All EK ULR Flights to be 3 pilot crews!

[TheyCallMeTrinity]

Straight from the Horses mouth to my ears: Emirates ULR flights will shortly consist of only 3 pilots, yep that's right even IAH. So, that ol' pilot shortage that we thought we were having is about to end. I know the super sharp guys out there are about to quote some regulation about how this could never happen but let's face it there aren't any regulations here, human rights or compassion. Oh and remember if your kids are seen on motor vehicles like "3 wheelers" you will be fired. HA! I haven't seen a 3-wheeler since Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome was in the cinema and Phil Collins was all the rage and Ronald Reagan was sworn in for his second term! Way to keep up on current evens EK.

[xkred27]

That's fine..................I will go sick on ALL ULR flights.
I really don't care anymore.

[gotoindia]

Maybe that's what the VPFT was alluding to, when he said it's going to get worse before it get's better.

Saves about 5 hours of "logged stick time" per ULR times 16 sectors per day, that's 80 hours a day or 30 pilots per month, about 1.4 % productivity increase.

Congrats to all EK Pilots, you must be the most productive in the business.


GTI
:)

[Fart Master]

Believe me, if you think TCAS and TCED are sh*ts towards us, just wait till MM gets TCAS's job (Which he prob will), he will squeeze the living crap out of us, because he thinks he can run EK like he did MyTravel.

He was just about to get kicked out of his last job when he got the EK job, I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him, he's a professional schmoozer and brown noser.

Just press 2, quite frankly there's bugger all left of my career in this sh*thole for me to care about anymore.

The CV is getting dusted down.........

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

Trust me Habibis, this is true. There are also some more sh1t ideas in the pipeline. This is just the start, due to the advanced planning in crew numbers (not). When people are leaving, in what is supposed to be "difficult" economic times, EK should really wake the fu$k up.
At a time when they are asking for our help on the recruitment front, they are shafting us in the next breadth. EK, you will get no help whatsoever from us := Start treating us with some modicum of respect and we will help you. For now, no chance :=:=

SyB :zzz:

[Thazright]

(800) 255-1111

Contact the Aviation Safety Hotline (http://www.faa.gov/contact/safety_hotline/)

Arrive in USA (hopefully without incident if you're fortunate). Call eveeeeeta! Fatigue is dangerous.

Stop bending over

:mad:

[White Knight]

So how would SYD/AKL, MEL/AKL, BNE/AKL work with 3 crew?:confused:

[sanddude]

Get your selfs on the 330/340 Airbus transfer list asap:}. You will have a live:ok:. Not

[sheikhmahandy]

If they think they are short of pilots now..........they don't know what is about to hit them:mad:

Bring it!!!!:mad:

[kennedy]

I'd love to see them try!

Me thinks the SOS doctors down route would be raking it in, as we call in fatigued and unable to operate on the morning of the return flight!(4 hrs before report, according to their rules, would really screw the schedule)

LAX, SFO and IAH are knackering enough with 4 crew, certainly takes me a good 2 days to recover from the zombie mode, and still marginally unsafe to fly on the third day!

[Marooned]

just wait till MM gets TCAS's job

And wherever M&M goes his poodle and prize tw*t DM is sure to follow. :mad:

What a nightmare this place has become. So unnecessary but inevitable with the idiots they get in to run it.

What part of the 'fatigue' study said that reducing pilots on the ULRs would improve things? FUEK

[IXNAT]

if this is true.......they are going to royally screw themselves. Now if a pilot downroute gets ill, they get the crew to operate with three back (maybe that's where this idea has come from). But if a crewmember gets sick on the layover with this provision.....flight canceled, end of story. How will they compensate getting a full load of pax on the next day's flights. IF true, this is sort of like the HEAVY bag tag SNAFU.

[hopingforemirates]

On a similar thread, since Ed said that because everyone's doing ULRs, it's no longer practical to have a 79 hour 'cap' plus productivity pay. Since the 345 is no longer going to be doing ULR flights as they shift to Boeing, doesn't it make sense that we should return to the old 79 hour / month system?

[donpizmeov]

Why does the handle above remind me of the saying "Be careful what you wish for"?

The Don

[whossorrynow]

IXNAT posted:
if this is true.......they are going to royally screw themselves. Now if a pilot downroute gets ill, they get the crew to operate with three back (maybe that's where this idea has come from). But if a crewmember gets sick on the layover with this provision.....flight canceled
...

