How do you purchase your own plane??

[HappyBandit]

Been interested to hear how ppl buy their own wings. Do you get a loan like you would if buying a car? Then where do you look to buy? And is putting it on a training school the way to go in recovering most of the costs? Interested to hear from drivers that actually own their own plane.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Now this could be interesting!

Dr :8

[KING PIN]

yup i am going to keep an eye on this topic.. good question by the way

[Horatio Leafblower]

If you need to put it on line to make it pay, you can't afford it.

It will be either broken or booked every time you want to use it.

The f#$%wits flying it generally won't look after it at all and even if they do, the fact is that "fair wear and tear" will happen much quicker when it is accruing hours quicker.

Work out what sort of aeroplane you want for 90% of your flying. Research the types available in that class - there will usually be a couple of Cessnas, a couple of Pipers, and a couple of "others".

Narrow it down to one type then do all the research on that type and the maintenance issues commonly found, mods available, maintenance schedules, engine & prop overhaul costs. Make sure you identify a couple of LAMEs who can maintain it for you and make sure they ACTUALLY HAVE the licence coverage and aircraft data on the premises.

When I think about all the little things that have burnt me, it's a wonder I have any fingers left to type this... :uhoh:

[The_Pharoah]

OR if you're a CPL, you can always set up a sight seeing business to allow you to claim some of the costs back for tax purposes. beats leaving it with flying schools. :ok:

[SM227]

Thats interesting Pharoah, how do you do that? I thought you needed an AOC? If you dont, then what else can a CPL do without operating under an AOC?

What sort of difference in operating costs would there be between fixed and retract, big engine and little engine, like these in particular: C182, C182RG, C206, PA32-260 and 300, anyone have rough figures of ownership costs of these types, and the pros and cons? What difference in maintence and other costs does maintaining the plane in the charter category and IFR incur?

[Joker 10]

Do not put a privately owned aircraft under the care of ANY other person, it will get wrecked.

Similar to buying a Ferrari and giving it to the local independent car hire company to manage for you, an insane concept.

Wise words are if you cannot pay cash for it, don't do it !!

I own 2 and neither has ever been on line with any operator and my serviceability issues are always minor and corrected easily , annual costs are predictable and insurance premiums reasonable for risk level associated with private operation.

[The_Pharoah]

Hey SM

I don't know what the requirements are in order to get an AOC or whether you would need an AOC at all to run a small part time business doing joy flights. The accounting/tax side of this I can advise on though which is doable but dependant on the amount of income you actually get.

[43Inches]

How do you purchase your own plane??
A lot has changed in regard to operating costs since I last owned an aircraft but the basic rules don't.

Start with lots of research, as has been said before know exactly what you want and have a good idea of what it costs to operate. Also don't plan on components such as engines/props/landing gear etc, regularly making it to expected overhaul time (especially older aircraft operating on multiple life parts). Have a large contingency fund built in to your costs.

All aircraft are different and even those of the same type may have large variations in fitments/personality which will affect cost of operation. For instance Cessna 152 have a number of different options for engines/carby/mag/prop combination, some may have lower TBO's & higher service costs than others, all for the same (or less) power output.

Anything with retractable gear is more expensive to insure and maintain.

Having a training aircraft online with the right flying school can be rewarding and pay itself off. If it is damaged the insurance will cover it (or the hirer if doing something they shouldn't). There will be increased wear to an extent due to use however under-utilisation of aircraft can lead to expensive problems as well. Don't buy a non-training aircraft (big singles PA32/Bonanza, turbo-charged types and any twin except maybe a PA44) and expect it to pay for itself in this way, it will get trashed.

Get to know an engineer who you can trust to do pre-purchase inspections, they can often find some interesting history in the books.

The Aviation Trader has listings for Aircraft Sales via dealers and private sale.

Banks will loan funds for aircraft best to shop around for best deals and rates. There are also aircraft financing specialists around.

Insurance can be tricky and expensive and varies greatly with planned usage, the aviation trader again has who to call.

[Horatio Leafblower]

OR if you're a CPL, you can always set up a sight seeing business to allow you to claim some of the costs back for tax purposes. beats leaving it with flying schools.

...well... you might set up a company to own the aircraft for tax minimisation purposes. This would be a paper-thin fascade, however, and the Tax Office are pretty good at sticking their fingers through paper to see what lies behind.

