Helicopter needed for mercy mission in Fife area.

[fisbangwollop]

Some of you may know me as one of the voices of "Scottish Information"......tonight I recieved a call from a collegue. Sadly one of our Controllers Father has gone missing in the area of the Ochills.....The local Police helicopter has been tasked to look but time is limited and so far no success. Through the course of my job I have made friends with many pilots and today I am asking for a favour.........if anyone reading this from PDG, Scotia or any private owner/operator what we need is someone maybe to offer their service's for an hour just to maybe give a sweep of the area.....it may not sound a lot but I am sure it would help with the grief the family are feeling at this time!........I have a few contact numbers I will try but this post is just incase I have missed anything or anyone.........please PM me or even call on 01292 313474....thanks for your time. Paul.

[boguing]

Copied to one of the 4x4 forums. Good luck.

[fisbangwollop]

The story is here but I understand the family think he may have wandered off into the Ochill hills.
Canal fears over missing man - Boness Today (http://www.bonessjournal.co.uk/news/Canal-fears-over-missing-man.5966666.jp)

[fisbangwollop]

Many thanks for all the PM's and phone calls with offers of help........you all know who you are so a big thankyou....its good to see the pprune family pull together at a time like this and I know the offers of help are well appreciated by the family concerned.

[fisbangwollop]

Appeal for missing businessman | Scotland | STV News (http://news.stv.tv/scotland/149234-appeal-for-missing-businessman/)

[[email protected]]

Paul, whilst I understand your concern, leave the police to get on and do their job with the most appropriate assets. Random searching is pointless and, in poor weather with untrained people, may be more hazardous to all concerned. Information/intelligence about the gentleman's likely movements is the only thing that will help find him and that seems to be exactly what the police are gathering.

Hop he turns up OK.

[ShyTorque]

Crab,

Is there an RAT in place? No, at least, my quick NOTAM search didn't find one.

What airborne assets are in use? Are the police airborne 24/7? You are obviously not.

I think you are being just too precious. If someone can get airborne (in class G airspace), and offer a couple of pairs of eyes, good on them. I'd do it myself if I was in a position to go.

[fisbangwollop]

Crab....leave the police to get on and do their job with the most appropriate assets. Random searching is pointless :confused:


You try telling that to the family............my request on here provided some useful help from people that fully understand the situation and I and the family are grateful for that...!!:cool:

[jivusajob]

I think this is the first time I have ever agreed with anything Crab has said.

However, he makes a valid point here. The Police helicopter crew will take some time to workout where to search based on many intelligence inputs. Random searching is seldom friutful.

In this case though it will not do much harm as long as they do not get in the way of Strathclyde Police ASU trying to carry out a search. This is not likely though as this is not in their force area and unfortunatly they are the only Police ASU in Scotland.

Sorry to hear about this case and hope he is found safe and well

[JTobias]

I would have happily helped, but my machine is in PDG (Wolverhampton) for maintenance. Good luck and I hope he is found safe and well.

Joel

[nigelh]

Typical Crab :ok: You havent lost your touch of alienating all pilots who are not ex mil nvg etc etc If you are given an area to fly over then subject to sensible weather anyone would be capable ...however with all this snow it probably now is not practical . Good luck anyway N

[fisbangwollop]

JIVA.......The Police helicopter crew will take some time to workout where to search based on many intelligence inputs

Police 51 did indeed do a search of the Ochills 4 days ago but time was limited....all the family wanted was a chance to take a second look........today that was achieved so a big thanks to one and all that made this possible....I know the time and effort was appreciated :ok:

[SilsoeSid]

Paul, I hope this ends up well.

Nigelh,

You clearly show your ignorance of this subject matter. I would like to know what qualifies you to 'have a go' at crab@, bearing in mind his profile.

Do you not realise that it is not a simple mission looking for a misper, it involves knowing where/what/how based on the updates and inputs from qualified and experienced people on the ground coordinating the search. Obviously your chipped shoulder obscures your view, as it has nothing to do with being mil/ex-mil. Come on show us your knowledge base, are all police pilots ex-mil?

