..
Flopt
PS sorry for the thread drift but the question got me thinking...which can only be a good thing [ rare event, some might say]...and I've spent half my 3600hrs operating in and out of KRY...
A lot of very good advice given here Steve,
To reiterate some earlier responses, if you already at the straight in MDA and NOT visual (with reqd Viz and clear of cloud) you must carry out the MA Proc at the MAP or before.
IF on the other hand you are visual at the straight in MDA with the reqd CIRCLING viz , IF you decide to now circle, say to land the opposite direction you must climb back to the circling MDA for your Category and have the reqd CIRCLING Viz, maintain clear of cloud and visual contact with the landing runway and stay within the circling area.
ONLY the circling MDA will give the reqd obstacle clnce for each category as specified in the AIP.
As others have rightly mentioned a straight in appch is much safer than a circling one ESPECIALLY if conditions are at or close to minimums and even more so at night or in mountainous terrain areas when there are high obstacles/terrain in or close to the circling area.
Many airlines and other commercial operators around the world have restrictions and extra conditions on circling approaches if they are allowed at all at certain locations even when they are published.
To reiterate some earlier responses, if you already at the straight in MDA and NOT visual (with reqd Viz and clear of cloud) you must carry out the MA Proc at the MAP or before.
IF on the other hand you are visual at the straight in MDA with the reqd CIRCLING viz , IF you decide to now circle, say to land the opposite direction you must climb back to the circling MDA for your Category and have the reqd CIRCLING Viz, maintain clear of cloud and visual contact with the landing runway and stay within the circling area.
ONLY the circling MDA will give the reqd obstacle clnce for each category as specified in the AIP.
As others have rightly mentioned a straight in appch is much safer than a circling one ESPECIALLY if conditions are at or close to minimums and even more so at night or in mountainous terrain areas when there are high obstacles/terrain in or close to the circling area.
Many airlines and other commercial operators around the world have restrictions and extra conditions on circling approaches if they are allowed at all at certain locations even when they are published.
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with the resulting angles of bank required? i.e. a thumping big wing blocking your view.
Not a good feeling for the pax down the back, but sometimes it's the difference between getting runway aligned and a missed approach!
Ummmm....you guys sure?
aussie027 wrote
I will stand corrected, however, I think you are wrong...
ALL THE BELOW IS PREDICATED ON DAYLIGHT ONLY AND BEING WITHIN THE CIRCLING AREA (2.66NM)
Jepp Terminal 3.13.3 para 'e'
For a Cat B aircraft, the obstacle clearance is 300ft.
AND, before you got quoting 3.10.1 para 'd', it says
[sic] A missed approach must be executed if:
This does not mean that in order to conduct a circling approach the aircraft must be flown at the circling minima. It can be descended down to 300ft above terrain in order to conduct a circling approach... until a position on downwind base or final...etc...
In addition, Flopt I think you are incorrect in your assertion that
I would like to see the reference for that one...
j3
IF on the other hand you are visual at the straight in MDA with the reqd CIRCLING viz , IF you decide to now circle, say to land the opposite direction you must climb back to the circling MDA for your Category and have the reqd CIRCLING Viz, maintain clear of cloud and visual contact with the landing runway and stay within the circling area.
ALL THE BELOW IS PREDICATED ON DAYLIGHT ONLY AND BEING WITHIN THE CIRCLING AREA (2.66NM)
Jepp Terminal 3.13.3 para 'e'
in daylight only, while complying with a., b. and c., maintains visual contact with obstacles along the intended flight path and obstacle clearance not less than the minimum for the aircraft performance category until the aircraft is aligned with the landing runway
AND, before you got quoting 3.10.1 para 'd', it says
[sic] A missed approach must be executed if:
d. a landing cannot be effected from a runway approach, unless a circling approach can be conducted in weather conditions equal to or better than those specified for circling
In addition, Flopt I think you are incorrect in your assertion that
The option of circling to another or even the same runway is not available.
j3
Grandpa Aerotart
Woah there HH - rudder turning doesn't increase angle of bank?
It most assuredly DOES and to maintain angle of bank you will need opposite aileron - why on earth would you be wanting to have 'pro spin' control inputs while 'circling' at low altitude/relatively low speed and/or in restricted visibility/at night?
This is really bad advice that you have received/are passing on.
If you have to circle under circumstances that dictate right turns you'll likely be at fairly low altitude - get your downwind spacing right (you'll be pretty close to the runway anyway) nail the drift and then do a co-ordinated level turn initially until you see 'something associated with the threshold' before descending and landing.