What does Emirates do when a crew member goes sick downroute on a two crew flight?

[PorkKnuckle]

A 3 crew ULR flight frees up one captain for another flight. Where will the FO come from? They'll still be begging us to tell our friends to come here for a while yet.

I'll be telling my pals to take the free ride out here for a week, for sure!

[PorkKnuckle]

By the way:


Longest planned FDP is DXB-LAX. 17hrs 30min.
With one augmenting crew member, Max FDP for the operating crew is 16hrs 45min. 16:30 divide by 6 plus 14 (FOM Ch21 p29.)
How can a single crew augment, work on all ULRs?
Or have I miscalculated?


EK's very own BM will just write us a new, load-of-sh!t FCI and "Operational Plan" permitting just a little over whatever they need to make it work, complete with all these "rules" which prevent us from being abused with 3Crew ULR flights more than, oh, three times per month or so.

Because the in-flight rest pattern is altered, it will be best for us for them to reduce the layover rest period to 24hrs again in keeping with the new plan.

Reference 3-wheelers: Has Ed been threatening the sack again?

[PorkKnuckle]

Oh one more thing.... what they gain with reduced pilot hours, they will throw away with the reduced effect of their BULL**** factoring scheme, (the father of which was the version TCAS signed on his first day on the job, don't forget that).

So the short term gain would be lost when the pilots edge closer, faster to their annual limits. Then again, I wouldn't put it past these tight-arsed rocket scientists to do exactly that... anything to save a bean and NOT pay the pilots more.

[Chandler Bing]

Nobody will report sick downroute as everybody wants to keep his job, in these troubled times.
Ed, JH, and AAB know that and they laugh together ....

As sad as it is, pilots will stay, suffer in silence, while life gets worse and worse....

Good luck

[sevenfoursharer]

An unprecedented event is occurring before us. An airline has chosen the path of total disrespect for its most important stakeholders; it’s employees. This airline, which resides in a society with little regard for civil rights and an outright prohibition on employee representation, has tried to mask this medieval exploitation by a truly magnificent marketing apparatus. This same airline however now sees its fundamental growth strategy undermined by the power of the medium you are reading. Just as the Internet has greatly improved consumer power, it is now filling up the vacuum of lacking employee representation. The truth has surfaced. The waters feeding recruitment have dried to a trickle of inexperienced and under qualified candidates. Those who published on PPrune may have played a bigger role then any individual expected.

Invictus

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll.
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

William Ernest Henley

[IXNAT]

Whososorrynow,
The majority of flights with two man crew are at destinations that have at least another flight that day. Not all but most, and therefore the damage done by a cancelled flight can be mitigated somewhat. But the ULRs, to the west only (except JFK) have one flight a day. Then when they decide to fly to ORD and other west destinations they can DH a crewmember to cover it after arrival in the destination. Well I guess they will keep the 48 hr layovers and grab a crewmember who has had 24 hours rest and shovel him onto the flight. But then there will be a 48 hour alcohol restriction and put everyone on a SBU downroute for the day before return. Oh, this should be fun to watch this unfold and all of its unentended consequences. What a mess this can and will turn into.

[whossorrynow]

Two Crew One Flight a Day Destinations:

NCL,GLA,CCU,HAM,LOS,LUE (sp?), DAR,CPT,TUN,MLA,CMN,CAN,ICN, there's probably more.

Destinations that EK can reduce from four to three crew:

GRU,IAH,JFK,YYZ. I think that's it. The Oz trips will need a further two crew to fly on to NZ so they are out of it. And I don't think they will be able to reduce the crew from four to three with a rest of less than 30 hours, I'm not sure what the present rest is on GRU & IAH, but if it's 24 hours then they should be out of it as well. Barring any rescheduling and imaginative Variations.

Forgot VCE and NCE. DUS, FCO and MUC should be included too as they are Boeing and Airbus morning and afternoon respectively.

[IXNAT]

That's all well and good, but the majority of the stations you mentioned are 5-8 hours away from DXB. A little bit different a destination 16 hours away. If you were NSC, which would you think would be easier to "fix", 300 pax in a station 8 hours away or one 17? And which flights do you think are the high value, high PR flights? It would be interesting to see what stations (ULRs or medium haul) flights have the most sick outs or fatigue outs in today's operation. Finally, can anyone name any airline in the world that would be allowed to fly or currently flies 16+ hours on a two manned a/c with only three crew members? Just curious.