In your mind it would have nothing to do with communication/coordination of assets both ground and air/thermal cameras/misper procedures and practises, but simply 'have a looksie' and maybe lady luck will shine.

You would have every available ac searching the area, eliminating every blob amongst the snow, what a waste of time and what could a non equipped aircraft really achieve above 500ft?

I could go on, I will.
I wish you had read Pauls last post and the the link he gave.
Appeal for missing businessman | Scotland | STV News (http://news.stv.tv/scotland/149234-appeal-for-missing-businessman/)

In it you would read,
His wife said he was dressed for the conditions.
When he left home, four days ago, he is understood to have told his wife that he intended to catch a train from nearby Polmont Railway Station.
He is a regular hillwalker and climber.
He was also known to walk to work along the Union Canal

Assuming the canal has been walked and this is the int you have to go on....your call!


edit
Oh yes.....and before your Squadron deploys alles uber die platz, experience gave this piece in the article;
police urge hoteliers across the country to check their records to see if Mr Ainsworth, a keen hillwalker, may have checked in or out in recent days.

[s61fun]

Guys,
I think we are all getting our feathers a little rustled over something that we may or may not know too much about. I think as suggested earlier the family were looking for piece of mind and they now have this to a certain extent. What was done or not done or how it was done is not really a concern of anyone but the police, mountain rescue and any other rescuers involved. We all hope this ends well. Lets not have this unfortunate incident degrade into a pprune slagging match.

Safe Flying,

S61fun

[JTobias]

Agreed,

Whether or not the request for assistance was answered, and regardless of whether or not the request was even sensible or appropriate, in times of urgency you will try anything - and there is nothing wrong with that.

If I could have done I would have helped and many people would say that the efforts would almost certainly have been wasted, however, the family would have at least felt there was another chance of a happy ending.

I'm certain the Emergency Services were doing all they could but there is no harm in looking at other avenues at times like this.

Let's hope there is a happy ending.

Joel:ok:

[fisbangwollop]

Just to put the record straight and maybe in an attempt to stop any mud slinging.:}

I posted this post not as an average poster on the street....For the past 38 years I have worked in Air Traffic control, for 15 of those years I have worked in a search and rescue environment that has helped me understand how the system works!!:confused:

I was asked to help as through my present job at "Scottish Information" I have made some very good friends in the light aviation sector...a few who are owner operators of helo type aircraft. The missing person is the Father in law of one of our ATC centres young controllers and his "watch" wanted to be seen to do something to help....clutching at straws maybe, but well worth a shot.

At no time by the authorities has this been a search and rescue mission it has only been treated by the police as a missing person enquiry hense the reason I guess there has been no military involvement through RCC.

Before you all continue to throw mud at each other dont forget that most of us Air Traffikers are frequent user's of PPRUNE and hence it is possible those closely affected by this may read this post!!:=

Finally I will state again a huge thank you to those of you that rallied the troops to help....you know who you are and we will be in debt to you for ever......:D:D:D

Now I must head off and do some air traffiking!! :cool::cool::cool:

[g0lfer]

FBW

Most human beings worth a light would applaud you for your action, I certainly do and I wish I had been nearer to you to be of assistance. It is in your nature as an ATC officer to help people and you will just have to ignore the stupid, mindless and selfish comments made by Crab and his mate. Keep doing what you are doing and I hope it ends with a favourable result. I hope Crab never needs your or ATC's help to save his arse!

[nigelh]

Silsoe ....i assume "misper" is what the "experts" call a missing person :rolleyes: I was not referring to all police pilots , just Crab , who is obviously so very ex mil ,regarding all other forms of pilot as unqualified !! I would be very pleased to have another pair of eyes ( even unqualified ones ) looking for me if i was missing on a hill etc also in the past even as a civilian i have been asked by atc to look for an accident site on a hill and was happy to help.

nigelh,

Your desire to continue your misguided criticism of crab, who is currently on detachment to the Falklands, has gone beyond what is reasonable. Your other posts have been deleted: I suggest that you stick to the thread subject if you want to contribute further to this discussion.

Senior Pilot

[ShyTorque]

Nigelh,

Crab isn't ex-mil!