Someone else suggested 'big aeroplanes' don't circle fully configured for landing - utter crap. Its far easier/smarter to do that than to be reconfiguring on downwind and running checklists when you SHOULD just be flying the aircraft. I just recently had to circle in B767 sim recurrent and I did it gear down/flap 30.
That is NOT to suggest you should fly a Baron etc the way we fly Boeings - but circling with gear down and approach flap set is perfectly reasonable in a baron etc and you CAN land in that config.
Actually having to circle is a rare event anyway with runway aligned GPS NPA being the norm - don't make it harder than it needs to be.
It most assuredly DOES and to maintain angle of bank you will need opposite aileron - why on earth would you be wanting to have 'pro spin' control inputs while 'circling' at low altitude/relatively low speed and/or in restricted visibility/at night?
This is really bad advice that you have received/are passing on.
If you have to circle under circumstances that dictate right turns you'll likely be at fairly low altitude - get your downwind spacing right (you'll be pretty close to the runway anyway) nail the drift and then do a co-ordinated level turn initially until you see 'something associated with the threshold' before descending and landing.
Someone else suggested 'big aeroplanes' don't circle fully configured for landing - utter crap. Its far easier/smarter to do that than to be reconfiguring on downwind and running checklists when you SHOULD just be flying the aircraft. I just recently had to circle in B767 sim recurrent and I did it gear down/flap 30.
That is NOT to suggest you should fly a Baron etc the way we fly Boeings - but circling with gear down and approach flap set is perfectly reasonable in a baron etc and you CAN land in that config.
Actually having to circle is a rare event anyway with runway aligned GPS NPA being the norm - don't make it harder than it needs to be.
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Someone else suggested 'big aeroplanes' don't circle fully configured for landing - utter crap. Its far easier/smarter to do that than to be reconfiguring on downwind and running checklists when you SHOULD just be flying the aircraft. I just recently had to circle in B767 sim recurrent and I did it gear down/flap 30.
Chimbu beat me to !
All types I have flown above, 5700kg and multi crewed, we are always fully configured with all checklist completed before the FAF or sooner. This complys with the Flight Safety Foundations Stable Approach requirements.
Grandpa Aerotart
back on the dials for the downwind turn
Use 1% of your ground speed as a prompt for starting the 90 degree turn - @130kts 1.3nm - so for a circling area of 2.7nm start your turn at 4 DME.
Look for things 'associated with the approach threshold' - maybe a river bend, house, road, clump of trees to help you fine tune the turn onto finals IF you cannot see the runway on very late downwind.
Think about how high you are AGL and how far from the landing threshold you would be on a straight in approach at that altitude. If you're around 400AGL then that would equate to about 1.3nm to touchdown on a straight in. If you are circling at 2.7nm you can certainly afford to turn base level, and will probably HAVE to if you're not to end up dangerously low, and should have plenty of time to sight the approach threshold and line up, using your little landmarks if needed, before descending from circling altitude. If there is an obstacle that puts you up around 800AGL (400' above the highest obstacle in the circling area) then you would be something like 2.6nm out on a straight in so can't afford to dick around too much before descending but you can CERTAINLY afford to START the base turn level while picking up on your cues and then descend in the turn.
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I'll concur j3pipercub!
Daylight as, long as you can maintain the required height (300'agl) and viz theres no requirement to maintain circling mda. Quite often Ive broken visual but can see few or sct cloud ahead around 500'agl, maintaining circling mda would mean I lose visual contact with runway so down to 300ft agl to continue to circle. Obviously you should be aware what height the highest obstacle or terrain is in the circling area to be aware of it.
Night however, that's a different kettle of fish!
Daylight as, long as you can maintain the required height (300'agl) and viz theres no requirement to maintain circling mda. Quite often Ive broken visual but can see few or sct cloud ahead around 500'agl, maintaining circling mda would mean I lose visual contact with runway so down to 300ft agl to continue to circle. Obviously you should be aware what height the highest obstacle or terrain is in the circling area to be aware of it.
Night however, that's a different kettle of fish!
Someone else suggested 'big aeroplanes' don't circle fully configured for landing - utter crap. Its far easier/smarter to do that than to be reconfiguring on downwind and running checklists when you SHOULD just be flying the aircraft. I just recently had to circle in B767 sim recurrent and I did it gear down/flap 30
