Helicopter in the ME...

[jetopa]

Dear helicopter guys (and girls),

somebody asked me about my opinion about which helicopter to buy for a very warm and moist climate (elevation: SL) with flights to and from higher elevations nearby where it is rather dry. Hot and high performance is to be considered.

Since I am and airplane driver and don't pretend to know anything about these scary things with rotors on top, I am asking you for any expertise on that.

I guess, from what I read, a helicopter driven by 2 turbines is a must and the cabin size of an Augusta 109 or Sikorsky 76 seems to be appropriate. And it would be an advantage to have actual operational experience on the Arabian Peninsula.

Don't ask me how serious the guy is - but he is loaded with money, that's for sure and that's a good start as well.

Thank you a lot for your input!

Best regards


jetopa

[Ned-Air2Air]

If he is in the Middle East then I would also certainly take into consideration the customer support of the contenders. :ok:

[bolkow]

Two engines does not always and neccessarily equate to greater lift. Not suggesting he buys it, but does'nt the Lama (single turbine) lift the equivalent of its own full weight?

[Garfs]

Two engines does not always and neccessarily equate to greater lift

Agreed. Out here in Malaysia (where its pretty warm and humid) drivers I have spoken to say EC-135's with 3 pax seem to struggle on take off whereas a B206 Jet Ranger seems to manage with no problems carrying the same load.

[spinwing]

Mmmm ...

Need a bit more info re where exactly he wishes to operate etc ... before informed advice may be given ...

Cheers :E

[XV666]

driven by 2 turbines is a must and the cabin size of an Augusta 109 or Sikorsky 76 seems to be appropriate

The cabin sizes of these two are significantly different: as an indication, the Agusta A109S Grand can take two rows of 3 pax facing each other with legs intertwined, whilst the S76 can take up to three rows of 4 pax each, or a VIP fit of two armchairs plus a 3/4 place bench plus bar!

The mark of type will also be important. The A109S is vastly superior in performance to the A109C, and the S76C (or variants) will be a different kettle of crustaceans to the 76A.

[hueyracer]

I had and i will always prefer a Huey......

Wether you choose a Bell 205 or a Bell 212 (or even a 412)-you will be satisfied......

Before starting a discussion-that´s my opinion-and i prefer the "old" helicopters more than these new, modern "flying computers".....

[ka26]

Agreed!!! Old helicopter are much better than the new flying computer!!! (personal opinion) analogic instruments are better than Glass Cockpits!!!
We are still in time to try old helicopters. After 10 years maybe it will not be possible anymore :)

[bolkow]

regarding the newer computer helicopters, I will never forget reading about the Irish Air Corps and their acquisition some 20 + years ago of five dauphines for air sea rescue, because they were a one off they were expensive if anything went amiss, but on one occasion they were were having difficuties with response times with one of the machines because it was taking the on board computer 30 minutes to come on line after start up!!!!!!
Thats what concerns more more than anything else about the toys with the latest computer gadgets.

[chcoffshore]

analogic instruments are better than Glass Cockpits


I scanned the dials for the first 10 years of my flying career! Now i am on glass i will never go back!:eek:

[Non-PC Plod]

If he's loaded with money, there is a VIP AW139 for sale in Belgium for about half the cost of a brand new one. That would do the job!

[Efirmovich]

Why is everyone so wary of modern machines ?....... On the way home tonight you will check the news and weather on your Blackberry, then in the car you will no doubt key in the sat nav put the Ipod into the fully intigrated sound system, get home and put on the Plasma TV and never once think any of them will not boot up ! It's all the same technology just more expensive for aviation.....
Glass is the future ! :ok:

E.

[Ian Corrigible]

Old helicopter are much better than the new flying computer!!! (personal opinion) analogic instruments are better than Glass Cockpits!!!
Come on, be honest now: is that you, Frank Robinson? :E

I/C

[victor papa]

Sorry, but if what you listed are the major concerns and you want to fly 5 pax or less there is 1 helicopter that thrives in those circumstances with lots of power to spare and in my experience extremely reliable in hot and high and humid conditions-AS350B3+:ok:. Hot and high she out performs most light twins on payload(real hot and high). She has only 1 engine but comes from a family that has accumulated over 20 mil hours that has to be taken in to account when we talk reliability and most of those hours in the worse places you can think off. If your friend wants a twin, look carefully at the OGE graphs and remember no use you look at both engines operitive otherwise you are flying a single for all practical purposes. One also, as mentioned before, can not just talk of 109 or 135. Their performance vary big time between the variants. As mentioned with the 109, you can not compare a 135 with a 135N2/P2.

[bolkow]

If I was downed in the sea this eveing with the temperatures, and there was one of each type of chopper scrambling to get me, I'd choose the older model. No telling what can happen to computers in this cold, and with all the sitting in inclement settings, cold hangars etc etc. Naw, I'd go for proven older technology.

