QF Direct Entry / Flight Deck Visit [Archive]

rodrigues

8th Jan 2010, 23:43

Hi Guys,

Firstly, I was lucky enough to sit in the skippers seat upon arrival at our gate in Brisbane yesterday, having a look at the flight deck, and a conversation with the FO. A sincere thankyou to the QF crew, Skipper and FO for being so inviting and open. For someone grinding out their CPL, it was easily the most motivating experience to date. Highly recommend it to anyone in the midst of their Commercial training, a really good source of inspiration to keep up the hard work.

Secondly, (and I understand there's no movement into QF at the moment) in relation to QF's direct entry minima, is the advertised 500 fixed-wing command a realistic figure? Or does a competitive application include 1000 Single-Command and X hours twin? As someone on the brink of an Instructor Rating, I'm logically trying to assess my options and determine my best angle of attack. Would love to hear from any successful SO's, and the position from which they joined QF.

Thanks in advance, and a Happy new year to all.

rodrigues :ok:

Howard Hughes

9th Jan 2010, 00:21

I know several who have started with less than 1000 hours (mostly single), none in the last two years though!:ok:

The Green Goblin

9th Jan 2010, 01:23

For your own sake get out there and get some flying experience regardless of what QF will take you with.

Being an SO for 3 or so years sitting up the back and occasionally sitting in the seat with the autopilot on is not the way to enhance (or maintain) your flying skills. (I often wonder how SO's even manage to keep their IFR approach skills accurate) If you have not got out there and honed your skill and seen a bit of the country I can imagine aviation becoming a very laborious experience very quickly!

And what else have you got to talk about on all those hours of boredom other than the cool stuff you used to do :ooh:

morno

9th Jan 2010, 01:46

What is it with the pilots coming through flying schools in the last few years? All they wanna know is how to get to Qantas in the quickest fashion.

My suggestion rodrigues, go out and earn yourself a couple of thousand hours first, doing GA charter. Don't do instructing, at least not for the first 1-2,000hrs anyway. You're only doing your students a dis-service by not actually having any experience to pass onto them.

You'll thoroughly enjoy GA (provided you're not a whinging little mummy's boy who only wants the best), and the experience you'll walk away from GA with is priceless. Unless you're in your mid 30's, then I don't see what the rush is to get to Qantas or Virgin.

morno

rodrigues

9th Jan 2010, 03:38

eocvictim

9th Jan 2010, 04:55

I have to agree with you. If thats what you want then go for it. If you like the idea of instructing then go for that too! It's a lot of fun, you will learn so much along the way without picking up bad habbits like a lot of guys who jump headfirst into GA. Of course the usual, make sure you want to do it blah blah...

Tempo

9th Jan 2010, 05:59

Rodriguez,

what's with the hostility directed towards any wannabee who shows a direct enthusiasm towards joining an airline, or shooting for a cadetship etc?

What....hostility on pprune....never....;)

Seriously, there is nothing wrong with having enthuasism to join an airline. I would bet the majority of pilots out there have the ultimate ambition to get into the LHS of a jet some day (even if they wont admit it).

In answer to your question....QF have taken all sorts of people over the years with a wide range of experience. I know of a number of guys who joined with under 1000hours and those that applied many times and were not taken until they had 1000's of hours turbine. I guess it's supply and demand, how well you with the testing and as always, a bit of luck.

From a personal point of view, I first did testing for QF back in 2000 with 700 hours or so. At the time I didn't make it through the skills and psych. I got a 'apply again in 2 years' letter so I left my instructing job and went and did charter (single & multi). When I applied 2 years later I got the gig (hired 3 years almost to the day after I got the reject letter the first time).

Looking back I think I was a much better candidate the second time round....more experience etc. Looking back I also have no regrets with missing out the first time...I really enjoyed my time in GA (I would have enjoyed it more if I knew I would eventually get out of GA).

Saying all this, if you want to get into an airline...apply asap. Just because you apply does not mean you will get in. If you do, great. If not, take it as it comes. Speak to anyone in the industry and they will say that airlines have window's of opportunity to join....when the window is open....great. When it closes...it may close for a long time.

Good luck

Howard Hughes

9th Jan 2010, 07:07

My advice would be, if you want to be in an airline, get there as fast as you can! Why spend extra time in GA, when you could be building up seniority?