If you want to do sight-seeing it's a Charter function. You could set up an AOC for about $5,000 assuming you have all the reqts to be a Chief Pilot for your operation per CAO 82.x

:hmm:

Look at the rates flying schools advertise for their aircraft. If you can't afford the private hire rates, you can't afford to own the aircraft. [b]YES[b] your total costs as private owner should be less... but there is aways potential for a nasty surprise lurking somewhere :=

If you pay yourself the "private hire" rate for each hour you fly the aircraft, put that money away and don't touch it, you should be able to cover everything.

Good luck and caveat emptor.

[BoundaryLayer]

I haven't personally been through the process however a friend recently purchased a Piper. Not sure how you would finance it, but he dipped into the equity in his house to get the cash.

One thing he did do was thoroughly check that there was no existing finance on it, or he could have ended up owning the debt too if there was any.

Aside from that he did a test flight, got a maintenance check done, a bit of haggling, got the money, then did the deal. Ongoing costs now are interest payments, insurance, inspections/maintenance, hangarage, etc.

[Pedota]

HappyBandit

Even though the first edition of this book was produced 25 years ago and was written for the American market, it remains a very good reference for the question you asked. Many of the aircraft may have changed (and many haven’t!), but it still provides a sensible framework to arrive at a sensible answer for you.

James E. Ellis Buying and Owning Your Own Airplane 1991 (2nd Edition), Iowa State University Press, ISBN 0-8138-0168-0.

The chapters are:

1. Can I? Should I?
2. Partnerships, clubs and leasebacks
3. Selecting a home field
4. Selecting your airplane
5. Taking possession: paper and red tape
6. Insurance: the expensive enigma
7. Maintenance and miscellany
8. Engine operating practices and overhauls
9. Good aircraft for the first time owner
10. Taildraggers and other traditional airplanes
11. High-performance singles: fulfilling the dream

Copies are available through Amazon – and the same link also recommends some similar books Amazon.com: Buying and Owning Your Own Airplane (9780813801704): James E. Ellis: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Buying-Owning-Your-Own-Airplane/dp/0813801702)

Hope that helps

Cheers

Pedota

[Jabawocky]

12 posts and nobody has stated the obvious...........

If it Flies, Floates or F:mad:'s .....rent it, its cheaper by the hour!

Privately owned a Bonanza or similar will cost you $250-$350 an hour. A 172 probably 2/3's of that.

I do have some spread sheets and data you can get a guide from if you wish to contact me.

Joker 10 makes a good point. Horatio Leafie makes a better one......... Pay yourself every hour, into the bank. We run our plane like a business, and the funds accumulate for the big expenses one day. If you sell it, that covers the gap over what it was worth then compared to now!:ok:

[Atlas Shrugged]

How do you purchase your own plane??

Start with a large fortune and turn it into a small one!

[Rich-Fine-Green]

HB:

Read all these posts, however I suggest you don't form an opinion based on pprune only.

Go to your local airfield, talk to some real aircraft owners and get their opinions.

If in the end it still feels right, go for it and have fun.

[Capt Fathom]

Thread here on aircraft running costs (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/381817-calling-all-aircraft-owners-fixed-costs.html) from last year!

[Frank Arouet]

Don't buy an aircraft with a fresh 100 Hrly. It is "not" a warranty of serviceability for the next 100 hours, or one year.

The duty of care under common law of the LAME is "to" the individual or owner commissioning the inspection, "not" the buyer. If the vendor is the LAME watch out!

Do and pay for your own final purchase inspection to whatever schedule the aircraft is maintained to and that LAME owes "you" that duty of care. If you can't afford that, you can't afford to own an aeroplane.

If the aircraft is not local, offer to pay the vendor his fuel costs to bring it to you for initial inspection, or meet him half way. This proves both bona fides and seriousness of purpose. Do the initial swapping of photo's before hand and don't make a fool of yourself by making an offer over the phone without first inspecting the machine.

Do a company search to find out who the principals are. If any are ex Military, ex CAX, or ex Bueaucrats, or Politicians, tread very carefully as they "could" be "protected species" under the CASA umberella. (ignore this advice at your peril).

Shared ownership makes so much sense but causes so many problems. If you have a common purpose, such as training, be prepared contracturally to share the losses. I doubt there will be any profits. I have owned 5 and shared 4. Never made a quid out of any.

[rcoight]

Whatever you do, don't buy "more" aircraft than you really need.