[Efirmovich]

And if you did make it to the hospital would you chose the stethescope and chloroform over the modern life support unit ? :ugh:

E.

[starflex3]

I agree with Victory Papa.
I fly a S-76 A++ in the SAR role and on a Hot day and 100 ft AMSL the thing struggles big time!
The AS 350 B3 would out perform it every way except cabin room.
Think carefully about what you are using it for, and if a twin is really necessary, if it is then make sure you get one with big engines!:ok:

[hueyracer]

And if you did make it to the hospital would you chose the stethescope and chloroform over the modern life support unit ?

Not adressed to me-but i would prefer the best....but that doesn´t mean automatically the modern stuff.....

Acupuncture, massage, traditional (eastern) medicine.....old things are often more reliable than all this new "itchy gear"...

[jetopa]

Everyone: thank you for your valuable input so far! And I will mention this AW139 in Belgium, of course. Chopper would be based in JED, KSA with flights to destinations nearby, sometimes at higher elevations @ temp. of > 45-50 deg. C in the summer. That's as much as I know right now. No Government directly involved, to my knowledge.

If there are more questions, I will come back in this forum.

I will forward the messages to the potential buyer, but - as I have seen it many times in Aviation - the eyes are sometimes bigger than the wallets are deep...

[Shawn Coyle]

I'd also look seriously at the Bell 429 - huge cabin, great performance (hover and cruise) and very smooth. PM me if you'd like my pilot review article from Vertical.

[LadyGrey]

I will forward the messages to the potential buyer, but - as I have seen it many times in Aviation - the eyes are sometimes bigger than the wallets are deep...Don't ask me how serious the guy is - but he is loaded with money, that's for sure and that's a good start as well.Strange, anyway...:hmm:

Hello,

we did quite some research in November and December for a very small VIP Ops.

We flew the Grand, the 139, the Sikorsky 76S++ and had a close look on the new Bell 429.

We went for the 139 because of performance, long range and VIP Cabin space ( 4Pax layout) Sometimes size does matter....:ok:

Dunno about SA, but there are quite a lot of 139 flying in the UAE, so should not be a problem maintenancewise, although we will not be based there.

Could give you the (hopefully very good) advice, to fly all those types ( as passengers, of course:)) You will see and feel!! the difference.

Best of luck
Peter

Just forgot.....had a close look at the new Bell 429, but some wise guy told me....never buy the A-Model.....:=.

[Shawn Coyle]

Being intimately familiar with the Bell 427, I'd say the 429 was the 'B' model. Much improved.

[LadyGrey]

Good Morning

Sorry, did not want to sound "negative" on the 429!

But it is still brand new, got certificated only a couple of month´s ago and I don´t think, there is one flying in Europe already (please correct me, if I´m wrong)

This is what I received from a very experienced pilot

Hi, Peter!

Just had a quick look at the Bell 429 info and from their published brochure comes the following.....

Max Endurance is 4.2 hours. This, however, is at a 60 knot loiter speed and while it may of some interest to those who maight wish to loiter somewhere for possible police/Search missions, it is of little or no value to you.

One chart gives fluel flow information from which I take the following example. Long Range Cruise Speed of 120 knots at Max Take Off weight of 3175kgs at a typical helicopter combination of 11'C and 2000ft draws fuel at the rate of 230kgs/hr. With a 20 minute reserve (I always preferred 30 when aiming at a landing point a long way away), that gives 2 hours and 45 mins flying but at a speed of 120 knots. Distance traveeled in still air comes to 330nm.

Bring the speed in the same conditions to 137 knots (typical cruise speed in the A109E Power) and the burn goes up to 270kgs/hr. At that burn it'll fly for 2 hours and 20 mins flying to cover a distance in still air of 320nm.

Their Std configuration weighs 2007kgs.

Assuming a VIP/Corporate fit with some nice cabinetry and a few gadgets as well as auxiliary fuel tank adds another 150 kgs to that, then with full fuel of 750kgs, the available space for passengers and crew, by weight, is 275kgs.

I'm 90kgs, two of me would be 180kgs and.........whoops, the remaining 95 kgs allows the Boss to travel without his good lady, and he can't bring any bags with him!!!! Of course, one pilot frees up another 90kgs so Mrs. Boss COULD travel, and, if she's a trim lady, they might be able to bring some hand luggage.

I'm reminded of a story I heard from an aircraft salesman in the UK years ago when he made a little fun of his colleague at a meeting we were having.

"I know he's lying cos his lips are moving!"

Have fun with Bell!!

Anyway, we decided on another brand, so, to be honest, we don´t care about the Bell anymore

Thank you
Peter

[Rotormech]

For 5 paks or less I would recommend the Eurocopter AS350B3+ for a good all round machine. The replacement for the Lama.