If you don't like it you can always buy an RV or Pitts later...:ok:

rodrigues

9th Jan 2010, 07:35

My advice would be, if you want to be in an airline, get there as fast as you can! Why spend extra time in GA, when you could be building up seniority?

Exactly right.

The Green Goblin

9th Jan 2010, 08:21

Just a quick question, what's with the hostility directed towards any wannabee who shows a direct enthusiasm towards joining an airline, or shooting for a cadetship etc? I've got my own views, and agree with the value of GA, but I fully support a trainee who is specifically aiming to join the big boys, and cites that ambition as the reason they got into flying.

I doubt many pilots grew up as kids staring at Cessna's flying overhead thinking 'man I want to fly one of those one day'

We all signed up thinking of the life of an Airline Pilot, flying to faraway lands, earning top dollar, walking down the street in uniform like Leonardo Dicaprio in catch me if you can - uniform on - raybans checked - getting perved on by the girls. Glamorous trolly dollys pouring us coffee in the flight deck and after a successful flight drinking whiskey till the early hours on a layover........ with a happy ending and no strings attached........

Then we start our training and fall in love with the art of flying an aeroplane. That 40 year old Cessna becomes a thing of beauty and the squillions of hours on the airframe don't really seem to matter. Single Pilot operations in remote areas with stunning coastlines, mountain ranges, unruly passengers and comradery with your flying buddies become the happiest time of your life. Being broke is kind of fun and when you go home on holidays your mates who are earning squillions on the mines always look after you :ugh:

As we are more exposed to the industry we realize the pay 'aint really that great at the top anymore. The conditions are getting worse while the hours are getting even more fatiguing particularly if you fly domestic. The job security is not really there and the word from management is always doom and gloom.

Oh and the trolly dollys? well.........jump in the back of a QF cabin these days particularly the 767 fleet and have a look. The reason why knitting needles are now not a prohibited item is half the cabin crew need 'em :E

It's like saying someone who gets a shot at the AIS for Cricket, should ignore that and spend a few years at their local cricket club slogging it out instead

But you 'aint going to get into AIS cricket without spending many years at the local cricket club learning your vocation and honing your skill - and plenty of practice :p

Tempo

9th Jan 2010, 10:12

The Green Goblin

9th Jan 2010, 10:31

Rod,

Don't get caught up in all this doom and gloom talk (like the above post), an airline career is bloody good fun and QF still pays the best in this country. It certainly beats busting your ass in GA getting paid bugger all.

I'm not saying don't chase the Airline job, hell I am too (when my bond is up) :p Just enjoy the journey getting there. I certainly am!

ab33t

9th Jan 2010, 20:15

Not much movement anywhere at the moment

Howard Hughes

9th Jan 2010, 20:46

I know of several people who have had (or are having) interviews and who have been offered positions with the majors in the last month (excluding QF).:ok:

fasterblaster

9th Jan 2010, 21:42

Yeah I know of people getting interviews and gigs with jetstar and virgin. They did have multi crew, twin turbo prop over 5700kg experience. Think they are starting at the top.

Captain Nomad

10th Jan 2010, 00:04

From someone who I used to know who applied to QANTAS under the '500hrs' category but got in with a few more hours than that, if it is what you want, apply when you meet the minimums to apply.

Don't necessarily wait until later when you think you have more like the minimums that they want because one of the questions you will probably get on an interview will be: "Why didn't you apply when you got 500 hours?" They are fishing to see how dedicated you are. Applying when you meet the minimums and updating as necessary will show that you are keen.

eocvictim

10th Jan 2010, 03:36

And the quick answer to that question is "I didn't think I was mature enough."