As for tar, all being brushed with the same ... please do note that not all ex-mil pilots hold the same views! :ouch:

[SilsoeSid]

Paul, in no way am I condemning your request, in fact think it is indeed a reasonable one.

There is of course no problem at all in anyone in the area giving a lookout. The problem as far as I see it would be the possibility of some flyers seeing it as a justifiable reason to bend a few rules and while doing that confusing any other 'searchers' who may think these aircraft are officially involved in the search and want to get in contact with them directly.

I really cannot see what Nigel has got his head on fire for;

crab@
Paul, whilst I understand your concern, leave the police to get on and do their job with the most appropriate assets. Random searching is pointless and, in poor weather with untrained people, may be more hazardous to all concerned. Information/intelligence about the gentleman's likely movements is the only thing that will help find him and that seems to be exactly what the police are gathering.

Nigelh
Typical Crab :ok: You havent lost your touch of alienating all pilots who are not ex mil nvg etc etc If you are given an area to fly over then subject to sensible weather anyone would be capable ...however with all this snow it probably now is not practical .

Where do you get the ex-mil pilots thing from?
Who is actually operating with NVG in the civvy world? (leading question)
Random searching IS pointless.
In this poor weather, untrained/unpractised people WILL be more hazardous.
Information/Intelligence IS the only thing that will help find him.

Nigelh;

You really like showing how ignorant you are and have a burning desire to continue this thread in the tone that you created.
Silsoe ....i assume "misper" is what the "experts" call a missing person :rolleyes: I was not referring to all police pilots , just Crab , who is obviously so very ex mil ,regarding all other forms of pilot as unqualified !! I would be very pleased to have another pair of eyes ( even unqualified ones ) looking for me if i was missing on a hill etc also in the past even as a civilian i have been asked by atc to look for an accident site on a hill and was happy to help.
That's what the official abbreviation for a missing person is.
Crab@ is not a Police pilot, nor is he ex-mil.
Not all Police pilots are ex-mil.
Well done on helping out....above 500ft, aware of all the dangers of mountain/hill flying while still flying the aircraft safely!

What is the difference betweeen qualified and qualified, in your eyes? There is a difference in training and experience though!


Golfer,
It is in your nature as an ATC officer to help people and you will just have to ignore the stupid, mindless and selfish comments made by Crab and his mate.
And what do you think crab does and what do you think I'd be doing?
I hope Crab never needs your or ATC's help to save his arse!
Apart from being a most disgusting comment to make, I think you'll find crab@ would be the one risking his neck to do the saving, as he does every duty day!

[[email protected]]

Just to clarify - my comments on this thread have nothing to do with being mil but everything to do with being a Search and Rescue pilot - the clue is in the Search part of the title as we do rather a lot of it, especially for missing persons in bad weather overland.

As any police pilot will tell you (they do a shedload of searching as well) you can actually see very little from a helicopter, even with the addition of FLIR/TV, NVG et al - and the best technique is to have good information/intel to make the search area as small as possible - then you can concentrate on searching that small area thoroughly.

You can make yourself feel better by tooling along searching miles of countryside if you like but your probability of detection (yes is is scientific and mathematic) is so low as to be pointless.

The first thing you need is an accurate description of the misper, including colour/type of clothing - the next is the likely route, then you look at the mental state of the misper (self-harmer, depressed, alzheimers etc) then the last known position, any favourite places, time of day. weather etc etc the list is endless.

The Police will have already done this and allocated a POLSA (search coordinator) who will task appropriate assets (ground and air as required) and also look at 'pinging' the mispers mobile to help.

A great deal of thought and planning goes into searching to ensure it is done as carefully, methodically and efficiently as possible - only those who have never done it would assume just getting untrained people airborne in a random fashion would actually help matters.

It is tragic when someone close disappears but the harsh facts are that a. accidents happen and b. sometimes people disappear deliberately.

I remain hopeful in a happy outcome to this situation but don't slag me off for offering a professional opinion on what is a professional forum.

[SilsoeSid]

Nigel,

I suggest you checkout the Rotorheads Calendar for October 2009.
:ok:;)

SS

[swordfling]

There appears to be an organisation who do exactly that... perhaps they could help?