What may seem like a small increase in size / speed / complexity / purchase price can result in HUGE differences in your maintenance bill, especially if anything goes wrong.

I would say one of the most important things to work out is what are you going to use it for 90% of the time and buy something that suits that purpose.
Don't buy something bigger & faster just because you might once a year want to go to the other side of the country if the rest of the time you're just flying around your local patch.

Work out how much you are prepared to spend and then spend no more than 75% of that number on actually buying the aircraft.

Good luck!!

[Clearedtoreenter]

Very very rough figures? say doing 100hrs/yr

Keeping it somewhere cheap (not a GAAP!! - add 7kish for that by the time you pay hangarage, tower and usage fees)

2 seat single 12k/year (E.g. 152)
4 seat single 15K/year (E.g. 172)
4 seat 6 cyl const speed $22K (E.g. 182)
6 cyl complex const speed retrac 30K (E.g. Bonanza, big Mooney)

Twins? Think of a (big) number - then double it.

On-line? Operating costs go up massively revenue goes up a bit. You only get some cost recovery but the more hours they do the more you make -until something big gets broken (which it will) or becomes due. Then you're well and truely....

[sprocket check]

Just a question to the left, does anyone hire aircraft registered as experimental? Such as Lancairs, warbirds, any homebuilts, etc..

sc

[M14_P]

Sprocket, yes you can and I'm sure many do, one must be careful with how the machine is used if it isn't certified of course. Generally, experimental machines can only be used for the purchase of converting pilots on the type in question.

As some others have said, i think the biggest question is what does one want out of owning the machine? Work out what you want, and then set about how you are going to get it. Personally, I can't be bothered with certified aeroplanes and setting up full fledgling businesses, too much stress, too much money, and if one isn't careful it all gets out of control and the fun quickly vanishes...
Our machine is experimental, and my next purchase will definately be experimental for the same reasons!

And it can work, loaning the machine to a flying school, as long as you do the instructing in it! :confused:

[sprocket check]

Cleared is right. 100 hours seems to be the break even point between hiring and owning. The up side-always there for you.

Downside-if you want to fly anything else, you'll be still having to pay for it.


M14-what's your aircraft type?

sc

[M14_P]

Sprocket, We own a Pitts S1.Our goal is also 100hrs flying per year, good number to work towards for a variety of reasons.

cheers,




m14

[Kulwin Park]

I'm interested like Happy Bandit's original post too ... and just wondering the processes involved from someone who has been through the purchase riot :}

So like buying a car, what are all the checks required until handing over the coins??

Research various models you like ...
Get a Pre-Purchase done, preferably by 2 seperate engineers.
Logbook research on remaining times and future maintenance.
If going ahead with purchase, how do you find if money owed on it??
What are the companies that are out there for insurance?
Is there a section with CASA that make rego change easy?
Maybe get finance approved too - whose best for plane purchasing?
what others have I missed out that i need to look at if i buy soon ... ??Thanks, KP :oh:

[Clearedtoreenter]

So like buying a car, what are all the checks required until handing over the coins??

Research various models you like ... yep... but most are so old now and choice is quite limited so you may not get the exact model or year you want and will probably end up compromising if you find something you like in good nick
Get a Pre-Purchase done, preferably by 2 seperate engineers. Why two? Just make sure you have confidence in whoever does it - find out who is reputable and who is not. Some LAME's are good at what they do but quite 'unprofessional' and quite justifiably scared of being sued. Watch carefully. Be wary of what is not properly documented e.g. damage history
Logbook research on remaining times and future maintenance. Should be essential part of any PPI.
If going ahead with purchase, how do you find if money owed on it?? Tricky! CASA only record the cert of reg holder and registered operator. Some banks insist their name goes down as cert of reg holder but CASA registration does not prove clear title at all. If in doubt you might need to undertake some kind of title search and investigate the seller. (rare to find problems but not impossible).
What are the companies that are out there for insurance? Basically only three: QBE Aviation, Asset Insure and Alliance(?) There are many brokers but they all go to the same insurers - once one company has quoted to one broker - thats it, they wont negotiate with anyone else and you're stuck with that quote and that broker. So if a broker gets you quotes from all three....(stinks!)
Is there a section with CASA that make rego change easy? Yes, all forms are on th CASA website (aircraft register) - costs rip off $160.. you need similar proof of identity as for an ASIC. You need the previous cert of reg holder to sign his art of the form. Then get forms from Airservices and Avdata to make sure bills come to you:).
Maybe get finance approved too - whose best for plane purchasing? You'd have to be nuts to lend or borrow money on an aircraft IMHO but have sold several planes to people who have gone directly to the major banks.
what others have I missed out that i need to look at if i buy soon ... ?? That should do it... be patient and you get what you pay for (at best). Very cheap planes are usually cheap for a reason. Be wary of brokers.... Mostly they are straight if rather self interested.