Super Cecil

10th Jan 2010, 04:23

GG saidWe all signed up thinking of the life of an Airline Pilot, flying to faraway lands, earning top dollar, walking down the street in uniform
I know it's very hard to believe but not everybody thinks Flying with backstabbers for longer hours being paid less and less money working with mercenary managers for airlines that think pilots are all prima donna's and there's plenty lined up to pay to for training to take your job flying for less wages is the ultimate job :}
Or have I got the tone of most posters on prune wrong?

rodrigues

11th Jan 2010, 07:52

Thanks to all for the feeback/info...

hongkongfooey

11th Jan 2010, 11:34

Rod, I think you will find the minimum of 500hrs is mainly directed at RAAF guys, there is nothing wrong with being keen, enthusiastic and optimistic but at the same time if you are not realistic you will be in for a big letdown.
You would be VERY lucky to get into QF in the next few years with 500hrs, contrary to some posters here indicating they know people who have. Things change quicly in this industry, but I think the days of QF needing to drop their actual minimums to 500hrs are a fair way off.
All the best
HKF

rodrigues

12th Jan 2010, 00:06

You would be VERY lucky to get into QF in the next few years with 500hrs

That's exactly what I'd thought. Good point raised by Capt Nomad, if one was to apply at 1000+ hours, surely they would question why you didn't apply at the base prerequisite.

Guess it can be hard to differentiate between what they advertise, and what they really want.

Trent 972

12th Jan 2010, 02:15

Rod,
What they do consider is, if your total hours are commensurate with your age. 500 hours command is sufficient if you're aged in your teens but if you're a bit older with minimal hours, you'd have to have a bloody good 'Song and Dance' act to impress the panel.

b_sta

12th Jan 2010, 03:49

500 hours command in your teens? Slight exaggeration there I would think!

As for being 'a bit older' with less hours, one would expect that most older pilots with hours on the lesser end of the spectrum would have such out there reasoning as, you know, having been working in a previous career :ugh:

Trent 972

12th Jan 2010, 05:19

Thankyou for your correction b_sta. I'll let the 19 year old with 900 hours that I had dinner with recently know that he is a superstar. Bye the bye, I was one of those late starters in QF at just over 30 years of age, but then I had 10,000+ hours by then. I can't think of too many QF drivers who joined with a low hours to age ratio after having a previous career (excepting military pilots). There may be a few but I guess they had a good 'Song and Dance' routine. (They probably didn't fail BAK TWICE either, hey b_sta. Here's one :ugh: just for you.)

b_sta

12th Jan 2010, 06:24

Lesson 1: Anecdotal evidence does not constitute a population sample, Trent 972. Perhaps you should have spent a few of those years before you turned 30 getting a tertiary education. :rolleyes:

Trent 972

12th Jan 2010, 06:39

OK you win b_sta, your d!ck's bigger than mine.
Pity it's in the middle of your forehead.

.......the spectrum would have such out there reasoning as,......
????????? Try a little of your own advice.
*b_sta: It’s not sarcasm, it’s illiteracy, you knob.
**Now you're calling me "son". I didn't realise it was you mum, sorry.
*** Intelligent discussion -sure, just let me know when you're about to start.

Captain Nomad

12th Jan 2010, 06:45

You would be VERY lucky to get into QF in the next few years with 500hrs, contrary to some posters here indicating they know people who have.

If you read my post carefully, I was NOT suggesting that you would necessarily get into QF with 500hrs, only that one should probably APPLY when they meet the minimums.

I personally don't know anyone who DID get into QF with 500hrs but as I said I do know of a couple of pilots who did get in a number of years ago with not a whole lot more than that. One of them was an 'older' applicant who HADN'T put in an application when he first met minimums and was subsequently questioned on that point.

Information to be added to the thought process - that's all I'm offering. I'm more than willing to add emphasis to the point that you would have to be naive to think you will get an airline job with 500hrs as that is extremely rare and entirely dependant on the state of the industry and an individual's suitability and timing.

What recruiters do like to see though, is an application with susequent updates showing how you are advancing yourself even before you get a shot with them.

rodrigues

12th Jan 2010, 06:53

Captain Nomad - Gotcha...

I'm turning 23 this year, perhaps be 24/25 by the time I'd apply...

b_sta

12th Jan 2010, 07:01

?????????
Try a little of your own advice.

That quote of mine would be sarcasm, you idiot. Clearly most with a late start in accumulation of hours are likely to have been working in non-aviation careers previously, unless you're under the impression that the unemployed of 10+ years magically materialise the cash for flying training out of nowhere.