Sky Watch Civil Air Patrol (http://www.skywatchcivilairpatrol.org.uk/)

Hope it turns out well.

[nigelh]

Crab ...I apologise , there was no offence meant and i hope you have good time in the Falklands . In shall confine my criticism / Banter with Mil pilots to face to face in future !! I do still think there is an unused resource of pilots stooging along certain routes who could be asked to look out for a misper ( and they would not need to be above 500 if flying over walking territory )
ps Silsoe ...cool down , its only a commercial ....

[SilsoeSid]

nigelhps Silsoe ...cool down , its only a commercial ....

Unfortunately Nigelh, for some of us it isn't. :ugh:

(Checkout January 2009 calendar)

[iainms]

Who is doing SAR in the Falklands, mil or civ contract ?

[GLGNDB]

RAF provide and operate SAR in the Falklands.

[MightyGem]

Random searching IS pointless.
That's what we try and tell our control rooms, but they still tell us to go. :ugh:

[[email protected]]

If offering advice to let the Police get on with their job (my first post) is an anally complex post then I am guilty as charged.

If then explaining some of the realities concerning searching after lots of unwarranted personal attacks (my second post) is anally complex then again I am gulity as charged.

This is a professional pilots forum and all of us who do searching as part of our job seem to be in agreement and at odds with those that don't - make your own mind up as to whether we are full of ourselves or just trying to give others a professional's viewpoint of an emotive situation.

[Bronx]

crab

I agree searching by untrained volunteers won't be as effective as by the professionals, but what's the harm of them trying?
Or other helicopter pilots keeping a lookout for the missing man if their route takes them through the area?
:confused:

[gedney]

Bronx asks "I agree searching by untrained volunteers won't be as effective as by the professionals, but what's the harm of them trying?"

How about this as an answer?

Lynx crash ruled an accident (http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/news/Coroner-rules-Lynx-crash-accident/article-753288-detail/article.html)

The guys in this crash were no doubt a very capable crew, but SAR wasn't their core business and it bit them on the arse. Searching by untrained volunteers is, I'm afraid, likely to be fruitless (as it can be when conducted by trained crews), and as evidenced here can be fraught with difficulty and danger

[John R81]

Gedney - you may be right, but the Lynx crash you reference does not support an argument that untrained people are at risk - or at any more risk than when they are flying for some other purpose. Reading the link, there is no conclusion as to why the crash happened. A bit of a waste citing that one, I thought.

[ShyTorque]

The Navy Lynx accident occurred overwater, at night so perhaps not really relevant; it sounds like that crew possibly suffered loss of spatial awareness and loss of control in the dark.

Speaking as a military trained, ex-SAR pilot and ex-chief pilot of a UK police ASU, I still think it would do no harm for anyone airborne in the area to go and have a look, provided that the presence of their aircraft did not hinder either a police or SAR helicopter already on scene, or be flown in a manner in which it would interfere with a ground search party.

It sounds to me that in this sad case no "official" aircraft would be in the area.

As a police helicopter pilot I remember being stood down from a prolonged night search, for an old man suffering from Alzheimer's, who had wandered off late one freezing cold afternoon in the winter. Unfortunately he was later found in a ditch, just outside of the large area we had searched, but he had already long perished from hypothermia. Despite his sad demise, the relatives were grateful because it was a relief for his body to be found; at least they had closure.

[forget]

there are a couple of people on here who have rather over inflated opinions of themselves, not naming any names, but im sure in this thread its obvious!

Knock knock. :hmm:

[[email protected]]

OK I'll try again - what does the fact that the police helo had conducted a search and there was no SAR helo tasked tell you?

Shy -your caveats about involvement are unlikely to be met - even if there is no police or SAR heli aircraft to conflict with, is the 'unofficial' helicopter going to be flown safely in poor weather whilst conducting any form of meaningful search?

If it is single pilot there is no way that any searching can be conducted without seriously compromising lookout - if there is more than one crew it helps but if they see something, what do they do? They could land, if conditions permit and either find nothing or a casualty who needs urgent medical care - do they then take him to hospital or dial 999? That is the best option - if they can't land, they can dial 999 and divert ground resources who are searching in the right area to a wild goose chase in the wrong one. Please tell me how any of this is productive.