[Ian Baker]

You should buy a Recreational Aircraft. There are many places on the internet with suitable friendly information about them, just google Recreational Flying for more information. Much cheaper than GA type.

[Fantome]

For insurance, check out OAMPS as well.

[Kulwin Park]

Thanks Clearedtoreentor. Good answers. :ok: especially one about insurance companies!

So does anyone else out there have any warnings or tips?
KP

[kingtoad]

Cost of Periodic Inspections (100 hrly/annual)

Fixed gear single = 20 hours labour
Retract single = 24 hours labour

Most maint. places in this part the country seem to charge $85 ex GST per hour

Rectifications of faults found during inspections are additional.

One annual we did about a year ago on a C150 turned out to be about $10K because the thing had been let go a fair bit. It needed alot of control cables replaced due corrosion. It's txpndr needed repairs. It needed $1500 worth of new exhaust parts, a new gascolator bowl etc etc etc. And what was the whole aeroplane worth???

Buy a common Cessna or a Piper - most maint. places will have the data for these and a good range of spares too.

If it's in charter category, its engine & associated components must be overhauled at the required intervals. If in Airwork or Private category then engine can run on condition. Some LAMEs have a problem signing out engines past manufacturers TBO - especially under some hangarkeepers insurance policies. Insurance for charter category is greater because you need a minimum of $1M per passenger liability cover too.

Keeping it IFR means that a LAME with Electrical, Instrument and Avionics Licences must sign it out at each periodic inspection and any at maintenance that is in these categories. If the aircraft is VFR then your Airframe LAME can sign it out for periodics.

[sprocket check]

kingtoad:

Some good info there, though 4-5k for a simple, single engine non retractable is excessive. I have seen aircraft come from a 100 hourly costing 9k looking and flying worse than before it. It seems maintenance in this country has slipped a looong way down in quality. It is more about stacking the hours and covering ass than providing good service and serviceability. CASA also don't help by keeping the club exclusive.

Avionics as has been mentioned elsewhere is another story altogether.

Maybe I should be seriously looking at building/buying experimental.

[CHAIRMAN]

Maintenance is something that has to be done right.
In my years of ownership maintenance experience, I have found that the critical thing is a good working relationship with your maintenance outfit.
Sure, I have paid more than I should have at times when a new LAME has been employed, and had to learn my particular aircraft 'on the job', at my expense.
A discussion with the owner will usually result in a reduced bill next time. I've always paid, but made my dissatisfaction clear.
Over time you will build up a good relationship, and if the LAME's are on the ball, the bills will be reasonable.
Tips I can offer are:
Don't take a complicated twin into somewhere that mainly does simple singles - you will pay for the guys to learn on the job.
Get recommendations from other owners.
Most LAME's realise you are the one paying their wages - be reasonable and so will they. If they're incapable, then find someone else.
I have taken the step in the past to tell an owner that I don't want xxxx working on my aircraft. Usually that person won't be working there much longer because either other customers tell the owner or the owner wakes up all by him/herself.
There is no substitute for long term relationships with your maintenance outfit. Moving from pillar to post will always cost you a bomb, at least the first time.

[Ian Baker]

Owner maintenance under RA-Aus guidance would be much cheaper for you. You should consider this carefully before you buy

[PA39]

:\ The cheapest part about "owning" an aircraft is buying the bloody thing.
Maintenance (scheduled and unscheduled) Insurance, hangarage (If you can't afford a hangar you can't afford an aircraft.....Christ you put your Commodore in a shed! Operating costs, landing fees, twr fees enroute fees (IFR) etc etc.
My first question to someone asking for advice on aircraft ownership is " Can you afford it?" You must look at the fixed costs and the variable costs.

Second question is "What are you going to do with it?" Will you be flying it for business or pleasure for more than 100hr per yr.

Finance: Buy outright, lease, Comm HP, Chattel mortgage, secured loan (security over real estate) and others.

Don't let your heart rule your head, answer honestly and if you can't REALLY justify it.....continue to hire. It is an expensive business, not a game.