The point I was getting at is that although you may know some teens with hours in the high hundreds, that's certainly not the norm. And with regards to older age/lower hours acceptance into QF, I was not stating that it's a likely scenario - only that many 'older' pilots would have a very good reason for not having started flying fresh out of grade 10 (though that said, there have been a number of posts on this very forum as of late detailing pilots with late starts in the industry who, despite this, are now driving jets).

Captain Nomad

12th Jan 2010, 07:01

You would still be 5+ years younger at application than the 'older' applicant that I mentioned. Definitely not too old to have that as a goal. However, as other posters have pointed out, it can be tough and unfortunately, no matter how good you are, it also depends on a lot of other factors as to whether you 'get lucky' or not.

Have goals but also be realistic and have some other backup plans. You can also spend a very long time on 'hold' files too, so work on other ways to progress your career in the meantime.

Trent 972

12th Jan 2010, 07:19

Rod, The average 24/25 year old that started in QF in the last round a couple of years ago, had, around 1,500 to 2,000 hours experience, but as others have said there is no hard and fast rule. It depends on the individual candidate and all their other attributes.
Good Luck

ps.
Go away b_sta, you're an annoying little twerp.

rodrigues

12th Jan 2010, 07:37

Appreciate the realistic advice guys, many thanks...

One thing I forgot to put out there is the nature of those hours...Single Instructional time? But I guess at anything below 1000hrs, it'd be unrealistic to expect more than Single time...

b_sta

12th Jan 2010, 07:42

b_sta: It’s not sarcasm, it’s illiteracy, you knob.

Well, it certainly is illiteracy on your behalf, I suppose.

ps.
Go away b_sta, you're an annoying little twerp.

Intelligent discussion a little too tough for your feeble mind, son?

Trent 972

12th Jan 2010, 08:10

Single time is fine Rod. QF spend a lot of time and money in the sims to give you the skills you'll need.
(There is not a single or light twin out there that will give you the feel for a 747/330/380.)

On second thought
A380 = Cessna 172
747 = Mack truck
A330 = a large bowl of jelly

clear to land

12th Jan 2010, 09:04

For b-sta's benefit, by the time I was 20 I had 1600hrs, and was working with 6 guys who had over 2000 by their 20th! (and that was in 1988.)

seavenom

12th Jan 2010, 10:07

Two guys that I know have recently been called up by QantasLink for FO gigs. They didn't get the call by not putting in their applications!!! Go for it and good luck.

morno

12th Jan 2010, 10:51

b_sta,
I had 1,000hrs when I turned 20, and I'm now 24 with over 3,000hrs. Know quite a few others who are in similar boats.

morno

rodrigues

1st Mar 2010, 07:41

Sorry to dig this one up again guys...

Just reviewing the QF Direct Entry criteria (They're not recruiting at the moment, I know, I know) and noticed there's no mention made of ATPL subjects. Is this no longer a pre-requisite?

flyplane83

4th Mar 2010, 05:26

My experience is that those that dont do the time and learn to fly planes before they get into an airline as an FO cant think for themselves. They then potentially become very incompetant Captains down the track! Being a very inexperienced FO in an airline is going to give you seniority over someone who went out in GA did the time and came in with a few thousand hours on top of you...

ules

4th Mar 2010, 13:03

great thread guys .. enjoying and learning. :ok:

rodrigues

4th Mar 2010, 22:18

Being a very inexperienced FO in an airline is going to give you seniority over someone who went out in GA did the time and came in with a few thousand hours on top of you...

Then who, in this scenario, is the smart one?! Is the inexperienced FO supposed to feel bad because he didn't slug it out in GA for an extra 3 years?

I understand what you're saying, that said, for many their primary objective in Aviation is quite simply to end up in an airline. Let's face it, the majority of GA consists of :mad: conditions and even :mad:'er locations. So if getting into an airline remains your lifelong objective, why would you make yourself wait a day longer than your have too? Particularly in QF, where seniority is king.

Keg

4th Mar 2010, 22:28

My experience is that those that dont do the time and learn to fly planes before they get into an airline as an FO cant think for themselves.

So, what experience would that be?

blueloo

5th Mar 2010, 00:56

My experience is that those that dont do the time and learn to fly planes before they get into an airline as an FO cant think for themselves.

Oh dear, its turned into a Willy measuring contest already.

Personally, my view on this matter, is anyone with such a myopic view as this is a big worry.