Worst of all they could break the first rule of first aid and become casualties themselves either from CFIT or whiteout on landing and need rescuing - again diverting vital resources from their original task.

The attitude that doing something is better than nothing is often flawed and only goes to salve the conscience of the person who undertakes such actions. I maintain my position that letting the police get on with their job was and is the best course of action but those like ironchefllay clearly know best so I will leave him to the moral high ground.

[iainms]

So, lets all do nothing :confused:

[ShyTorque]

Crab, we'll just have to disagree.

As I said, if I was in a position to help, I would have done. Your over-patronising generalisation would include pilots such as myself.

You perhaps fail to understand that just because a pilot isn't sitting in a helicopter with RAF RESCUE or POLICE written on the side, he/she isn't necessarily a knuckle-dragging, incompetent idiot, unable to fly safely or make airmanship decisions without "official" help or guidance. No-one is sanctioning any pilot taking part in unsafe operations, either by flying beyond their experience, flying in met conditions beyond their abilities, failing to take along a second pair of eyes to do the searching, or anything else.

Don't forget it's Class G airspace out there and many civvie pilots have flown in various roles for many years without the advantage of airspace protection, such as an RA(T).

If there is no other asset available, why should any pilot, be it PPL, CPL or ATPL holder, be told by someone not directly involved himself that he should not offer his services? There is nothing to prevent anyone requesting AIS to issue a NOTAM, btw. In this case, ATC would be very keen to offer every assistance possible.

If a member of the public out went out walking in the hills (properly experienced and equipped for the conditions, of course) to look for this unfortunate old fellow and spotted something, such as an item of clothing down a ravine, that warranted further investigation, the police ASU would react and they would undoubtedly be as pleased as anyone to find a misper, at least the unit I ran would have been; even if the news for the family was the worst.

What is the difference to someone doing the same by air? Nowt.

If it was my old man out there, I'd do anything I could to search for him however low the statistical chance of finding him actually was; in the same circumstances you might even do the same. Both my own parents are lying together under the snow on the side of a hill, but at least, having had the advantage of a proper funeral we know exactly which formal plot they occupy.

"Any road up", you'll probably be a civvie one day yourself and then hopefully you'll see the boot on the other foot doesn't necessarily have a hole in it.

In your position, my professional advice would be "Yes, go for it, but please think about it carefully in advance, organise your flight properly, don't push your luck in any way and don't put yourself or others at risk".

[Scott Diamond]

Couldn't webe respectful and keep this relevant to the discussion? That of a missing person and an appeal....

Please, make another thread for your debate - I came to see if there had been any advance on the search however can hardly find any news due to your drivel of bull****.

[DeltaFoxy]

Hope all goes well, please let us know when he is found

[fisbangwollop]

Thanks to you all so far for your inputs good or bad........as for news no news as yet but will post should I hear anything.........:uhoh:

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

fisbang did the right thing asking for help, but the best way for people to help is get out on foot and have a look. Borrow a dog if you don't have one cause they are always the best search tool as previously stated the helicopter is not always the best tool in the box.

If you have a heli please land it get out and have a look. Untrained inexperienced searching pilots will cause more grief and if a crash happens then the resources will be dealing with that and not the original task.

Even the best get sucked into the moment and a small loss of spatial awareness will catch you out very quickly.

[fisbangwollop]

Sadly I have heard today that the body of my colleuges Father in Law has been found :{

BBC News - Body found in missing man search (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/8527950.stm)


Many many thanks to all of you that offered both help and support....I know the family really appreciated the help that was indeed given..:D:D

Many thanks again.

[ShyTorque]

fisbangwollop,

My sincere commiserations. Sorry I couldn't help and sorry if my "drivel of bull****", which was offered as support for the issue, caused you further upset.

[SilsoeSid]

Fishbangwallop,

My sincerest commiserations to Andrews' family and all that knew him.

TT

[[email protected]]

fisbangwallop - my condolences to the family.

[John R81]

Very sorry to hear that this is the outcome. My thoughts with the family.

John