Sounds to me, whossorrynow, that you don't think it's any big deal to regularly fly 16 hours with three crew. Or am I missing something?

[whossorrynow]

You miss my point, which is that for the reasons that you mention I don't think Al & Ed will consider that 4 crew down to 3 crew is a big deal.

[donpizmeov]

I think Ed has proven time and again he is not the smartest muppet in the clan. Is he referring to the summer time reduction to 3 crew members scam that has been happening on the JFK for years and gotten just a little confused? I hope so.

IXNAT does putting 300 people into a hotel cost any more 15hrs away than it does 8hrs? I think you will also find that African flights offer more yield than USA flights, so would that be considered high value? If you think you can use some form of logic as to why things happen here you are in for more surprises.

Keep recovering.

The Don

[lowstandard]

Standby for Annex 3. Single pilot ops! Do I get a cookie for that suggestion?

They will just plan the flights into discretion as they do on the Annex 2 flights.

[break dancer]

People mention 3 crew ops, but aren't stating whether it will be 1 Capt and 2 F/Os or 2 Capts and 1 F/O. It makes a bit of a difference as how many Capts are right seat qualified?

[Payscale]

That doesnt make a damn difference. You will get just as tired if you were a captain.. we are talking safety not your command upgrade on this thread

[pintofstella]

Just heard it's because of a real crew shortage. They are having big probs because of the continued resignations!!!!

[fatbus]

Seem to recall JFK on the 345 with 3 pilots and you could only handle a 15 min delay before discretion, cant see LAX,IAH or SFO be able to be done with 3. I could see EK doing JFK and YYZ with 3 for the summer and the 777 might be able to do MEL a bit faster then the 345 and as such 3 pilots.

[CAVnotOK]

I think it is about time that EK Crew stop extending duties at the expectation of the Company, but only in extenuating circumstances where it is reasonable to do so.

Not where a duty has been planned within 5 mins of the FDP Limit and any regular delay occurs, especially when the flight has already been planned under one of the Variations.

After all, it is Commanders Discretion....... isn't it? Not Company Discretion.

CAV

[skyvan]

Can anyone tell me if the doctors that SOS send out to the crew are AMEs, or just GPs?

Reason I ask, is if a AME books you as unfit, you really cannot fly, but if a GP says you are unwell, there is a window for "someone" to attempt to browbeat you into working back.

I heard (third hand, like so many stories about this place) it happened recently, and the poor FO, who was ill, was apparantly quite useless on the trip home, and the Captain had to carry the load.

[High 6]

If they get in a corner, they could still go down the road of having second officers like CX/QF.

This would entail hiring pilots with something like 1000 hrs on turbo props who will only fly as in flight relief (either seat) for approx 3 years before doing an F/O rating on type. They would not be allowed to be at the controls below 10,000 feet and need to do landings in the sim to maintain recency. It would still not help if someone goes sick down route on a 3 man ULR, but would ensure that the operation is maintained. There would be no shortage of takers from the market on this scheme.

Another thought given to me by a fly on the wall... the GCAA is very concerned with the fatigue issue in EK and after the MEL event they have been under some pressure as to their own ability to monitor and govern EK activities. How can we use that to our advantage?

The show goes on... and on ... and bloody on!!

[BigGeordie]

Each ULR pairing has its own little annex in the FTL part of the FOM. All they need to do is "modify" the annex to make the pairings legal with three pilots. The GCAA will rubber stamp it and Emirates will get about 6 months out of it before the stack of fatigue ASRs becomes too large to ignore. Meanwhile they will cross their fingers that there aren't any fatigue related "incidents". Especially in Australia.

[Schibulsky]

the GCAA is very concerned with the fatigue issue in EK
thats a good one!!:ok:

[Capt Roo]

Even simpler solution.

Merge with EY and use their pilots. No problem any more.:eek:

[CanadaKid]

I've experimented with the electronic FDP playing 'what-if' on some random ULR sectors.
There's not much leeway (if any, on some sectors) for 3 pilot ops before discretion is required.
Unless as has been stated before, the "rules" are changed.

cheers, CK

[EK380]

Canadakid.... :ugh:

One more time, FDP rules do NOT apply to ULR flights!
ULR flights are looked at individually and approved by the GCAA

[CanadaKid]

There is a generic plan for ULR flights approved by the GCAA
but since the FDP has allowances for rest taken and number of crew it is
a useful tool. Would you use it for flights up to 14 hrs. as anything in excess is considered ULR flight?

cheers, CK