Piltdown Man

5th Mar 2010, 12:48

My experience is that those that dont do the time and learn to fly planes before they get into an airline as an FO cant think for themselves.

Not my experience mate. The new guys I fly with are straight from school with 250 hours or so and their flying is excellent (F50/70/100 E190). But there again, flying is the easy bit. The guys who have the problems are the F/O's who do don't participate in running the show and just do enough to get by, year after year. 1,000's of hours in logbooks are just numbers and in many cases, 1 hour's experience a thousand times over.

PM

newjetpilot

3rd Apr 2010, 10:23

For starters, I love what I do and I wouldn't give it away for anything in the world. I am an airline pilot in oz with a major carrier and I am not in any way ashamed to say that it is not QF!! I MUST say this though, throughout the days I was doing the hard yards getting my commercial, doing my IREX, ATPL ect I always envied the guys who I knew where younger than me getting slots in airlines. I didn't get my CPL till I was in my mid to late 20's, I am now in my early thirties and I am now an airline jet captain with a major carrier and it's not Tiger. Having said that, now that I am in my position I no longer envy the young guys getting into airlines I feel sorry for them, especially ones who are QF cadets or SO's. If you are a person who got into flying to earn heaps of money and do very little you are in the wrong game. Although a QF A380 SO earns similar to what I do, I wouldn't change place with him or in QF's case "her" for anything in the world. I couldn't think of anything worse than sitting in the back of an A380 for 15 hours listening to some fat, full of his own importance sheltered prick telling me how QF is the best airline with the best pilots and best service in the world to know that to get anywhere in my career I would have to go to Jetstar anyway on half the pay and conditions to get a seat change. My advice to people out there is to get GA experience because lets face it you can never go back, enjoy it because believe me, when there is two of you on the flight deck generally 8/10 times you will revert to the GA stories and you'll have many a laughs with each other.

Capt Fathom

3rd Apr 2010, 10:43

Full moon was several days ago!

What a strange post newjetpilot! Did you get knocked back from QF?

I am in my position I no longer envy the young guys getting into airlines I feel sorry for them

If you're not in their position, you're not in a position to comment on how they should feel!

:uhoh:

Keg

3rd Apr 2010, 12:15

Strewth. Where do I start!

If you are a person who got into flying to earn heaps of money and do very little you are in the wrong game.

I don't know of a single cadet or 'young' person in QF who has this attitude. (That we actually earn heaps of money and do very little is just an added bonus! :E )

I couldn't think of anything worse than sitting in the back of an A380 for 15 hours listening to some fat, full of his own importance sheltered prick telling me how QF is the best airline with the best pilots and best service in the world...

Neither could I but having gone down the QF route for 15 years now I never actually experienced any of that. I suspect that most of my colleagues haven't either. Those that have understand that those crew members are the exception rather than the rule.

Still, given that you don't work for QF, I'm not sure how you can be so sure that life as a QF driver is what you portray it to be! It's been a while since I was in the back seat but I'd be surprised if many of them are particularly upset by their lot in life.

Interesting psych profile building up by looking at your posts though. Enquiring about DJ employment in 2007 (two posts) and then two posts in the last month being critical of QF. Did you get the direct entry command into DJ or have you recently checked out in command and had to let everyone know by telling us how you're a captain? Or did you miss out on DJ and get into J* instead?

eocvictim

3rd Apr 2010, 12:33

Did I just hear pants unzipping?

adsyj

3rd Apr 2010, 12:44

Newjetpilot

Mate have you had a couple and feeling a bit anti Qantas tonite.

As one of the SO's mentioned although not on the 380 I'll throw my two cents in.

Don't drink and pprune.

PS.
Keg you articulated very well and I wholly concur skipper:ok:

brown_hornet

3rd Apr 2010, 13:09

I couldn't think of anything worse than sitting in the back of an A380 for 15 hours listening to some fat, full of his own importance sheltered prick telling me how QF is the best airline

As keg said, I too am yet to come across this as an SO on the 380! Not even a skinny, sheltered pric* full of his own importance telling me how good our airline is....but according to you that days-a-coming I'm sure:rolleyes:

Until I get to sit next to some guy for four sectors telling me his GA war stories I'll continue to be happy going to church in London on a Sunday:E